This is out of a facebook character optimizing channel I keep tabs on.
The original post:
"Got dealt the worst stat roll I've ever seen and DM won't let us roll again. 14 13 11 9 9 4. What do you even do with that other than cry?"
Various responses:
"Kill it and start over. "
"Just get your character killed as soon as you can."
"Make a deal with your DM talk to them about that you'll try it but if it's not fun you want to reroll it."
"Purposefully get your character killed so you can roll a new one."
"Decide if you want to play with that DM. Someone like that, enjoys controlling his players. Any DM i have played with, would let you reroll."
"If you really want to play with DM and willing to be a little trolly. Charisma 4, talk to EVERYONE. Increase risk of starting a scenario that gets you killed through lack of social ability.
Wisdom 4, make many unwise and dangerous decisions that increase likely hood of fatality.
Intelligence 4, character makes really stupid decisions that quickly lead to their demise.
Better luck on the reroll of a new character."
"4 in charisma and say your character is a huge jerk. Make racial slurs at everyone and get into bar fights. "
"CON 4, and hope to get killed outright in one hit?"
I could go on, but the point has been made beautifully, and finally, by all these power-gamers. The reason people want to use the 4d6 system is to get better stats than the standard array or the 27 point buy. There is no other reason. And if they can't get their way, the idea is to wreck the game for everyone else.
I love the 4d6 system, because it keeps a first level human fighter from being the same as every other first level human fighter. With SA and PB, there's always a best set of ability scores for a powergamer to use and EVERYONE IS THE SAME. Probably never coming back to this thread.
A few, from a nigh-infinite number of counterpoints:
1.) Did the DM insist on 4d6y drop lowest, without giving the player the option of using a fixed stat array? Many DMs do, and players lament low scores because they had no option to take the enforced mediocrity of Standard Array.
2.) Is the player upset over their low numbers, or upset because their numbers are twenty to thirty points below the rest of their table's? If the latter, perhaps the mere existence of their character is already dragging down the table's fun and they're looking for the best out they can.
3.) What other responses did the player get, other than your cherry-picked "MUNCHKINS ARE TERRIBLE! DX" selection of responses? There are ways of playing around a Village Idiot stat array; where were the people suggesting those ways?
4.) You specifically state this is from a character optimization channel. How, and why, does it surprise you that it's populated by optimizers, rather than by the Rules-Lite Narrative Experience(C) sorts you're looking for?
5.) Many people gamble on 4d6kh not to Munchkin The Game Away, but because using an ASI to increase a stat by two points is the most boring possible way to level up a character in all of D&D 5e. It is boring. Players much prefer to make interesting choices for their characters when granted the rare chance to take a feat, but if their numbers are poor to the point of hindering their party and they're playing with a killer DM who refuses to allow them to find, create, barter, or bullshit their way into a more stable position (like, say...you)? They don't get to choose interesting feats that speak to their character's growth and personality, they get to pick a number to increase by 2. Which is not really any different than not gaining a level at all. And since Standard Array is a very poor numeric spread by default...well. Take the chance on 4d6kh and hope.
I could go on, but the point has been made beautifully. One cherry-picked story from a random Facebook feed is barely even an anecdote, let alone Conclusive Proof That All Optimizers Are Evil.
I love the 4d6 system, because it keeps a first level human fighter from being the same as every other first level human fighter. With SA and PB, there's always a best set of ability scores for a powergamer to use and EVERYONE IS THE SAME.
That statement is factually wrong, on every level. A Dex based Champion Fighter will have a totally different focus on their stats than a Str Based Eldritch Knight, or a Samurai that has a secondary focus on Wisdom.
There is one reason, and one reason only: To get better starting stats.
I love the 4d6 system, because it keeps a first level human fighter from being the same as every other first level human fighter. With SA and PB, there's always a best set of ability scores for a powergamer to use and EVERYONE IS THE SAME.
That statement is factually wrong, on every level. A Dex based Champion Fighter will have a totally different focus on their stats than a Str Based Eldritch Knight, or a Samurai that has a secondary focus on Wisdom.
