OK, that clarifies. My character has a background of criminal, which gives him proficiency in Thieves Tools and also Slight of Hand, so under Tool Proficiency, PHB says, "If you have proficiency with a tool [Thieves Tools] add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses that tool. If you have proficiency in a skill [Sleight of Hand/Dexterity] that's used with that check, you have Advantage on the check, too." So, generally I would roll two die and add my proficiency [Dexterity] bonus to the highest one die and compare to the DC of 15. Let me know if I'm understanding this correctly.
Ok, so no real official rules, but plenty of scope for house rules on it :)
Good news, mate! In the new 2024 DMG, there is a table called Lock Complexity that tells you how long it takes to try to pick a lock based on its complexity.
You need to have Thieves' Tools to attempt to pick the lock at all, if you don't have any, you (probably) can't try and improvise (unless you really beg the DM and they agree).
If you have Thieves' Tools, you make the pick using your Sleight of Hand skill.
If you have proficiency in one of Thieves' Tools or Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check normally, adding your proficiency bonus.
If you are proficient in both Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check with advantage, adding your proficiency bonus.
If you have Expertise in Sleight of Hand (you can no longer have Expertise in a tool), you add double your proficiency bonus (or rather, you use the already-doubled value beside Sleight of Hand).
Just to add to this, the Tools Proficiency section provides advantage when you are using the Tool Proficiency and also have the Skill Proficiency, but not the other way around. Normally this doesn't matter, but by RAW, if you have expertise in Sleight of Hand and proficiency in Thieves Tools, either you use your normal proficiency bonus with advantage (using the Tool Proficiency) or you double your proficiency bonus and don't have advantage (using Expertise in Sleight of Hand). It's weird and I don't like it.
You need to have Thieves' Tools to attempt to pick the lock at all, if you don't have any, you (probably) can't try and improvise (unless you really beg the DM and they agree).
If you have Thieves' Tools, you make the pick using your Sleight of Hand skill.
If you have proficiency in one of Thieves' Tools or Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check normally, adding your proficiency bonus.
If you are proficient in both Thieves' Tools and Sleight of Hand, you make the Sleight of Hand check with advantage, adding your proficiency bonus.
If you have Expertise in Sleight of Hand (you can no longer have Expertise in a tool), you add double your proficiency bonus (or rather, you use the already-doubled value beside Sleight of Hand).
Just to add to this, the Tools Proficiency section provides advantage when you are using the Tool Proficiency and also have the Skill Proficiency, but not the other way around. Normally this doesn't matter, but by RAW, if you have expertise in Sleight of Hand and proficiency in Thieves Tools, either you use your normal proficiency bonus with advantage (using the Tool Proficiency) or you double your proficiency bonus and don't have advantage (using Expertise in Sleight of Hand). It's weird and I don't like it.
Is that true? You're making a Sleight of Hand check really, but using the Tool. From the Glossary (emphasis mine):
Expertise
Expertise is a feature that enhances your use of a skill proficiency. When you make an ability check with a skill proficiency in which you have Expertise, your Proficiency Bonus is doubled for that check unless the bonus is doubled by another feature.
Just to add to this, the Tools Proficiency section provides advantage when you are using the Tool Proficiency and also have the Skill Proficiency, but not the other way around. Normally this doesn't matter, but by RAW, if you have expertise in Sleight of Hand and proficiency in Thieves Tools, either you use your normal proficiency bonus with advantage (using the Tool Proficiency) or you double your proficiency bonus and don't have advantage (using Expertise in Sleight of Hand). It's weird and I don't like it.
Yeah, this is incorrect. You don't choose to "use" one or the other. The benefits of proficiency in a skill and proficiency in a tool both apply to the check at the same time:
From Playing the Game --> Proficiency --> Equipment Proficiencies:
you can benefit from both skill proficiency and tool proficiency on the same ability check.
