I think I know the answer to this, but wanted to be sure:
Savage Attacker, the Origin feat, states: "You’ve trained to deal particularly damaging strikes. Once per turn when you hit a target with a weapon, you can roll the weapon’s damage dice twice and use either roll against the target."
Does this mean that you ONLY re-roll the die/dice granted by the weapon itself, and no additional dice included in the damage roll? So for example, the greatsword would only get to reroll 2d6 regardless of whatever other damage dice are included?
"The weapon's damage dice" is the damage dice granted by the weapon (as opposed to some other source). Arguably it does work for something like a flame tongue.
Advantage on weapon damage isn't THAT bad, it doesn't require resources, it'd something that just happens and allows you to have more consistently higher numbers.
You might low roll the extra 2d8 from booming, but choosing the 7 instead of the 1 you rolled on your weapon damage is definitely a plus
It's been pointed out that the average damage boost is low. I'd like to point out it makes that damage more consistent at least, reducing low rolls in important moments. May not be terribly impactful, but I could see it being enough. Especially with magic weapons that deal extra damage as part of the weapon damage.
Savage Attacker is the 2nd worse Origin Feat for sure, only Crafter is worse.
I'd say the best choices are Alert, Magic Initiative, Musician and Lucky, for sure. Alert and Magic Initiative can be good on all classes (even barbarian can benefit from Magic Initiative), Musician tends to be more for a support character, Lucky is good for anybody making saving throws or for rogue to get sneak attacks when they other wise wouldn't be able too.
Healer, Tavern Brawler and Tough are build dependent but can be good. Healer can work on Cleric, Druid, Ranger and Paladin, Tavern Brawler can work on Monk, Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin while Tough can work on any class but often is not as good as other origin feats, thus really for characters with questionable survivability.
Savage Attacker and Crafter I'd almost say are complete traps. Savage Attacker increases damage by a very minimum amount and Crafter saves a bit of coin early on while giving access to temporary items that mostly just cost a trivial amount of coin instead. Their biggest issue is that they are only really relevant in Tier 1 unlike literally every other origin feat, they both need to scale and neither does.
There are multiple ways to redesign Savage Attacker, I personally would make Savage Attacker increase the critical threat range of weapon attacks by +1 (so you critical hit on a 19 or a 20, instead of just a 20) and then add Proficiency Bonus as (force or weapon type) bonus damage to any critical hits made on a weapon attack. It's actually less damage early on but more damage later on, some builds get a lot damage and damage actually scales.
Crafter almost needs a complete redesign, stop gap is to just over a wider range of less common items for fast crafting as levels progress.
It just doesn't do much of anything. The average effect maxes out at +2 damage.
I agree it's on the weaker side of the origin options, but this isn't 100% correct.
Like Athanar90 points out, consistency is important at low levels when most characters only get 1 attack and monster HP values are low, so 2-3 damage can actually be the difference between a monster living another round or not.
If you're a greatsword fan, don't take this feat. Greatswords are more likely to hit for average damage, so you'll see fewer opportunities for rerolls, and you're less likely to get an above-average roll if you do.
Anyways I don't believe this feat is aimed at stats-crunching min/maxers, imo it's more for players that have a strong negative reaction to seeing low dice rolls. I always got a lot of pushback for saying the 2014 Champion is borderline worthless because getting 1 extra crit every 20 d20 throws barely does anything, but a certain subset of players really loves their crits. If everyone that rolls dice were rational, casinos wouldn't be in business.
Unless I am wrong, the current form of savage attacker is no longer a retroactive decision to re-roll and then use the higher result, it is made at the time of a weapon hit. So you don't get to see a 3 and decide to reroll after. It's very unclear in the feat but the section regarding re-roll was removed from 2014 to 2024.
Overall, I suspect many DMs will rule to play it like the 2014 version since the 2024 is very unclear about exactly when you decide to roll the weapons damage twice, if you can decide to do so after the first roll or if it must be made at the time of confirming the hit itself. That and the 2014 version is just more viable than how I read the 2024 version, as unclear as it is. It is still a very weak feat but not quiet as weak as the latter iteration.