There is one reason, and one reason only: To get better starting stats.
Or interesting stats. I am right, if not specific. If you use SA, all dex champions will have nearly identical stats. So will all samurai. And Str EKs.
A few, from a nigh-infinite number of counterpoints:
1.) Did the DM insist on 4d6y drop lowest, without giving the player the option of using a fixed stat array? Many DMs do, and players lament low scores because they had no option to take the enforced mediocrity of Standard Array.
2.) Is the player upset over their low numbers, or upset because their numbers are twenty to thirty points below the rest of their table's? If the latter, perhaps the mere existence of their character is already dragging down the table's fun and they're looking for the best out they can.
3.) What other responses did the player get, other than your cherry-picked "MUNCHKINS ARE TERRIBLE! DX" selection of responses? There are ways of playing around a Village Idiot stat array; where were the people suggesting those ways?
4.) You specifically state this is from a character optimization channel. How, and why, does it surprise you that it's populated by optimizers, rather than by the Rules-Lite Narrative Experience(C) sorts you're looking for?
5.) Many people gamble on 4d6kh not to Munchkin The Game Away, but because using an ASI to increase a stat by two points is the most boring possible way to level up a character in all of D&D 5e. It is boring. Players much prefer to make interesting choices for their characters when granted the rare chance to take a feat, but if their numbers are poor to the point of hindering their party and they're playing with a killer DM who refuses to allow them to find, create, barter, or bullshit their way into a more stable position (like, say...you)? They don't get to choose interesting feats that speak to their character's growth and personality, they get to pick a number to increase by 2. Which is not really any different than not gaining a level at all. And since Standard Array is a very poor numeric spread by default...well. Take the chance on 4d6kh and hope.
I could go on, but the point has been made beautifully. One cherry-picked story from a random Facebook feed is barely even an anecdote, let alone Conclusive Proof That All Optimizers Are Evil.
If a player feels that much constrained by the Standard Array or 27 point buy that they feel they NEED the "variation" of the 4d6 method, then the player is a bad player. The 27 point buy allows for a near infinite variation in initial stats. And it is fair to all.
Oh, and I do like your clever personal insult. My players don't have to bullshit or barter or whine about their starting stats because they ALL use the 27 point buy, and they then all start at the same level, and can build what they like within that construct, which I have already said allows for near infinite options. Only a weak player would argue otherwise.
I love the 4d6 system, because it keeps a first level human fighter from being the same as every other first level human fighter. With SA and PB, there's always a best set of ability scores for a powergamer to use and EVERYONE IS THE SAME.
That statement is factually wrong, on every level. A Dex based Champion Fighter will have a totally different focus on their stats than a Str Based Eldritch Knight, or a Samurai that has a secondary focus on Wisdom.
There is one reason, and one reason only: To get better starting stats.
Or interesting stats. I am right, if not specific. If you use SA, all dex champions will have nearly identical stats. So will all samurai. And Str EKs.
Nice movement of the goalposts. How about moving them again, when I state that Dex based Champions and Str based Champions, EK"s, and Samurai all have different stats that their Str based counterparts. Your argument is the equivalent of "all Warlocks have a high CHA", except weaker.
I swear the scores people are expecting on to be 'viable' as a character have been creeping up over time. I don't understand the expectation to be starting with amazing scores. Part of what I love about DnD is the character getting gradually stronger over time, going from zero to hero. Feels a bit pointless when you're practically demigods at level 1.
I swear the scores people are expecting on to be 'viable' as a character have been creeping up over time. I don't understand the expectation to be starting with amazing scores. Part of what I love about DnD is the character getting gradually stronger over time, going from zero to hero. Feels a bit pointless when you're practically demigods at level 1.
Much of the recent abomination that shall not be named was designed for creating power-gaming stats. The 4d6, drop the lowest results, method results in an expected value of 12.24. Over 6 sets of rolls, that is 73.44. Standard Array is 72. And yes, many people today want everything their way, now. That world view pushes into D&D.
