I think this discussion a symptom of not understanding that Initiative is not just for combat; it is for any situation where timing matters.
As soon as someone starts using words like "readying", it means that timing of actions matters. We should make a DEX check (which is all Inititive is) to see who goes first, then all take turns.
If there is no timing, if it doesn't matter the order in which actions happen, then we don't need turns and initiative and we just resolve the actions.
Another solution could have been to simply allow creature initiating combat to automatically be at the top of the initiative order so it can resolve declared action. Roughly something like this:
Surprise. If you surprise any combatant by starting combat unsuspectedly, your initiative count is automatically 1 above the highest initiative roll.
I like that one. Its the big nerf that the game designers wanted, yet still gives the unseen ambusher the first action. Only one action, but at least its an action. This might be my first 5.24 home brew change.
I think this discussion a symptom of not understanding that Initiative is not just for combat; it is for any situation where timing matters.
As soon as someone starts using words like "readying", it means that timing of actions matters. We should make a DEX check (which is all Inititive is) to see who goes first, then all take turns.
If there is no timing, if it doesn't matter the order in which actions happen, then we don't need turns and initiative and we just resolve the actions.
Theoretically good. It will be a huge headache for DMs facing players who will dodge, or cast defensive spells as soon as initiative is rolled, even though the presence of an unseen attacker has not become known. Adding in the 2014 surprised condition until combat is initiated would solve the problem, but also creates the previously mentioned issue of the high dex/initiative characters going last in combat. And an even bigger issue if using the group initiative rules that cause all like NPCs to share the same initiative. On goblin gets nervous and launches a surprise attack and every goblin goes first.
Theoretically good. It will be a huge headache for DMs facing players who will dodge, or cast defensive spells as soon as initiative is rolled, even though the presence of an unseen attacker has not become known.
With the 2024 surprise condition that shouldn't be an issue. It is very unlikely that all PCs will go first despite rolling initiative with advantage, and even if one of them does, the enemies can choose to attack those who didn't dodge, making the dodge mostly pointless.
Adding in the 2014 surprised condition until combat is initiated would solve the problem, but also creates the previously mentioned issue of the high dex/initiative characters going last in combat.
Did you mean to say 2024? Because with the 2014 surprise condition high DEX characters don't go last in combat, they still go first, they are just unable to act on their first turn. A high DEX roll is still somewhat rewarded, since you get your reaction (Opportunity Attack, Counterspell, Shield spell, etc.) early.
If you meant to say with 2024 it's a problem.. yeah, sort of, but in the grand scheme of things it still works out the same as in 2014. There isn't a big difference between
2014: (Surprised Rogue who can't do anything) - (Ambushing Monster) - //new round// - (Rogue who can now do something) - ...
2024: (Ambushing Monster) - (Rogue who can do something) - // new round // - ...
Functionally they are identical. The main difference is that there is a chance that the Rogue can actually go before the monster in 2024.
And an even bigger issue if using the group initiative rules that cause all like NPCs to share the same initiative. On goblin gets nervous and launches a surprise attack and every goblin goes first.
I'm not sure what exactly this hypothetical scenario is, but I think DMs can easily find ways around that. If all the goblins were prepared for a fight and therefore aren't surprised, and the PCs didn't expect a fight and therefore are surprised, then I think it's fair for all goblins to go first. The PCs are surprised and the goblins aren't.
If the scenario is that the other goblins also did not expect a fight, and there was only 1 goblin who single-handedly decided to surprise everyone, then as a DM I would simply give the surprised goblin a separate initiative. If this goblin had separate motivations and intentions from the other goblins, they probably even deserve to be a named NPC and as such not be lumped in with the generic "Goblin" entry in the initiative.
Theoretically good. It will be a huge headache for DMs facing players who will dodge, or cast defensive spells as soon as initiative is rolled, even though the presence of an unseen attacker has not become known.
With the 2024 surprise condition that shouldn't be an issue. It is very unlikely that all PCs will go first despite rolling initiative with advantage, and even if one of them does, the enemies can choose to attack those who didn't dodge, making the dodge mostly pointless.
Adding in the 2014 surprised condition until combat is initiated would solve the problem, but also creates the previously mentioned issue of the high dex/initiative characters going last in combat.
Did you mean to say 2024? Because with the 2014 surprise condition high DEX characters don't go last in combat, they still go first, they are just unable to act on their first turn. A high DEX roll is still somewhat rewarded, since you get your reaction (Opportunity Attack, Counterspell, Shield spell, etc.) early.