The way that tool proficiencies work has changed slightly in 2024. The notation "Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) check" is never used in 2024. Instead, you make a "Dexterity check with Thieves' Tools" or a "Dexterity check using Thieves' Tools", or similar wording. The parentheses notation is now only used for skills that apply to the ability check:
From Playing the Game --> Proficiency --> Skill Proficiencies:
Most ability checks involve using a skill, which represents a category of things creatures try to do with an ability check. The descriptions of the actions you take (see "Actions" later in this chapter) specify which skill applies if you make an ability check for that action, and many other rules note when a skill is relevant. The DM has the ultimate say on whether a skill is relevant in a situation.
. . .
For example, if a character tries to climb a cliff, the DM might ask for a Strength (Athletics) check.
So, in this case we use the Thieves' Tools to take the Utilize action which requires a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check against a set DC (DC 15 seems to be the default for a standard Lock item) to determine the success or failure of that action.
Proficiency in the Sleight of Hand skill is applied to the ability that is used to attempt the activity. This proficiency can be potentially further enhanced/improved via expertise. The activity is performed by using the tool:
From Playing the Game --> Proficiency --> Equipment Proficiencies:
Tools. If you have proficiency with a tool, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool.
So, in 2024, the concepts of skill proficiency and tool proficiency have been separated from each other. One applies directly to certain aspects of your own innate abilities (strength, dexterity, etc) and the other represents learned and practiced knowledge and skill with the use of specific equipment. Because of this, both of these proficiencies can now always be applied to the same ability check.
Tools. If you have proficiency with a tool, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have Proficiency in the skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both skill proficiency and tool proficiency on the same ability check.
If you have proficiency in a tool you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the skill, you roll with advantage.
Nowhere does it say "if you are proficient in a skill, you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the tool, you roll with advantage."
Tools. If you have proficiency with a tool, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have Proficiency in the skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both skill proficiency and tool proficiency on the same ability check.
If you have proficiency in a tool you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the skill, you roll with advantage.
Nowhere does it say "if you are proficient in a skill, you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the tool, you roll with advantage."
Why is being proficient with a tool and a skill different from being proficient with a skill and a tool?
Tools. If you have proficiency with a tool, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have Proficiency in the skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both skill proficiency and tool proficiency on the same ability check.
If you have proficiency in a tool you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the skill, you roll with advantage.
Nowhere does it say "if you are proficient in a skill, you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the tool, you roll with advantage."
Why is being proficient with a tool and a skill different from being proficient with a skill and a tool?
Because that is how it is written. I doubt it is intended, but RAW, it is a condition making a roll with your Tool Proficiency, not your Skill Proficiency and therefore, not your Skill Expertise.
If you find yourself in a game where this is the ruling, keep in mind that Expertise is better than advantage if your proficiency bonus is greater than 3 (and especially if you have access to advantage through another means (such as through Enhance Ability).
Tools. If you have proficiency with a tool, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have Proficiency in the skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both skill proficiency and tool proficiency on the same ability check.
If you have proficiency in a tool you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the skill, you roll with advantage.
Nowhere does it say "if you are proficient in a skill, you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the tool, you roll with advantage."
Why is being proficient with a tool and a skill different from being proficient with a skill and a tool?
Because that is how it is written. I doubt it is intended, but RAW, it is a condition making a roll with your Tool Proficiency, not your Skill Proficiency and therefore, not your Skill Expertise.
If you find yourself in a game where this is the ruling, keep in mind that Expertise is better than advantage if your proficiency bonus is greater than 3 (and especially if you have access to advantage through another means (such as through Enhance Ability).
No. You have to read all of the rules together and apply them all. You don't choose only one rule to apply:
Your Proficiency Bonus can’t be added to a die roll or another number more than once . . . Occasionally, a Proficiency Bonus might be multiplied or divided (doubled or halved, for example) before being added. For example, the Expertise feature (see the rules glossary) doubles the Proficiency Bonus for certain ability checks.
We see above that the Proficiency Bonus is doubled for the ability check. Not for the tool usage and not for the skill. For the ability check. Whatever Proficiency Bonus would be applied to the ability check -- double it.
Next:
If a creature is proficient in a skill, the creature applies its Proficiency Bonus to ability checks involving that skill.
This rule applies regardless of any tool usage or tool proficiency. If a creature is proficient in a skill, the creature applies its Proficiency Bonus to ability checks involving that skill. If we are talking about a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check using Thieves' Tools, the creature applies its Proficiency Bonus to this ability check -- and this Bonus is doubled by Expertise (see above). This just happens. The rule is applied.
