I am new to these forums so not sure if this belongs in AL or the rules forums since it is a question about AL's rules.
I just started back up playing after a long hiatus. The old DM moved and the only one doing tier 1 at my FLGS is a newish DM who started shortly after I took my break.
The issue was with playing on a grid and aoe spells specifically lines. He was using the xanathars guide to everything rules except not really. The easiest way to describe it without a diagram is that you could fire it like a bishop in chess nothing else.
According to the most recent FAQ I could find
Can I use the Variant and Optional Rules in the PHB/DMG? The only optional or variant rules available for use are: • Variant: Customizing Ability Scores (PHB) • Variant Human Traits (PHB) • Half-Elf Variants (SCAG) • Option: Human Languages (SCAG) • Tiefling Variants (SCAG) • Variant: Playing on a Grid (PBR) • Variant: Skills with Different Abilities (PHB)
Only the playing on a grid from the basic rules is allowed. You can't use the optional xanathar's rules where it gives 2 options on aoe on a grid. The rules for playing on a grid from the basic rules are
Variant: Playing on a Grid If you play out a combat using a square grid and miniatures or other tokens, follow these rules. Squares. Each square on the grid represents 5 feet. Speed. Rather than moving foot by foot, move square by square on the grid. This means you use your speed in 5-foot segments. This is particularly easy if you translate your speed into squares by dividing the speed by 5. For example, a speed of 30 feet translates into a speed of 6 squares. If you use a grid often, consider writing your speed in squares on your character sheet. Entering a Square. To enter a square, you must have at least 1 square of movement left, even if the square is diagonally adjacent to the square you’re in. (The rule for diagonal movement sacrifices realism for the sake of smooth play. The Dungeon Master’s Guide provides guidance on using a more realistic approach.) If a square costs extra movement, as a square of difficult terrain does, you must have enough movement left to pay for entering it. For example, you must have at least 2 squares of movement left to enter a square of difficult terrain. Corners. Diagonal movement can’t cross the corner of a wall, large tree, or other terrain feature that fills its space. Ranges. To determine the range on a grid between two things—whether creatures or objects—start counting squares from a square adjacent to one of them and stop counting in the space of the other one. Count by the shortest route.
And none of that changes the rules form the player's handbook in regards to aoe spells. So we would default to that. The line effect rules are
L i n e A line extends from its point of origin in a straight path up to its length and covers an area defined by its width. A line’s point of origin is not included in the line’s area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
The DM's guide has
Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal.
So say you are in a room 2x4
1234
5678
You are in position 7 choose the corner of 2367 as the point of origin and fire a lightning bolt directly towards the wall between position 1 and 5. You exclude the point of origin meaning you dont electrocute yourself, but half of the enemies squares in positions 1,2,5, and 6 are included therefore including them in the aoe.
I want the opinion of the rules forum since the adventurer's league one seems dead. Following Adventure's League Rules am I correct?
Your example doesn't make sense. Lightning Bolt originates from yourself (range of self, 100 ft line), you wouldn't be able to fire a lightning bolt that goes in between squares either. If you are in position 7 in that example you could choose to fire to: 2, 3, 4, 8, or 6-5. You would only affect the creatures in those squares. The line does not move between squares, affecting creatures on either side, it moves through squares and affects only creatures in those squares.
How do you reconcile your opinion with the dungeon master guide which directly say you choose an intersection of squares. look at page 251
Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
That directly contradicts what you are saying. I even quoted it in the question.
Nowhere does it say you can't fire it between lines in fact that is a definite option.
You are ignoring the spell in question. Lightning bolt originates from Self. You do not get to choose a point of origin for Lightning Bolt, therefore you cannot choose a corner of a square. That would be for a spell such as Fireball, where you choose a point within range to originate the spell. In that case, you would choose a vertice, and then make a 20 foot radius around that point.
Lightning Bolt must originate from "Self" and then travels in a straight, 5 foot wide line. Because a standard player character uses a 5 foot square in grid combat, that means that lightning bolt will travel straight from you in a line of 5 foot squares.
Now, if you just chose Lightning Bolt as a random example, there may be more discussion based on what spell you actually intend-- But if you're trying to say that Lightning Bolt works in the way you describe in your example under any grid combat rules provided by the PHB or DMG, you would be incorrect. The range of a spell is a very important component to how the spell works on a grid.
