When THP absorb damage, you are still taking the damage
If you have 0 hp, you have 0 hp even when you have THP
If you take damage while you have 0 hp, you suffer a death saving throw failure
Each of those statements has been quoted individually above. When you read them all together, we reach the conclusion that having THP cannot save you from suffering a death saving throw failure when you take damage while at 0 hp.
And this is the problem. Conceptually THP count both as "you" and "not you" at the same time. And that is by the designers intent (as expressed in the SAC/tweets). The actual text in the PHB reads a lot more like it should be a separate thing (as up2ng has shown).
So, what are temporary hit points in the context of the game?
Let’s take an example from the spell, Armor of Agathys:
“A protective magical force surrounds you, manifesting as a spectral frost that covers you and your gear. You gain 5 temporary hit points for the duration.”
Or False Life:
“Bolstering yourself with a necromantic facsimile of life, you gain 1d4 + 4 temporary hit points for the duration.”
Or Heroism:
”A willing creature you touch is imbued with bravery. Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to being frightened and gains temporary hit points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns. When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.”
Or Enhance Ability:
”You touch a creature and bestow upon it a magical enhancement. Choose one of the following effects; the target gains that effect until the spell ends.
Bear's Endurance. The target has advantage on Constitution checks. It also gains 2d6 temporary hit points, which are lost when the spell ends.”
Or Guardian of Nature:
”A nature spirit answers your call and transforms you into a powerful guardian. The transformation lasts until the spell ends. You choose one of the following forms to assume: Primal Beast or Great Tree.
Great Tree. Your skin appears barky, leaves sprout from your hair, and you gain the following benefits:
You make Constitution saving throws with advantage.
You make Dexterity- and Wisdom-based attack rolls with advantage.
While you are on the ground, the ground within 15 feet of you is difficult terrain for your enemies.”
Or Tenser’s Transformation:
“You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:
You gain 50 temporary hit points. If any of these remain when the spell ends, they are lost.
You have advantage on attack rolls that you make with simple and martial weapons.
When you hit a target with a weapon attack, that target takes an extra 2d12 force damage.
You have proficiency with all armor, shields, simple weapons, and martial weapons.
You have proficiency in Strength and Constitution saving throws.
You can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the Attack action on your turn. You ignore this benefit if you already have a feature, like Extra Attack, that gives you extra attacks.”
Some of these sound like an outside protective force or substance (i.e. Armor of Agathys)
While others sound like a direct bolstering of the body (i.e. False Life)
At the same time, there are other spells (such as Hero’s Feast) that directly bolster the body by increasing maximum hit points, rather than extra hit points that cannot be gained back.
Or other spells and abilities (such as Stoneskin) that grant resistance to specific damage types as a form of protection.
Some of these are able to combine (Resistance, Hit point maximum increase, and temporary hit points can all coexist)
While others cannot (temporary hit points substitute lesser temporary hit points and resistance doesn’t stack)
Please quote some text from the rulebooks that support these above claims . . .
I am quoting from this SAC entry, which is considered RAW for the purposes of this channel. If you are narrowing the scope of your request to something specifically from the PHB or other published rule books, then you can disregard my answer... it's meant for the larger discussion.
That’s a bad ruling as it contradicts actual RAW in several places.
Be that as it may, I was asked to cite my source and there it is.
When THP absorb damage, you are still taking the damage
If you have 0 hp, you have 0 hp even when you have THP
If you take damage while you have 0 hp, you suffer a death saving throw failure
Each of those statements has been quoted individually above. When you read them all together, we reach the conclusion that having THP cannot save you from suffering a death saving throw failure when you take damage while at 0 hp.
And this is the problem. Conceptually THP count both as "you" and "not you" at the same time. And that is by the designers intent (as expressed in the SAC/tweets). The actual text in the PHB reads a lot more like it should be a separate thing (as up2ng has shown).
I see it a little differently. THP is still "you" in the context of who is taking the damage. They are just another pool of points to which numerical damage is applied before your (normal) hit points when you take damage. In either case, you're still taking the damage, as opposed to the arcane ward, which takes the damage in your place. The rule for THP just tells you to apply that numerical damage to a different pool with its own special rules. In the case of death saving throws, they are not numerical damage. If you're at 0 hp, and you take damage, you fail a death saving throw irrespective of the absence or presence of temporary hit points.
