The cosmogony of the D&D multiverse has changed many times since its inception. I can understand why 5e sourcebooks don’t really go too much into it, considering how insane 4e was about it, but what is provided is kind of confusing and mostly left up to interpretation. The Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide brings up Io and their potential creation of the multiverse, along with several references to the Dawn War and primordials, but refers to it as apocryphal. Fizban’s elaborates on the First World concept that Tasha’s brought up, but states that the Outer Planes and Astral Sea existed already. The Dawn War is offhandedly mentioned in Light of Xaryxis when they talk about Doomspace’s origins (and even brings back the concept of crystal spheres, albeit in a much different way), but still leaves things ambiguous. I’m too broke for Planescape, so I don’t know if it adds any new lore, but it still leaves a lot untold. What I’m wondering is, in the current canon, what is the origin of the multiverse and the proceedings that occurred after? How does Io factor into things? Do overgods still exist in the same way? What about Tharizdun? How did the Outer and Inner Planes form? I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS!!!
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Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run… but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant.
There is no D&D canon. There's Forgotten Realms canon, which is true if you're playing FR. There's SJ canon, which is true if you're playing SJ.
Unless you change it. Ultimately, you, or your DM, decides the origin of the world.
Or not. It's a very rare campaign where it actually matters. Different cultures can have different stories of how the world came to be. Different gods can take the credit. It's just a colorful detail.
To elaborate on the above a bit: in previous editions they were much more open to having a centralized Canon for DnD, but in 5e they're definitely trying to shy away from having a singular correct world/history/etc, and instead pushing for the idea that each world and each setting has their own canon, their own history, creation myth, etc.
It makes for annoyances like not having good "fluff" to describe monsters in the newer books, but the fluff mostly just changed locations (from monster compendiums to settings/campaign books). I know some people didn't like the change, but I like the change in ethos.
Okay, thanks for the clarification. I guess I was more thinking about Torilian cosmogony, since it’s sort of the “default” setting of 5e.
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Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run… but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant.
The new DMG 2024 has a surprisingly detailed cosmology section with a clear map, which the PHB 2024 somewhat introduced. It's the most up-to-date, condensed source in my opinion.
What stands out in the DMG 2024 is how the game designer narratively explains that "things are never exactly the same depending on who experiences it" when discussing the cosmology. All I hear is, "Really, it depends on your Game Master's interpretation of what we just said."
Greyhawk is probably the first world to exist in D&D canon, as it was created by Gygax (D&D’s creator)—though I’d need to verify that. I interpret this as: it was the original Material Plane, followed by other Material Planes like the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Ravenloft. Then, the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane formed, along with the elemental planes. Sigil and the Outlands appeared, and later, the Feywild and the Shadowfell.
Something like that, but honestly, I’d base my "GM understanding" on the order in which they were officially released by WotC. But that's just my take.
Greyhawk is probably the first world to exist in D&D canon, as it was created by Gygax (D&D’s creator)—though I’d need to verify that.
Fun trivia: The first world in D&D cannon was Blackmoor, by Dave Arneson, the lesser-known other father of D&D. Gygax put the first rules together, and Arneson did the same for the setting. Truthfully, they inspired each other, and I find the distinction of "first" for either to be interesting trivia but limiting. To really understand both of them and their influence, you have to look at them together as one response to the new idea of D&D.
Thank you for this insight. I will defintely do a proper research in the short future as I construct my notes on my own understanding of the D&D "canonical" multiverse.
In a first manifestation of magic, the multiverse pulled itself out of a tophat that had yet to exist. Pop!
The now-unmagical tophat is on display in the Pre-Existance Museum in Waterdeep. The owner and operator of the place has credentials that - perhaps unsurprisingly - came into existance in the same way.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Greyhawk is probably the first world to exist in D&D canon, as it was created by Gygax (D&D’s creator)—though I’d need to verify that.
Fun trivia: The first world in D&D cannon was Blackmoor, by Dave Arneson, the lesser-known other father of D&D. Gygax put the first rules together, and Arneson did the same for the setting. Truthfully, they inspired each other, and I find the distinction of "first" for either to be interesting trivia but limiting. To really understand both of them and their influence, you have to look at them together as one response to the new idea of D&D.
Was blackmoore ever really developed as an entire world (or material plane?) or simply a location in a larger and at the time unnamed world or plane?
It was eventually absorbed into the Greyhawk and Mystara settings.
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Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
There were Blackmoor supplements and Arneson did a fine 3rd Edition version of the setting.
If we look to TSR only I lean toward thinking that it wasn't a strong stand alone setting. Like Greyhawk it was "Dave's game." and "Gary's game." ended up becoming the first coherent attempt at a setting product. D&D didn't start with official settings in mind.
As a published setting in the sense of being a place presented to you by a book where you can set your adventures? It might have been. Greyhawk and Blackmoor's previous appearances may have been in premade modules. (original D&D had supplements by those names, but I believe they didn't contain setting information, just more general-use classes and such.)
Mystara's earliest incarnation was as the Grand Duchy of Kar???os, first presented (I think) in the original Expert Set, which is ~1980. (Before the Red Box -- the corresponding Basic Set was more magenta.)
IIRC, it was pretty thin gruel as settings go.
