For a first level spell, the ceremony spell is very expensive. The spell covers things such as last rights and wedding ceremonies, as well as a few other things. It was suggested in an unrelated thread that the spell is not necessary for last rights or weddings to be officially recognized by the Gods, or even just the God of the caster.
I disagree. After all, otherwise, what is the purpose of the spell on a societal level, exactly? Why even have the spell?
Last rights: Well if the person's corpse cannot be prevented from being animated without said spell, that certainly suggests that, without said spell, the divine rules allow that and with, the divine rules forbid it. That sounds pretty 'official' to me. With it, the burial is 'registered' in some way with the celestial bureaucracy and the soul thus protected from being stolen from the afterlife against its will.
Weddings: Similarly, if the spell is not needed to make weddings official in the eyes of the caster's faith, why would anyone bother with the spell? Unless it is actually needed, anyone wanting a fancy wedding could still hold a fancy wedding without said spell. If they could spend that 25gp any way they want, including simply paying the priest, who then could use the money to help run the church or to fund other church related projects, just as such fees work in real life, rather than the equivalent of literally burning the money.
Coming of Age: A nice buff, but can literally only be used on any given person once a lifetime and even then only when they are young enough... And again, does this mean that those who cannot afford such a ceremony are forever treated as what? Children? Lesser adults? Who writes this stuff?
Attonement: Particularly since alignment is nowhere near as important as it was even one edition ago and people can simply act differently and change on their own, what is the purpose to this at all? If a player is unable to play their character properly as their intended starting alignment, how is this spell going to change anything about their character's behavior anyway?
Dedication: A nice buff, but again... 'a creature can benefit from this rite only once.' So again, the once in a lifetime restriction.
So... what is the purpose of the 25gp cost, exactly? Did they start with a spell for making holy water and decide it should have more features, but left the cost in for everything, for some reason?
In 5e, even 25gp for holy water seems questionable....
Questions:
1) Particularly for last rights and wedding ceremonies, how 'necessary' is this spell for them to be considered legitimate under the faith of the caster?
2) Thoughts on the 25gp cost (his question might be delving into homebrew land, I know, since the cost is clearly RAW, but still... curious as to opinions on any possible reason it could be considered needed for play balance).
Holy Water: I suspect this is the main reason for the price of the spell. Holy Water in prior editions has traditionally cost 25gp per vial and and, particularly in earlier editions, been more useful.
I think the spell is completely unnecessary on a societal level. It's only benefit is providing the magical bonuses that each option offers. Otherwise a mundane (non-magical) religious ceremony will absolutely suffice.
I think the spell is completely unnecessary on a societal level. It's only benefit is providing the magical bonuses that each option offers. Otherwise a mundane (non-magical) religious ceremony will absolutely suffice.
The 'magical bonus' of funeral rights is to prevent the corpse from being transformed into an undead. That seems like a pretty important 'last right' to me.
Wedding rights give the couple an AC buff for a week, but only when they are close together. So even if the groom (or bride) was military and thus likely to need such a buff within the next week, this right exists only for couples that go into battle together? Seriously?
My take on it is that, since adventurers are exceptional people, and this is a spell primarily made available to adventuring paladins and clerics (im going with the assumption that not every NPC priest has to have a character class to do their job), that the Ceremony spell itself represents an exceptional occasion that is not only recognized, but blessed by the gods.
Peasants can get married in the eyes of their gods or in their names, but they are not the chosen heroes of legend that the gods have brought together to lay waste to the evils of the world as they are strengthened by their bond to each other, who have performed sacred and powerful rites to secure blessing over their union.
Likewise, commoners have funerals where they bid the soul to return to their gods, but they are not given a hero's burial and treated as the God's Honored Dead, who songs shall be sung of eternally.
That's how I see the Ceremony spell: it's a turning up to 11 on the usual rites to elevate them to the stuff of legend.
You have to remember that most priests are not clerics. Maybe they have something like Magic Initiate sometimes, but PC class levels are rare. If actual spellcasting were an absolute requirement for cultural rituals, society would not function.
You have to remember that most priests are not clerics. Maybe they have something like Magic Initiate sometimes, but PC class levels are rare. If actual spellcasting were an absolute requirement for cultural rituals, society would not function.
Where exactly are lay clerics (i.e. non-leveled clerics) described anywhere at all? In any edition, let alone 5e?
You have to remember that most priests are not clerics. Maybe they have something like Magic Initiate sometimes, but PC class levels are rare. If actual spellcasting were an absolute requirement for cultural rituals, society would not function.