Also it wouldn't work with Cleave, since it works on a per weapon hit basis, Cleave is a separate hit and so you can only use savage attacker on the first hit or the second hit, not both.
Unless I am wrong, the current form of savage attacker is no longer a retroactive decision to re-roll and then use the higher result, it is made at the time of a weapon hit. So you don't get to see a 3 and decide to reroll after. It's very unclear in the feat but the section regarding re-roll was removed from 2014 to 2024.
Oof, you're right. I did not read it carefully enough. They removed the one thing it had going for it.
Unless I am wrong, the current form of savage attacker is no longer a retroactive decision to re-roll and then use the higher result, it is made at the time of a weapon hit. So you don't get to see a 3 and decide to reroll after. It's very unclear in the feat but the section regarding re-roll was removed from 2014 to 2024.
Oof, you're right. I did not read it carefully enough. They removed the one thing it had going for it.
There’s nothing saying when you must choose to roll the weapon dice twice. Therefore, at least in my interpretation, you can choose to roll twice after you’ve rolled once.
Unless I am wrong, the current form of savage attacker is no longer a retroactive decision to re-roll and then use the higher result, it is made at the time of a weapon hit. So you don't get to see a 3 and decide to reroll after. It's very unclear in the feat but the section regarding re-roll was removed from 2014 to 2024.
Oof, you're right. I did not read it carefully enough. They removed the one thing it had going for it.
There’s nothing saying when you must choose to roll the weapon dice twice. Therefore, at least in my interpretation, you can choose to roll twice after you’ve rolled once.
There’s nothing saying when you must choose to roll the weapon dice twice.
Yes there is. "Once per turn when you hit" means you must make the decision when you hit (i.e. before rolling damage).
I see what you mean.
However, my thoughts:
1) The “when you hit clause” is necessary to prevent players applying the SA on turns even when they don’t make a weapon attack.
2) The rules have to be functional even for a (e.g. new) player with only a single physical set of dice. Thus, rolling twice can mean rolling the same die two times in succession. The feat only specifies rolling twice: there is no stipulation about declaring your choice to roll twice before the first roll. Thus, the choice can come between roll 1 and roll 2 and you will still be rolling twice when you hit.
Hope that makes sense.
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I think I know the answer to this, but wanted to be sure:
Savage Attacker, the Origin feat, states: "You’ve trained to deal particularly damaging strikes. Once per turn when you hit a target with a weapon, you can roll the weapon’s damage dice twice and use either roll against the target."
Does this mean that you ONLY re-roll the die/dice granted by the weapon itself, and no additional dice included in the damage roll? So for example, the greatsword would only get to reroll 2d6 regardless of whatever other damage dice are included?
Eternal #DnD Dungeon Master
"The weapon's damage dice" is the damage dice granted by the weapon (as opposed to some other source). Arguably it does work for something like a flame tongue.
And if this seems bad... you're right.
Advantage on weapon damage isn't THAT bad, it doesn't require resources, it'd something that just happens and allows you to have more consistently higher numbers.
You might low roll the extra 2d8 from booming, but choosing the 7 instead of the 1 you rolled on your weapon damage is definitely a plus
It just doesn't do much of anything. The average effect maxes out at +2 damage.
It's been pointed out that the average damage boost is low. I'd like to point out it makes that damage more consistent at least, reducing low rolls in important moments. May not be terribly impactful, but I could see it being enough. Especially with magic weapons that deal extra damage as part of the weapon damage.
Savage Attacker is the 2nd worse Origin Feat for sure, only Crafter is worse.
I'd say the best choices are Alert, Magic Initiative, Musician and Lucky, for sure. Alert and Magic Initiative can be good on all classes (even barbarian can benefit from Magic Initiative), Musician tends to be more for a support character, Lucky is good for anybody making saving throws or for rogue to get sneak attacks when they other wise wouldn't be able too.
Healer, Tavern Brawler and Tough are build dependent but can be good. Healer can work on Cleric, Druid, Ranger and Paladin, Tavern Brawler can work on Monk, Fighter, Barbarian and Paladin while Tough can work on any class but often is not as good as other origin feats, thus really for characters with questionable survivability.
