Further to my thread, asking for help turning my character concept into a workable character, I think that I might have come up with a character that fits most of what I discussed. I have only one small problem; the character's race is, Wood Elf. Normally, that would not be a problem, but the character that I am creating is supposed to have demonic ancestry.
Can, Elves, have a demonic ancestor in the same way that humans can?
Thanks,
Forge XD
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
The TL;DR Devils and Demons are different. Elf demons: there's lore for it. If your DM allows it, you can run with it as far as custom legacy allows or adapt some of the homebrew out there.
I'm not sure what you mean by "in the same way humans can." Are you mistaking the Tieflings as a sign of abyssal legacy? Tieflings are the result of a human family tree's "infernal legacy" (sometimes there actually is an infernal parent, but it doesn't have to be the case, it could just be the result of a family history of trafficking and dealing with devils). There isn't an officially published Demon influenced equivalent to the Tiefling, though a lot of people will reskin Tieflings to reflect abyssal heritage.
All that said, in 2E (when Demons and Devils were called something else), you had the Fey'Ri in the forgotten realms. Basically during the Crown Wars (epic series of civil wars among the elves), one high elf house either bred or created elf/demon hybrids in an effort to create super soldiers. The rest of elf kind thought this was a bad idea and destroyed, imprisoned, and otherwise chased into hiding the members of the house and their demon/elf kin. I don't know if the Fey'Ri pop up in other editions. I have found some homebrew builds for Fey'Ri and actually have one in one of my games. There are some available as public homebrew here on D&D Beyond but the one I really liked and seemed most inline with what 2E presented (and most balanced) I had to port over from DnDWiki, I can link it to you over private message if you're interested, it's got a basic lore entry and four subraces.
At the end of the day, you get to do what your DM allows you to do. The options I've layed out are not in any official sourcebooks, aside from custom lineage, so it depends on your DM's comfort zone.
Yes, but that particular type of elf is called a daemonfey and they typically only come from House Dlardrageth in the Forgotten Realms. However, daemonfey from other houses are usually called fey'ri according to older editions. Fey'ri are functionally tieflings, as far as race goes.
Thanks for clarifying the lore. So you'd run Fey'Ri as reskinned Tieflings? That's an efficient, no sweat option, and I could see many DMs going "sure" since in that case we're taking something that works RAW and just tweaking the backstory.
However, I've seen other builds that balance the fiendish traits with the elf traits ... one of which has a sub race where the wings aren't vestigial (a leveled trait that starts with jump and ends with flight). I think if the DMs open to those, those provide something "new" to game instead of "Ok, you're a Tiefling, but an Elf, got it."). Oh, I don't know if it's in the official lore, but my adopted homebrew grants Fey'Ri "Elven Mask" in that they can assume the appearance of a normal elf version of themself.
If a player came to me, I'd probably present the Tiefling and reskin if we wanted to be quick; but I'd more likely encourage custom lineage or the homebrews.
So I don't come across as coy, Here's where I found Fey'Ri to my game's liking.
I don't know where my campaign will go, but I've toyed with getting a PdF of the 2E Hellgate Keep module as fodder if we ever decide to trace this character's back story.
This is interesting, because I was planning on just taking the Woof Elf, for my race, and then flavouring the Gloom Stalker subclass, as being a manifestation of their demonic heritage. What that would mean is; as the character levelled up, more and more of their demonic blood would awaken inside of them, giving them an even greater affinity for the shadows, darkness and twilight, and allowing them to do things that others could not.
Hiding in plain sight, as an example, or becoming a dread ambusher, or having primal awareness and giving them heightened senses.
Here are four character sheets for the character that I was thinking of. I have created them at levels one, four, ten and twenty.
What I find interesting about the replies that you have all given me so far, is that I could choose a Tiefling for my race, and get some actual fiendish abilities. Although I do like the idea of the subclass representing the characters demonic bloodline and the abilities they gain from it.
Anyway; I would love to hear what you think of the character sheets that I have linked to, they are all the same character, just at different levels. Also; any other thoughts, comments, opinions or constructive criticism that you might have, will be graciously received.
Cheers
Forge XD
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A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Tieflings, aasimar, and genasi aren't explicitly "humans with extra-planar bloodlines", they're "*mortals* with extra-planar bloodlines."
In D&D, elves are still mortal despite their long lifespans. I see no reason an elf who's ancestors mingled with devils wouldn't have a chance of being born as a tiefling.
This is 5e so you have a lot of flexibility as far as what kind of character you want to make.