I wonder how many on this site who live and die by the canard "4d6 allows for variation and RP abilities" would be happy with roll 4d6, drop the HIGHEST. It allows for precisely the same variation, and RP opportunities.
I love the 4d6 system, because it keeps a first level human fighter from being the same as every other first level human fighter. With SA and PB, there's always a best set of ability scores for a powergamer to use and EVERYONE IS THE SAME. Probably never coming back to this thread.
I will never understand the doublethink here. The "true gamers" who are here to roleplay and scorn powergamers are always the same people who seem to think that ability scores are 100% what makes characters unique and special. Backstory? Not important. Racial features? Who cares. Skill proficiencies? Who uses those? Weapons and armor? Fighting Style? Ideals? Bond? Nope, if a guy has 16 DEX he's exactly the same as everyone else with 16 DEX. It's the same false logic that declares races to be meaningless without their ability score modifiers. For non-powergamers, you guys sure are focused on numbers.
If two fighters seem exactly the same, that is a roleplay failure, not a mechanical failure.
The game works best with every player at the expected power level, and you can play up an 8 as a weakness as easily as you can a 4. Rolling stats can be fun, but I'm never going to do it for anything beyond a one-shot.
I think this thread has a needlessly confrontational tone, if you start off a thread as basically a call-out tovvards people you disagree vvith, obviously you'll get nothing but hostile responses from those people... Eventually just devolving into arguments.
Anyvvay.. I think this vvhole business is a result of having ASIs and Feats tied together into the same mechanic. I believe Yurei already sort of made the point, but taking attribute increases instead of an interesting feat is super boring.. So I think a lot of people roll dice hoping for that one key stat to be very high so that they can have more fun customizing their character through feats, instead of taking boring ASIs.. Most classes get so fevv that it can be months and months before you ever get to pick a feat.
I'm very much of tvvo minds vvhen it comes to rolling.. I honestly don't like hovv big of a povver gap it can create betvveen the players, but on the other hand.. I personally love to get a high dex or something so I have the freedom to use feats instead.
If the tvvo vveere split into feat levels and ASI levels, I think I'd never roll for attributes.
I think this thread has a needlessly confrontational tone, if you start off a thread as basically a call-out tovvards people you disagree vvith, obviously you'll get nothing but hostile responses from those people... Eventually just devolving into arguments.
Anyvvay.. I think this vvhole business is a result of having ASIs and Feats tied together into the same mechanic. I believe Yurei already sort of made the point, but taking attribute increases instead of an interesting feat is super boring.. So I think a lot of people roll dice hoping for that one key stat to be very high so that they can have more fun customizing their character through feats, instead of taking boring ASIs.. Most classes get so fevv that it can be months and months before you ever get to pick a feat.
I'm very much of tvvo minds vvhen it comes to rolling.. I honestly don't like hovv big of a povver gap it can create betvveen the players, but on the other hand.. I personally love to get a high dex or something so I have the freedom to use feats instead.
If the tvvo vveere split into feat levels and ASI levels, I think I'd never roll for attributes.
I think this thread has a needlessly confrontational tone, if you start off a thread as basically a call-out tovvards people you disagree vvith, obviously you'll get nothing but hostile responses from those people... Eventually just devolving into arguments.
Anyvvay.. I think this vvhole business is a result of having ASIs and Feats tied together into the same mechanic. I believe Yurei already sort of made the point, but taking attribute increases instead of an interesting feat is super boring.. So I think a lot of people roll dice hoping for that one key stat to be very high so that they can have more fun customizing their character through feats, instead of taking boring ASIs.. Most classes get so fevv that it can be months and months before you ever get to pick a feat.
I'm very much of tvvo minds vvhen it comes to rolling.. I honestly don't like hovv big of a povver gap it can create betvveen the players, but on the other hand.. I personally love to get a high dex or something so I have the freedom to use feats instead.
If the tvvo vveere split into feat levels and ASI levels, I think I'd never roll for attributes.
No problem. You want variation, then roll 4d6 and then remove the HIGHEST. That will give you the precise same amount of customizing, RP, or whatever you want as the method you support.