Seconded. The reasoning for this is that specific beats general. Spells might work generally as was quoted from the DMG, but lightning bolt specifically says starting from the caster and going in a straight line.
The rest of your post is a valid interpretation of the rules. However where are you getting this bit?
Because a standard player character uses a 5 foot square in grid combat, that means that lightning bolt will travel straight from you in a line of 5 foot squares.
Nowhere does it state that is the case
here is a diagram showing that even if we go with origin self you can still impact them.
Heck going with your method you can hit even more enemies.
Your image does not work, perhaps upload to an image-hosting site such as Imgur.
Here is my own.
Player A, the caster, is occupying space J10. There are 7 enemies (1-7) and one ally (B).
Assuming Player A does not move, and that they are positioned in a corner, the blue spaces show the valid directions for Lightning Bolt.
The spell originates from player A, and travels in a straight line, making the valid line a directly diagonal or orthogonal line. Targets 1 and 2, or targets 5 and 6 would be valid without striking an ally. Target 7 could be attacked, but Ally B would also be affected. Targets 3 and 4 are not in any applicable area of this spell, unless the caster moves to another space.
The rest of your post is a valid interpretation of the rules. However where are you getting this bit?
Because a standard player character uses a 5 foot square in grid combat, that means that lightning bolt will travel straight from you in a line of 5 foot squares.
Nowhere does it state that is the case
here is a diagram showing that even if we go with origin self you can still impact them.
Heck going with your method you can hit even more enemies.
edit to fix image
Hexes would be easier, but in the end, it's up to the GM to help you use your spell - provided said use is within the scope of the rules.
Meaning, you tell the GM that you want to hit as many targets as possible and he can (should) help work that out even if it doesn't conform exactly to the grid.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Ok that is a dead link for me but flipping to xanathars on the section for dm guidelines i found several diagrams labeled 2.1 through 2.6 with relevant rules section next to them. I am working off the assumption that this is the text and diagrams you are reffering to. If I am wrong tell me please. I don't want to have a misunderstanding.
That diagram only applies if you are using the optional method of tokens that applies in xanathars. However lets look at the season 8 faq I don't want problems with links so I'l quote it here
"The only optional or variant rules available for use are: • Variant: Customizing Ability Scores (PHB) • Variant Human Traits (PHB) • Half-Elf Variants (SCAG) • Option: Human Languages (SCAG) • Tiefling Variants (SCAG) • Variant: Playing on a Grid (PBR) • Variant: Skills with Different Abilities (PHB) Without specific campaign documentation, any other variant or optional rules, such as Variant: Quasit Familiar (MM) are not available for use."
When playing on a grid we use the playing on a grid rules from the player basic rules not xanathar's guide to everything. It says so right there to use the rules from that source not another. There is one minor exception to this being chapter 8 of the DMG detailed here.
"Can I Use the Dungeon Master’s Guide? DMs may use the content found in Chapter 8 of the DMG to help run the game."
Additionally unless a player has chosen xanathar's guide to everything as the phb+1 they cannot use those rules. This is outlined just sligthly farther down in the FAQ for season 8. I'l quote again so we don't have confusion.
"Allowed rules resources are books and other resources that can be used by players in creating, advancing, and playing their characters. We use the “PHB+1” rule outlined in the ALPG."
So even while playing your character you can't use optional rules from xanathar's guide to everything in Adventure's league according to the official campaign documentation.Unless that is your +1
The rules for using xanathars per the official blog
"These new rules (Simultaneous Effects, Falling, Sleep, Adamantine Weapons, Tying Knots, Tool Proficiencies, and Spellcasting) are not currently required for Adventurers League play at this time. However, a DM or player that has access to these new rules may use them at the DM’s discretion."
Your rules text only appears in Xanathar's guide to everything in a section unable to be used for Adventurers League by a player without access. And even then is always optional per the use of the word may. Also the template method gives nearly identical results to following the rules from the DMG barring weirdness with circles which aren't relevant to this discussion.
Using the token method violates the Season 8 FAQ and the Season 8 ALPG unless a player has chosen Xanathar's guide to everything and even then it is always optional and therefore always the player's choice.
So given that I haven't chosen Xanathar's Guide to everything as my +1 don't have access and even if i did could just say nah that sucks, How does applying the token method rules make any sense?
While I agree with that and use hexes for games such as 13th age and home games that unfortunately isn't an option for 5E adventurer's league. The basic rules assume and explicitly mention a square grid.