Where exactly are lay clerics (i.e. non-leveled clerics) described anywhere at all? In any edition, let alone 5e?
I'd say their existence is implied by the necessity for hero clerics. It's not like when goblins come calling, villagers run to the cleric and say "quick! Cast shield of faith!"
Most priests are just lettered folk who've devoted study and service to a religion and serve a community in that capacity. You don't have to have magic to give a compelling sermon to your flock, or spread the word of your God, or give advise based on the holy teachings to those who come for it.
Divine magic is more of like a gift that's bestowed into the especially faithful for when the god doing the bestowing sees a need for their servant to have it. The lore doesn't suggest at all that priest=cleric and cleric=priest.
You have to remember that most priests are not clerics. Maybe they have something like Magic Initiate sometimes, but PC class levels are rare. If actual spellcasting were an absolute requirement for cultural rituals, society would not function.
Where exactly are lay clerics (i.e. non-leveled clerics) described anywhere at all? In any edition, let alone 5e?
I'd say their existence is implied by the necessity for hero clerics. It's not like when goblins come calling, villagers run to the cleric and say "quick! Cast shield of faith!"
Most priests are just lettered folk who've devoted study and service to a religion and serve a community in that capacity. You don't have to have magic to give a compelling sermon to your flock, or spread the word of your God, or give advise based on the holy teachings to those who come for it.
Divine magic is more of like a gift that's bestowed into the especially faithful for when the god doing the bestowing sees a need for their servant to have it. The lore doesn't suggest at all that priest=cleric and cleric=priest.
NPC's can clearly be leveled though and we are only talking about 1st level. This 'Only PC's can be leveled' thing is, well, pretty nonsensical. if nothing else, the sidekick rules prove it false. The PC's can still be 'the heroes' without making every NPC in the world a complete nobody.
The 'magical bonus' of funeral rights is to prevent the corpse from being transformed into an undead. That seems like a pretty important 'last right' to me.
And yet it costs 25gp and 60 minutes more than gentle repose which lasts 3 days longer (granted will be a rarer spell for common priests).
I'm pretty sure ceremony is a completely unrequired, extra formality used by the rich or on special occasion. Most commoners (basically every human that lives outside of cities) worship Chauntea the goddess of agriculture and motherhood. Neither marriage nor weddings are mentioned in descriptions of her faith. In fact marriage is hardly mentioned at all in the religions of Faerun. Seems it is mostly a tradition of the rich.
Funerals on the other hand get a bit more mention (there are no fewer than 2 gods of death after all). While I'm still pretty sure that those outside worshipers of specific gods will settle for a short prayer before burying at a local graveyard, I did find this in regard to payment:
The faithful of Kelemvor provide people with peaceful transitions into the care of the Lord of the Dead. They help the dying put their affairs in order, and they officiate at funeral rites for those who can’t afford the lavish ceremonies of their faith.
And that about does it for ceremony I think. I'm pretty sure holy water can even be made without the spell for the same cost (though it consumes a slot without the ritual). Coming of age and atonement are again, probably mostly for the rich. And dedication only for future clergy.
You have to remember that most priests are not clerics. Maybe they have something like Magic Initiate sometimes, but PC class levels are rare. If actual spellcasting were an absolute requirement for cultural rituals, society would not function.
Where exactly are lay clerics (i.e. non-leveled clerics) described anywhere at all? In any edition, let alone 5e?
In SCAG in the religions of the realms section, obviously:
Those who serve as priests of a god aren’t necessarily clerics. Indeed, the power invested in clerics and other divine spellcasters by the gods is given out only rarely. The work of a priest is to serve one’s deity and that deity’s faithful, a task that doesn’t necessarily require the use of magic.
You have to remember that most priests are not clerics. Maybe they have something like Magic Initiate sometimes, but PC class levels are rare. If actual spellcasting were an absolute requirement for cultural rituals, society would not function.
Where exactly are lay clerics (i.e. non-leveled clerics) described anywhere at all? In any edition, let alone 5e?
In SCAG in the religions of the realms section, obviously:
Those who serve as priests of a god aren’t necessarily clerics. Indeed, the power invested in clerics and other divine spellcasters by the gods is given out only rarely. The work of a priest is to serve one’s deity and that deity’s faithful, a task that doesn’t necessarily require the use of magic.
<facepalm>
And indeed! Even Mages Guilds consist entirely of non-caster bureaucrats. Thieve's guilds consist mostly of people who aren't necessarily experienced in breaking any sort of laws at all, let alone stealing anything....