I don't see any contradiction in the three rules I listed, although I acknowledge the points raised on the other side of the discussion.
(Edited for clarity and to make my point more concisely)
So, what are temporary hit points in the context of the game?
To me, precise details about something like this are usually left up to the DM and the players to decide as part of their storytelling. As you've pointed out, it appears that temporary hit points can take on many forms.
But, in general, the description says that: "they are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury".
I kind of wonder if it would have been better if the name of this mechanic (Temporary Hit Points) was something else that didn't reference hit points within its name -- perhaps it could be called something like "Damage Buffer", for example. The main reason is because:
Temporary hit points aren't actual hit points
so this name is just automatically confusing.
The way I am still reading it, temporary hit points is not more hit points. It's a thing (a pool, if you will) which has its own hit points which act as a "buffer against damage" by "absorbing damage directed at you". Or possibly, it's a group of things, each of which have 1 hit point, but which function in the same way.
So, what if this mechanic was called "Damage Buffer" instead? Then, the rules might read something like this:
Damage Buffer
Some spells and special abilities confer a damage buffer to a creature. It is a buffer against damage, which has a pool of hit points that protect you from injury. You cannot have more than one damage buffer at a time . . .
or if we wanted it to remain plural:
Damage Buffers
Some spells and special abilities confer a pool of damage buffers to a creature. They are a buffer against damage. Each damage buffer within the pool has 1 hit point that protects you from injury. You cannot have more than one pool of damage buffers at a time . . .
100% agree, and even the sentence that tells us they are not hit points does something kind of funky at the end of it:
Temporary hit points aren’t actual hit points; they are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury.
So, the beginning of the sentence tells us they are not actual hit points, but the end of that same sentence tells us they are a pool of hit points. WTF?
You answered your own question earlier with the basic rules quote
When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points. For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage.
You're taking damage regardless of temp HP being present. They definitely could've chosen better phrasing, yet it's clear that the authors consider the fact that damage is being dealt to you as their fundamental premise before determining how much HP is actually lost.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Honestly, to me that appears to be another incorrect ruling from Sage Advice. There are several rules regarding temporary hit points in Chapter 9 that directly contradicts this ruling:
Temporary hit points . . . are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury.
and
For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage.
and
If you have 0 hit points, receiving temporary hit points doesn't restore you to consciousness or stabilize you. They can still absorb damage directed at you while you're in that state, but only true healing can save you.
So now we have to use all of that information to resolve this rule:
Damage at 0 Hit Points. If you take any damage while you have 0 hit points, you suffer a death saving throw failure.
I would rule that if you are at 0 HP and unstable but you do have temporary hit points, then any incoming damage must exceed your total temporary hit points in order to cause you to suffer a death saving throw failure.
I was rereading your original post on the thread, and I don't see a contradiction with the portions of the rule you quoted and the SAC entry.
Temporary Hit points actually does nothing for you while you have 0 hit points, you’re still taking damage and thus suffer a death saving throw failure.
I would say that THP do almost nothing for you while you have 0 hit points. THP still absorb numerical damage, and the one time I can think of where this would matter is if you're at 0 hit points, and you have 50 max hit points and 5 temporary hit points. If you take a hit for 53 points of damage, your THP will cause the damage not to kill you instantly. I can't really think of other times when rolling damage would be relevant to a character who is at 0 hit points.
First, my answer is the last option: That they do nothing until the player is conscious.
Let's address a few points here...
1. Receiving temp HP doesn't stabilize or return you to consciousness. -This is absolutely undebatable. It's in the THP part of the Combat chapter in the PHB. 2. Phrasing issue: "Temporary hit points aren't actual hit points; they are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury." -This is phrasing used to demonstrate what they represent; the use of the word "buffer" here doesn't mean it isn't also damage being dealt to the PC. Regardless of what spell or ability is applied to add THP, whether it bolsters the body or adds magical shielding, they're still a pool of extra hit points and are treated as such. 3. Phrasing issue: "When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points. For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage." -This is only telling the order to apply damage in; it isn't saying that damage to your THP doesn't count as real damage. 4. "They can still absorb damage directed at you while you're in that state, but only true healing can save you." -Again, we have a word that people are running with: "absorb". Here's the issue. People are comparing that phrasing to the Arcane Ward, but this is an invalid comparison because nothing about THP says this is a separate thing taking damage. The THP are still part of you, just not your base HP, which is why the damage counts regardless. The word absorb doesn't mean you take less, it means it's soaking up the damage first. To see the distinction, only the Arcane Ward uses the keyword "instead" to show it's a replacement effect.