"If you play out a combat using a square grid and miniatures or other tokens, follow these rules. Squares. Each square on the grid represents 5 feet."
So while I agree with you that isn't an option in this case.
That's quite an interesting interpretation when the statement says, as you quote:
However, a DM or player that has access to these new rules may use them at the DM’s discretion.
A DM that has access to those rules may also use them, at the DM's discretion. So the DM used their discretion to apply those rules. Making the point moot, since the DM gets to choose to do that. ;) You as a player would need their approval, but the DM only needs their own.
Your image does not work, perhaps upload to an image-hosting site such as Imgur.
Here is my own.
Player A, the caster, is occupying space J10. There are 7 enemies (1-7) and one ally (B).
Assuming Player A does not move, and that they are positioned in a corner, the blue spaces show the valid directions for Lightning Bolt.
The spell originates from player A, and travels in a straight line, making the valid line a directly diagonal or orthogonal line. Targets 1 and 2, or targets 5 and 6 would be valid without striking an ally. Target 7 could be attacked, but Ally B would also be affected. Targets 3 and 4 are not in any applicable area of this spell, unless the caster moves to another space.
Your model is incorrect. As you can see your spell fluctuates from 7.07 ft to 0 ft its a 5 ft beam the entire way thru.
You also are able to hit 3 and 4. DnD is not chess. Your able to aim it from yourself. That doesn't mean you can only aim it in 8 directions. Draw a line from A to go thru 3 and 4 and make that line the width of a 5 ft square. By your example an Archer would not be able to attack 3 or 4 either. Self is anypoint on the square you are on. Nothing stops you from placing it on your corner to hit straight down the middle of two squares and since half covered by the spell attack they are hit.
Edit: Also if a DM ruled i couldn't hit 3 or 4 from that spot i would leave the group. Thats a terrible ruling.
PS I just realized that there are two methods in Xanathar's. Template and Token. Template is the way I posted and Token is the way you posted. Token seems alittle blocky and more boardgame than RPG.
I acknowledge everyone's analysis and good points. That being said -- especially in the case of fast games like DDAL -- I would give the DM the final word. For the last three years (in 5e) I've played a human storm sorcerer. She's also lining up her path for a Lightening Bolt and most of the time the DM just says something to the effect 'that looks about. None of your allies are in the line. Go for it." He could slow things down -- as well as I could -- and try to always hit just that last skeleton or kobold, but we move fast and it's great.
I know that this is a very specific example, instead of a good example of the whole system. That being said, I think the DM-PC process desribed above works. Getting bogged down in a few corner-case rules situations is just a waste of a good weekend night with friends, IMO.
When i dm i usually go for the tape measure aproach as every inch is equal to 5 feet so if you can measure a straight undisputed line to your target(s) and get at least half of its base in the aoe i would allow that.
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I am new to these forums so not sure if this belongs in AL or the rules forums since it is a question about AL's rules.
I just started back up playing after a long hiatus. The old DM moved and the only one doing tier 1 at my FLGS is a newish DM who started shortly after I took my break.
The issue was with playing on a grid and aoe spells specifically lines. He was using the xanathars guide to everything rules except not really. The easiest way to describe it without a diagram is that you could fire it like a bishop in chess nothing else.
According to the most recent FAQ I could find
Can I use the Variant and Optional Rules in the PHB/DMG? The only optional or variant rules available for use are: • Variant: Customizing Ability Scores (PHB) • Variant Human Traits (PHB) • Half-Elf Variants (SCAG) • Option: Human Languages (SCAG) • Tiefling Variants (SCAG) • Variant: Playing on a Grid (PBR) • Variant: Skills with Different Abilities (PHB)
Only the playing on a grid from the basic rules is allowed. You can't use the optional xanathar's rules where it gives 2 options on aoe on a grid. The rules for playing on a grid from the basic rules are
Variant: Playing on a Grid If you play out a combat using a square grid and miniatures or other tokens, follow these rules. Squares. Each square on the grid represents 5 feet. Speed. Rather than moving foot by foot, move square by square on the grid. This means you use your speed in 5-foot segments. This is particularly easy if you translate your speed into squares by dividing the speed by 5. For example, a speed of 30 feet translates into a speed of 6 squares. If you use a grid often, consider writing your speed in squares on your character sheet. Entering a Square. To enter a square, you must have at least 1 square of movement left, even if the square is diagonally adjacent to the square you’re in. (The rule for diagonal movement sacrifices realism for the sake of smooth play. The Dungeon Master’s Guide provides guidance on using a more realistic approach.) If a square costs extra movement, as a square of difficult terrain does, you must have enough movement left to pay for entering it. For example, you must have at least 2 squares of movement left to enter a square of difficult terrain. Corners. Diagonal movement can’t cross the corner of a wall, large tree, or other terrain feature that fills its space. Ranges. To determine the range on a grid between two things—whether creatures or objects—start counting squares from a square adjacent to one of them and stop counting in the space of the other one. Count by the shortest route.