Do they realize how absurdist it is, that 'priests' have no actual divine power granted to them in a world where Gods exist and hold worshipers to a great extent due to handing out such power and thus such services?
Do they realize how absurdist it is, that 'priests' have no actual divine power granted to them in a world where Gods exist and hold worshipers to a great extent due to handing out such power and thus such services?
Priests don't have magic powers in real life and still have huge followings. In a world where worship and prayers are very likely to be heard and acted upon, magic is even less necessary. Does it really matter whether the local priest personally has magic if the god they represent is still blessing you with good harvests?
Most D&D gods are not omnipotent or omniscient. Surely there's a limit to how much power they can grant, and if a priest misuses their divine power it could harm the faith. It makes sense for the gods to be selective.
Ok, addressing the lay priest argument, from the description of the cleric class, PHB
"Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods’ will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. In some cities, priesthood amounts to a political office, viewed as a stepping stone to higher positions of authority and involving no communion with a god at all. True clerics are rare in most hierarchies."
All that is saying is that there are lay members of any given clergy. This is true in RL religions too. It is not saying that acolytes perform marriage ceremonies. Those require fully ordained priests, at least in the eyes of the church. There has to be a large enough church or temple or shrine for that to apply too, for there to be such a deep hierarchy.
Do they realize how absurdist it is, that 'priests' have no actual divine power granted to them in a world where Gods exist and hold worshipers to a great extent due to handing out such power and thus such services?
Priests don't have magic powers in real life and still have huge followings. In a world where worship and prayers are very likely to be heard and acted upon, magic is even less necessary. Does it really matter whether the local priest personally has magic if the god they represent is still blessing you with good harvests?
Most D&D gods are not omnipotent or omniscient. Surely there's a limit to how much power they can grant, and if a priest misuses their divine power it could harm the faith. It makes sense for the gods to be selective.
Again, does this mean that there are likewise no Mage Guilds or Thieves' Guilds? Or that the Bardic 'Colleges' are theory only, taught by those who barely even sing?
Paladins can power their spells and abilities simply on the power of swearing an oath and you figure that actual Gods are more limited in the power they grant than that?
Ok, addressing the lay priest argument, from the description of the cleric class, PHB
"Not every acolyte or officiant at a temple or shrine is a cleric. Some priests are called to a simple life of temple service, carrying out their gods’ will through prayer and sacrifice, not by magic and strength of arms. In some cities, priesthood amounts to a political office, viewed as a stepping stone to higher positions of authority and involving no communion with a god at all. True clerics are rare in most hierarchies."
All that is saying is that there are lay members of any given clergy. This is true in RL religions too. It is not saying that acolytes perform marriage ceremonies. Those require fully ordained priests, at least in the eyes of the church. There has to be a large enough church or temple or shrine for that to apply too, for there to be such a deep hierarchy.
“True clerics are rare in most hierarchies.” So again, if actual spellcasting were required for community rituals, society wouldn’t function.
Again, does this mean that there are likewise no Mage Guilds or Thieves' Guilds? Or that the Bardic 'Colleges' are theory only, taught by those who barely even sing?
What do wizards and thieves have to do with clerics, gods, and organized religion? And yes, the Player's Handbook does make it clear that adventurers are exceptional people by definition. Much like not every priest is a cleric (and not every cleric has to be a priest), not every soldier or knight is a Fighter, not every musician is a Bard and not every pickpocket and cat burglar is a Rogue (plus, not every Rogue is a criminal.)
Paladins can power their spells and abilities simply on the power of swearing an oath and you figure that actual Gods are more limited in the power they grant than that?
Who says every schmuck that swears an oath is automatically given magic? Again, adventurers are exceptional people. It's entirely possible not everyone that trains to be a paladin actually manifests divine power.
To the OP question, I would think, like many (most, really) other things it’s going to be campaign dependent. In one I’m playing in, we put a ghost to rest by giving his body a proper funeral, complete with the ceremony spell. I don’t know if it was necessary, but it was pretty nice to have for rp reasons.
I’d say that probably true for most of its uses. Not necessary, but a fun layer for rp. And as rare as leveled clerics are, getting married by one of them would likely come to be rather important for most people. Maybe the peasants can just start shacking up and call themselves Married, but you can bet the king will want a proper cleric doing the job — but then which god does he want for the ritual? And who gets to perform the coming of age when his daughter is old enough? It opens a lot of rp and storytelling opportunities.
