There has been a lot of comment on the issues faced by Wizards with the season 8 AL gold limitations. They are significantly squeezed for gold to copy spells and purchase material components. This limits the wizard in certain ways and makes it more challenging to complete a spell book and they have to be more selective with spells. I am playing a wizard and it is challenging but not insurmountable.
However, the bigger problem I have encountered is with clerics. When playing a cleric, I like to be able to help party members. It can be a great melee and support class but they have an entire set of spells designed to keep other players alive and remove status effects. The problem is that many of these iconic clerical spells which are part of playing a cleric character are just not usable in AL due to consumed material component costs. The cleric doesn't even get anything out of this, the cleric gets to cast spells to help other players, to bring characters back in the middle of an adventure ... except they don't since no season 8 character can afford it.
Lesser Restoration: 2nd level - no material cost
Greater Restoration: 5th level - 100gp of diamond dust (consumed)
Revivify: 3rd level - 300gp of diamonds (consumed)
True Resurrection: 9th level - 25,000gp of diamonds (consumed)
Between buying a couple of healing potions and mundane gear, most tier 2 characters don't have the 300gp needed to purchase the material component for the revivfy spell let alone Raise Dead. The cleric doesn't usually have the gold to even buy or stock the material components themselves. Even the 100gp for greater restoration can be a stretch depending on what the character may have spent their money on.
Yes ... these can all be purchased for treasure points from spellcasting services at the end of the module. However, one role of the cleric (that some folks enjoy playing) is to be able to cast spells to help other characters in dire straits but the current gold limits place such significant constraints on gold that clerics just can't be played that way since they don't have the resources to cast the spells needed to save party members ... they just get to watch them die since they can't afford the material costs for the spells. I think this is an unfortunate role playing constraint placed on the class as a side effect of the season 8 monetary system.
My suggested fix would be to reduce the cost of material components for casting spells and possibly also reduce the spell copying costs for wizards. This would alleviate probably the worst short falls of the limited gold system while still keeping gold a relatively scarce resource.
P.S.
I've played AL for a couple of years now and overall I like the season 8 changes to advancement, treasure and even gold. However, there are specific instances where gold costs in the rules are mandated at values that do not fit with the gold limitations in the current season 8 rules which makes it more difficult to role play certain classes and I think these should be adjusted to be consistent with the character income.
Most of my characters don't actually need any more gold that the AL season 8 rules provide .. they buy a few healing potions, some additional mundane items and the rest is handled by treasure points .. but wizards and particularly clerics have difficulty fulfilling their roles as a walking spell compendium in one case and a party healer in the other just due to spell costs.
It might be easier from an administration POV to just declare that no spell components are consumed in AL. Just looking a these resurrection spells it seems like this could also be an acceptable solution, but I don't know if it breaks anything else (besides lore).
Edit: I just thought of a better solution which is to make diamonds purchasable with TCP and reduce the "cost" there. If a raise dead scroll and spellcasting services can be has for x TCP (I don't actually know the cost), then it must only cost x/2ish for the material components.
I agree with your points about gold for both wizards and clerics. However everyone keeps skipping heavy armor for both fighters and clerics. A set of plate mail cost 1500 GP and if you just rely on the gold you get when leveling you'll be level 11 (tier 3) when you can finally afford plate. Assuming normal progress at 11th level you'll have 1675 + starting gold. This assumes you haven't purchased any additional mundane gear or healing potions.
Since you made it all the way to 11 with chain mail or realistically splint since it is 200 GP, which means you are 12th level when you finally have enough gold to afford plate.
Overall this mean why even bother buying plate when for only the 'cost' of one more level you can get plate +1.
For practical use, the party can split the cost. Personally, I would be *willing* to pay in, but not if that paying becomes either expected and especially not if it's insisted upon.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Untrained and undisciplined troops take heavy casualties; trained and disciplined troops inflict them."
Players do not earn enough money on their own to pay for these components; 1,000gp here, 1,000gp there adds up. Even the 1st level spell Identify needs 100gp pearl which means unless the player sells off everything they own, they cannot cast the spell until they are 3rd level (75gp for becoming 2nd, and an additional 75gp at 3rd).