I don't feel like you addressed the point I vvas making? I vvasn't calling for variation...
You can just as easily take a Feat like Chef to move your Wis to 12 as you can to take the same Feat to move your Wis to 16. It is neither no more "boring" nor no less "boring" to take a feat at any given time. Or are you saying it is "boring" to have non-20's in stats?
I think this thread has a needlessly confrontational tone, if you start off a thread as basically a call-out tovvards people you disagree vvith, obviously you'll get nothing but hostile responses from those people... Eventually just devolving into arguments.
Anyvvay.. I think this vvhole business is a result of having ASIs and Feats tied together into the same mechanic. I believe Yurei already sort of made the point, but taking attribute increases instead of an interesting feat is super boring.. So I think a lot of people roll dice hoping for that one key stat to be very high so that they can have more fun customizing their character through feats, instead of taking boring ASIs.. Most classes get so fevv that it can be months and months before you ever get to pick a feat.
I'm very much of tvvo minds vvhen it comes to rolling.. I honestly don't like hovv big of a povver gap it can create betvveen the players, but on the other hand.. I personally love to get a high dex or something so I have the freedom to use feats instead.
If the tvvo vveere split into feat levels and ASI levels, I think I'd never roll for attributes.
No problem. You want variation, then roll 4d6 and then remove the HIGHEST. That will give you the precise same amount of customizing, RP, or whatever you want as the method you support.
So it's an either/or thing now?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
I love the 4d6 system, because it keeps a first level human fighter from being the same as every other first level human fighter. With SA and PB, there's always a best set of ability scores for a powergamer to use and EVERYONE IS THE SAME.
That statement is factually wrong, on every level. A Dex based Champion Fighter will have a totally different focus on their stats than a Str Based Eldritch Knight, or a Samurai that has a secondary focus on Wisdom.
There is one reason, and one reason only: To get better starting stats.
Or interesting stats. I am right, if not specific. If you use SA, all dex champions will have nearly identical stats. So will all samurai. And Str EKs.
Nice movement of the goalposts. How about moving them again, when I state that Dex based Champions and Str based Champions, EK"s, and Samurai all have different stats that their Str based counterparts. Your argument is the equivalent of "all Warlocks have a high CHA", except weaker.
No, that's a stat priority. There aren't enough variations of the fighter for them to be different from any other fighter with the same subclass and stat preference(Generally Str or Dex) until(And if) they get feats at ABI levels.
I could go on, but the point has been made beautifully, and finally, by all these power-gamers. The reason people want to use the 4d6 system is to get better stats than the standard array or the 27 point buy. There is no other reason. And if they can't get their way, the idea is to wreck the game for everyone else.
This doesn't make sense. The 4d6 system existed in AD&D. There was no standard array or point buy system back then.
The game wasn't wrecked.
We still use the 4d6 system for one campaign and standard array for another. That's not affecting your game at all, is it?
And for the record, the only legit system is 3d6 in order. The entire idea of picking which stat to apply the numbers to is wrecking the game for everyone else :D
I think this thread has a needlessly confrontational tone, if you start off a thread as basically a call-out tovvards people you disagree vvith, obviously you'll get nothing but hostile responses from those people... Eventually just devolving into arguments.
Anyvvay.. I think this vvhole business is a result of having ASIs and Feats tied together into the same mechanic. I believe Yurei already sort of made the point, but taking attribute increases instead of an interesting feat is super boring.. So I think a lot of people roll dice hoping for that one key stat to be very high so that they can have more fun customizing their character through feats, instead of taking boring ASIs.. Most classes get so fevv that it can be months and months before you ever get to pick a feat.
I'm very much of tvvo minds vvhen it comes to rolling.. I honestly don't like hovv big of a povver gap it can create betvveen the players, but on the other hand.. I personally love to get a high dex or something so I have the freedom to use feats instead.
If the tvvo vveere split into feat levels and ASI levels, I think I'd never roll for attributes.
No problem. You want variation, then roll 4d6 and then remove the HIGHEST. That will give you the precise same amount of customizing, RP, or whatever you want as the method you support.
