Hi everyone. I've got a couple sessions under my belt now, and everyone is enjoying themselves. I've more or less gotten most of the mechanics down, which is what was really occupying a lot of my lead-up prep time. There are still some things I fudge in the moment to keep the game moving and then look up later, but I feel good about the mechanics right now.
The thing that has been revealed, though, is that I didn't put near enough prep into the storytelling side. As a result, I feel like I haven't really been able to engage my players in the story, resulting in lots more encounters resulting in combat, and missing out on the fun that comes from resolving situations in other ways. To be clear, I feel like they don't know there IS another way. Later on, when everyone understands the options, I'm fine if they want to go all hack-and-slash through every encounter, I just feel like right now they don't know what else to do.
So, all that to get to this: I'm looking for tips on getting the story part down better, anything from prep work I can do to advice on what to do at the table.
Consider using the character's backgrounds and initial information to add more story to the game.
Their family, friends, mentors, employers, etc. make the world come alive. It helps give context to adventure, even if the motivation is "My parents are broke, I adventure to bring money to the family farm." it starts to better tell the story of the characters and gives you hooks to motivate players. It also opens up solutions that aren't combat. Maybe mom and dad want more land and your characters can rolepaly with the local Lord, etc. to gain a title/charter for more land in the family name (in exchange for deeds that help the noble). etc.
By focusing on the story of the characters, vs. the story of the world, you get tangible and immediate reactions for the characters and reward your players investments.
I tend to get very lost in the movements of the world around the character so I stress this with myself regularly. What am I doing to make it interesting for the characters? Which ones benefit from this? etc. If every session has something for at least one of the character's personal story the greater storytelling gets better. Feels better. Is more interesting for your players (because it focuses on them).
Consider using the character's backgrounds and initial information to add more story to the game.
By focusing on the story of the characters, vs. the story of the world, you get tangible and immediate reactions for the characters and reward your players investments.
This is useful. I need to emphasize this with my players. I feel like there's probably only 1 or 2 players who have given even the slightest thought to their player's story beyond "Kickass rogue." After leaning on that part a bit, I can try to make it last by tying the story in.
It's funny, every time I think "wow, this has been a lot of work" a whole lot more work reveals itself as needing to be done.
Some great things to add are puzzle rooms. These are rooms where players have to use knowledge to get out and not brute strength. One or two in adventure break up the combat based encounters that become to common. You can find some great puzzles on youtube from some pathfinder game players. Also if you can diverge from a "linear" storyline it helps. I'm currently running a game in which the PC's are hired on as Freebooters of the realm on a mysterious island. There is only a single guarded outpost, and each day 4-5 jobs are posted outside the magistrates office and the players get to decide which bounty they want to attempt, of course you need several scenarios to be ready but allowing them to choose means they don't feel like they are being "pushed" in a specific direction. I simply have a few random encounters that add to the main plot line that can be plugged into whichever dungeon they choose. Its working out great because it generates a lot of conversation between the players in which I don't need to be a part of. I always want my group to consider and think for themselves without my intervention. Remember as a DM you are the environment, pre write down some specific language that helps set the mood of the encounter. The description of a Fetid Swamp smelling of death and decay, with pooled waters as still as gravestones can do a lot to set the tone. You don't need it for every encounter, but it helps. Try also to throw a curve ball in the fight, every so often. A group of Kobolds greatly outmatched by a party are much more likely to either flee, or drop their weapons and beg for mercy or might even suggest helping the party if they promise to release them rather then being slaughtered.
I agree with Agile. Backstory is tremendously important. It helps the players understand that we're 'role' playing NOT 'roll' playing. D&D is improv theater. And just like in theater, you need to figure out your character's motivation for the actions they take. I spend a good deal of time working with my players one-on-one to help them explore the kind of personality they want to play, then I write up a good backstory for that personality that usually ends with a hook into the beginning of the campaign. I print those backstories out and have my players keep them handy for reference. Sometimes I'll even remind them as we go, for example sending a note that says "The barmaid reminds you of the girl who broke your heart" to a player whose backstory had him leave home after he was jilted. That can encourage him to role play the tavern encounter more thoroughly, rather than just have him order an ale and drink it.