Players cannot "pitch in" to buy components. No items or money can be permanently traded; only temporarily at the table. Which means the caster needs to raise the whole 1,000gp for the Scrying spell, even though everyone benefits.
The solution isn't to lower prices, but allow characters a larger, maximum value of gold per level.
Consider this; instead of saying a character always gets 75gp for going to 2nd level they instead keep all the gold they find UP TO A SET LIMIT. For instance, if a character find a chest with 45gp, they get 45gp. If they find a pearl worth 100gp they keep the pearl. But the limit for leveling up for Tier 1 would be, as an example, 125gp. This character found 145gp worth of treasure so they would lose 20gp (cost of living, tithes, pickpockets, what have you). This still keeps characters from amassing huge amounts of money, but it solves the problem of there being no money in any chests. Players could once again FIND TREASURE!
The other problem it tougher, as it's ripe with opportunity to break the system if characters are allowed to "gift" money to another player. Most of us see it as pitching in to buy something expensive, but with no over site, a person could make infinite 1st level characters that start with 10gp and "gift" it to one bank character. A millionaire, 10gp at a time. But once again, with a LIMIT on how much as character can earn per level, this becomes manageable. No 1st level character can possess more than 125gp (as the example) of non-magical treasure. So loose cash, components, mundane weapon and armor, etc. I just don't want to be in the position of having to throw away a health potion because that extra 50gp puts the character over the limit.
The limits would go up by Tier obviously. But with a slight bump in cash per level with hard limits on maximum it should bring back a little joy.
P.S. it would be up to the player to know their limit. If characters find 500gp in a sock drawer, everyone gets an equal share, but some characters might not keep all of their share as they had already met their limit.
For practical use, the party can split the cost. Personally, I would be *willing* to pay in, but not if that paying becomes either expected and especially not if it's insisted upon.
I agree that this should be a split party cost thing. It's all part of preparation, the same as buying rations and other needed goods before going out on an adventure. The whole party benefits from this preparation and such a burden shouldn't fall to one player. But, a party should also be making wise choices enough so that the NEED for these materials is not as great. Accidents aside, how often, really, are these spells going to be needed? At least in my experiences, these spells haven't been needed. Plus there's always the option to Spare the Dying or Gentle Repose and go ask for aid from your faction.
For practical use, the party can split the cost. Personally, I would be *willing* to pay in, but not if that paying becomes either expected and especially not if it's insisted upon.
I agree that this should be a split party cost thing. It's all part of preparation, the same as buying rations and other needed goods before going out on an adventure. The whole party benefits from this preparation and such a burden shouldn't fall to one player. But, a party should also be making wise choices enough so that the NEED for these materials is not as great. Accidents aside, how often, really, are these spells going to be needed? At least in my experiences, these spells haven't been needed. Plus there's always the option to Spare the Dying or Gentle Repose and go ask for aid from your faction.
Just to clarify but there is no faction aid in season 8 AL. Factions were significantly toned down and mostly provide role playing flavor now.
In addition, the gold rules for season 8 give 75gp/level in tier 1 and 150gp/level in tier 2. A diamond for revivify is 300gp or the equivalent of four levels of advancement in tier 1. Assuming characters spend some money on mundane gear like equipment and armor then they don't have any money left to even share the cost of material components so the dead character usually has to wait until the adventure is complete and then spend treasure points (possibly incurring treasure point debt) to purchase a scroll of raise dead to restore their character.
