I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
That rule in the DMG is not an excuse for sloppiness elsewhere. Yes, there will always be edge cases, but this isn't an edge case, this is just straight up wrong. The real problem is that polymorph effects should state "the temporary hit points last until the spell ends and are lost when the duration expires" (currently, you can cast a level 4 polymorph spell to turn someone into a giant ape, granting them 157 temp hit points, and immediately drop concentration, at which point they have 157 temp hp and no restrictions on what they can do).
I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
That rule in the DMG is not an excuse for sloppiness elsewhere. Yes, there will always be edge cases, but this isn't an edge case, this is just straight up wrong. The real problem is that polymorph effects should state "the temporary hit points last until the spell ends and are lost when the duration expires" (currently, you can cast a level 4 polymorph spell to turn someone into a giant ape, granting them 157 temp hit points, and immediately drop concentration, at which point they have 157 temp hp and no restrictions on what they can do).
Again,
"Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light."
We've gone over this before in other threads, so I'm not gonna rehash it. It's a Concentration spell, and all effects drop when Concentration ends. The effects of a spell are listed right after the spell duration, per CH7 of the PHB.
It's utterly ridiculous to claim that you can cast Polymorph and then drop concentration to get tons of THP, but you're being too literal-minded to see past your own interpretation. It's a bad faith reading, and people are right to call you on it
I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Yes, there is a good faith interpretation guideline in the DMG. But when there is a very clearly stated rule about when temp hit points end I don't think people are necessarily acting in bad faith seeing the rule and taking it at its word. I think most people invested in the game enough to be here probably know the intent, but random table #5 who isn't nearly as invested in gaming as forum dwellers, not so sure on that. So, the rules should be clearer, and a lol we can't write clear rules just interpret them right rule doesn't help.
Those guidelines are not just for players that are trying to exploit the rules, but also for players that are too literal in their interpretations that they can't accept other readings and end up creating friction at the table.
RAI, True Polymorph is supposed to work similar to 2014 but with THP instead and with limitations to spellcasting and speech.
RAW, WotC used the text from Mass Polymorph to update the Polymorph spells, and they removed extra bits of pieces that should have remained, or in the case of True Polymorph, removed without modifications.
That rule in the DMG is not an excuse for sloppiness elsewhere.
Author sloppiness is not an excuse to break your game or get into an argument with your DM or fellow players. Presenting an argument as: "WotC messed up and True Polymorph text is incorrect" is very different from presenting an argument as : "This is the new RAW so is how it should work in game even though it doesn't make sense." Could I ask which of these is closer to your actual position? If you were DMing how would you run True Polymorph for your villains/players?
"Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light."
Again, that sort of workaround is acceptable for edge cases, but common use cases should work properly without such intervention.
I'm going to cherrypick this sentence of yours ;) and also leave this here from the DMG:
Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light.
Yes, there is a good faith interpretation guideline in the DMG. But when there is a very clearly stated rule about when temp hit points end I don't think people are necessarily acting in bad faith seeing the rule and taking it at its word. I think most people invested in the game enough to be here probably know the intent, but random table #5 who isn't nearly as invested in gaming as forum dwellers, not so sure on that. So, the rules should be clearer, and a lol we can't write clear rules just interpret them right rule doesn't help.
Those guidelines are not just for players that are trying to exploit the rules, but also for players that are too literal in their interpretations that they can't accept other readings and end up creating friction at the table.
RAI, True Polymorph is supposed to work similar to 2014 but with THP instead and with limitations to spellcasting and speech.
RAW, WotC used the text from Mass Polymorph to update the Polymorph spells, and they removed extra bits of pieces that should have remained, or in the case of True Polymorph, removed without modifications.
I suspect many maybe most players and DMs are not hard-core gamers, they just play the game and will accept a rule at face value. And it will impact their game negatively. I am sure they will figure it out, but they shouldn't have to.
I am boggled people keep defending bad rules writing. Under hey the players should know better excuse. Yes, it's not intended. Yes, almost no one here will run it that way. So, it won't impact their tables. But also yes, it is poorly written. You are paying a decent amount of money for these books; they should do better. You are the consumer; you should be asking the giant corporation to do better not your fellow consumers.
And this is coming from someone who says there is a RAW interpretation that temp hit points go away when the spell is up. But one extra line in duration that said something like when a spell with a duration ends all its effects other than damage done end with it even if the effect normally has its own method of ending. Get a technically writer to slap that idea out and this problem never would have come up.