Lastly, we also have this rule:
Tools. If you have proficiency with a tool, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have Proficiency in the skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both skill proficiency and tool proficiency on the same ability check.
So, we can now resolve this rule one sentence at a time.
First, we have proficiency with the tool, and we are making an abiliity check that uses the tool. So, we can (optional) add our Proficiency Bonus to this ability check. But we have already applied our Proficiency Bonus (doubled) to this check by applying the above two rules. In addition, there is the initial rule that we cannot add the Bonus more than once. So, we'll stick with the Bonus (doubled) which has already been applied.
Second, do we have proficiency with the tool and also proficiency in the skill that's also used with this check? Yes, we do. Therefore, we "have Advantage on the check too".
As a result, we can make this check with the Bonus from Expertise and with advantage.
It's helpful to remember that we are never applying a "tool proficiency" or a "skill proficiency" to the check when applying any of these rules. We apply the Proficiency Bonus, which is its own standalone thing independent of any of these concepts. If certain defined prerequisites are met, we apply the Bonus. If we have proficiency in a certain skill, add the Bonus. If we have proficiency in the usage of a certain tool, we have the option to add the Bonus, but we cannot add the Bonus more than once. If we have both of these proficiencies, we have advantage.
Tools. If you have proficiency with a tool, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have Proficiency in the skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both skill proficiency and tool proficiency on the same ability check.
If you have proficiency in a tool you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the skill, you roll with advantage.
Nowhere does it say "if you are proficient in a skill, you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the tool, you roll with advantage."
Why is being proficient with a tool and a skill different from being proficient with a skill and a tool?
Because that is how it is written. I doubt it is intended, but RAW, it is a condition making a roll with your Tool Proficiency, not your Skill Proficiency and therefore, not your Skill Expertise.
If you find yourself in a game where this is the ruling, keep in mind that Expertise is better than advantage if your proficiency bonus is greater than 3 (and especially if you have access to advantage through another means (such as through Enhance Ability).
You don't "make a roll with a tool proficiency". There's no such thing in the rules. The only d20 Tests are ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws
If you have an applicable skill or tool proficiency, but not both, you can add your proficiency bonus to an ability check. If you do have both, you can add your PB and roll with advantage
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You don't "make a roll with a tool proficiency". There's no such thing in the rules. The only d20 Tests are ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws
If you have an applicable skill or tool proficiency, but not both, you can add your proficiency bonus to an ability check. If you do have both, you can add your PB and roll with advantage
Yes, using a Tool Proficiency is an Ability Check. Using a Skill Proficiency is also an Ability Check.
If you have proficiency with the tool, you add your proficiency to the roll. If you are also proficient with the skill, you roll with advantage.
It's not "If you are proficient with both the skill and the tool, you make the roll with advantage." It is a condition on using the proficiency from the Tool proficiency.
When you use your Skill Proficiency, if you have Expertise, you double the proficiency bonus and there is no allowance to roll with advantage if you have Proficiency in the tool that’s also used with that check.
Tools. If you have proficiency with a tool, you can add your Proficiency Bonus to any ability check you make that uses the tool. If you have Proficiency in the skill that’s also used with that check, you have Advantage on the check too. This means you can benefit from both skill proficiency and tool proficiency on the same ability check.
If you have proficiency in a tool you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the skill, you roll with advantage.
Nowhere does it say "if you are proficient in a skill, you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the tool, you roll with advantage."
Why is being proficient with a tool and a skill different from being proficient with a skill and a tool?
Because that is how it is written. I doubt it is intended, but RAW, it is a condition making a roll with your Tool Proficiency, not your Skill Proficiency and therefore, not your Skill Expertise.
If you find yourself in a game where this is the ruling, keep in mind that Expertise is better than advantage if your proficiency bonus is greater than 3 (and especially if you have access to advantage through another means (such as through Enhance Ability).
Thanks.
I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think the wording is unambiguous enough to exclude other interpretations.
If we take the picking a lock example, you must succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check using Thieves’ Tools. So, taking that sequentially, assuming proficiency with both:
- it’s a Dexterity ability check;
- you have SoH proficiency, so add your PB
(- if you have expertise, double your PB)
- you have TT proficiency, so you can add your PB (but the general rule regarding PB stops you adding it twice);
- you also have the relevant skill proficiency, so you can roll with Advantage.
I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think the wording is unambiguous enough to exclude other interpretations.
If we take the picking a lock example, you must succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check using Thieves’ Tools. So, taking that sequentially, assuming proficiency with both:
- it’s a Dexterity ability check;
- you have SoH proficiency, so add your PB
(- if you have expertise, double your PB)
- you have TT proficiency, so you can add your PB (but the general rule regarding PB stops you adding it twice);
- you also have the relevant skill proficiency, so you can roll with Advantage.
It depends on how loosely you want to read the rules. It's part of the Tool Proficiency. I would never play it so strictly at my tables (but I also use several house rules), but I always want to start with a strict reading before I make changes and before I make any as well as to prepare for what I may encounter at other tables.
I really don't like the Sleight of Hand and Thieves' Tools scenario (or any skill + tool) and the incomplete skill description (either Sleight of Hand cannot pick locks or it needs to be in the skill description). It feels like they couldn't commit to removing tool proficiencies or to breaking them out into their own solidified role.
It's not "If you are proficient with both the skill and the tool, you make the roll with advantage." It is a condition on using the proficiency from the Tool proficiency.
That's exactly what it is. You're creating an order of operations where none exists. You don't see if you have an applicable tool proficiency "first". You either have one, or you don't
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It's not "If you are proficient with both the skill and the tool, you make the roll with advantage." It is a condition on using the proficiency from the Tool proficiency.
That's exactly what it is. You're creating an order of operations where none exists. You don't see if you have an applicable tool proficiency "first". You either have one, or you don't
Being "also proficient with the skill" is a condition added to being proficient with the Tool. The order of operations is there, but you are ignoring it. If you feel that is RAI, cool beans. If you think that is not RAW or RAI, but a better way to do it, also cool beans. If you are not the DM, talk up front before you count on this because I don't think it is written they way you are reading it.
It's not "If you are proficient with both the skill and the tool, you make the roll with advantage." It is a condition on using the proficiency from the Tool proficiency.
That's exactly what it is. You're creating an order of operations where none exists. You don't see if you have an applicable tool proficiency "first". You either have one, or you don't
Being "also proficient with the skill" is a condition added to being proficient with the Tool. The order of operations is there, but you are ignoring it. If you feel that is RAI, cool beans. If you think that is not RAW or RAI, but a better way to do it, also cool beans. If you are not the DM, talk up front before you count on this because I don't think it is written they way you are reading it.
If you don't have both proficiencies, it doesn't matter, the rule won't come up
Explain to me the kind of check you think could be made that would use both skill and tool proficiencies, but not allow you to get advantage. Because all I see is a DM saying, "Make a DEX check to pick the lock", and the player saying, "Well, I have proficiency in Sleight of Hand but also Thieves Tools"
Not "Make a Thieves Tools check" from the DM and then "Oh, but I also have proficiency in Sleight of Hand" from the player
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think the wording is unambiguous enough to exclude other interpretations.
If we take the picking a lock example, you must succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check using Thieves’ Tools. So, taking that sequentially, assuming proficiency with both:
- it’s a Dexterity ability check;
- you have SoH proficiency, so add your PB
(- if you have expertise, double your PB)
- you have TT proficiency, so you can add your PB (but the general rule regarding PB stops you adding it twice);
- you also have the relevant skill proficiency, so you can roll with Advantage.
It depends on how loosely you want to read the rules. It's part of the Tool Proficiency. I would never play it so strictly at my tables (but I also use several house rules), but I always want to start with a strict reading before I make changes and before I make any as well as to prepare for what I may encounter at other tables.
I really don't like the Sleight of Hand and Thieves' Tools scenario (or any skill + tool) and the incomplete skill description (either Sleight of Hand cannot pick locks or it needs to be in the skill description). It feels like they couldn't commit to removing tool proficiencies or to breaking them out into their own solidified role.
