hello guys. Can you please help me? I have a lvl 17. team we play the 2014 dnd at the moment and one of my player wants to use true polymorph on himself to polymorph to an adult gold dragon, what he can do i guess becouse the dragon challange raiting is 17. but the dragon have a change shape ablility wich says, he can polymorphs into any humanoid (or beast) that has a challange raiting no higher than its own. So he want to turn himself to a gold dragon and keep his old humanoid character as well becouse he can turn back to a lvl 17 humanoid any time. is this possiple?
The player can cast True Polymorph to turn into an adult gold dragon. No problem with that, but according to the spell:
The target's game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. [...] [...] The creature is limited in the actions it can perform by the nature of its new form, and it can't speak, cast spells, or take any other action that requires hands or speech unless its new form is capable of such actions [...]
So, as an adult gold dragon, the player will only have the actions specified in the creature's stat block.
Apart from that, RAW, we have this in the gold dragon:
Change Shape. The dragon magically polymorphs into a humanoid or beast that has a challenge rating no higher than its own [...]
So I'd say the player, as a dragon, could polymorph into humanoids with a CR of 17 or lower (e.g., Mage or Archmage), but not player characters since they don't have CRs.
hello guys. Can you please help me? I have a lvl 17. team we play the 2014 dnd at the moment and one of my player wants to use true polymorph on himself to polymorph to an adult gold dragon, what he can do i guess becouse the dragon challange raiting is 17. but the dragon have a change shape ablility wich says, he can polymorphs into any humanoid (or beast) that has a challange raiting no higher than its own. So he want to turn himself to a gold dragon and keep his old humanoid character as well becouse he can turn back to a lvl 17 humanoid any time. is this possiple?
Yes it is possible, welcome to playing at level 17!
hello guys. Can you please help me? I have a lvl 17. team we play the 2014 dnd at the moment and one of my player wants to use true polymorph on himself to polymorph to an adult gold dragon, what he can do i guess becouse the dragon challange raiting is 17. but the dragon have a change shape ablility wich says, he can polymorphs into any humanoid (or beast) that has a challange raiting no higher than its own. So he want to turn himself to a gold dragon and keep his old humanoid character as well becouse he can turn back to a lvl 17 humanoid any time. is this possiple?
It both is and isn't possible.
When he true polymorphs he'll gain all the stats of the Adult Gold Dragon, losing those of his old humanoid character. So, he can change his shape to look like his initial humanoid form, but he loses all his spells, his class, his abilities, his feats.
So, can he turn into a gold dragon? Yes
Can he revert to his old humanoid shape with the Change Shape ability? Also yes.
Does he get to have access to his spells, class features, and feats of his old character? No
Creature into Creature. If you turn a creature into another kind of creature, the new form can be any kind you choose whose challenge rating is equal to or less than the target’s (or its level, if the target doesn’t have a challenge rating). The target’s game statistics, including mental ability scores, are replaced by the statistics of the new form. It retains its alignment and personality.
In a new form, the dragon retains its alignment, hit points, Hit Dice, ability to speak, proficiencies, Legendary Resistance, lair actions, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, as well as this action. Its statistics and capabilities are otherwise replaced by those of the new form, except any class features or legendary actions of that form.
So, if they started out as an Elf Commoner before becoming an adventurer that's what they'd change their shape back into. They might have been an Elven Wizard when they Polymorphed, but without their class features they're just a bog standard Elf Commoner. So when they as a Gold Dragon 'Change Shape' into their old Elven form, they've for the stats and capabilities of a Commoner, not of their former adventuring self. You could however be generous, if their character had been a thief before adverturing you might allow them something like the Master Thief stat block. Or you could be even more generous and allow a wizard to use something like the Evoker Wizard stat block. I wouldn't allow them to use their existing character sheet after having true polymorphed however.
Now, I'm sure that there are some tables who won't take the descriptions of the spell, or the dragon's Change Shape abilities quite as literally as I have. But if we only go from the wording that we have then what I have said is correct. That doesn't mean how other GMs choose to interpret all of this is wrong or bad. It just means that they prefer to be a little looser with the rules. My perspective is that 5e is already a system that borders on being a simple 'push button to win' game. As a result, I do like to keep some of the borders in place to offer at least some sembalence of challenge or balance in the game.
Oh, and also with True Polymorph don't forget that the player character would lose access to all of their gear. That stuff melds into their polymorphed shape as happens with Wild Shape. So even if you allow them to revert to their old stat block with Change Shape, they don't have their equipment!
The way I would play that is that they lose all their class levels. An additional part is a rule I play, if it replaces mental scores then they began thinking like what they are, and are possibly under dm control.
Thank you so much to your comments and helps guys, i realy appreciate it.
You're welcome!
If it's interesting for you, while not official ruling, the Dev also tackle the following question in the past:
@SammyBaert if a character gets true polymorphed into a dragon can that dragon shape change into a character of any class? @JeremyECrawford No matter what a dragon turns into with Change Shape, the dragon doesn't get that form's class features, as stated in the trait's text.