Luckily, deaths are relatively infrequent as you mention but I have seen it happen and the season 8 treasure rules make it very difficult for the cleric in the party to bring them back since most can't afford it.
i feel that TCP for Gold should scale up as your character levels up. That would allow casters to get the consumables they need and allow martials the ability to get good potions they may want.
ie:
Tier 1: 1 TCP for 50 gp Tier 2: 1 TCP for 100 gp Tier 3: 1 TCP for 250 gp Tier 4: 1 TCP for 500gp
or something along that line. the fact that it's always 1 tcp for 50 gp regardless of tier of TCP seems kind of imbalanced. I'm working on my second AL character now, i was playing a barb that i recently got to Tier 4, now i'm playing a cleric that just got to tier 3 and i'm really noticing the gold issue, it's not that bad since we're in DMM and we find a lot of treasure that we can just sell in session and buy consumables however i think that's slightly bending the AL rules.. I just learned heroes feast and will have to level up 1 more time to be able to get 1 chalice to be able to use it, and then i can only cast it once lol.
The fact that it's always 1 tcp for 50 gp regardless of tier of TCP seems kind of imbalanced. I'm working on my second AL character now, i was playing a barb that i recently got to Tier 4, now i'm playing a cleric that just got to tier 3 and i'm really noticing the gold issue, it's not that bad since we're in DMM and we find a lot of treasure that we can just sell in session and buy consumables however i think that's slightly bending the AL rules.. I just learned heroes feast and will have to level up 1 more time to be able to get 1 chalice to be able to use it, and then i can only cast it once lol.
The complaint from almost all the previous seasons about gold is there was nothing to spend it on. Give back the gold and address that by adding gold sinks. Dragon Heist gave a perfect example of a good long term gold sink, the Inn. It wouldn't be difficult to expand that in AL to thieves guilds, wizard lab, armory, followers, groves, temples, etcetera.
Overall I agree, Treasure Points to GP conversions should be tier specific. That potion of healing at tier 1 (TP 1 = 50gp = 2d4+2 healing) means not a lot at tier 4. If they don't want people downing 5- 15 potions of healing between encounters in tier 3 and 4 then place a limit on the number of potions per tier a character can use each rest or even each day.
needs to be more along the lines of what a character would get when leveling within that tier.
Players do not earn enough money on their own to pay for these components; 1,000gp here, 1,000gp there adds up. Even the 1st level spell Identify needs 100gp pearl which means unless the player sells off everything they own, they cannot cast the spell until they are 3rd level (75gp for becoming 2nd, and an additional 75gp at 3rd).
Players cannot "pitch in" to buy components. No items or money can be permanently traded; only temporarily at the table. Which means the caster needs to raise the whole 1,000gp for the Scrying spell, even though everyone benefits.
The solution isn't to lower prices, but allow characters a larger, maximum value of gold per level.
Consider this; instead of saying a character always gets 75gp for going to 2nd level they instead keep all the gold they find UP TO A SET LIMIT. For instance, if a character find a chest with 45gp, they get 45gp. If they find a pearl worth 100gp they keep the pearl. But the limit for leveling up for Tier 1 would be, as an example, 125gp. This character found 145gp worth of treasure so they would lose 20gp (cost of living, tithes, pickpockets, what have you). This still keeps characters from amassing huge amounts of money, but it solves the problem of there being no money in any chests. Players could once again FIND TREASURE!
Monetary Rewards. Your character keeps an equal share of whatever treasure your group found during the session up to the session’s gp cap; anything in excess of the gp cap is lost. The gp cap is determined by multiplying the number of treasure checkpoints you earned at the end of the session by the multiplier for your character’s tier (see table, below). For example, if a 3rd level character’s share of the gp found by the group is 150 gp, and they earned four treasure checkpoints for the session, the character would keep 100 gp (4 checkpoints x 25 gp per checkpoint); the remaining 50 gp is lost. Any treasure found during a session can’t be spent until the session ends and the gp cap has been applied.
There has been a lot of comment on the issues faced by Wizards with the season 8 AL gold limitations. They are significantly squeezed for gold to copy spells and purchase material components. This limits the wizard in certain ways and makes it more challenging to complete a spell book and they have to be more selective with spells. I am playing a wizard and it is challenging but not insurmountable.