Not sure if we can private message in here, but I can send you some examples if you'd like.
I'm a fan of having some overarching central tension in the land, perhaps between two political powers, that forces the players to pick a side. That allows for a lot of roleplaying and some storylines that can be seeded as well. What if the side they backed loses the conflict? Are they now outlaws? What if the side they picked win? Are they now politically important people in the land? What if the party is split? Do they choose to represent neutrality or do they leave this land, to find another?
Definitely try pulling events from character backstory to weave into the narrative. Also, anything that you can throw at them that is outside the expected norm. You say you've been running a lot of combat encounters. How about someone hires them to explore a dungeon, but with the caveat that they don't kill anything inside? They just want it mapped so they can decide whether or not it's worth it to go through the dungeon. Or perhaps they're hired to help mediate a conflict between two parties? It'll give them things to react to without encouraging combat. Perhaps they've been hired to represent a less-than-savory individual in a business transaction, again with the caveat that they don't kill anyone.
One thing I do, both to avoid railroading and to help with backstory, is never present only one adventure hook at a time. I always give my groups two or three possible adventures. The ones they don't pick resolve without player intervention. Sometimes that means other adventurers save the say, sometimes it means those villains win, sometimes the players never find out. Either way it helps them feel the world has stuff going on around them. And it keeps me thinking about the story, the NPCs, what is happening and how it is all related. It also helps when I need to think of random background conversation, I can make references to the paths not taken "hey did you hear that rumor from Caer Galbredth?" "What the one about the town being overrun with landsharks? Psh, has to be false, there couldn't be that many around here without us knowing about it".
If they are new players absolutely design some encounters to teach them what they can do.
I ran my newbys through a heist pretty early, they had to think of something other than combat for that because if they were in combat they would have already messed up.
Public Mod Note(Stormknight): Merged three posts together into one. Please try to avoid replying to yourself - you can edit your posts if you find you have additional text you missed. :)
One thing I do, both to avoid railroading and to help with backstory, is never present only one adventure hook at a time. I always give my groups two or three possible adventures. The ones they don't pick resolve without player intervention. Sometimes that means other adventurers save the say, sometimes it means those villains win, sometimes the players never find out. Either way it helps them feel the world has stuff going on around them. And it keeps me thinking about the story, the NPCs, what is happening and how it is all related. It also helps when I need to think of random background conversation, I can make references to the paths not taken "hey did you hear that rumor from Caer Galbredth?" "What the one about the town being overrun with landsharks? Psh, has to be false, there couldn't be that many around here without us knowing about it".
This is my first time DMing, and I'm using the Lost Mines of Phandelver book from the starter kit. It has a hub-like structure, where you have a little lead-in with some encounters, but then you get to the main town and there are probably half-a-dozen or so mini-quests you can do before you go take on the BB. You could go straight to the BB if you wanted, but I don't think it would end well lol. This is designed in a way so that the party can take all of them, or some of them, with some minor consequences for delaying but nothing major. I can see though how that would make for more tension, that making them pick gives a feeling of stakes.
If they are new players absolutely design some encounters to teach them what they can do.
I ran my newbys through a heist pretty early, they had to think of something other than combat for that because if they were in combat they would have already messed up.
They are new players, but I'm also a new DM lol. Not sure I'm up to the task of designing that kind of encounter yet. Although a heist sounds really awesome. The main problem with my players is we've got that one murder hobbit who wants to go through the game killing absolutely everything he encounters. Non-combat solutions are not his strength. I've set aside some time to chat with him 1:1 to discuss group dynamics. He's p*ssing a lot of people off lol.
Thanks for the heist idea, that sounds like something I'd like to try once I get a little more experience.
Public Mod Note
(Stormknight):
Merged three posts together into one. Please try to avoid replying to yourself - you can edit your posts if you find you have additional text you missed. :)
oh, I'm a new DM too, mostly done some online stuff. The heist was literally the first thing i put them through after getting my sea legs with a module. How I planned it was just created a building and schedual for the people in the building and just had them go to town. no more planning than that you actually shouldn't plan how they are going to infiltrate the place. That's for the players to do.
For the murder hobbit absolutely talk to him but i would also give him something he cannot beat that's not immediately aggressive or, not murderous its self.