So it's an either/or thing now?
There all kinds of people who tell me about how 4d6 allows for all kinds of variation and customizing options and RP opportunities compared to the fair and balanced methods of creating a char. Those same people grow very quiet when I suggest that the 4d6 method, but removing the highest, provides them all things that 4d6 remove the lowest does.
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This is out of a facebook character optimizing channel I keep tabs on.
The original post:
"Got dealt the worst stat roll I've ever seen and DM won't let us roll again. 14 13 11 9 9 4. What do you even do with that other than cry?"
Various responses:
"Kill it and start over. "
"Just get your character killed as soon as you can."
"Make a deal with your DM talk to them about that you'll try it but if it's not fun you want to reroll it."
"Purposefully get your character killed so you can roll a new one."
"Decide if you want to play with that DM. Someone like that, enjoys controlling his players. Any DM i have played with, would let you reroll."
"If you really want to play with DM and willing to be a little trolly. Charisma 4, talk to EVERYONE. Increase risk of starting a scenario that gets you killed through lack of social ability.
I love the 4d6 system, because it keeps a first level human fighter from being the same as every other first level human fighter. With SA and PB, there's always a best set of ability scores for a powergamer to use and EVERYONE IS THE SAME. Probably never coming back to this thread.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
A few, from a nigh-infinite number of counterpoints:
1.) Did the DM insist on 4d6y drop lowest, without giving the player the option of using a fixed stat array? Many DMs do, and players lament low scores because they had no option to take the enforced mediocrity of Standard Array.
2.) Is the player upset over their low numbers, or upset because their numbers are twenty to thirty points below the rest of their table's? If the latter, perhaps the mere existence of their character is already dragging down the table's fun and they're looking for the best out they can.
3.) What other responses did the player get, other than your cherry-picked "MUNCHKINS ARE TERRIBLE! DX" selection of responses? There are ways of playing around a Village Idiot stat array; where were the people suggesting those ways?
4.) You specifically state this is from a character optimization channel. How, and why, does it surprise you that it's populated by optimizers, rather than by the Rules-Lite Narrative Experience(C) sorts you're looking for?
5.) Many people gamble on 4d6kh not to Munchkin The Game Away, but because using an ASI to increase a stat by two points is the most boring possible way to level up a character in all of D&D 5e. It is boring. Players much prefer to make interesting choices for their characters when granted the rare chance to take a feat, but if their numbers are poor to the point of hindering their party and they're playing with a killer DM who refuses to allow them to find, create, barter, or bullshit their way into a more stable position (like, say...you)? They don't get to choose interesting feats that speak to their character's growth and personality, they get to pick a number to increase by 2. Which is not really any different than not gaining a level at all. And since Standard Array is a very poor numeric spread by default...well. Take the chance on 4d6kh and hope.
I could go on, but the point has been made beautifully. One cherry-picked story from a random Facebook feed is barely even an anecdote, let alone Conclusive Proof That All Optimizers Are Evil.
Please do not contact or message me.
That statement is factually wrong, on every level. A Dex based Champion Fighter will have a totally different focus on their stats than a Str Based Eldritch Knight, or a Samurai that has a secondary focus on Wisdom.
There is one reason, and one reason only: To get better starting stats.
Or interesting stats. I am right, if not specific. If you use SA, all dex champions will have nearly identical stats. So will all samurai. And Str EKs.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
If a player feels that much constrained by the Standard Array or 27 point buy that they feel they NEED the "variation" of the 4d6 method, then the player is a bad player. The 27 point buy allows for a near infinite variation in initial stats. And it is fair to all.
Oh, and I do like your clever personal insult. My players don't have to bullshit or barter or whine about their starting stats because they ALL use the 27 point buy, and they then all start at the same level, and can build what they like within that construct, which I have already said allows for near infinite options. Only a weak player would argue otherwise.
Nice movement of the goalposts. How about moving them again, when I state that Dex based Champions and Str based Champions, EK"s, and Samurai all have different stats that their Str based counterparts. Your argument is the equivalent of "all Warlocks have a high CHA", except weaker.
I swear the scores people are expecting on to be 'viable' as a character have been creeping up over time. I don't understand the expectation to be starting with amazing scores. Part of what I love about DnD is the character getting gradually stronger over time, going from zero to hero. Feels a bit pointless when you're practically demigods at level 1.
Much of the recent abomination that shall not be named was designed for creating power-gaming stats. The 4d6, drop the lowest results, method results in an expected value of 12.24. Over 6 sets of rolls, that is 73.44. Standard Array is 72. And yes, many people today want everything their way, now. That world view pushes into D&D.
I wonder how many on this site who live and die by the canard "4d6 allows for variation and RP abilities" would be happy with roll 4d6, drop the HIGHEST. It allows for precisely the same variation, and RP opportunities.
I will never understand the doublethink here. The "true gamers" who are here to roleplay and scorn powergamers are always the same people who seem to think that ability scores are 100% what makes characters unique and special. Backstory? Not important. Racial features? Who cares. Skill proficiencies? Who uses those? Weapons and armor? Fighting Style? Ideals? Bond? Nope, if a guy has 16 DEX he's exactly the same as everyone else with 16 DEX. It's the same false logic that declares races to be meaningless without their ability score modifiers. For non-powergamers, you guys sure are focused on numbers.
If two fighters seem exactly the same, that is a roleplay failure, not a mechanical failure.
The game works best with every player at the expected power level, and you can play up an 8 as a weakness as easily as you can a 4. Rolling stats can be fun, but I'm never going to do it for anything beyond a one-shot.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
I think this thread has a needlessly confrontational tone, if you start off a thread as basically a call-out tovvards people you disagree vvith, obviously you'll get nothing but hostile responses from those people... Eventually just devolving into arguments.
Anyvvay.. I think this vvhole business is a result of having ASIs and Feats tied together into the same mechanic. I believe Yurei already sort of made the point, but taking attribute increases instead of an interesting feat is super boring.. So I think a lot of people roll dice hoping for that one key stat to be very high so that they can have more fun customizing their character through feats, instead of taking boring ASIs.. Most classes get so fevv that it can be months and months before you ever get to pick a feat.
I'm very much of tvvo minds vvhen it comes to rolling.. I honestly don't like hovv big of a povver gap it can create betvveen the players, but on the other hand.. I personally love to get a high dex or something so I have the freedom to use feats instead.
If the tvvo vveere split into feat levels and ASI levels, I think I'd never roll for attributes.
Someone get MT a w key!
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Sorry :) Using a laptop, so it's not super easy to fix I'm afraid.
No problem. You want variation, then roll 4d6 and then remove the HIGHEST. That will give you the precise same amount of customizing, RP, or whatever you want as the method you support.
I don't feel like you addressed the point I vvas making? I vvasn't calling for variation...
You can just as easily take a Feat like Chef to move your Wis to 12 as you can to take the same Feat to move your Wis to 16. It is neither no more "boring" nor no less "boring" to take a feat at any given time. Or are you saying it is "boring" to have non-20's in stats?
So it's an either/or thing now?
Want to start playing but don't have anyone to play with? You can try these options: [link].
No, that's a stat priority. There aren't enough variations of the fighter for them to be different from any other fighter with the same subclass and stat preference(Generally Str or Dex) until(And if) they get feats at ABI levels.
I have a weird sense of humor.
I also make maps.(That's a link)
This doesn't make sense. The 4d6 system existed in AD&D. There was no standard array or point buy system back then.
The game wasn't wrecked.
We still use the 4d6 system for one campaign and standard array for another. That's not affecting your game at all, is it?
And for the record, the only legit system is 3d6 in order. The entire idea of picking which stat to apply the numbers to is wrecking the game for everyone else :D
There all kinds of people who tell me about how 4d6 allows for all kinds of variation and customizing options and RP opportunities compared to the fair and balanced methods of creating a char. Those same people grow very quiet when I suggest that the 4d6 method, but removing the highest, provides them all things that 4d6 remove the lowest does.