How does the Phantasmal Force spell work? Or I should say, after the initial save, how does anyone get a chance to break free from the illusion? Maybe I should explain my concerns a little further, when you first cast the spell it says the target/victim must make an Intelligence saving throw. Now here's where it gets tricky, if you make the save all is well and good, but if you fail then you are victim to the spell, which creates an illusion of something that must fit within a 10-foot cube.
With most illusions (which are mainly visual) it probably depends on what is created and how likely the target is to believe that the illusion is real. For example if a lion just appeared out of nowhere and tried to bite you, it is reasonable to doubt it (perhaps a wizard is capable of summoning a lion but he is also capable of making illusions), and if you don't hear it roar or feel the bite, those might be clues that it is not real.
But with Phantasmal Force it says the phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature. So with all the boxes checked so to speak there is no reason to doubt it is a real lion... or a pit of acid... or whatever.
It also says... The target can use its action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If the check succeeds, the target realizes that the phantasm is an illusion, and the spell ends.
But in the very next sentence says... While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real.
Sorry for going on so long, you can read the spell yourself to get the full measure of it's meaning and intent, but my problem is if someone fails their initial save why should they ever make another save or check... the very nature of the spell itself seems to prohibit this.
Initial save lets the PC have a chance to recognize it as an illusion right off the bat. If they fail, they think it's real and treat it as such. Then, assuming they have a reason to examine it more closely (say another party member makes their save and tells everyone else it's an illusion) they make the skill check. Pass - they recognize it as an illusion, fail, and they still think it's real and don't believe their party member.
The target might believe the illusion is real, but everyone else has no idea of what he/she is seeing, and therefore others could warrant the investigation check by the affected creature, if, for example, he/she decides to demonstrate the realness of what he/she is seeing.
Also, as much as the illusion is perceived as truthful, the description of Phantasmal Force does not states that a living creature created with the spell would move, just that it can deal damage to the target if the target is within 5 feet of it. Therefore, should the lion in your example not move an inch, the affected creature might decide to investigate it, therefore warranting the check.
At least that's how I could rule such a situation without more context. It also very much in the realm of possibility that someone could be stuck with the illusion until the spell expires (1 minute) if no one questions what they are seeing.
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Phantasmal Force is a fun spell. Simply put, you can still examine something even if you believe it is real.
A couple of scenarios:
1. After trying to fight off the phantasmal lion, an ally tells the victim that what it's seeing isn't real. Next turn, the victim uses its action to examine the phantasm and potentially realise it's an illusion.
2. In this instance, the phantasm is a false door. The victim of the spell, wanting to get through this door, naturally examines it to try and find out how it opens - only to realise it's an illusion.
I agree, but as to your first point there will be times when there are no allies or anyone to shout a warning it isn't real... and even if there were, the spell states that the target will rationalize any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm. So on the next turn the victim would not use it's action to examine the phantasm, they would actually make excuses why it is real.
And the same goes for point number 2... no matter how they examined a false door (illusion) they would make excuses for why they couldn't open it... it's locked, it's stuck, or my hand slipped off the doorknob... oops butterfingers.
The spell is designed to never be doubted or questioned... so after the initial Intelligence save, no one would ever reasonably get another chance to break the illusion. It would have to run it's course and deal any damage it would deal if it was a danger or threat.
Oh, and I almost forgot... the illusion in only in the targets mind so it is unlikely that anyone will tell him it isn't real.
I agree, but as to your first point there will be times when there are no allies or anyone to shout a warning it isn't real... and even if there were, the spell states that the target will rationalize any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm. So on the next turn the victim would not use it's action to examine the phantasm, they would actually make excuses why it is real.
And the same goes for point number 2... no matter how they examined a false door (illusion) they would make excuses for why they couldn't open it... it's locked, it's stuck, or my hand slipped off the doorknob... oops butterfingers.
The spell is designed to never be doubted or questioned... so after the initial Intelligence save, no one would ever reasonably get another chance to break the illusion. It would have to run it's course and deal any damage it would deal if it was a danger or threat.
In the absence of any external aid (other people) yes, I tend to agree it could well end up lasting its full minute (provided concentration is maintained) and the victim be stuck with it for the duration.
Edit: I do not concur with point number 2, though, as an investigation check is what is normally used to see if a door is trapped or otherwise, and a pretty usual check to make. The spell does not state the investigation check needs to be done with the purpose of finding out that the door is an illusion, or under the pretense its presence is doubted, but simply an investigation check. Should the result of this "trap" check be enough to beat the spell DC, the door reveals itself to be an illusion, as VillainTheory said.
Well, if there are others around, then they certainly could question why you are interacting with something that isn't there. If they then Investigate and fail the check, then the result could well be to argue that it IS there, isn't it obvious? As to the door example, if you were alone, a failed check results in you continuing to believe the door is real, with your rationalizations being perfectly legitimate. And again, it only lasts the minute, so it's not forever. Maybe in a vacuum you would never question the spell after the initial failed save, but I'd certainly say that outside interactions and circumstances could cause you to question or investigate. It's only a 2nd level spell after all. But of course it's all subject to DM fiat.
With most illusions I might agree... there should always be some reason why a target questions an illusion, you can't just say I question that tree in the forest isn't real... why not question every tree, or every thing you ever encounter... if there is a reason to question something , fine, but otherwise you would believe it.
That's my point with this spell, it makes you want to believe it and make excuses for it, not question it. And although it says you can use your action to examine the phantasm, the rest of the spell says the target will make excuses for why it's real... so that means you wouldn't use your action to examine the phantasm.
It comes down to how it's being used, IMO. If it's a minor, believable thing, then sure - no reason to ever question it, certainly not if you are alone and failed the save. In that case, you accept it and move on. The more unbelievable the application, the more reason to question it, though - moreso if you are in a group and some of the others make the save and tell you it's an illusion. It very much depends on the situation.
Again, with most illusions I agree with this opinion for the most part. But Phantasmal Force is only in the mind of the target so others don't get a save... and if they do notice you doing something weird (they don't automatically know you are affected by an illusion), the spell states you will essentially make excuses for why you believe in the phantasm.
That is what I find so vexing about this spell. It is only 2nd level, and there are constrictions by which it has to abide (duration, concentration, and so forth), but it is not a cantrip or 1st level spell and it does do what it says it does. It has to be given it's credit in it's diabolical nature of tormenting the target.
Has anyone read the full spell description. I mean really read it through carefully, slowly... maybe even twice or more. It can be deadly if a clever enough illusion is created.
I don't know what else to tell you, really. I guess I'd just be much more flexible in my rulings. It can be used to deadly effect, sure, and would seem to be much more effective if the target is alone and has no one to intercede on his behalf. I'd still allow a fair amount of flexibility in having a chance to investigate it though, even more if others are present to argue against what he thinks he sees. Up to the DM, so YMMV. I'm more a rule of cool kind of DM than a strict by the book type.
I agree, because it can be deadly in the right situation, maybe giving the intelligence check it says you can take during your action is only fair. But then again, is it, is it really? I mean this spell says the target will go out of his way to believe the phantasm even making excuses and such... seems like to give the extra intelligence check is to go against the design of the spell.
Think of it this way, if someone casts Fireball it does 8d6 fire damage right. But what if someone then ignored what the spell said it did. With a clear cut spell such as Fireball that probably wouldn't fly. By ignoring what Phantasmal Force does you deny the power of the spell, which is no Fireball I'll give you that, but shouldn't it have a chance to do what it says it does.
I'm not sure why I'm arguing this point so much, but ask yourselves, why are you arguing against it so much?
If the phantasm is attacking you and doing damage you will react, your allies will see you react to a threat, and so your allies will surely question what you're doing - and that is more than enough to lead to someone examining it. If your allies are not questioning it, or you are alone, you are likely going to start moving away from the threat when you realise you're losing the fight (seeing as you cannot damage it) - the illusion can't move from its 10ft cube, so you are safe as soon as you move away even if you believe it might follow you. One minute later and the phantasm is gone, all is well.
If it's not attacking you, then it's not really doing you harm unless, as per the example on the spell itself, it's a fake bridge you've fallen through. The check for that is the initial saving throw against the spell.
Otherwise a minute passes and the spell ends.
There are many similar spells, even ones of lower level. Consider the Minor Illusion cantrip. You can create sounds and images with it - why question those? In this instance everyone can see the illusion, and the illusions are simpler and are revealed on touching them, but you can still Minor Illusion a (small) false bridge, or hide a small door/window, or even lure someone with a voice - with no saving throw at all if you rule your players or NPCs cannot hear and see the spellcaster, and any players involved do not conclude it could be false by their own deduction.
Illusions scale by the cleverness of their use and the fairness of the DM. A creative player can do all sorts with them, even fooling dragons with only low level spells.
Yes that is true, and part of my point, with Minor Illusion or other illusion based spells other usually see them... not so with Phantasmal Force, and because others see them those who save can help those who don't... but one thing to consider is this example:
Scenario 1: there is a brick wall at the end of an alley
Scenario 2: there is an illusion of a brick wall at the end of an alley
in which scenario do you get to disbelieve an illusion... both? neither? why?
And there could be a situation where you can't escape the illusion from Phantasmal Force so the spell doesn't end, it keeps going for it's full duration, and the target makes excuses for why it's real that whole time. (the target falls into a pit of acid and steel bars close over the top... no running away or escaping that)
Also the dimensions of the illusion are a 10-foot cube, it doesn't say it's stationary, in fact the spell has a range which means you could have the danger/threat chase the target around so long as you didn't exceed the range of the spell.
All I'm arguing for is common sense in the interpretation. Instant blast of a fireball? There will be no investigation there - you take the damage. But there are plenty of other cases were a chance to investigate or explore makes sense.
RE: Your brick wall. Your party walks through it, clear case of a chance to investigate. If you are alone, then no. Steel bars close you in a pit - would you examine it to try and find a way to open it? Yep. Fall in a pit of acid - I'd say you take the damage in that case. You'd try to get out, sure, but not disbelieve that it's actually burning you. Again, look at the situation and make a common sense ruling. Done. I think you are way overthinking it at this point. There can't be a hard and fast rule.
There is a range to cast the spell, and once cast, it fills up to the 10' cube in a specific spot within that range. It never says it's movable. You can't relocate it round to round to chase someone. Spells that allow you to do that, Dancing Lights for example, say so.
how do walk through a brick wall... in scenario 1 the wall is real, and in scenario 2 why would you try to walk through a brick wall?
with all other illusions, sure depending on the situation I can understand getting a chance to disbelieve it... but with this spell it states you make excuses as to why it is real, that doesn't sound like getting a chance to disbelieve it, quite the opposite in fact... it could even be argued that if an ally was around and warned you, you would probably call them a liar and continue to believe in the phantasm.
maybe it is stationary, it does say later than that if the phantasm is something that can cause damage it will continue to do so to the target if it remains within 5 feet of the phantasm
but it also says... While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real.
and... An affected target is so convinced of the phantasm's reality that it can even take damage from the illusion.
Agree with all of you that this spell can be very powerful (not deadly), and versatile.
I find that it can be a simple way to apply to the target conditions like blind (an illusion of a dense fog), deaf (a loud and penetrating sound coming from somewhere), and even prone (the ceiling is lowering rapidly).
A nice one I had imagined is the use against the BBEG,l fighting in melee. If the illusion would be of a hole opening on the ground, fire and lava coming up (dealing fire damage too), then the BBEG in case he fails the save will surely step back from that, provoking attacks of opportunity from all the fighters.
Another use can be a social one: if you want to convince someone like a guard to let you pass, you could make him think that his captain appears ordering him to let you pass.
I’m not sure of the stationery rule, but maybe you are right, otherwise it would be too powerful for a 2nd level spell.
Also to the brick wall example, he would run right through the brick wall. The wall isn't actually there, he would rationalize that the wall broke, but would take damage because you know running into a wall hurts.
or maybe he would rationalize that he didn't break the wall... remember, he is rationalizing to maintain the illusion not break it with some damage or penalty
in the example they give he falls through the illusion of the bridge but does not rationalize that the bridge isn't there, quite the opposite in fact and might even go so far as to try it again and fall through again
PF illusion, the target only sees, so if the party does not perceive the PF brick wall and just continues down the actual open alley to another street they would appear to walk through it. If it is a deadly pit that surrounds the target and during combat a party member runs right over the pit because to them it is not there I could see trying to investigate.
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How does the Phantasmal Force spell work? Or I should say, after the initial save, how does anyone get a chance to break free from the illusion? Maybe I should explain my concerns a little further, when you first cast the spell it says the target/victim must make an Intelligence saving throw. Now here's where it gets tricky, if you make the save all is well and good, but if you fail then you are victim to the spell, which creates an illusion of something that must fit within a 10-foot cube.
With most illusions (which are mainly visual) it probably depends on what is created and how likely the target is to believe that the illusion is real. For example if a lion just appeared out of nowhere and tried to bite you, it is reasonable to doubt it (perhaps a wizard is capable of summoning a lion but he is also capable of making illusions), and if you don't hear it roar or feel the bite, those might be clues that it is not real.
But with Phantasmal Force it says the phantasm includes sound, temperature, and other stimuli, also evident only to the creature. So with all the boxes checked so to speak there is no reason to doubt it is a real lion... or a pit of acid... or whatever.
It also says... The target can use its action to examine the phantasm with an Intelligence (Investigation) check against your spell save DC. If the check succeeds, the target realizes that the phantasm is an illusion, and the spell ends.
But in the very next sentence says... While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real.
Sorry for going on so long, you can read the spell yourself to get the full measure of it's meaning and intent, but my problem is if someone fails their initial save why should they ever make another save or check... the very nature of the spell itself seems to prohibit this.
All comments and ideas on this are welcome.
Initial save lets the PC have a chance to recognize it as an illusion right off the bat. If they fail, they think it's real and treat it as such. Then, assuming they have a reason to examine it more closely (say another party member makes their save and tells everyone else it's an illusion) they make the skill check. Pass - they recognize it as an illusion, fail, and they still think it's real and don't believe their party member.
The target might believe the illusion is real, but everyone else has no idea of what he/she is seeing, and therefore others could warrant the investigation check by the affected creature, if, for example, he/she decides to demonstrate the realness of what he/she is seeing.
Also, as much as the illusion is perceived as truthful, the description of Phantasmal Force does not states that a living creature created with the spell would move, just that it can deal damage to the target if the target is within 5 feet of it. Therefore, should the lion in your example not move an inch, the affected creature might decide to investigate it, therefore warranting the check.
At least that's how I could rule such a situation without more context. It also very much in the realm of possibility that someone could be stuck with the illusion until the spell expires (1 minute) if no one questions what they are seeing.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Phantasmal Force is a fun spell. Simply put, you can still examine something even if you believe it is real.
A couple of scenarios:
1. After trying to fight off the phantasmal lion, an ally tells the victim that what it's seeing isn't real. Next turn, the victim uses its action to examine the phantasm and potentially realise it's an illusion.
2. In this instance, the phantasm is a false door. The victim of the spell, wanting to get through this door, naturally examines it to try and find out how it opens - only to realise it's an illusion.
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I agree, but as to your first point there will be times when there are no allies or anyone to shout a warning it isn't real... and even if there were, the spell states that the target will rationalize any illogical outcomes from interacting with the phantasm. So on the next turn the victim would not use it's action to examine the phantasm, they would actually make excuses why it is real.
And the same goes for point number 2... no matter how they examined a false door (illusion) they would make excuses for why they couldn't open it... it's locked, it's stuck, or my hand slipped off the doorknob... oops butterfingers.
The spell is designed to never be doubted or questioned... so after the initial Intelligence save, no one would ever reasonably get another chance to break the illusion. It would have to run it's course and deal any damage it would deal if it was a danger or threat.
Oh, and I almost forgot... the illusion in only in the targets mind so it is unlikely that anyone will tell him it isn't real.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Well, if there are others around, then they certainly could question why you are interacting with something that isn't there. If they then Investigate and fail the check, then the result could well be to argue that it IS there, isn't it obvious? As to the door example, if you were alone, a failed check results in you continuing to believe the door is real, with your rationalizations being perfectly legitimate. And again, it only lasts the minute, so it's not forever. Maybe in a vacuum you would never question the spell after the initial failed save, but I'd certainly say that outside interactions and circumstances could cause you to question or investigate. It's only a 2nd level spell after all. But of course it's all subject to DM fiat.
With most illusions I might agree... there should always be some reason why a target questions an illusion, you can't just say I question that tree in the forest isn't real... why not question every tree, or every thing you ever encounter... if there is a reason to question something , fine, but otherwise you would believe it.
That's my point with this spell, it makes you want to believe it and make excuses for it, not question it. And although it says you can use your action to examine the phantasm, the rest of the spell says the target will make excuses for why it's real... so that means you wouldn't use your action to examine the phantasm.
It seems like a bit of a paradox to me.
It comes down to how it's being used, IMO. If it's a minor, believable thing, then sure - no reason to ever question it, certainly not if you are alone and failed the save. In that case, you accept it and move on. The more unbelievable the application, the more reason to question it, though - moreso if you are in a group and some of the others make the save and tell you it's an illusion. It very much depends on the situation.
Again, with most illusions I agree with this opinion for the most part. But Phantasmal Force is only in the mind of the target so others don't get a save... and if they do notice you doing something weird (they don't automatically know you are affected by an illusion), the spell states you will essentially make excuses for why you believe in the phantasm.
That is what I find so vexing about this spell. It is only 2nd level, and there are constrictions by which it has to abide (duration, concentration, and so forth), but it is not a cantrip or 1st level spell and it does do what it says it does. It has to be given it's credit in it's diabolical nature of tormenting the target.
Has anyone read the full spell description. I mean really read it through carefully, slowly... maybe even twice or more. It can be deadly if a clever enough illusion is created.
I don't know what else to tell you, really. I guess I'd just be much more flexible in my rulings. It can be used to deadly effect, sure, and would seem to be much more effective if the target is alone and has no one to intercede on his behalf. I'd still allow a fair amount of flexibility in having a chance to investigate it though, even more if others are present to argue against what he thinks he sees. Up to the DM, so YMMV. I'm more a rule of cool kind of DM than a strict by the book type.
I agree, because it can be deadly in the right situation, maybe giving the intelligence check it says you can take during your action is only fair. But then again, is it, is it really? I mean this spell says the target will go out of his way to believe the phantasm even making excuses and such... seems like to give the extra intelligence check is to go against the design of the spell.
Think of it this way, if someone casts Fireball it does 8d6 fire damage right. But what if someone then ignored what the spell said it did. With a clear cut spell such as Fireball that probably wouldn't fly. By ignoring what Phantasmal Force does you deny the power of the spell, which is no Fireball I'll give you that, but shouldn't it have a chance to do what it says it does.
I'm not sure why I'm arguing this point so much, but ask yourselves, why are you arguing against it so much?
We've all read it.
If the phantasm is attacking you and doing damage you will react, your allies will see you react to a threat, and so your allies will surely question what you're doing - and that is more than enough to lead to someone examining it. If your allies are not questioning it, or you are alone, you are likely going to start moving away from the threat when you realise you're losing the fight (seeing as you cannot damage it) - the illusion can't move from its 10ft cube, so you are safe as soon as you move away even if you believe it might follow you. One minute later and the phantasm is gone, all is well.
If it's not attacking you, then it's not really doing you harm unless, as per the example on the spell itself, it's a fake bridge you've fallen through. The check for that is the initial saving throw against the spell.
Otherwise a minute passes and the spell ends.
There are many similar spells, even ones of lower level. Consider the Minor Illusion cantrip. You can create sounds and images with it - why question those? In this instance everyone can see the illusion, and the illusions are simpler and are revealed on touching them, but you can still Minor Illusion a (small) false bridge, or hide a small door/window, or even lure someone with a voice - with no saving throw at all if you rule your players or NPCs cannot hear and see the spellcaster, and any players involved do not conclude it could be false by their own deduction.
