A key part of what made the Drow what they are was that they were cursed and forced underground by the Goddess, Corellon Larethian for their neutrality during the War of the Seldarine while the elves that were spared from this fate by the Goddess, Sehanine Moonbow became the Dusk Elves. The Drow were already complex in that there were some that hated Drow society and wanted to escape and sometimes would with the help of Eilistraee. Yet now it's being retconned so that the Drow always had a choice not to serve Lolth which makes the presence of Eilistraee seem redundant.
Me thinks you need to go back and dig a little deeper into that Drow lore. At least in the Forgotten realms the lore is rather different: 1) Correllon was a male deity not female. 2) the southern dark elves worshiped his wife - Lolth and their children Eillistraee and Verhaun. 3) Lolth convinced/ tricked her children into helping her power grab by trying to assassinate Correllon 4) the dark elves were fomenting war between northern and central elven kingdoms (granted the vayshantar high elves were doing their own power grab) 5) Eillistraee realized what was happening and missed her arrow shot at her father screwing up Lolth’s bid. 6) Lolth was thrown out of the elven “heaven” into the abyss where she became a demon lord. 7) Correllon, in his anger cursed the dark elves turning them into Drow and driving them into the underdark. 8) he relented allowing his daughter to remain and remain a dark elf but she chose to accept the curse so as to provide a ray of hope for the Drow. 9) the war of the gods and the crown wars more or less overlap in time with the descent of the Drow occurring roughly 20k years ago and the crown wars ending about 12,000 years ago.
Regarding the first point, Corellon is explicitly gender-fluid (and in fact extremely fluid in general when it comes to form) in the 5e lore; male pronouns are used once or twice in the write-ups in MToF, but generally the writing avoids assigning a gender.
Yes, Correllon is somewhat gender fluid. However, in forgotten realms lore (where it is deepest) Corellon is specifically described as male in relation to Lolth who is described as his wife and the mother of his children. Once Lolth is banished Sehanie takes over the "wifely duties" in the pantheon. Because FR was a/the core world for so long much of its lore has come to be thought of as "canon" though its techically strictly for that qworld with otehr worlds having different lore (which is where a lot of the confusion often comes from).
As the aspect of all things elven, Corellon was both male and female. As well a being a warrior, poet, mage and bard. But after falling in love with Araurushnee he settled into the form of a male gold elven warrior. Thus he is known as the Father of the Elves.
After being cast into the Abyss, Lloth took on the form of a female black widow spider while retaining the head of a beautiful female elf. Corellon then cursed the drow with sunlight sensitivity.
That's some older lore from the look of it; in MToF it says that elves came from Corellon's spilled blood during his clash with Gruumsh, and that his being assigned male identifiers came from some of the elves eventually elevated to godhood from those spawned by his blood came to view him as a father figure contrasting with Lolth as a mother figure. According to the most up-to-date source I know of for this lore, Corellon is still quite mutable and doesn't have a self-perceived "default" gender. Heck, Corellon's special blessing is making some elves born able to shift between physical genders at will.
I think, between the 3 of us we have pretty well covered the origin of elves and Drow and their cursing. At least as far as the old FR lore goes. Good job guys! Now let’s see what hash WOtC makes of it with the 2024 MM and later volumes.
I remember on reddit I had argued with some moron that said that the change would make the Drow more "morally complex." He said that the Drow were 1-dimensional which is ironic considering he had Drizzt in his username so he should've known better. When I tried to explain to him what Moral Complexity was he rudely responded with "I don't give a shit."
A key part of what made the Drow what they are was that they were cursed and forced underground by the Goddess, Corellon Larethian for their neutrality during the War of the Seldarine while the elves that were spared from this fate by the Goddess, Sehanine Moonbow became the Dusk Elves. The Drow were already complex in that there were some that hated Drow society and wanted to escape and sometimes would with the help of Eilistraee. Yet now it's being retconned so that the Drow always had a choice not to serve Lolth which makes the presence of Eilistraee seem redundant.
To be completely honest I just liked that a culture consisting entirely of dominatrixes was in the lore
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Dungeon Master: Killing your charcters since 1974
Timeless, Boundless, Ruler of The Spire of Creation
Now, thanks to AeDorsay’s thread on how long folks have been playing we have an answer to why there are frequently differences between the DDB and Reddit responses- most DDB players actually played the older editions, most Reddit players didn’t so they don’t really know the old lore.
Now, thanks to AeDorsay’s thread on how long folks have been playing we have an answer to why there are frequently differences between the DDB and Reddit responses- most DDB players actually played the older editions, most Reddit players didn’t so they don’t really know the old lore.