If you meant to say with 2024 it's a problem.. yeah, sort of, but in the grand scheme of things it still works out the same as in 2014. There isn't a big difference between
2014: (Surprised Rogue who can't do anything) - (Ambushing Monster) - //new round// - (Rogue who can now do something) - ...
2024: (Ambushing Monster) - (Rogue who can do something) - // new round // - ...
Functionally they are identical. The main difference is that there is a chance that the Rogue can actually go before the monster in 2024.
And an even bigger issue if using the group initiative rules that cause all like NPCs to share the same initiative. On goblin gets nervous and launches a surprise attack and every goblin goes first.
I'm not sure what exactly this hypothetical scenario is, but I think DMs can easily find ways around that. If all the goblins were prepared for a fight and therefore aren't surprised, and the PCs didn't expect a fight and therefore are surprised, then I think it's fair for all goblins to go first. The PCs are surprised and the goblins aren't.
If the scenario is that the other goblins also did not expect a fight, and there was only 1 goblin who single-handedly decided to surprise everyone, then as a DM I would simply give the surprised goblin a separate initiative. If this goblin had separate motivations and intentions from the other goblins, they probably even deserve to be a named NPC and as such not be lumped in with the generic "Goblin" entry in the initiative.
I was replying about some proposed home brew rules, not the actual 2024 rules. While the proposed changes to the rules had some value for some situations, they still created problems in other situations.
The 2024 surprise rules are good for shootouts in a spaghetti western style situation, but are a complete failure during an ambush. I don't like to create home brew rules because it is confusing for players, but I'm not sure if I can get on board with the 2024 surprise rules.
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I think this discussion a symptom of not understanding that Initiative is not just for combat; it is for any situation where timing matters.
As soon as someone starts using words like "readying", it means that timing of actions matters. We should make a DEX check (which is all Inititive is) to see who goes first, then all take turns.
If there is no timing, if it doesn't matter the order in which actions happen, then we don't need turns and initiative and we just resolve the actions.
I like that one. Its the big nerf that the game designers wanted, yet still gives the unseen ambusher the first action. Only one action, but at least its an action. This might be my first 5.24 home brew change.
Theoretically good. It will be a huge headache for DMs facing players who will dodge, or cast defensive spells as soon as initiative is rolled, even though the presence of an unseen attacker has not become known. Adding in the 2014 surprised condition until combat is initiated would solve the problem, but also creates the previously mentioned issue of the high dex/initiative characters going last in combat. And an even bigger issue if using the group initiative rules that cause all like NPCs to share the same initiative. On goblin gets nervous and launches a surprise attack and every goblin goes first.
With the 2024 surprise condition that shouldn't be an issue. It is very unlikely that all PCs will go first despite rolling initiative with advantage, and even if one of them does, the enemies can choose to attack those who didn't dodge, making the dodge mostly pointless.
Did you mean to say 2024? Because with the 2014 surprise condition high DEX characters don't go last in combat, they still go first, they are just unable to act on their first turn. A high DEX roll is still somewhat rewarded, since you get your reaction (Opportunity Attack, Counterspell, Shield spell, etc.) early.
If you meant to say with 2024 it's a problem.. yeah, sort of, but in the grand scheme of things it still works out the same as in 2014. There isn't a big difference between
Functionally they are identical. The main difference is that there is a chance that the Rogue can actually go before the monster in 2024.
I'm not sure what exactly this hypothetical scenario is, but I think DMs can easily find ways around that. If all the goblins were prepared for a fight and therefore aren't surprised, and the PCs didn't expect a fight and therefore are surprised, then I think it's fair for all goblins to go first. The PCs are surprised and the goblins aren't.
If the scenario is that the other goblins also did not expect a fight, and there was only 1 goblin who single-handedly decided to surprise everyone, then as a DM I would simply give the surprised goblin a separate initiative. If this goblin had separate motivations and intentions from the other goblins, they probably even deserve to be a named NPC and as such not be lumped in with the generic "Goblin" entry in the initiative.
I was replying about some proposed home brew rules, not the actual 2024 rules. While the proposed changes to the rules had some value for some situations, they still created problems in other situations.
The 2024 surprise rules are good for shootouts in a spaghetti western style situation, but are a complete failure during an ambush. I don't like to create home brew rules because it is confusing for players, but I'm not sure if I can get on board with the 2024 surprise rules.