Another one i ran my players through which was A LOT of work but completely RP. A desert trading post town that was attacked nightly by gnolls that would not give the party very needed water because of the raiders. Way too many Gnolls to fight alone. They had to convince the residents/traders to fight with them. That was 19 NPC total, because i hate myself?
If they are new players absolutely design some encounters to teach them what they can do.
I ran my newbys through a heist pretty early, they had to think of something other than combat for that because if they were in combat they would have already messed up.
They are new players, but I'm also a new DM lol. Not sure I'm up to the task of designing that kind of encounter yet. Although a heist sounds really awesome. The main problem with my players is we've got that one murder hobbit who wants to go through the game killing absolutely everything he encounters. Non-combat solutions are not his strength. I've set aside some time to chat with him 1:1 to discuss group dynamics. He's p*ssing a lot of people off lol.
Thanks for the heist idea, that sounds like something I'd like to try once I get a little more experience.
The 1:1 with him is the best idea first and a great step to be taking. If that doesn't work/it doesn't get through, try to have the other players talk to him too, either in game or out of game letting them know their concerned as well. You have to address the problem in order to fix it.
This next one might not be a great solution, but something out of the box I think might help -- maybe if there's a point where the other PC's don't want to fight, but he is confrontational, let him be and not get killed, but get captured. Surely the PC's being his friend/acquaintance wouldn't be happy with this and idly stand by but if it's made clear they can't win via fighting they likely won't. The other PC's then have to rescue him, but have them do so through mainly (or even only) RP/skill checks (i.e. avoid combat; talk to the person in charge, sneak through a dungeon/jail cell with puzzles/traps and a few guards that they wouldn't want to encounter). Could be a memorable story, and can also show him that conflict can be resolved without swords and axes. To not leave him completely out of the action, after certain points with the party, change the "scene" back to him in his cell and have him engage with the jailer or another cell-mate somehow to find another way out, again trying to avoid combat.
oh, I'm a new DM too, mostly done some online stuff. The heist was literally the first thing i put them through after getting my sea legs with a module. How I planned it was just created a building and schedual for the people in the building and just had them go to town. no more planning than that you actually shouldn't plan how they are going to infiltrate the place. That's for the players to do.
For the murder hobbit absolutely talk to him but i would also give him something he cannot beat that's not immediately aggressive or, not murderous its self.
Another one i ran my players through which was A LOT of work but completely RP. A desert trading post town that was attacked nightly by gnolls that would not give the party very needed water because of the raiders. Way too many Gnolls to fight alone. They had to convince the residents/traders to fight with them. That was 19 NPC total, because i hate myself?
Dang! 19 NPCs, plus the gnolls? You might want to see a therapist. I'm concerned you might be a danger to yourself ;)
If they are new players absolutely design some encounters to teach them what they can do.
I ran my newbys through a heist pretty early, they had to think of something other than combat for that because if they were in combat they would have already messed up.
They are new players, but I'm also a new DM lol. Not sure I'm up to the task of designing that kind of encounter yet. Although a heist sounds really awesome. The main problem with my players is we've got that one murder hobbit who wants to go through the game killing absolutely everything he encounters. Non-combat solutions are not his strength. I've set aside some time to chat with him 1:1 to discuss group dynamics. He's p*ssing a lot of people off lol.
Thanks for the heist idea, that sounds like something I'd like to try once I get a little more experience.
The 1:1 with him is the best idea first and a great step to be taking. If that doesn't work/it doesn't get through, try to have the other players talk to him too, either in game or out of game letting them know their concerned as well. You have to address the problem in order to fix it.
This next one might not be a great solution, but something out of the box I think might help -- maybe if there's a point where the other PC's don't want to fight, but he is confrontational, let him be and not get killed, but get captured. Surely the PC's being his friend/acquaintance wouldn't be happy with this and idly stand by but if it's made clear they can't win via fighting they likely won't. The other PC's then have to rescue him, but have them do so through mainly (or even only) RP/skill checks (i.e. avoid combat; talk to the person in charge, sneak through a dungeon/jail cell with puzzles/traps and a few guards that they wouldn't want to encounter). Could be a memorable story, and can also show him that conflict can be resolved without swords and axes. To not leave him completely out of the action, after certain points with the party, change the "scene" back to him in his cell and have him engage with the jailer or another cell-mate somehow to find another way out, again trying to avoid combat.
Yes, I'm thinking that if he doesn't get the message OOG, then I may have to put him in some kind of situation in-game to either let him go against something he shouldn't, and thereby get his butt kicked and the rest of the party saves him, or do something like you said, try to put him in a spot where he CAN'T fight and must find a non-combat solution.
Later in the campaign is the encounter with the young green dragon, which the campaign itself stresses the party should not try to fight. I'm a little concerned that this particular party member might start something disastrous there.
If you want a fun "heist" map to play with, this one looks cool. Maybe the local thieves guild is paying the party to extract a snitch that has holed up in his well protected bunker. Or maybe there is a magical item that a rival has locked up in the vault while it awaits transport to a prospective buyer. Or maybe some loudmouth at the bar is spilling his guts about some "murder house" that his buddies got mixed up in and wants someone to investigate this Saw-like prop-house and find the demented fool responsible for building it.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
If they are new players absolutely design some encounters to teach them what they can do.
I ran my newbys through a heist pretty early, they had to think of something other than combat for that because if they were in combat they would have already messed up.
They are new players, but I'm also a new DM lol. Not sure I'm up to the task of designing that kind of encounter yet. Although a heist sounds really awesome. The main problem with my players is we've got that one murder hobbit who wants to go through the game killing absolutely everything he encounters. Non-combat solutions are not his strength. I've set aside some time to chat with him 1:1 to discuss group dynamics. He's p*ssing a lot of people off lol.
Thanks for the heist idea, that sounds like something I'd like to try once I get a little more experience.
The 1:1 with him is the best idea first and a great step to be taking. If that doesn't work/it doesn't get through, try to have the other players talk to him too, either in game or out of game letting them know their concerned as well. You have to address the problem in order to fix it.
This next one might not be a great solution, but something out of the box I think might help -- maybe if there's a point where the other PC's don't want to fight, but he is confrontational, let him be and not get killed, but get captured. Surely the PC's being his friend/acquaintance wouldn't be happy with this and idly stand by but if it's made clear they can't win via fighting they likely won't. The other PC's then have to rescue him, but have them do so through mainly (or even only) RP/skill checks (i.e. avoid combat; talk to the person in charge, sneak through a dungeon/jail cell with puzzles/traps and a few guards that they wouldn't want to encounter). Could be a memorable story, and can also show him that conflict can be resolved without swords and axes. To not leave him completely out of the action, after certain points with the party, change the "scene" back to him in his cell and have him engage with the jailer or another cell-mate somehow to find another way out, again trying to avoid combat.
Yes, I'm thinking that if he doesn't get the message OOG, then I may have to put him in some kind of situation in-game to either let him go against something he shouldn't, and thereby get his butt kicked and the rest of the party saves him, or do something like you said, try to put him in a spot where he CAN'T fight and must find a non-combat solution.
Later in the campaign is the encounter with the young green dragon, which the campaign itself stresses the party should not try to fight. I'm a little concerned that this particular party member might start something disastrous there.
Metagame. Flat-out tell him, "it's CR 8. It could one-shot the whole party," or whatever.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
If they are new players absolutely design some encounters to teach them what they can do.
I ran my newbys through a heist pretty early, they had to think of something other than combat for that because if they were in combat they would have already messed up.
They are new players, but I'm also a new DM lol. Not sure I'm up to the task of designing that kind of encounter yet. Although a heist sounds really awesome. The main problem with my players is we've got that one murder hobbit who wants to go through the game killing absolutely everything he encounters. Non-combat solutions are not his strength. I've set aside some time to chat with him 1:1 to discuss group dynamics. He's p*ssing a lot of people off lol.
Thanks for the heist idea, that sounds like something I'd like to try once I get a little more experience.
The 1:1 with him is the best idea first and a great step to be taking. If that doesn't work/it doesn't get through, try to have the other players talk to him too, either in game or out of game letting them know their concerned as well. You have to address the problem in order to fix it.
This next one might not be a great solution, but something out of the box I think might help -- maybe if there's a point where the other PC's don't want to fight, but he is confrontational, let him be and not get killed, but get captured. Surely the PC's being his friend/acquaintance wouldn't be happy with this and idly stand by but if it's made clear they can't win via fighting they likely won't. The other PC's then have to rescue him, but have them do so through mainly (or even only) RP/skill checks (i.e. avoid combat; talk to the person in charge, sneak through a dungeon/jail cell with puzzles/traps and a few guards that they wouldn't want to encounter). Could be a memorable story, and can also show him that conflict can be resolved without swords and axes. To not leave him completely out of the action, after certain points with the party, change the "scene" back to him in his cell and have him engage with the jailer or another cell-mate somehow to find another way out, again trying to avoid combat.
Yes, I'm thinking that if he doesn't get the message OOG, then I may have to put him in some kind of situation in-game to either let him go against something he shouldn't, and thereby get his butt kicked and the rest of the party saves him, or do something like you said, try to put him in a spot where he CAN'T fight and must find a non-combat solution.
Later in the campaign is the encounter with the young green dragon, which the campaign itself stresses the party should not try to fight. I'm a little concerned that this particular party member might start something disastrous there.
Metagame. Flat-out tell him, "it's CR 8. It could one-shot the whole party," or whatever.
Yup. That's pretty much the plan, if he doesn't take the hint in-game.
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Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
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Hi everyone. I've got a couple sessions under my belt now, and everyone is enjoying themselves. I've more or less gotten most of the mechanics down, which is what was really occupying a lot of my lead-up prep time. There are still some things I fudge in the moment to keep the game moving and then look up later, but I feel good about the mechanics right now.
The thing that has been revealed, though, is that I didn't put near enough prep into the storytelling side. As a result, I feel like I haven't really been able to engage my players in the story, resulting in lots more encounters resulting in combat, and missing out on the fun that comes from resolving situations in other ways. To be clear, I feel like they don't know there IS another way. Later on, when everyone understands the options, I'm fine if they want to go all hack-and-slash through every encounter, I just feel like right now they don't know what else to do.
So, all that to get to this: I'm looking for tips on getting the story part down better, anything from prep work I can do to advice on what to do at the table.
Thanks in advance!
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
There are two suggestions I can think of:
1) Be descriptive. Even with no preparation, try to describe details of monsters and enviroment.
2) In the free time, you can read D&D novels, they help in that regard.
Thanks filcat!
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
Consider using the character's backgrounds and initial information to add more story to the game.
Their family, friends, mentors, employers, etc. make the world come alive. It helps give context to adventure, even if the motivation is "My parents are broke, I adventure to bring money to the family farm." it starts to better tell the story of the characters and gives you hooks to motivate players. It also opens up solutions that aren't combat. Maybe mom and dad want more land and your characters can rolepaly with the local Lord, etc. to gain a title/charter for more land in the family name (in exchange for deeds that help the noble). etc.
By focusing on the story of the characters, vs. the story of the world, you get tangible and immediate reactions for the characters and reward your players investments.
I tend to get very lost in the movements of the world around the character so I stress this with myself regularly. What am I doing to make it interesting for the characters? Which ones benefit from this? etc. If every session has something for at least one of the character's personal story the greater storytelling gets better. Feels better. Is more interesting for your players (because it focuses on them).
View my StartPlaying.Games profile to see my games!
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
Some great things to add are puzzle rooms. These are rooms where players have to use knowledge to get out and not brute strength. One or two in adventure break up the combat based encounters that become to common. You can find some great puzzles on youtube from some pathfinder game players. Also if you can diverge from a "linear" storyline it helps. I'm currently running a game in which the PC's are hired on as Freebooters of the realm on a mysterious island. There is only a single guarded outpost, and each day 4-5 jobs are posted outside the magistrates office and the players get to decide which bounty they want to attempt, of course you need several scenarios to be ready but allowing them to choose means they don't feel like they are being "pushed" in a specific direction. I simply have a few random encounters that add to the main plot line that can be plugged into whichever dungeon they choose. Its working out great because it generates a lot of conversation between the players in which I don't need to be a part of. I always want my group to consider and think for themselves without my intervention. Remember as a DM you are the environment, pre write down some specific language that helps set the mood of the encounter. The description of a Fetid Swamp smelling of death and decay, with pooled waters as still as gravestones can do a lot to set the tone. You don't need it for every encounter, but it helps. Try also to throw a curve ball in the fight, every so often. A group of Kobolds greatly outmatched by a party are much more likely to either flee, or drop their weapons and beg for mercy or might even suggest helping the party if they promise to release them rather then being slaughtered.