And none of that changes the rules form the player's handbook in regards to aoe spells. So we would default to that. The line effect rules are
L i n e A line extends from its point of origin in a straight path up to its length and covers an area defined by its width. A line’s point of origin is not included in the line’s area of effect, unless you decide otherwise.
The DM's guide has
Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal.
So say you are in a room 2x4
1234
5678
You are in position 7 choose the corner of 2367 as the point of origin and fire a lightning bolt directly towards the wall between position 1 and 5. You exclude the point of origin meaning you dont electrocute yourself, but half of the enemies squares in positions 1,2,5, and 6 are included therefore including them in the aoe.
I want the opinion of the rules forum since the adventurer's league one seems dead. Following Adventure's League Rules am I correct?
Your example doesn't make sense. Lightning Bolt originates from yourself (range of self, 100 ft line), you wouldn't be able to fire a lightning bolt that goes in between squares either. If you are in position 7 in that example you could choose to fire to: 2, 3, 4, 8, or 6-5. You would only affect the creatures in those squares. The line does not move between squares, affecting creatures on either side, it moves through squares and affects only creatures in those squares.
How do you reconcile your opinion with the dungeon master guide which directly say you choose an intersection of squares. look at page 251
Choose an intersection of squares or hexes as the point of origin of an area of effect, then follow its rules as normal. If an area of effect is circular and covers at least half a square, it affects that square.
That directly contradicts what you are saying. I even quoted it in the question.
Nowhere does it say you can't fire it between lines in fact that is a definite option.
And that's why hexes are better ;)
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Seconded. The reasoning for this is that specific beats general. Spells might work generally as was quoted from the DMG, but lightning bolt specifically says starting from the caster and going in a straight line.
The rest of your post is a valid interpretation of the rules. However where are you getting this bit?
Because a standard player character uses a 5 foot square in grid combat, that means that lightning bolt will travel straight from you in a line of 5 foot squares.
Nowhere does it state that is the case
here is a diagram showing that even if we go with origin self you can still impact them.
Heck going with your method you can hit even more enemies.
edit to fix image
Your image does not work, perhaps upload to an image-hosting site such as Imgur.
Here is my own.
Player A, the caster, is occupying space J10. There are 7 enemies (1-7) and one ally (B).
Assuming Player A does not move, and that they are positioned in a corner, the blue spaces show the valid directions for Lightning Bolt.
The spell originates from player A, and travels in a straight line, making the valid line a directly diagonal or orthogonal line. Targets 1 and 2, or targets 5 and 6 would be valid without striking an ally. Target 7 could be attacked, but Ally B would also be affected. Targets 3 and 4 are not in any applicable area of this spell, unless the caster moves to another space.
Diagram 2.6 displays exactly as I show. Based on that, your image would not be a valid ruling for grid combat.
Hexes would be easier, but in the end, it's up to the GM to help you use your spell - provided said use is within the scope of the rules.
Meaning, you tell the GM that you want to hit as many targets as possible and he can (should) help work that out even if it doesn't conform exactly to the grid.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Ok that is a dead link for me but flipping to xanathars on the section for dm guidelines i found several diagrams labeled 2.1 through 2.6 with relevant rules section next to them. I am working off the assumption that this is the text and diagrams you are reffering to. If I am wrong tell me please. I don't want to have a misunderstanding.
That diagram only applies if you are using the optional method of tokens that applies in xanathars. However lets look at the season 8 faq I don't want problems with links so I'l quote it here
"The only optional or variant rules available for use are: • Variant: Customizing Ability Scores (PHB) • Variant Human Traits (PHB) • Half-Elf Variants (SCAG) • Option: Human Languages (SCAG) • Tiefling Variants (SCAG) • Variant: Playing on a Grid (PBR) • Variant: Skills with Different Abilities (PHB) Without specific campaign documentation, any other variant or optional rules, such as Variant: Quasit Familiar (MM) are not available for use."