Temp hit points are the current point of contention, but some kind of curse spell that gave people a magical contagion(I miss the old contagion spell both of which really should be on the warlock list). If the spell or power has a duration, you will know the contagion goes away when the spell ends, whereas if it was instant, you will know the normal rules for that contagion and defeating it apply. That extra line solves the current issue but also any future spells/effects that may come up down the line.
So, while yes rules should be read in a good faith way, the designers should do their best to write their rules in a way that people don't need to.
And this is coming from someone who says there is a RAW interpretation that temp hit points go away when the spell is up. But one extra line in duration that said something like when a spell with a duration ends all its effects other than damage done end with it even if the effect normally has its own method of ending.
Well, you have to account for instant spells, but changing duration from
Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or you finish a Long Rest (see the rules glossary).
to
Temporary Hit Points last until they’re depleted or the effect that granted them expires (if granted by an Instantaneous effect, they last until you finish a Long Rest (see the rules glossary)).
is probably closer to the intent of the rules.
5e could be a lot better by just having a decent tech writer give it a pass, or probably with a closed beta process with some technically minded people. These aren't super subtle problems.
That rule in the DMG is not an excuse for sloppiness elsewhere. Yes, there will always be edge cases, but this isn't an edge case, this is just straight up wrong. The real problem is that polymorph effects should state "the temporary hit points last until the spell ends and are lost when the duration expires" (currently, you can cast a level 4 polymorph spell to turn someone into a giant ape, granting them 157 temp hit points, and immediately drop concentration, at which point they have 157 temp hp and no restrictions on what they can do).
Again,
"Rules Rely on Good-Faith Interpretation. The rules assume that everyone reading and interpreting the rules has the interests of the group’s fun at heart and is reading the rules in that light."
We've gone over this before in other threads, so I'm not gonna rehash it. It's a Concentration spell, and all effects drop when Concentration ends. The effects of a spell are listed right after the spell duration, per CH7 of the PHB.
It's utterly ridiculous to claim that you can cast Polymorph and then drop concentration to get tons of THP, but you're being too literal-minded to see past your own interpretation. It's a bad faith reading, and people are right to call you on it
Those guidelines are not just for players that are trying to exploit the rules, but also for players that are too literal in their interpretations that they can't accept other readings and end up creating friction at the table.
RAI, True Polymorph is supposed to work similar to 2014 but with THP instead and with limitations to spellcasting and speech.
RAW, WotC used the text from Mass Polymorph to update the Polymorph spells, and they removed extra bits of pieces that should have remained, or in the case of True Polymorph, removed without modifications.
Author sloppiness is not an excuse to break your game or get into an argument with your DM or fellow players. Presenting an argument as: "WotC messed up and True Polymorph text is incorrect" is very different from presenting an argument as : "This is the new RAW so is how it should work in game even though it doesn't make sense." Could I ask which of these is closer to your actual position? If you were DMing how would you run True Polymorph for your villains/players?
Again, that sort of workaround is acceptable for edge cases, but common use cases should work properly without such intervention.
I would write house rules so the spell actually works properly.
I suspect many maybe most players and DMs are not hard-core gamers, they just play the game and will accept a rule at face value. And it will impact their game negatively. I am sure they will figure it out, but they shouldn't have to.
I am boggled people keep defending bad rules writing. Under hey the players should know better excuse. Yes, it's not intended. Yes, almost no one here will run it that way. So, it won't impact their tables. But also yes, it is poorly written. You are paying a decent amount of money for these books; they should do better. You are the consumer; you should be asking the giant corporation to do better not your fellow consumers.
And this is coming from someone who says there is a RAW interpretation that temp hit points go away when the spell is up. But one extra line in duration that said something like when a spell with a duration ends all its effects other than damage done end with it even if the effect normally has its own method of ending. Get a technically writer to slap that idea out and this problem never would have come up.
Temp hit points are the current point of contention, but some kind of curse spell that gave people a magical contagion(I miss the old contagion spell both of which really should be on the warlock list). If the spell or power has a duration, you will know the contagion goes away when the spell ends, whereas if it was instant, you will know the normal rules for that contagion and defeating it apply. That extra line solves the current issue but also any future spells/effects that may come up down the line.
So, while yes rules should be read in a good faith way, the designers should do their best to write their rules in a way that people don't need to.
Well, you have to account for instant spells, but changing duration from
to
is probably closer to the intent of the rules.
5e could be a lot better by just having a decent tech writer give it a pass, or probably with a closed beta process with some technically minded people. These aren't super subtle problems.
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