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The cosmogony of the D&D multiverse has changed many times since its inception. I can understand why 5e sourcebooks don’t really go too much into it, considering how insane 4e was about it, but what is provided is kind of confusing and mostly left up to interpretation. The Sword Coast Adventurer’s Guide brings up Io and their potential creation of the multiverse, along with several references to the Dawn War and primordials, but refers to it as apocryphal. Fizban’s elaborates on the First World concept that Tasha’s brought up, but states that the Outer Planes and Astral Sea existed already. The Dawn War is offhandedly mentioned in Light of Xaryxis when they talk about Doomspace’s origins (and even brings back the concept of crystal spheres, albeit in a much different way), but still leaves things ambiguous. I’m too broke for Planescape, so I don’t know if it adds any new lore, but it still leaves a lot untold. What I’m wondering is, in the current canon, what is the origin of the multiverse and the proceedings that occurred after? How does Io factor into things? Do overgods still exist in the same way? What about Tharizdun? How did the Outer and Inner Planes form? I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS!!!
Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run… but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant.
This is just Jobah619 again btw
Protect trans kids
There is no D&D canon. There's Forgotten Realms canon, which is true if you're playing FR. There's SJ canon, which is true if you're playing SJ.
Unless you change it. Ultimately, you, or your DM, decides the origin of the world.
Or not. It's a very rare campaign where it actually matters. Different cultures can have different stories of how the world came to be. Different gods can take the credit. It's just a colorful detail.
To elaborate on the above a bit: in previous editions they were much more open to having a centralized Canon for DnD, but in 5e they're definitely trying to shy away from having a singular correct world/history/etc, and instead pushing for the idea that each world and each setting has their own canon, their own history, creation myth, etc.
It makes for annoyances like not having good "fluff" to describe monsters in the newer books, but the fluff mostly just changed locations (from monster compendiums to settings/campaign books). I know some people didn't like the change, but I like the change in ethos.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Okay, thanks for the clarification. I guess I was more thinking about Torilian cosmogony, since it’s sort of the “default” setting of 5e.
Maybe it meant something. Maybe not, in the long run… but no explanation, no mix of words or music or memories can touch that sense of knowing that you were there and alive in that corner of time and the world. Whatever it meant.
This is just Jobah619 again btw
Protect trans kids
The new DMG 2024 has a surprisingly detailed cosmology section with a clear map, which the PHB 2024 somewhat introduced. It's the most up-to-date, condensed source in my opinion.
What stands out in the DMG 2024 is how the game designer narratively explains that "things are never exactly the same depending on who experiences it" when discussing the cosmology. All I hear is, "Really, it depends on your Game Master's interpretation of what we just said."
Greyhawk is probably the first world to exist in D&D canon, as it was created by Gygax (D&D’s creator)—though I’d need to verify that. I interpret this as: it was the original Material Plane, followed by other Material Planes like the Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Ravenloft. Then, the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane formed, along with the elemental planes. Sigil and the Outlands appeared, and later, the Feywild and the Shadowfell.
Something like that, but honestly, I’d base my "GM understanding" on the order in which they were officially released by WotC. But that's just my take.
Fun trivia: The first world in D&D cannon was Blackmoor, by Dave Arneson, the lesser-known other father of D&D. Gygax put the first rules together, and Arneson did the same for the setting. Truthfully, they inspired each other, and I find the distinction of "first" for either to be interesting trivia but limiting. To really understand both of them and their influence, you have to look at them together as one response to the new idea of D&D.
View my StartPlaying.Games profile to see my games!
Thank you for this insight. I will defintely do a proper research in the short future as I construct my notes on my own understanding of the D&D "canonical" multiverse.
In a first manifestation of magic, the multiverse pulled itself out of a tophat that had yet to exist. Pop!
The now-unmagical tophat is on display in the Pre-Existance Museum in Waterdeep. The owner and operator of the place has credentials that - perhaps unsurprisingly - came into existance in the same way.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Was blackmoore ever really developed as an entire world (or material plane?) or simply a location in a larger and at the time unnamed world or plane?
It was eventually absorbed into the Greyhawk and Mystara settings.
Thank you for your time and please have a very pleasant day.
There were Blackmoor supplements and Arneson did a fine 3rd Edition version of the setting.
If we look to TSR only I lean toward thinking that it wasn't a strong stand alone setting. Like Greyhawk it was "Dave's game." and "Gary's game." ended up becoming the first coherent attempt at a setting product. D&D didn't start with official settings in mind.
View my StartPlaying.Games profile to see my games!
according to the DMG Mystara was first...
Race: Not Human. that's for sure
Class: Godless monster in human form bent on extending their natural life to unnatural extremes/general of the goose horde
Alignment: Lawful Evil
fun fact: i gain more power the more you post on my forum threads. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
King Of TVs.
In the sense of existing, it wasn't.
As a published setting in the sense of being a place presented to you by a book where you can set your adventures? It might have been. Greyhawk and Blackmoor's previous appearances may have been in premade modules. (original D&D had supplements by those names, but I believe they didn't contain setting information, just more general-use classes and such.)
Mystara's earliest incarnation was as the Grand Duchy of Kar???os, first presented (I think) in the original Expert Set, which is ~1980. (Before the Red Box -- the corresponding Basic Set was more magenta.)
IIRC, it was pretty thin gruel as settings go.