When playing on a grid we use the playing on a grid rules from the player basic rules not xanathar's guide to everything. It says so right there to use the rules from that source not another. There is one minor exception to this being chapter 8 of the DMG detailed here.
"Can I Use the Dungeon Master’s Guide? DMs may use the content found in Chapter 8 of the DMG to help run the game."
Additionally unless a player has chosen xanathar's guide to everything as the phb+1 they cannot use those rules. This is outlined just sligthly farther down in the FAQ for season 8. I'l quote again so we don't have confusion.
"Allowed rules resources are books and other resources that can be used by players in creating, advancing, and playing their characters. We use the “PHB+1” rule outlined in the ALPG."
So even while playing your character you can't use optional rules from xanathar's guide to everything in Adventure's league according to the official campaign documentation.Unless that is your +1
The rules for using xanathars per the official blog
"These new rules (Simultaneous Effects, Falling, Sleep, Adamantine Weapons, Tying Knots, Tool Proficiencies, and Spellcasting) are not currently required for Adventurers League play at this time. However, a DM or player that has access to these new rules may use them at the DM’s discretion."
Your rules text only appears in Xanathar's guide to everything in a section unable to be used for Adventurers League by a player without access. And even then is always optional per the use of the word may. Also the template method gives nearly identical results to following the rules from the DMG barring weirdness with circles which aren't relevant to this discussion.
Using the token method violates the Season 8 FAQ and the Season 8 ALPG unless a player has chosen Xanathar's guide to everything and even then it is always optional and therefore always the player's choice.
So given that I haven't chosen Xanathar's Guide to everything as my +1 don't have access and even if i did could just say nah that sucks, How does applying the token method rules make any sense?
While I agree with that and use hexes for games such as 13th age and home games that unfortunately isn't an option for 5E adventurer's league. The basic rules assume and explicitly mention a square grid.
"If you play out a combat using a square grid and miniatures or other tokens, follow these rules. Squares. Each square on the grid represents 5 feet."
So while I agree with you that isn't an option in this case.
That's quite an interesting interpretation when the statement says, as you quote:
A DM that has access to those rules may also use them, at the DM's discretion. So the DM used their discretion to apply those rules. Making the point moot, since the DM gets to choose to do that. ;) You as a player would need their approval, but the DM only needs their own.
Your model is incorrect. As you can see your spell fluctuates from 7.07 ft to 0 ft its a 5 ft beam the entire way thru.
You also are able to hit 3 and 4. DnD is not chess. Your able to aim it from yourself. That doesn't mean you can only aim it in 8 directions. Draw a line from A to go thru 3 and 4 and make that line the width of a 5 ft square. By your example an Archer would not be able to attack 3 or 4 either. Self is anypoint on the square you are on. Nothing stops you from placing it on your corner to hit straight down the middle of two squares and since half covered by the spell attack they are hit.
Edit: Also if a DM ruled i couldn't hit 3 or 4 from that spot i would leave the group. Thats a terrible ruling.
PS I just realized that there are two methods in Xanathar's. Template and Token. Template is the way I posted and Token is the way you posted. Token seems alittle blocky and more boardgame than RPG.
If DM rules that the line can not move out of bishop reach if you cast it diagonal, there Is nothing you can do.
It is on his call to say if it is ok or not. IT just happend to me yesterday.
I suffered opportunity attack in orther to get better position and then I hit just 2 instead of 3...
Create line, radius and square rulers
I acknowledge everyone's analysis and good points. That being said -- especially in the case of fast games like DDAL -- I would give the DM the final word. For the last three years (in 5e) I've played a human storm sorcerer. She's also lining up her path for a Lightening Bolt and most of the time the DM just says something to the effect 'that looks about. None of your allies are in the line. Go for it." He could slow things down -- as well as I could -- and try to always hit just that last skeleton or kobold, but we move fast and it's great.
I know that this is a very specific example, instead of a good example of the whole system. That being said, I think the DM-PC process desribed above works. Getting bogged down in a few corner-case rules situations is just a waste of a good weekend night with friends, IMO.
IT
People for line of sight and line spells, get one those waving laser pointers. The ones that produce a line instead of a dot.
No Gaming is Better than Bad Gaming.
When i dm i usually go for the tape measure aproach as every inch is equal to 5 feet so if you can measure a straight undisputed line to your target(s) and get at least half of its base in the aoe i would allow that.