These points are why the SAC ruling was made the way it was: Damage is still treated as damage, even if you have temporary hit points. It still causes concentration saving throws to be made as normal. If THP were meant to prevent that, it would have to explicitly state that.
All of you incorrectly giving the first two answers or arguing for them are simply falling for the pitfall of 5e's use of common language.
You're taking damage regardless . . . as their fundamental premise . . .
Sigred, I am curious, do you feel the same way about arcane ward?
No, specifically because Arcane Ward isn't temp HP.
First, it has its own distinct permanent pool of HP, that is not a part of yours, which (unlike temp HP) can be regained. That's a major distinction. Second, the feature explicitly specifies that the ward takes damage instead of you. Third, Projected Ward allows the ward to take damage instead of a creature other than yourself. Further, if such an intervention brings the ward down to 0 HP, the warded creature takes the remaining damage, not you.
Arcane Ward can be thought of as an incorporeal summonable object that exists solely to throw itself in front of attacks.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
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And this is the problem. Conceptually THP count both as "you" and "not you" at the same time. And that is by the designers intent (as expressed in the SAC/tweets). The actual text in the PHB reads a lot more like it should be a separate thing (as up2ng has shown).
So, what are temporary hit points in the context of the game?
Let’s take an example from the spell, Armor of Agathys:
“A protective magical force surrounds you, manifesting as a spectral frost that covers you and your gear. You gain 5 temporary hit points for the duration.”
Or False Life:
“Bolstering yourself with a necromantic facsimile of life, you gain 1d4 + 4 temporary hit points for the duration.”
Or Heroism:
”A willing creature you touch is imbued with bravery. Until the spell ends, the creature is immune to being frightened and gains temporary hit points equal to your spellcasting ability modifier at the start of each of its turns. When the spell ends, the target loses any remaining temporary hit points from this spell.”
Or Enhance Ability:
”You touch a creature and bestow upon it a magical enhancement. Choose one of the following effects; the target gains that effect until the spell ends.
Bear's Endurance. The target has advantage on Constitution checks. It also gains 2d6 temporary hit points, which are lost when the spell ends.”
Or Guardian of Nature:
”A nature spirit answers your call and transforms you into a powerful guardian. The transformation lasts until the spell ends. You choose one of the following forms to assume: Primal Beast or Great Tree.
Great Tree. Your skin appears barky, leaves sprout from your hair, and you gain the following benefits:
Or Tenser’s Transformation:
“You endow yourself with endurance and martial prowess fueled by magic. Until the spell ends, you can’t cast spells, and you gain the following benefits:
Some of these sound like an outside protective force or substance (i.e. Armor of Agathys)
While others sound like a direct bolstering of the body (i.e. False Life)
At the same time, there are other spells (such as Hero’s Feast) that directly bolster the body by increasing maximum hit points, rather than extra hit points that cannot be gained back.
Or other spells and abilities (such as Stoneskin) that grant resistance to specific damage types as a form of protection.
Some of these are able to combine (Resistance, Hit point maximum increase, and temporary hit points can all coexist)
While others cannot (temporary hit points substitute lesser temporary hit points and resistance doesn’t stack)
Be that as it may, I was asked to cite my source and there it is.
I see it a little differently. THP is still "you" in the context of who is taking the damage. They are just another pool of points to which numerical damage is applied before your (normal) hit points when you take damage. In either case, you're still taking the damage, as opposed to the arcane ward, which takes the damage in your place. The rule for THP just tells you to apply that numerical damage to a different pool with its own special rules. In the case of death saving throws, they are not numerical damage. If you're at 0 hp, and you take damage, you fail a death saving throw irrespective of the absence or presence of temporary hit points.
I don't see any contradiction in the three rules I listed, although I acknowledge the points raised on the other side of the discussion.
(Edited for clarity and to make my point more concisely)
"Not all those who wander are lost"
To me, precise details about something like this are usually left up to the DM and the players to decide as part of their storytelling. As you've pointed out, it appears that temporary hit points can take on many forms.