Savage Attacker and Crafter I'd almost say are complete traps. Savage Attacker increases damage by a very minimum amount and Crafter saves a bit of coin early on while giving access to temporary items that mostly just cost a trivial amount of coin instead. Their biggest issue is that they are only really relevant in Tier 1 unlike literally every other origin feat, they both need to scale and neither does.
There are multiple ways to redesign Savage Attacker, I personally would make Savage Attacker increase the critical threat range of weapon attacks by +1 (so you critical hit on a 19 or a 20, instead of just a 20) and then add Proficiency Bonus as (force or weapon type) bonus damage to any critical hits made on a weapon attack. It's actually less damage early on but more damage later on, some builds get a lot damage and damage actually scales.
Crafter almost needs a complete redesign, stop gap is to just over a wider range of less common items for fast crafting as levels progress.
I agree it's on the weaker side of the origin options, but this isn't 100% correct.Like Athanar90 points out, consistency is important at low levels when most characters only get 1 attack and monster HP values are low, so 2-3 damage can actually be the difference between a monster living another round or not.As more attacks become available, the odds that you'll see a very low roll (and therefore stand to gain more from a reroll) goes up. If you're a 5th level martial character using Cleave with a Great Axe, rerolling the lowest of 3d12 raises the average damage by 3.5. During an Action Surge, rerolling the lowest of 5d12 raises the average damage by 4.24. This isn't a perfect comparison because it assumes you can see all of the dice before rerolling, but I don't think the real world use case would be much worse. The odds of seeing a roll of 3 or lower on 3d12 is 58%, so you'll see a blatantly obvious reroll opportunity more than half the time.If you're a greatsword fan, don't take this feat. Greatswords are more likely to hit for average damage, so you'll see fewer opportunities for rerolls, and you're less likely to get an above-average roll if you do.Anyways I don't believe this feat is aimed at stats-crunching min/maxers, imo it's more for players that have a strong negative reaction to seeing low dice rolls. I always got a lot of pushback for saying the 2014 Champion is borderline worthless because getting 1 extra crit every 20 d20 throws barely does anything, but a certain subset of players really loves their crits. If everyone that rolls dice were rational, casinos wouldn't be in business.EDIT: See R3sistance's post below.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
Unless I am wrong, the current form of savage attacker is no longer a retroactive decision to re-roll and then use the higher result, it is made at the time of a weapon hit. So you don't get to see a 3 and decide to reroll after. It's very unclear in the feat but the section regarding re-roll was removed from 2014 to 2024.
Overall, I suspect many DMs will rule to play it like the 2014 version since the 2024 is very unclear about exactly when you decide to roll the weapons damage twice, if you can decide to do so after the first roll or if it must be made at the time of confirming the hit itself. That and the 2014 version is just more viable than how I read the 2024 version, as unclear as it is. It is still a very weak feat but not quiet as weak as the latter iteration.
Also it wouldn't work with Cleave, since it works on a per weapon hit basis, Cleave is a separate hit and so you can only use savage attacker on the first hit or the second hit, not both.
Oof, you're right. I did not read it carefully enough. They removed the one thing it had going for it.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
There’s nothing saying when you must choose to roll the weapon dice twice. Therefore, at least in my interpretation, you can choose to roll twice after you’ve rolled once.
I guess many players/DMs will follow this path.
Yes there is. "Once per turn when you hit" means you must make the decision when you hit (i.e. before rolling damage).
I see what you mean.
However, my thoughts:
1) The “when you hit clause” is necessary to prevent players applying the SA on turns even when they don’t make a weapon attack.
2) The rules have to be functional even for a (e.g. new) player with only a single physical set of dice. Thus, rolling twice can mean rolling the same die two times in succession. The feat only specifies rolling twice: there is no stipulation about declaring your choice to roll twice before the first roll. Thus, the choice can come between roll 1 and roll 2 and you will still be rolling twice when you hit.
Hope that makes sense.