However, the bigger problem I have encountered is with clerics. When playing a cleric, I like to be able to help party members. It can be a great melee and support class but they have an entire set of spells designed to keep other players alive and remove status effects. The problem is that many of these iconic clerical spells which are part of playing a cleric character are just not usable in AL due to consumed material component costs. The cleric doesn't even get anything out of this, the cleric gets to cast spells to help other players, to bring characters back in the middle of an adventure ... except they don't since no season 8 character can afford it.
Lesser Restoration: 2nd level - no material cost
Greater Restoration: 5th level - 100gp of diamond dust (consumed)
Revivify: 3rd level - 300gp of diamonds (consumed)
Raise Dead: 5th level - 500gp diamond (consumed)
Resurrection: 7th level - 1,000gp diamond (consumed)
True Resurrection: 9th level - 25,000gp of diamonds (consumed)
Between buying a couple of healing potions and mundane gear, most tier 2 characters don't have the 300gp needed to purchase the material component for the revivfy spell let alone Raise Dead. The cleric doesn't usually have the gold to even buy or stock the material components themselves. Even the 100gp for greater restoration can be a stretch depending on what the character may have spent their money on.
Yes ... these can all be purchased for treasure points from spellcasting services at the end of the module. However, one role of the cleric (that some folks enjoy playing) is to be able to cast spells to help other characters in dire straits but the current gold limits place such significant constraints on gold that clerics just can't be played that way since they don't have the resources to cast the spells needed to save party members ... they just get to watch them die since they can't afford the material costs for the spells. I think this is an unfortunate role playing constraint placed on the class as a side effect of the season 8 monetary system.
My suggested fix would be to reduce the cost of material components for casting spells and possibly also reduce the spell copying costs for wizards. This would alleviate probably the worst short falls of the limited gold system while still keeping gold a relatively scarce resource.
P.S.
I've played AL for a couple of years now and overall I like the season 8 changes to advancement, treasure and even gold. However, there are specific instances where gold costs in the rules are mandated at values that do not fit with the gold limitations in the current season 8 rules which makes it more difficult to role play certain classes and I think these should be adjusted to be consistent with the character income.
Most of my characters don't actually need any more gold that the AL season 8 rules provide .. they buy a few healing potions, some additional mundane items and the rest is handled by treasure points .. but wizards and particularly clerics have difficulty fulfilling their roles as a walking spell compendium in one case and a party healer in the other just due to spell costs.
It might be easier from an administration POV to just declare that no spell components are consumed in AL. Just looking a these resurrection spells it seems like this could also be an acceptable solution, but I don't know if it breaks anything else (besides lore).
Edit: I just thought of a better solution which is to make diamonds purchasable with TCP and reduce the "cost" there. If a raise dead scroll and spellcasting services can be has for x TCP (I don't actually know the cost), then it must only cost x/2ish for the material components.
I agree with your points about gold for both wizards and clerics. However everyone keeps skipping heavy armor for both fighters and clerics. A set of plate mail cost 1500 GP and if you just rely on the gold you get when leveling you'll be level 11 (tier 3) when you can finally afford plate. Assuming normal progress at 11th level you'll have 1675 + starting gold. This assumes you haven't purchased any additional mundane gear or healing potions.
Since you made it all the way to 11 with chain mail or realistically splint since it is 200 GP, which means you are 12th level when you finally have enough gold to afford plate.
Overall this mean why even bother buying plate when for only the 'cost' of one more level you can get plate +1.
For practical use, the party can split the cost. Personally, I would be *willing* to pay in, but not if that paying becomes either expected and especially not if it's insisted upon.
"Untrained and undisciplined troops take heavy casualties; trained and disciplined troops inflict them."
- BG Jack Rogers, USA
Here are the big obstacles as I seem them:
The solution isn't to lower prices, but allow characters a larger, maximum value of gold per level.
Consider this; instead of saying a character always gets 75gp for going to 2nd level they instead keep all the gold they find UP TO A SET LIMIT. For instance, if a character find a chest with 45gp, they get 45gp. If they find a pearl worth 100gp they keep the pearl. But the limit for leveling up for Tier 1 would be, as an example, 125gp. This character found 145gp worth of treasure so they would lose 20gp (cost of living, tithes, pickpockets, what have you). This still keeps characters from amassing huge amounts of money, but it solves the problem of there being no money in any chests. Players could once again FIND TREASURE!