It's fine to have a plan as to where you want your character to go, but it's best to just play and evolve your character as you experience the particular game you're in.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Tieflings, aasimar, and genasi aren't explicitly "humans with extra-planar bloodlines", they're "*mortals* with extra-planar bloodlines."
You're 1/3 correct as far as the written description of the races in the relevant WotC sourcebooks. While Genasi have broad ranged mortal origins, the descriptions of both Tieflings and Aasimar are explicitly human. I'd cut and paste, but if you doubt me you can click that section on "rules" and "races" accessible in the banner at the top of this page.
How crossable elves may be with other planar entities is a call for individual games. I think the way elves are presented in MToF gives reason to see some of the connections Elves have beyond the material plane may make them incompatible with extra-planar entities ... but the FR does have the Fey'Ri in its lore (I don't know it well enough to see if it was simply a breeding program or product of true consorting/relationships or more a magical generation project). The half-elf existence has always been to human's "versatility" credit but is also treated in a lot of lore as something of a sad affair, so to speak. But again, anyone's game can mix or set limits as they want, as below:
In D&D, elves are still mortal despite their long lifespans. I see no reason an elf who's ancestors mingled with devils wouldn't have a chance of being born as a tiefling.
Devils and demons are different, if you want to be broad, call em fiends (and how come Yuggoloths and Hags don't get any of the love, so to speak, in the lineage conversations? ... I think some sort of attempted Hag given back to a mortal realm would be a compelling origin).
As discussed, with the custom lineage system (either within a race or the truly custom option) everyone's right that it's possible to gin up mechanical support (if you feel you need it) for whatever backstory to your lineage you want. As long as you and the DM agree it makes sense for your game world. OP asked if their elf can have demon ancestry. I offered the Fey'Ri/Daemonfae (once reminded they were called that) as an example as to how you could find lore precedent as well as a homebrew racial option, pushing the idea a bit. However, given the OP's followup, it seems abyssal heritage isn't so much what the character wants, they want to be a Wood Elf; but explain their Gloomstalker power set as the result of an abyssal legacy. As a DM I'd be cool with that, might even give the DM some fodder for the campaign down the line. So I think the ask was more lore/story oriented than "build" oriented.
Fiendish lineage can be a lot of things, actual consensual, or force ritual congress between a human (or mortal) and a fiend ... but I tend to go broader on what the contact meant. I usually contend that the family had a deal with the devil, usually for some sort of prosperity, and a generation or two later a Tieflings arrives in the family tree to show the world where the prosperity actually came from.
That's lore interpretation though, which informs but doesn't drive my game. If in my game you want to be human but instead of parents some extraplanar deity made you out of clay and left you a full grown adult laying on a beach, sure, why not. Maybe you do in fact have a divine purpose the game will reveal. Maybe the entity just likes playing with action figures and misplaced you. _Or_ running with the action figure thought, the entity acquired a better version of you with better kung-fu grip, a cooler camo (or lamer neon) outfit, and accessories that stay in your hands more readily. Whenever the entity locates you, they will pit you against the next gen you. Critical hits can range from loss of an opposable thumb, limbs, bisection at the waist or heads being torn off.
What? This game's being produced by Hasbro, you all. This could happen.
This is 5e so you have a lot of flexibility as far as what kind of character you want to make.
It's fine to have a plan as to where you want your character to go, but it's best to just play and evolve your character as you experience the particular game you're in.
Right. It's fine the Wood Elf to have "abyssal ancestry" as part of their back story, and presuming your Wood Elf Ranger does go Gloomstalker use that back story as a way to articulate why you have Gloomstalker's power set. If we're talking a level one character, I'd just leave it as Wood Elf with some demonic ancestry in their lineage. Leave it at that and use it to further enrich later story elements if they make sense.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I’d certainly allow it if the reason or backstory was good enough/made sense regardless of whether official content says you can or can’t. So maybe just talk to the DM. Demons be crazy in this magical world y’all, think of it from the demonic perspective instead of the elf perspective, I’d say a strong enough demon is certainly more than capable of hijacking a bloodline.
So I read a little bit of your backstory and this goes against what you created already in your other thread but just another idea to float around: If you’re just reflavoring a subclass it wouldn’t even have to be a genetic thing then. It could just be that an actual demon itself is lying dormant inside you, waiting to gain enough strength back (leveling up) until it is done using you and expels itself into the world to unleash destruction. Certainly would be a good way to create a personal villain. I suppose that could be achieved through the bloodline though too.
Anyways, I think your idea is pretty cool. Hopefully your DM will agree.
I’d certainly allow it if the reason or backstory was good enough/made sense regardless of whether official content says you can or can’t. So maybe just talk to the DM. Demons be crazy in this magical world y’all, think of it from the demonic perspective instead of the elf perspective, I’d say a strong enough demon is certainly more than capable of hijacking a bloodline.
So I read a little bit of your backstory and this goes against what you created already in your other thread but just another idea to float around: If you’re just reflavoring a subclass it wouldn’t even have to be a genetic thing then. It could just be that an actual demon itself is lying dormant inside you, waiting to gain enough strength back (leveling up) until it is done using you and expels itself into the world to unleash destruction. Certainly would be a good way to create a personal villain. I suppose that could be achieved through the bloodline though too.
Anyways, I think your idea is pretty cool. Hopefully your DM will agree.
Thanks for your reply. My initial concept in the first thread was a bit scattered because it was me trying to work out the concept that I had in mind. In this thread, the concept is more refined, to where it has a focus and isn’t just all over the place, and I have some concept character sheets (which I may keep, but might alter slightly) as well.
I like your idea of the “demons” within but I’m not allowed to play an actual demon because the DM doesn’t want an actual chaotic evil being running around in her game. She is fine with my character being a distant descendant of a demonic lineage though, so I am trying to get it to work from that angle.
Also, as a general update, my DM has said she will let me be a distant descendant of a bloodline of Daemonfey. Over thousands of years the demon blood of my characters clan has been watered down as they had children with other elves, including wood elves, of which my character is one.
So although they look like an Elf, my character and their clan, are to other Elves, what Tieflings are to humans. As descendants of Daemonfey though, they were hunted by other Elves, who sought to eradicate what they saw as abominations. For this reason very few of my characters clan survive, and my character themselves was quite literally raised by wolves Romulus and Remus fashion. Which ties into to my characters personality traits, of:
”I was quite literally raised by wolves, and have the table manners to prove it!”
This, along with my characters demonic blood also explains why they have such a deep affinity for dark side of nature. They know better than to ascribe sentiments such as bounty or beauty to the deep twilight forests of their youth. There is quite literally a 1000 ways to die out there in the wilderness, and it is only through strength, wit and force of will that they have survived. As the old saying goes though, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, and the struggle has certainly made them stronger .... awakening their dormant demonic blood and setting them down the path of becoming a deadly shadowy hunter, that can strike without being seen and vanish into the shadows of twilight, without a trace.
Abilities mechanically represented by the gloom stalker subclass.
I like your idea of the “demons” within but I’m not allowed to play an actual demon because the DM doesn’t want an actual chaotic evil being running around in her game. She is fine with my character being a distant descendant of a demonic lineage though
Abilities mechanically represented by the gloom stalker subclass.
So there you go, you have your answer right there. Your DM is fine with your character being a distant descendant of demons and your abilities are represented by your subclass. Seems like a good solution to me.
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Hi,
Further to my thread, asking for help turning my character concept into a workable character, I think that I might have come up with a character that fits most of what I discussed. I have only one small problem; the character's race is, Wood Elf. Normally, that would not be a problem, but the character that I am creating is supposed to have demonic ancestry.
Can, Elves, have a demonic ancestor in the same way that humans can?
Thanks,
Forge XD
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
The TL;DR Devils and Demons are different. Elf demons: there's lore for it. If your DM allows it, you can run with it as far as custom legacy allows or adapt some of the homebrew out there.
I'm not sure what you mean by "in the same way humans can." Are you mistaking the Tieflings as a sign of abyssal legacy? Tieflings are the result of a human family tree's "infernal legacy" (sometimes there actually is an infernal parent, but it doesn't have to be the case, it could just be the result of a family history of trafficking and dealing with devils). There isn't an officially published Demon influenced equivalent to the Tiefling, though a lot of people will reskin Tieflings to reflect abyssal heritage.
All that said, in 2E (when Demons and Devils were called something else), you had the Fey'Ri in the forgotten realms. Basically during the Crown Wars (epic series of civil wars among the elves), one high elf house either bred or created elf/demon hybrids in an effort to create super soldiers. The rest of elf kind thought this was a bad idea and destroyed, imprisoned, and otherwise chased into hiding the members of the house and their demon/elf kin. I don't know if the Fey'Ri pop up in other editions. I have found some homebrew builds for Fey'Ri and actually have one in one of my games. There are some available as public homebrew here on D&D Beyond but the one I really liked and seemed most inline with what 2E presented (and most balanced) I had to port over from DnDWiki, I can link it to you over private message if you're interested, it's got a basic lore entry and four subraces.
At the end of the day, you get to do what your DM allows you to do. The options I've layed out are not in any official sourcebooks, aside from custom lineage, so it depends on your DM's comfort zone.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Yes, but that particular type of elf is called a daemonfey and they typically only come from House Dlardrageth in the Forgotten Realms. However, daemonfey from other houses are usually called fey'ri according to older editions. Fey'ri are functionally tieflings, as far as race goes.
Thanks for clarifying the lore. So you'd run Fey'Ri as reskinned Tieflings? That's an efficient, no sweat option, and I could see many DMs going "sure" since in that case we're taking something that works RAW and just tweaking the backstory.
However, I've seen other builds that balance the fiendish traits with the elf traits ... one of which has a sub race where the wings aren't vestigial (a leveled trait that starts with jump and ends with flight). I think if the DMs open to those, those provide something "new" to game instead of "Ok, you're a Tiefling, but an Elf, got it."). Oh, I don't know if it's in the official lore, but my adopted homebrew grants Fey'Ri "Elven Mask" in that they can assume the appearance of a normal elf version of themself.
If a player came to me, I'd probably present the Tiefling and reskin if we wanted to be quick; but I'd more likely encourage custom lineage or the homebrews.
So I don't come across as coy, Here's where I found Fey'Ri to my game's liking.
I don't know where my campaign will go, but I've toyed with getting a PdF of the 2E Hellgate Keep module as fodder if we ever decide to trace this character's back story.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
This is interesting, because I was planning on just taking the Woof Elf, for my race, and then flavouring the Gloom Stalker subclass, as being a manifestation of their demonic heritage. What that would mean is; as the character levelled up, more and more of their demonic blood would awaken inside of them, giving them an even greater affinity for the shadows, darkness and twilight, and allowing them to do things that others could not.
Hiding in plain sight, as an example, or becoming a dread ambusher, or having primal awareness and giving them heightened senses.
Here are four character sheets for the character that I was thinking of. I have created them at levels one, four, ten and twenty.
Yogi/Yule - Level One.
Yogi/Yule - Level Four.
Yogi/Yule - Level Ten.
Yogi/Yule - Level Twenty.
What I find interesting about the replies that you have all given me so far, is that I could choose a Tiefling for my race, and get some actual fiendish abilities. Although I do like the idea of the subclass representing the characters demonic bloodline and the abilities they gain from it.
Anyway; I would love to hear what you think of the character sheets that I have linked to, they are all the same character, just at different levels. Also; any other thoughts, comments, opinions or constructive criticism that you might have, will be graciously received.
Cheers
Forge XD
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
Tieflings, aasimar, and genasi aren't explicitly "humans with extra-planar bloodlines", they're "*mortals* with extra-planar bloodlines."
In D&D, elves are still mortal despite their long lifespans. I see no reason an elf who's ancestors mingled with devils wouldn't have a chance of being born as a tiefling.
This is 5e so you have a lot of flexibility as far as what kind of character you want to make.
It's fine to have a plan as to where you want your character to go, but it's best to just play and evolve your character as you experience the particular game you're in.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
You're 1/3 correct as far as the written description of the races in the relevant WotC sourcebooks. While Genasi have broad ranged mortal origins, the descriptions of both Tieflings and Aasimar are explicitly human. I'd cut and paste, but if you doubt me you can click that section on "rules" and "races" accessible in the banner at the top of this page.
How crossable elves may be with other planar entities is a call for individual games. I think the way elves are presented in MToF gives reason to see some of the connections Elves have beyond the material plane may make them incompatible with extra-planar entities ... but the FR does have the Fey'Ri in its lore (I don't know it well enough to see if it was simply a breeding program or product of true consorting/relationships or more a magical generation project). The half-elf existence has always been to human's "versatility" credit but is also treated in a lot of lore as something of a sad affair, so to speak. But again, anyone's game can mix or set limits as they want, as below:
Devils and demons are different, if you want to be broad, call em fiends (and how come Yuggoloths and Hags don't get any of the love, so to speak, in the lineage conversations? ... I think some sort of attempted Hag given back to a mortal realm would be a compelling origin).
As discussed, with the custom lineage system (either within a race or the truly custom option) everyone's right that it's possible to gin up mechanical support (if you feel you need it) for whatever backstory to your lineage you want. As long as you and the DM agree it makes sense for your game world. OP asked if their elf can have demon ancestry. I offered the Fey'Ri/Daemonfae (once reminded they were called that) as an example as to how you could find lore precedent as well as a homebrew racial option, pushing the idea a bit. However, given the OP's followup, it seems abyssal heritage isn't so much what the character wants, they want to be a Wood Elf; but explain their Gloomstalker power set as the result of an abyssal legacy. As a DM I'd be cool with that, might even give the DM some fodder for the campaign down the line. So I think the ask was more lore/story oriented than "build" oriented.
Fiendish lineage can be a lot of things, actual consensual, or force ritual congress between a human (or mortal) and a fiend ... but I tend to go broader on what the contact meant. I usually contend that the family had a deal with the devil, usually for some sort of prosperity, and a generation or two later a Tieflings arrives in the family tree to show the world where the prosperity actually came from.
That's lore interpretation though, which informs but doesn't drive my game. If in my game you want to be human but instead of parents some extraplanar deity made you out of clay and left you a full grown adult laying on a beach, sure, why not. Maybe you do in fact have a divine purpose the game will reveal. Maybe the entity just likes playing with action figures and misplaced you. _Or_ running with the action figure thought, the entity acquired a better version of you with better kung-fu grip, a cooler camo (or lamer neon) outfit, and accessories that stay in your hands more readily. Whenever the entity locates you, they will pit you against the next gen you. Critical hits can range from loss of an opposable thumb, limbs, bisection at the waist or heads being torn off.
What? This game's being produced by Hasbro, you all. This could happen.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Right. It's fine the Wood Elf to have "abyssal ancestry" as part of their back story, and presuming your Wood Elf Ranger does go Gloomstalker use that back story as a way to articulate why you have Gloomstalker's power set. If we're talking a level one character, I'd just leave it as Wood Elf with some demonic ancestry in their lineage. Leave it at that and use it to further enrich later story elements if they make sense.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I’d certainly allow it if the reason or backstory was good enough/made sense regardless of whether official content says you can or can’t. So maybe just talk to the DM. Demons be crazy in this magical world y’all, think of it from the demonic perspective instead of the elf perspective, I’d say a strong enough demon is certainly more than capable of hijacking a bloodline.
So I read a little bit of your backstory and this goes against what you created already in your other thread but just another idea to float around: If you’re just reflavoring a subclass it wouldn’t even have to be a genetic thing then. It could just be that an actual demon itself is lying dormant inside you, waiting to gain enough strength back (leveling up) until it is done using you and expels itself into the world to unleash destruction. Certainly would be a good way to create a personal villain. I suppose that could be achieved through the bloodline though too.
Anyways, I think your idea is pretty cool. Hopefully your DM will agree.
Thanks for your reply. My initial concept in the first thread was a bit scattered because it was me trying to work out the concept that I had in mind. In this thread, the concept is more refined, to where it has a focus and isn’t just all over the place, and I have some concept character sheets (which I may keep, but might alter slightly) as well.
I like your idea of the “demons” within but I’m not allowed to play an actual demon because the DM doesn’t want an actual chaotic evil being running around in her game. She is fine with my character being a distant descendant of a demonic lineage though, so I am trying to get it to work from that angle.
Also, as a general update, my DM has said she will let me be a distant descendant of a bloodline of Daemonfey. Over thousands of years the demon blood of my characters clan has been watered down as they had children with other elves, including wood elves, of which my character is one.
So although they look like an Elf, my character and their clan, are to other Elves, what Tieflings are to humans. As descendants of Daemonfey though, they were hunted by other Elves, who sought to eradicate what they saw as abominations. For this reason very few of my characters clan survive, and my character themselves was quite literally raised by wolves Romulus and Remus fashion. Which ties into to my characters personality traits, of:
”I was quite literally raised by wolves, and have the table manners to prove it!”
This, along with my characters demonic blood also explains why they have such a deep affinity for dark side of nature. They know better than to ascribe sentiments such as bounty or beauty to the deep twilight forests of their youth. There is quite literally a 1000 ways to die out there in the wilderness, and it is only through strength, wit and force of will that they have survived. As the old saying goes though, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger, and the struggle has certainly made them stronger .... awakening their dormant demonic blood and setting them down the path of becoming a deadly shadowy hunter, that can strike without being seen and vanish into the shadows of twilight, without a trace.
Abilities mechanically represented by the gloom stalker subclass.
A caffeinated nerd who has played TTRPGs or a number of years and is very much a fantasy adventure geek.
So there you go, you have your answer right there. Your DM is fine with your character being a distant descendant of demons and your abilities are represented by your subclass. Seems like a good solution to me.