Again, does this mean that there are likewise no Mage Guilds or Thieves' Guilds? Or that the Bardic 'Colleges' are theory only, taught by those who barely even sing?
What do wizards and thieves have to do with clerics, gods, and organized religion? And yes, the Player's Handbook does make it clear that adventurers are exceptional people by definition. Much like not every priest is a cleric (and not every cleric has to be a priest), not every soldier or knight is a Fighter, not every musician is a Bard and not every pickpocket and cat burglar is a Rogue (plus, not every Rogue is a criminal.)
Paladins can power their spells and abilities simply on the power of swearing an oath and you figure that actual Gods are more limited in the power they grant than that?
Who says every schmuck that swears an oath is automatically given magic? Again, adventurers are exceptional people. It's entirely possible not everyone that trains to be a paladin actually manifests divine power.
The premise that leveled clerics are rare is based on a statement that major religions have a lot of bureaucracy and lay members, which is not the same thing as clerics being so rare that there are temples with none at all, not even level 1's.
Doctors are exceptional and relatively rare, even in hospitals. However neither precludes there being higher level doctors in the same hospital nor does the number of nurses or orderlies mean there are no doctors in that hospital, or even in a clinic.
'Trains to be a paladin.....' If PC's are pretty much the only ones levelled... who trained them? If PC's are the only 'exceptional' /leveled members of their societies, they conquer the civilized portions of the world pretty quick...
And yes, not everyone who can pick a pocket is trained as a rogue, nor everyone who can cast a spell trained as some form of mage, but since there is no way to manage the latter outside of a feat that cannot be learned simply by time spent or by being a variant human.... however, one would expect the leadership in any given branch office to be trained. Saying otherwise is like suggesting that a Ministry of Magic office in the Potter-verse is run by a muggle.
I mean, we have yet to establish a necessity for clerics, paladins, rogues, bards, etc in their respective organizations. Prayer doesn't require magic, so churches should be fine without clerics. Paladins can be taught their oaths by knights without magic. Not every pickpocket can stab good and vice versa. And 99% of singers can't cast spells with the songs bards sing (side note about bards, I actually think all members of their "collage" are bard class and it is like a loose network kind of thing).
You have to remember that most priests are not clerics. Maybe they have something like Magic Initiate sometimes, but PC class levels are rare. If actual spellcasting were an absolute requirement for cultural rituals, society would not function.
Where exactly are lay clerics (i.e. non-leveled clerics) described anywhere at all? In any edition, let alone 5e?
In SCAG in the religions of the realms section, obviously:
Those who serve as priests of a god aren’t necessarily clerics. Indeed, the power invested in clerics and other divine spellcasters by the gods is given out only rarely. The work of a priest is to serve one’s deity and that deity’s faithful, a task that doesn’t necessarily require the use of magic.
<facepalm>
And indeed! Even Mages Guilds consist entirely of non-caster bureaucrats. Thieve's guilds consist mostly of people who aren't necessarily experienced in breaking any sort of laws at all, let alone stealing anything....
Do they realize how absurdist it is, that 'priests' have no actual divine power granted to them in a world where Gods exist and hold worshipers to a great extent due to handing out such power and thus such services?
A priest's job isn't to do magic, a priest's job is to function as spiritual leader to a community. A mage's job is to do magic, a thief's job is to steal.
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For a first level spell, the ceremony spell is very expensive. The spell covers things such as last rights and wedding ceremonies, as well as a few other things. It was suggested in an unrelated thread that the spell is not necessary for last rights or weddings to be officially recognized by the Gods, or even just the God of the caster.
I disagree. After all, otherwise, what is the purpose of the spell on a societal level, exactly? Why even have the spell?
Last rights: Well if the person's corpse cannot be prevented from being animated without said spell, that certainly suggests that, without said spell, the divine rules allow that and with, the divine rules forbid it. That sounds pretty 'official' to me. With it, the burial is 'registered' in some way with the celestial bureaucracy and the soul thus protected from being stolen from the afterlife against its will.
Weddings: Similarly, if the spell is not needed to make weddings official in the eyes of the caster's faith, why would anyone bother with the spell? Unless it is actually needed, anyone wanting a fancy wedding could still hold a fancy wedding without said spell. If they could spend that 25gp any way they want, including simply paying the priest, who then could use the money to help run the church or to fund other church related projects, just as such fees work in real life, rather than the equivalent of literally burning the money.
Coming of Age: A nice buff, but can literally only be used on any given person once a lifetime and even then only when they are young enough... And again, does this mean that those who cannot afford such a ceremony are forever treated as what? Children? Lesser adults? Who writes this stuff?