The other problem it tougher, as it's ripe with opportunity to break the system if characters are allowed to "gift" money to another player. Most of us see it as pitching in to buy something expensive, but with no over site, a person could make infinite 1st level characters that start with 10gp and "gift" it to one bank character. A millionaire, 10gp at a time. But once again, with a LIMIT on how much as character can earn per level, this becomes manageable. No 1st level character can possess more than 125gp (as the example) of non-magical treasure. So loose cash, components, mundane weapon and armor, etc. I just don't want to be in the position of having to throw away a health potion because that extra 50gp puts the character over the limit.
The limits would go up by Tier obviously. But with a slight bump in cash per level with hard limits on maximum it should bring back a little joy.
P.S. it would be up to the player to know their limit. If characters find 500gp in a sock drawer, everyone gets an equal share, but some characters might not keep all of their share as they had already met their limit.
I agree that this should be a split party cost thing. It's all part of preparation, the same as buying rations and other needed goods before going out on an adventure. The whole party benefits from this preparation and such a burden shouldn't fall to one player. But, a party should also be making wise choices enough so that the NEED for these materials is not as great. Accidents aside, how often, really, are these spells going to be needed? At least in my experiences, these spells haven't been needed. Plus there's always the option to Spare the Dying or Gentle Repose and go ask for aid from your faction.
Family Traditions [Campaign Log] COMPLETED
Cursed Islands [Campaign Log] IN-PROGRESS
The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails.William Arthur Ward
Just to clarify but there is no faction aid in season 8 AL. Factions were significantly toned down and mostly provide role playing flavor now.
In addition, the gold rules for season 8 give 75gp/level in tier 1 and 150gp/level in tier 2. A diamond for revivify is 300gp or the equivalent of four levels of advancement in tier 1. Assuming characters spend some money on mundane gear like equipment and armor then they don't have any money left to even share the cost of material components so the dead character usually has to wait until the adventure is complete and then spend treasure points (possibly incurring treasure point debt) to purchase a scroll of raise dead to restore their character.
Luckily, deaths are relatively infrequent as you mention but I have seen it happen and the season 8 treasure rules make it very difficult for the cleric in the party to bring them back since most can't afford it.
i feel that TCP for Gold should scale up as your character levels up. That would allow casters to get the consumables they need and allow martials the ability to get good potions they may want.
ie:
Tier 1: 1 TCP for 50 gp
Tier 2: 1 TCP for 100 gp
Tier 3: 1 TCP for 250 gp
Tier 4: 1 TCP for 500gp
or something along that line. the fact that it's always 1 tcp for 50 gp regardless of tier of TCP seems kind of imbalanced. I'm working on my second AL character now, i was playing a barb that i recently got to Tier 4, now i'm playing a cleric that just got to tier 3 and i'm really noticing the gold issue, it's not that bad since we're in DMM and we find a lot of treasure that we can just sell in session and buy consumables however i think that's slightly bending the AL rules.. I just learned heroes feast and will have to level up 1 more time to be able to get 1 chalice to be able to use it, and then i can only cast it once lol.
The complaint from almost all the previous seasons about gold is there was nothing to spend it on. Give back the gold and address that by adding gold sinks. Dragon Heist gave a perfect example of a good long term gold sink, the Inn. It wouldn't be difficult to expand that in AL to thieves guilds, wizard lab, armory, followers, groves, temples, etcetera.
Overall I agree, Treasure Points to GP conversions should be tier specific. That potion of healing at tier 1 (TP 1 = 50gp = 2d4+2 healing) means not a lot at tier 4. If they don't want people downing 5- 15 potions of healing between encounters in tier 3 and 4 then place a limit on the number of potions per tier a character can use each rest or even each day.
needs to be more along the lines of what a character would get when leveling within that tier.
.
Called it!
Highlights from Season 9 changes: