Mostly afk lately so I will have a lot of catching up to do.

For now, I just want to quickly correct the discussion of the Fireball spreading around corners.  

In 2014, the reason why that spell effect spread around corners is because the spell description said so.  The 2024 spell does not.  It's that simple.

This mechanic has to do with the interaction with the AoE rule for how the resulting effect fills the defined space, not the clear path rule for spell targeting.

The AoE rule states that the effect originates at the point of origin and then spreads outwards in straight lines to fill the area.  If there is an obstacle in the area, those straight lines are interrupted (resulting in portions of the area being excluded from the affected AoE space) unless the spell explicitly states that the effect spreads around corners.

While a Clear Path to the Target refers to caster, We determine wether a target can benefit from cover based on it's positioning in respect to the origin of the attack or effect. So for example;

When casting Fireball, a target can benefit from cover only when the effect originates on the opposite side of the cover.

When casting Fire Bolt, a target can benefit from cover only when the attack originates on the opposite side of the cover.

Cover: A target can benefit from cover only when an attack or other effect originates on the opposite side of the cover

So to try to circle this around, potent cantrip, weapon cantrips, in most circumstances, seems pretty cut and dry. Shoot a firebolt, misses, still does half fire damage.

Even if you did multiclass shenanigans and got an agonizing blast Eldritch blast in there, the wording of the feature seems to imply that any cantrip with an attack roll or saving throw to do damage should work.

To me, it sounds like some of the weird comes from multiple damage types happening at the same time, with the exception of True Strike 2024. Someone mentioned earlier that in the case of the miss, perhaps the only damage that's to be taken into account in a miss, would be the part of the damage affected by the cantrip. 

True Strike here can convert the weapon damage to radient if the caster chooses. So if we follow that logic, the reduction works the same way every other damage cantrip would.

Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade would supposedly be a bit different, as under the logic of accounting for only the magical part of the damage in a miss, the target of the attack would only be half of the sound/fire damage. Which, while i feel is a bit less fun, feels reasonable to me.

What seems ridiculous to me is the idea that the weapon cantrips wouldn't work with the feature at all because they have "self" in their range list. When you look at the cantrips in question, that clearly refers to the weapon on your person that is the material component to the spell. The target of that spell, whom you are targeting with an attack roll, is clearly a creature you intend on striking.

The only case i can think of where "self" might be a weird parameter is with cantrips like Sword Burst or Thunderclap, where it can potentially catch multiple "creatures that aren't targets but are conveniently in the wrong place at the wrong time", but those cantrips are not the focus here.

I imagine until we get a game designer to weigh in, it will be really difficult to pin down officially how to manage this interraction, so i dunno how much of an assist this thread is at the time of writing.

Quote from MobiTraveler >>

So to try to circle this around, potent cantrip, weapon cantrips, in most circumstances, seems pretty cut and dry. Shoot a firebolt, misses, still does half fire damage.

Even if you did multiclass shenanigans and got an agonizing blast Eldritch blast in there, the wording of the feature seems to imply that any cantrip with an attack roll or saving throw to do damage should work.

To me, it sounds like some of the weird comes from multiple damage types happening at the same time, with the exception of True Strike 2024. Someone mentioned earlier that in the case of the miss, perhaps the only damage that's to be taken into account in a miss, would be the part of the damage affected by the cantrip. 

 

True Strike here can convert the weapon damage to radient if the caster chooses. So if we follow that logic, the reduction works the same way every other damage cantrip would.

Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade would supposedly be a bit different, as under the logic of accounting for only the magical part of the damage in a miss, the target of the attack would only be half of the sound/fire damage. Which, while i feel is a bit less fun, feels reasonable to me.

What seems ridiculous to me is the idea that the weapon cantrips wouldn't work with the feature at all because they have "self" in their range list. When you look at the cantrips in question, that clearly refers to the weapon on your person that is the material component to the spell. The target of that spell, whom you are targeting with an attack roll, is clearly a creature you intend on striking.

 

The only case i can think of where "self" might be a weird parameter is with cantrips like Sword Burst or Thunderclap, where it can potentially catch multiple "creatures that aren't targets but are conveniently in the wrong place at the wrong time", but those cantrips are not the focus here.

 

I imagine until we get a game designer to weigh in, it will be really difficult to pin down officially how to manage this interraction, so i dunno how much of an assist this thread is at the time of writing.

It wouldn't be the first time something as silly as target self makes something not work with it. Quick example is an enchanters alter memories ability does not work on the 2014 friends cantrip because technically the target is self, despite that you are charming them. 2024 its now range 10 feet not self. So I guess it works with alter memories now.

That being said if I were the DM i'd allow it. Being overly specific about RAW if it makes the game less fun isn't worth it.

 2014 friends cantrip because technically the target is self, despite that you are charming them. 

The 2014 version doesn't charm them though. It just give you advantage on charisma checks against them, so it makes you appear friendly towards them it doesn't affect the person you are talking to at all.

Quote from MobiTraveler >>

To me, it sounds like some of the weird comes from multiple damage types happening at the same time, with the exception of True Strike 2024.

I think the damage type is a fairly small part of why this bothers people. If it were just that I'd point to Graze as precedent. The two Blade cantrips are contentious because the lead rules designer has confirmed multiple times the weapon attack isn't magical and conceptually it's more like part of the process of casting the spell, so the idea that Potent Cantrips can improve a totally mundane weapon attack is silly.

True Strike also feels a bit odd since Divination spells usually don't do damage, though there is precedent for it (Hunter's Mark and Mind Spike.) But if you start splitting hairs about spell schools you have to ask why it's a problem that an Evoker can power up a Divination cantrip but it's not a problem when it's Necromancy or Conjuration. Once you get past the spell school hangup, it's not hard to justify; True Strike says the attack is magically-guided, so what's the problem with giving it a Graze-like effect?

As someone that DMs from time to time, this barely seems worth quibbling about though. One choice leads to a player getting the exact same benefits they would've gotten with any other cantrip, and the alternative is I make that player unhappy for no good reason at all.

As someone that DMs from time to time, this barely seems worth quibbling about though. One choice leads to a player getting the exact same benefits they would've gotten with any other cantrip, and the alternative is I make that player unhappy for no good reason at all.

TBH My reluctance to say it works for the weapon attack damage as well, stems from the greater concern niggling at the back of my mind, that True Strike is already too powerful and is going to turn every spellcaster into a weapon-user (and this is just a further buff to it). Which feels like we are losing something though I'm having difficulty putting into words what it is we are losing.

True Strike is the only cantrip that can used to make both melee and ranged spell attack rolls, and at low-mid levels deals equal or more damage than any other cantrip, and it deals damage of one of the least resisted types. Every caster at least gets proficiency in Simple weapons meaning Quarterstaff (versatile for 1d8) and Shortbow (1d6, 80 ft range) are available and add your spellcasting modifier. Why would anyone use a different cantrip (except of course Warlock with AB+EB)? 

Quote from Agilemind >>

True Strike is the only cantrip that can used to make both melee and ranged spell attack rolls, and at low-mid levels deals equal or more damage than any other cantrip, and it deals damage of one of the least resisted types. Every caster at least gets proficiency in Simple weapons meaning Quarterstaff (versatile for 1d8) and Shortbow (1d6, 80 ft range) are available and add your spellcasting modifier. Why would anyone use a different cantrip (except of course Warlock with AB+EB)? 

Ehh. At levels 1-4, it's equal damage to the new shillelagh, and roughly equal to an unboosted fire bolt/EB. As soon as you hit level 5, True Strike on a short bow starts to fall behind ranged cantrip options. (Shillelagh falls off even more steeply though)

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

True Strike is the only cantrip that can used to make both melee and ranged spell attack rolls, and at low-mid levels deals equal or more damage than any other cantrip, and it deals damage of one of the least resisted types. Every caster at least gets proficiency in Simple weapons meaning Quarterstaff (versatile for 1d8) and Shortbow (1d6, 80 ft range) are available and add your spellcasting modifier. Why would anyone use a different cantrip (except of course Warlock with AB+EB)? 

 

Ehh. At levels 1-4, it's equal damage to the new shillelagh, and roughly equal to an unboosted fire bolt/EB. As soon as you hit level 5, True Strike on a short bow starts to fall behind ranged cantrip options. (Shillelagh falls off even more steeply though)

 Really? 2d6+4 (Truestrike) = 11 damage, 2d10 (firebolt) = 11 damage, but True Strike is more reliable and will increase to 12 damage if you up your spellcasting modifier at level 8. So my bolded text is correct. Note by "Low-Mid" levels I meant level 1-11 which is the bulk of most campaigns.

Unless one assume perfect conditions for e.g. Acid Splash hitting multiple creatures, or Toll the Dead against injured creature, or (did they up the damage of Poison Spray? against creatures not resistant/immune to poison). But I strongly dislike such arguments, players don't choose spells based on their optimal outcome in perfect conditions, they choose them based on typical average use - this is especially true for cantrips since these are what one defaults too when they don't have other options.

I'm coming at this from the other perspective; prior to 2024 True Strike there was no reason for a spellcaster to bother with weapons without committing to a full gish build.

True Strike has no useful side effects. Fire Bolt can ignite things. Ray of Frost, Frostbite and Vicious Mockery basically come with Slow and Sap. Shocking Grasp gives you a chance to "Disengage" from one enemy without giving up your damage for that turn, which is similar to Push. Thorn Whip can pull. Chill Touch prevents HP recovery. Mind Sliver weakens saving throws. Starry Wisp disables invisibility. Infestation forces movement in a random direction. Martial classes get Weapon Mastery now so simply making a weapon attack at the same attack roll and damage modifier is no longer particularly special.

Also, True Strike being able to make both melee and ranged attacks isn't a super big distinguishing factor. All the save-based cantrips can be used at point blank range without disadvantage. Sacred Flame also deals radiant damage, ignores cover, more or less ignores armor (it's a DEX save), and isn't inconvenienced by enemies being knocked prone. Toll the Dead is also every bit as good since Wisdom saves aren't subjected to cover either, and the "conditional" part is quite easy to meet.

Ray of Frost, Frostbite and Vicious Mockery basically come with Slow and Sap. Shocking Grasp gives you a chance to "Disengage" from one enemy without giving up your damage for that turn, which is similar to Push. Thorn Whip can pull. Chill Touch prevents HP recovery. Mind Sliver weakens saving throws. Starry Wisp disables invisibility. Infestation forces movement in a random direction.

Sure, but how many of those cantrips have you actually seen a player choose and use in-game? Or how many times have you chosen those cantrips on your characters and used them? Personally, I've seen Thorn Whip used relatively often (but then it's damage isn't much below other ranged druid cantrips), Shocking Grasp while many take it it's almost never used, Vicious Mockery only by Bards who have no other choice (and I saw several bards MC specifically to get better cantrips), Ray of Frost on... maybe 2 characters who for narrative / flavour reasons wouldn't use Firebolt. Infestation - never ever, and Sacred Flame - hardly ever since Toll the Dead was released. Chill Touch occasionally when it was 120 ft range (now it is "touch" I suspect it will be even less used than Shocking Grasp which is already in the "almost never" category). 

Quote from Agilemind >>

Ray of Frost, Frostbite and Vicious Mockery basically come with Slow and Sap. Shocking Grasp gives you a chance to "Disengage" from one enemy without giving up your damage for that turn, which is similar to Push. Thorn Whip can pull. Chill Touch prevents HP recovery. Mind Sliver weakens saving throws. Starry Wisp disables invisibility. Infestation forces movement in a random direction.

Sure, but how many of those cantrips have you actually seen a player choose and use in-game? Or how many times have you chosen those cantrips on your characters and used them? 

I've used all of them except Starry Wisp (which is brand new) and Infestation

Of course, I've also never used Booming Blade (although I'm about to on a new character, because I finally found a way to flavor it that I could live with)

Quote from Agilemind>>

Sure, but how many of those cantrips have you actually seen a player choose and use in-game? Or how many times have you chosen those cantrips on your characters and used them?

The wizard in the first game I DM'd relied entirely on Fire Bolt. The wizard in the second game I DM'd used Chill Touch and Ray of Frost. That game also had a Bard, and while that player had no choice but to use Vicious Mockery at the time, he did lean into it, coming up with actual insults for every enemy. My Arcana Domain Cleric from several years ago had Shocking Grasp to pseudo-disengage, Chill Touch for when I have advantage on attacks, and Sacred Flame for high AC targets (saved my rear big time against a Roper.) A stage magician-themed wizard I made to round out a 3 person party had Fire Bolt and Ray of Frost (because, well, stage pyrotechnics.) The druid in that same party relied almost entirely on Primal Savagery (she was 100% new to the game, she just liked the idea behind it.) My Order-turned-Trickery Cleric had Toll the Dead for thematic reasons (it tolls for the people he apprehends) and Word of Radiance for when he gets swarmed. My current (vaguely Metroid-inspired) character is also relying purely on Fire Bolt for thematic reasons. The cleric in that same game is using Sacred Flame, because, well, they're a goodie-two-shoes (affectionate) Light Cleric.

Granted, this is still an insignificant sample size in the grand scheme of things, but my experience has been that the kind of people that get excited about playing D&D care a lot about theming, and according to Jeremy Crawford what makes or breaks an Unearthed Arcana concept usually comes down to whether the theme behind a subclass resonates strongly with people. I dunno how else to explain having been in groups that had a Dragonborn character twice, when their racial traits were so mediocre in 2014.

I'll just add my hat into having used and seen all of those in almost every campaign. Not all of them in the same campaign but 1-2 of them per caster in every campaign as we usually don;t take more than 2 attack cantrips.

Since it just came up in another thread, another way to determine whether something is a 'damage-dealing cantrip' is whether it requires the Magic action to deal its damage, or the damage comes as a result of an Attack action, and the cantrip then augments/alters that damage in some way. (Which is essentially what tarodnet was arguing initially, just tied to the 2024 rules more concretely) 

I'm not sure I buy that, but it is an option if you need to make a ruling at the table