Illusions scale by the cleverness of their use and the fairness of the DM. A creative player can do all sorts with them, even fooling dragons with only low level spells.
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Yes that is true, and part of my point, with Minor Illusion or other illusion based spells other usually see them... not so with Phantasmal Force, and because others see them those who save can help those who don't... but one thing to consider is this example:
Scenario 1: there is a brick wall at the end of an alley
Scenario 2: there is an illusion of a brick wall at the end of an alley
in which scenario do you get to disbelieve an illusion... both? neither? why?
And there could be a situation where you can't escape the illusion from Phantasmal Force so the spell doesn't end, it keeps going for it's full duration, and the target makes excuses for why it's real that whole time. (the target falls into a pit of acid and steel bars close over the top... no running away or escaping that)
Also the dimensions of the illusion are a 10-foot cube, it doesn't say it's stationary, in fact the spell has a range which means you could have the danger/threat chase the target around so long as you didn't exceed the range of the spell.
All I'm arguing for is common sense in the interpretation. Instant blast of a fireball? There will be no investigation there - you take the damage. But there are plenty of other cases were a chance to investigate or explore makes sense.
RE: Your brick wall. Your party walks through it, clear case of a chance to investigate. If you are alone, then no. Steel bars close you in a pit - would you examine it to try and find a way to open it? Yep. Fall in a pit of acid - I'd say you take the damage in that case. You'd try to get out, sure, but not disbelieve that it's actually burning you. Again, look at the situation and make a common sense ruling. Done. I think you are way overthinking it at this point. There can't be a hard and fast rule.
There is a range to cast the spell, and once cast, it fills up to the 10' cube in a specific spot within that range. It never says it's movable. You can't relocate it round to round to chase someone. Spells that allow you to do that, Dancing Lights for example, say so.
how do walk through a brick wall... in scenario 1 the wall is real, and in scenario 2 why would you try to walk through a brick wall?
with all other illusions, sure depending on the situation I can understand getting a chance to disbelieve it... but with this spell it states you make excuses as to why it is real, that doesn't sound like getting a chance to disbelieve it, quite the opposite in fact... it could even be argued that if an ally was around and warned you, you would probably call them a liar and continue to believe in the phantasm.
maybe it is stationary, it does say later than that if the phantasm is something that can cause damage it will continue to do so to the target if it remains within 5 feet of the phantasm
but it also says... While a target is affected by the spell, the target treats the phantasm as if it were real.
and... An affected target is so convinced of the phantasm's reality that it can even take damage from the illusion.
Agree with all of you that this spell can be very powerful (not deadly), and versatile.
I find that it can be a simple way to apply to the target conditions like blind (an illusion of a dense fog), deaf (a loud and penetrating sound coming from somewhere), and even prone (the ceiling is lowering rapidly).
A nice one I had imagined is the use against the BBEG,l fighting in melee. If the illusion would be of a hole opening on the ground, fire and lava coming up (dealing fire damage too), then the BBEG in case he fails the save will surely step back from that, provoking attacks of opportunity from all the fighters.
Another use can be a social one: if you want to convince someone like a guard to let you pass, you could make him think that his captain appears ordering him to let you pass.
I’m not sure of the stationery rule, but maybe you are right, otherwise it would be too powerful for a 2nd level spell.
Also to the brick wall example, he would run right through the brick wall. The wall isn't actually there, he would rationalize that the wall broke, but would take damage because you know running into a wall hurts.
or maybe he would rationalize that he didn't break the wall... remember, he is rationalizing to maintain the illusion not break it with some damage or penalty
in the example they give he falls through the illusion of the bridge but does not rationalize that the bridge isn't there, quite the opposite in fact and might even go so far as to try it again and fall through again
this is a nasty illusion compared to some others
PF illusion, the target only sees, so if the party does not perceive the PF brick wall and just continues down the actual open alley to another street they would appear to walk through it. If it is a deadly pit that surrounds the target and during combat a party member runs right over the pit because to them it is not there I could see trying to investigate.