Just to offer a different take - I love the player's creativity! RAW, the true polymorph trick won't work (no PC CR, plus a dragon can't become a PC anyway). But, I like to reward creative thinking and I like and encourage homebrew - attacking with the +1 pointy thing gets old fast.
If it was my game I would come up with some creative process - use a wish spell one session to create bracelet of draconic essence - use true polymorph next session - roll a % die after the PC transformed back to human and if they succeed on a 50-50 they get XYZ as a benefit as long as they wear the bracelet - this check has to be done every time they transform. So in all likelihood the player will only get the benefit 50% of the time and it has to be balanced around the game and whatever the other players have gear wise.
But still - I do like to reward creative thinking.
Just to offer a different take - I love the player's creativity! RAW, the true polymorph trick won't work (no PC CR, plus a dragon can't become a PC anyway). But, I like to reward creative thinking and I like and encourage homebrew - attacking with the +1 pointy thing gets old fast.
If it was my game I would come up with some creative process - use a wish spell one session to create bracelet of draconic essence - use true polymorph next session - roll a % die after the PC transformed back to human and if they succeed on a 50-50 they get XYZ as a benefit as long as they wear the bracelet - this check has to be done every time they transform. So in all likelihood the player will only get the benefit 50% of the time and it has to be balanced around the game and whatever the other players have gear wise.
But still - I do like to reward creative thinking.
I totally agree with you. My first answer was just from a RAW perspective.
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hello guys. Can you please help me? I have a lvl 17. team we play the 2014 dnd at the moment and one of my player wants to use true polymorph on himself to polymorph to an adult gold dragon, what he can do i guess becouse the dragon challange raiting is 17. but the dragon have a change shape ablility wich says, he can polymorphs into any humanoid (or beast) that has a challange raiting no higher than its own. So he want to turn himself to a gold dragon and keep his old humanoid character as well becouse he can turn back to a lvl 17 humanoid any time. is this possiple?
The player can cast True Polymorph to turn into an adult gold dragon. No problem with that, but according to the spell:
So, as an adult gold dragon, the player will only have the actions specified in the creature's stat block.
Apart from that, RAW, we have this in the gold dragon:
So I'd say the player, as a dragon, could polymorph into humanoids with a CR of 17 or lower (e.g., Mage or Archmage), but not player characters since they don't have CRs.
But... physically similar? I guess so, yes.
Yes it is possible, welcome to playing at level 17!
It both is and isn't possible.
When he true polymorphs he'll gain all the stats of the Adult Gold Dragon, losing those of his old humanoid character. So, he can change his shape to look like his initial humanoid form, but he loses all his spells, his class, his abilities, his feats.
From the True Polymorph
From the Adult Gold Dragon Stat Block
So, if they started out as an Elf Commoner before becoming an adventurer that's what they'd change their shape back into. They might have been an Elven Wizard when they Polymorphed, but without their class features they're just a bog standard Elf Commoner. So when they as a Gold Dragon 'Change Shape' into their old Elven form, they've for the stats and capabilities of a Commoner, not of their former adventuring self. You could however be generous, if their character had been a thief before adverturing you might allow them something like the Master Thief stat block. Or you could be even more generous and allow a wizard to use something like the Evoker Wizard stat block. I wouldn't allow them to use their existing character sheet after having true polymorphed however.
Now, I'm sure that there are some tables who won't take the descriptions of the spell, or the dragon's Change Shape abilities quite as literally as I have. But if we only go from the wording that we have then what I have said is correct. That doesn't mean how other GMs choose to interpret all of this is wrong or bad. It just means that they prefer to be a little looser with the rules. My perspective is that 5e is already a system that borders on being a simple 'push button to win' game. As a result, I do like to keep some of the borders in place to offer at least some sembalence of challenge or balance in the game.
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
Oh, and also with True Polymorph don't forget that the player character would lose access to all of their gear. That stuff melds into their polymorphed shape as happens with Wild Shape. So even if you allow them to revert to their old stat block with Change Shape, they don't have their equipment!
DM session planning template - My version of maps for 'Lost Mine of Phandelver' - Send your party to The Circus - Other DM Resources - Maps, Tokens, Quests
Actor, Writer, Director & Teacher by day - GM/DM in my off hours.
The way I would play that is that they lose all their class levels. An additional part is a rule I play, if it replaces mental scores then they began thinking like what they are, and are possibly under dm control.
Thank you so much to your comments and helps guys, i realy appreciate it.
You're welcome!
If it's interesting for you, while not official ruling, the Dev also tackle the following question in the past:
Just to offer a different take - I love the player's creativity! RAW, the true polymorph trick won't work (no PC CR, plus a dragon can't become a PC anyway). But, I like to reward creative thinking and I like and encourage homebrew - attacking with the +1 pointy thing gets old fast.
If it was my game I would come up with some creative process - use a wish spell one session to create bracelet of draconic essence - use true polymorph next session - roll a % die after the PC transformed back to human and if they succeed on a 50-50 they get XYZ as a benefit as long as they wear the bracelet - this check has to be done every time they transform. So in all likelihood the player will only get the benefit 50% of the time and it has to be balanced around the game and whatever the other players have gear wise.
But still - I do like to reward creative thinking.
I totally agree with you. My first answer was just from a RAW perspective.