I didn't play the old editions but I read the lore for them when I was bored
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Dungeon Master: Killing your charcters since 1974
Timeless, Boundless, Ruler of The Spire of Creation
A key part of what made the Drow what they are was that they were cursed and forced underground by the Goddess, Corellon Larethian for their neutrality during the War of the Seldarine while the elves that were spared from this fate by the Goddess, Sehanine Moonbow became the Dusk Elves. The Drow were already complex in that there were some that hated Drow society and wanted to escape and sometimes would with the help of Eilistraee. Yet now it's being retconned so that the Drow always had a choice not to serve Lolth which makes the presence of Eilistraee seem redundant.
Me thinks you need to go back and dig a little deeper into that Drow lore. At least in the Forgotten realms the lore is rather different:
1) Correllon was a male deity not female.
2) the southern dark elves worshiped his wife - Lolth and their children Eillistraee and Verhaun.
3) Lolth convinced/ tricked her children into helping her power grab by trying to assassinate Correllon
4) the dark elves were fomenting war between northern and central elven kingdoms (granted the vayshantar high elves were doing their own power grab)
5) Eillistraee realized what was happening and missed her arrow shot at her father screwing up Lolth’s bid.
6) Lolth was thrown out of the elven “heaven” into the abyss where she became a demon lord.
7) Correllon, in his anger cursed the dark elves turning them into Drow and driving them into the underdark.
8) he relented allowing his daughter to remain and remain a dark elf but she chose to accept the curse so as to provide a ray of hope for the Drow.
9) the war of the gods and the crown wars more or less overlap in time with the descent of the Drow occurring roughly 20k years ago and the crown wars ending about 12,000 years ago.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Regarding the first point, Corellon is explicitly gender-fluid (and in fact extremely fluid in general when it comes to form) in the 5e lore; male pronouns are used once or twice in the write-ups in MToF, but generally the writing avoids assigning a gender.
Yes, Correllon is somewhat gender fluid. However, in forgotten realms lore (where it is deepest) Corellon is specifically described as male in relation to Lolth who is described as his wife and the mother of his children. Once Lolth is banished Sehanie takes over the "wifely duties" in the pantheon. Because FR was a/the core world for so long much of its lore has come to be thought of as "canon" though its techically strictly for that qworld with otehr worlds having different lore (which is where a lot of the confusion often comes from).
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
As the aspect of all things elven, Corellon was both male and female. As well a being a warrior, poet, mage and bard. But after falling in love with Araurushnee he settled into the form of a male gold elven warrior. Thus he is known as the Father of the Elves.
After being cast into the Abyss, Lloth took on the form of a female black widow spider while retaining the head of a beautiful female elf. Corellon then cursed the drow with sunlight sensitivity.
That's some older lore from the look of it; in MToF it says that elves came from Corellon's spilled blood during his clash with Gruumsh, and that his being assigned male identifiers came from some of the elves eventually elevated to godhood from those spawned by his blood came to view him as a father figure contrasting with Lolth as a mother figure. According to the most up-to-date source I know of for this lore, Corellon is still quite mutable and doesn't have a self-perceived "default" gender. Heck, Corellon's special blessing is making some elves born able to shift between physical genders at will.
I think, between the 3 of us we have pretty well covered the origin of elves and Drow and their cursing. At least as far as the old FR lore goes. Good job guys! Now let’s see what hash WOtC makes of it with the 2024 MM and later volumes.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
You guys are more reasonable than the D&D subreddit.
Thanks, though that bar’s low enough to be a tripping hazard.
Agreed
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I remember on reddit I had argued with some moron that said that the change would make the Drow more "morally complex." He said that the Drow were 1-dimensional which is ironic considering he had Drizzt in his username so he should've known better. When I tried to explain to him what Moral Complexity was he rudely responded with "I don't give a shit."
That is a great recap
Playing since 79. Woot
And the part that really grinded my gears was when he acted like if I was overreacting when I got offended by his juvenile response.
To be completely honest I just liked that a culture consisting entirely of dominatrixes was in the lore
Dungeon Master: Killing your charcters since 1974
Timeless, Boundless, Ruler of The Spire of Creation
lol, yeah that was always an interesting sidebar
Now, thanks to AeDorsay’s thread on how long folks have been playing we have an answer to why there are frequently differences between the DDB and Reddit responses- most DDB players actually played the older editions, most Reddit players didn’t so they don’t really know the old lore.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
I didn't play the old editions but I read the lore for them when I was bored
Dungeon Master: Killing your charcters since 1974
Timeless, Boundless, Ruler of The Spire of Creation
Always a good idea to read history - in game or out.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.