But, in general, the description says that: "they are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury".
I kind of wonder if it would have been better if the name of this mechanic (Temporary Hit Points) was something else that didn't reference hit points within its name -- perhaps it could be called something like "Damage Buffer", for example. The main reason is because:
so this name is just automatically confusing.
The way I am still reading it, temporary hit points is not more hit points. It's a thing (a pool, if you will) which has its own hit points which act as a "buffer against damage" by "absorbing damage directed at you". Or possibly, it's a group of things, each of which have 1 hit point, but which function in the same way.
So, what if this mechanic was called "Damage Buffer" instead? Then, the rules might read something like this:
Damage Buffer
Some spells and special abilities confer a damage buffer to a creature. It is a buffer against damage, which has a pool of hit points that protect you from injury. You cannot have more than one damage buffer at a time . . .
or if we wanted it to remain plural:
Damage Buffers
Some spells and special abilities confer a pool of damage buffers to a creature. They are a buffer against damage. Each damage buffer within the pool has 1 hit point that protects you from injury. You cannot have more than one pool of damage buffers at a time . . .
Anyway, you get the idea.
100% agree, and even the sentence that tells us they are not hit points does something kind of funky at the end of it:
Temporary hit points aren’t actual hit points; they are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury.
So, the beginning of the sentence tells us they are not actual hit points, but the end of that same sentence tells us they are a pool of hit points. WTF?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
You answered your own question earlier with the basic rules quote
You're taking damage regardless of temp HP being present. They definitely could've chosen better phrasing, yet it's clear that the authors consider the fact that damage is being dealt to you as their fundamental premise before determining how much HP is actually lost.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Sigred, I am curious, do you feel the same way about arcane ward?
I was rereading your original post on the thread, and I don't see a contradiction with the portions of the rule you quoted and the SAC entry.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This is a decent-sized thread already. Hm.
First, my answer is the last option: That they do nothing until the player is conscious.
Let's address a few points here...
1. Receiving temp HP doesn't stabilize or return you to consciousness.
-This is absolutely undebatable. It's in the THP part of the Combat chapter in the PHB.
2. Phrasing issue: "Temporary hit points aren't actual hit points; they are a buffer against damage, a pool of hit points that protect you from injury."
-This is phrasing used to demonstrate what they represent; the use of the word "buffer" here doesn't mean it isn't also damage being dealt to the PC. Regardless of what spell or ability is applied to add THP, whether it bolsters the body or adds magical shielding, they're still a pool of extra hit points and are treated as such.
3. Phrasing issue: "When you have temporary hit points and take damage, the temporary hit points are lost first, and any leftover damage carries over to your normal hit points. For example, if you have 5 temporary hit points and take 7 damage, you lose the temporary hit points and then take 2 damage."
-This is only telling the order to apply damage in; it isn't saying that damage to your THP doesn't count as real damage.
4. "They can still absorb damage directed at you while you're in that state, but only true healing can save you."
-Again, we have a word that people are running with: "absorb". Here's the issue. People are comparing that phrasing to the Arcane Ward, but this is an invalid comparison because nothing about THP says this is a separate thing taking damage. The THP are still part of you, just not your base HP, which is why the damage counts regardless. The word absorb doesn't mean you take less, it means it's soaking up the damage first. To see the distinction, only the Arcane Ward uses the keyword "instead" to show it's a replacement effect.
These points are why the SAC ruling was made the way it was: Damage is still treated as damage, even if you have temporary hit points. It still causes concentration saving throws to be made as normal. If THP were meant to prevent that, it would have to explicitly state that.
All of you incorrectly giving the first two answers or arguing for them are simply falling for the pitfall of 5e's use of common language.
No, specifically because Arcane Ward isn't temp HP.
First, it has its own distinct permanent pool of HP, that is not a part of yours, which (unlike temp HP) can be regained. That's a major distinction. Second, the feature explicitly specifies that the ward takes damage instead of you. Third, Projected Ward allows the ward to take damage instead of a creature other than yourself. Further, if such an intervention brings the ward down to 0 HP, the warded creature takes the remaining damage, not you.
Arcane Ward can be thought of as an incorporeal summonable object that exists solely to throw itself in front of attacks.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.