Attonement: Particularly since alignment is nowhere near as important as it was even one edition ago and people can simply act differently and change on their own, what is the purpose to this at all? If a player is unable to play their character properly as their intended starting alignment, how is this spell going to change anything about their character's behavior anyway?
Dedication: A nice buff, but again... 'a creature can benefit from this rite only once.' So again, the once in a lifetime restriction.
So... what is the purpose of the 25gp cost, exactly? Did they start with a spell for making holy water and decide it should have more features, but left the cost in for everything, for some reason?
In 5e, even 25gp for holy water seems questionable....
Questions:
1) Particularly for last rights and wedding ceremonies, how 'necessary' is this spell for them to be considered legitimate under the faith of the caster?
2) Thoughts on the 25gp cost (his question might be delving into homebrew land, I know, since the cost is clearly RAW, but still... curious as to opinions on any possible reason it could be considered needed for play balance).
Holy Water: I suspect this is the main reason for the price of the spell. Holy Water in prior editions has traditionally cost 25gp per vial and and, particularly in earlier editions, been more useful.
I think the spell is completely unnecessary on a societal level. It's only benefit is providing the magical bonuses that each option offers. Otherwise a mundane (non-magical) religious ceremony will absolutely suffice.
Mega Yahtzee Thread:
Highest 41: brocker2001 (#11,285).
Yahtzee of 2's: Emmber (#36,161).
Lowest 9: JoeltheWalrus (#312), Emmber (#12,505) and Dertinus (#20,953).
The 'magical bonus' of funeral rights is to prevent the corpse from being transformed into an undead. That seems like a pretty important 'last right' to me.
Wedding rights give the couple an AC buff for a week, but only when they are close together. So even if the groom (or bride) was military and thus likely to need such a buff within the next week, this right exists only for couples that go into battle together? Seriously?
My take on it is that, since adventurers are exceptional people, and this is a spell primarily made available to adventuring paladins and clerics (im going with the assumption that not every NPC priest has to have a character class to do their job), that the Ceremony spell itself represents an exceptional occasion that is not only recognized, but blessed by the gods.
Peasants can get married in the eyes of their gods or in their names, but they are not the chosen heroes of legend that the gods have brought together to lay waste to the evils of the world as they are strengthened by their bond to each other, who have performed sacred and powerful rites to secure blessing over their union.
Likewise, commoners have funerals where they bid the soul to return to their gods, but they are not given a hero's burial and treated as the God's Honored Dead, who songs shall be sung of eternally.
That's how I see the Ceremony spell: it's a turning up to 11 on the usual rites to elevate them to the stuff of legend.
You have to remember that most priests are not clerics. Maybe they have something like Magic Initiate sometimes, but PC class levels are rare. If actual spellcasting were an absolute requirement for cultural rituals, society would not function.
Where exactly are lay clerics (i.e. non-leveled clerics) described anywhere at all? In any edition, let alone 5e?
I'd say their existence is implied by the necessity for hero clerics. It's not like when goblins come calling, villagers run to the cleric and say "quick! Cast shield of faith!"
Most priests are just lettered folk who've devoted study and service to a religion and serve a community in that capacity. You don't have to have magic to give a compelling sermon to your flock, or spread the word of your God, or give advise based on the holy teachings to those who come for it.
Divine magic is more of like a gift that's bestowed into the especially faithful for when the god doing the bestowing sees a need for their servant to have it. The lore doesn't suggest at all that priest=cleric and cleric=priest.
NPC's can clearly be leveled though and we are only talking about 1st level. This 'Only PC's can be leveled' thing is, well, pretty nonsensical. if nothing else, the sidekick rules prove it false. The PC's can still be 'the heroes' without making every NPC in the world a complete nobody.
And yet it costs 25gp and 60 minutes more than gentle repose which lasts 3 days longer (granted will be a rarer spell for common priests).
I'm pretty sure ceremony is a completely unrequired, extra formality used by the rich or on special occasion. Most commoners (basically every human that lives outside of cities) worship Chauntea the goddess of agriculture and motherhood. Neither marriage nor weddings are mentioned in descriptions of her faith. In fact marriage is hardly mentioned at all in the religions of Faerun. Seems it is mostly a tradition of the rich.