I agree with Agile. Backstory is tremendously important. It helps the players understand that we're 'role' playing NOT 'roll' playing. D&D is improv theater. And just like in theater, you need to figure out your character's motivation for the actions they take. I spend a good deal of time working with my players one-on-one to help them explore the kind of personality they want to play, then I write up a good backstory for that personality that usually ends with a hook into the beginning of the campaign. I print those backstories out and have my players keep them handy for reference. Sometimes I'll even remind them as we go, for example sending a note that says "The barmaid reminds you of the girl who broke your heart" to a player whose backstory had him leave home after he was jilted. That can encourage him to role play the tavern encounter more thoroughly, rather than just have him order an ale and drink it.
Not sure if we can private message in here, but I can send you some examples if you'd like.
I'm a fan of having some overarching central tension in the land, perhaps between two political powers, that forces the players to pick a side. That allows for a lot of roleplaying and some storylines that can be seeded as well. What if the side they backed loses the conflict? Are they now outlaws? What if the side they picked win? Are they now politically important people in the land? What if the party is split? Do they choose to represent neutrality or do they leave this land, to find another?
Definitely try pulling events from character backstory to weave into the narrative. Also, anything that you can throw at them that is outside the expected norm. You say you've been running a lot of combat encounters. How about someone hires them to explore a dungeon, but with the caveat that they don't kill anything inside? They just want it mapped so they can decide whether or not it's worth it to go through the dungeon. Or perhaps they're hired to help mediate a conflict between two parties? It'll give them things to react to without encouraging combat. Perhaps they've been hired to represent a less-than-savory individual in a business transaction, again with the caveat that they don't kill anyone.
One thing I do, both to avoid railroading and to help with backstory, is never present only one adventure hook at a time. I always give my groups two or three possible adventures. The ones they don't pick resolve without player intervention. Sometimes that means other adventurers save the say, sometimes it means those villains win, sometimes the players never find out. Either way it helps them feel the world has stuff going on around them. And it keeps me thinking about the story, the NPCs, what is happening and how it is all related. It also helps when I need to think of random background conversation, I can make references to the paths not taken "hey did you hear that rumor from Caer Galbredth?" "What the one about the town being overrun with landsharks? Psh, has to be false, there couldn't be that many around here without us knowing about it".
If they are new players absolutely design some encounters to teach them what they can do.
I ran my newbys through a heist pretty early, they had to think of something other than combat for that because if they were in combat they would have already messed up.
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
oh, I'm a new DM too, mostly done some online stuff. The heist was literally the first thing i put them through after getting my sea legs with a module. How I planned it was just created a building and schedual for the people in the building and just had them go to town. no more planning than that you actually shouldn't plan how they are going to infiltrate the place. That's for the players to do.
For the murder hobbit absolutely talk to him but i would also give him something he cannot beat that's not immediately aggressive or, not murderous its self.
Another one i ran my players through which was A LOT of work but completely RP. A desert trading post town that was attacked nightly by gnolls that would not give the party very needed water because of the raiders. Way too many Gnolls to fight alone. They had to convince the residents/traders to fight with them. That was 19 NPC total, because i hate myself?
How do you get a one-armed goblin out of a tree?
Wave!
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
If you want a fun "heist" map to play with, this one looks cool. Maybe the local thieves guild is paying the party to extract a snitch that has holed up in his well protected bunker. Or maybe there is a magical item that a rival has locked up in the vault while it awaits transport to a prospective buyer. Or maybe some loudmouth at the bar is spilling his guts about some "murder house" that his buddies got mixed up in and wants someone to investigate this Saw-like prop-house and find the demented fool responsible for building it.
@metamongoose, those are solid hooks, thanks for the inspiration! I love them. And that map is pretty tight too. Some lethal looking traps in there.
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.