Funerals on the other hand get a bit more mention (there are no fewer than 2 gods of death after all). While I'm still pretty sure that those outside worshipers of specific gods will settle for a short prayer before burying at a local graveyard, I did find this in regard to payment:
And that about does it for ceremony I think. I'm pretty sure holy water can even be made without the spell for the same cost (though it consumes a slot without the ritual). Coming of age and atonement are again, probably mostly for the rich. And dedication only for future clergy.
In SCAG in the religions of the realms section, obviously:
<facepalm>
And indeed! Even Mages Guilds consist entirely of non-caster bureaucrats. Thieve's guilds consist mostly of people who aren't necessarily experienced in breaking any sort of laws at all, let alone stealing anything....
Do they realize how absurdist it is, that 'priests' have no actual divine power granted to them in a world where Gods exist and hold worshipers to a great extent due to handing out such power and thus such services?
Priests don't have magic powers in real life and still have huge followings. In a world where worship and prayers are very likely to be heard and acted upon, magic is even less necessary. Does it really matter whether the local priest personally has magic if the god they represent is still blessing you with good harvests?
Most D&D gods are not omnipotent or omniscient. Surely there's a limit to how much power they can grant, and if a priest misuses their divine power it could harm the faith. It makes sense for the gods to be selective.
Ok, addressing the lay priest argument, from the description of the cleric class, PHB
All that is saying is that there are lay members of any given clergy. This is true in RL religions too. It is not saying that acolytes perform marriage ceremonies. Those require fully ordained priests, at least in the eyes of the church. There has to be a large enough church or temple or shrine for that to apply too, for there to be such a deep hierarchy.
Again, does this mean that there are likewise no Mage Guilds or Thieves' Guilds? Or that the Bardic 'Colleges' are theory only, taught by those who barely even sing?
Paladins can power their spells and abilities simply on the power of swearing an oath and you figure that actual Gods are more limited in the power they grant than that?
“True clerics are rare in most hierarchies.” So again, if actual spellcasting were required for community rituals, society wouldn’t function.
What do wizards and thieves have to do with clerics, gods, and organized religion? And yes, the Player's Handbook does make it clear that adventurers are exceptional people by definition. Much like not every priest is a cleric (and not every cleric has to be a priest), not every soldier or knight is a Fighter, not every musician is a Bard and not every pickpocket and cat burglar is a Rogue (plus, not every Rogue is a criminal.)
Who says every schmuck that swears an oath is automatically given magic? Again, adventurers are exceptional people. It's entirely possible not everyone that trains to be a paladin actually manifests divine power.
To the OP question, I would think, like many (most, really) other things it’s going to be campaign dependent. In one I’m playing in, we put a ghost to rest by giving his body a proper funeral, complete with the ceremony spell. I don’t know if it was necessary, but it was pretty nice to have for rp reasons.
I’d say that probably true for most of its uses. Not necessary, but a fun layer for rp. And as rare as leveled clerics are, getting married by one of them would likely come to be rather important for most people. Maybe the peasants can just start shacking up and call themselves Married, but you can bet the king will want a proper cleric doing the job — but then which god does he want for the ritual? And who gets to perform the coming of age when his daughter is old enough? It opens a lot of rp and storytelling opportunities.
The premise that leveled clerics are rare is based on a statement that major religions have a lot of bureaucracy and lay members, which is not the same thing as clerics being so rare that there are temples with none at all, not even level 1's.
Doctors are exceptional and relatively rare, even in hospitals. However neither precludes there being higher level doctors in the same hospital nor does the number of nurses or orderlies mean there are no doctors in that hospital, or even in a clinic.
'Trains to be a paladin.....' If PC's are pretty much the only ones levelled... who trained them? If PC's are the only 'exceptional' /leveled members of their societies, they conquer the civilized portions of the world pretty quick...
And yes, not everyone who can pick a pocket is trained as a rogue, nor everyone who can cast a spell trained as some form of mage, but since there is no way to manage the latter outside of a feat that cannot be learned simply by time spent or by being a variant human.... however, one would expect the leadership in any given branch office to be trained. Saying otherwise is like suggesting that a Ministry of Magic office in the Potter-verse is run by a muggle.
I mean, we have yet to establish a necessity for clerics, paladins, rogues, bards, etc in their respective organizations. Prayer doesn't require magic, so churches should be fine without clerics. Paladins can be taught their oaths by knights without magic. Not every pickpocket can stab good and vice versa. And 99% of singers can't cast spells with the songs bards sing (side note about bards, I actually think all members of their "collage" are bard class and it is like a loose network kind of thing).
A priest's job isn't to do magic, a priest's job is to function as spiritual leader to a community. A mage's job is to do magic, a thief's job is to steal.