If a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check is explicitly required by the rules for a Lock, there’s no need for it to also be in the description for Sleight of Hand. (It would probably have been tidier if it were, but it’s not necessary..)
You seem to be adding an assumption that you must choose whether you are deriving the PB from the skill or the tool proficiency. What the rules do is ask whether you have a feature which lets you add your PB. If you have more than one such feature, you only add your PB once. However, both features are still true: the rule that you can only add your PB once does not require you to choose the source and does not nullify “surplus” proficiencies. It’s the same with Advantage: you can have multiple sources active, but they do not have any cumulative effect.
So, if using Thieves Tools (Sleight of hand) how would that work? Would proficiency with theives tools give you an additional proficiency bonus on the roll to add on to any proficiency you have with Sleight of Hand? Or is it just a straight Slight of Hand roll, and need to be proficient with thieves tool's to attempt it?
Bit confused really.
It gives you advantage, not an additional bonus. Which is probably better than a bonus most of the time.
So, if using Thieves Tools (Sleight of hand) how would that work? Would proficiency with theives tools give you an additional proficiency bonus on the roll to add on to any proficiency you have with Sleight of Hand? Or is it just a straight Slight of Hand roll, and need to be proficient with thieves tool's to attempt it?
Bit confused really.
It gives you advantage, not an additional bonus. Which is probably better than a bonus most of the time.
Advantage averages out to between a +3 and +4 to your roll so as soon as your proficiency bonus is +4, on average Expertise is better than Advantage.
So, if using Thieves Tools (Sleight of hand) how would that work? Would proficiency with theives tools give you an additional proficiency bonus on the roll to add on to any proficiency you have with Sleight of Hand? Or is it just a straight Slight of Hand roll, and need to be proficient with thieves tool's to attempt it?
Bit confused really.
It gives you advantage, not an additional bonus. Which is probably better than a bonus most of the time.
Advantage averages out to between a +3 and +4 to your roll so as soon as your proficiency bonus is +4, on average Expertise is better than Advantage.
It is also worth pointing out that advantage increases the average roll, but it doesn't increase the maximum roll. This means that (for ability checks and saving throws) it cannot make an otherwise impossible thing possible, which adding a flat bonus to the die roll can.
Attack rolls are different, because the automatic hit on a natural 20 means that success on an attack roll is never impossible, and advantage does make it more likely to roll a natural 20.
Yes, that's right.
Good news, mate! In the new 2024 DMG, there is a table called Lock Complexity that tells you how long it takes to try to pick a lock based on its complexity.
Just to add to this, the Tools Proficiency section provides advantage when you are using the Tool Proficiency and also have the Skill Proficiency, but not the other way around. Normally this doesn't matter, but by RAW, if you have expertise in Sleight of Hand and proficiency in Thieves Tools, either you use your normal proficiency bonus with advantage (using the Tool Proficiency) or you double your proficiency bonus and don't have advantage (using Expertise in Sleight of Hand). It's weird and I don't like it.
You can look at the Free Rules on Traps.
The different example traps specify the skills needed to detect and disarm them. Five of the examples can be bypassed with an Iron Spike.
Is that true? You're making a Sleight of Hand check really, but using the Tool. From the Glossary (emphasis mine):
Yeah, this is incorrect. You don't choose to "use" one or the other. The benefits of proficiency in a skill and proficiency in a tool both apply to the check at the same time:
From Playing the Game --> Proficiency --> Equipment Proficiencies:
The way that tool proficiencies work has changed slightly in 2024. The notation "Dexterity (Thieves' Tools) check" is never used in 2024. Instead, you make a "Dexterity check with Thieves' Tools" or a "Dexterity check using Thieves' Tools", or similar wording. The parentheses notation is now only used for skills that apply to the ability check:
From Playing the Game --> Proficiency --> Skill Proficiencies:
So, in this case we use the Thieves' Tools to take the Utilize action which requires a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check against a set DC (DC 15 seems to be the default for a standard Lock item) to determine the success or failure of that action.
Proficiency in the Sleight of Hand skill is applied to the ability that is used to attempt the activity. This proficiency can be potentially further enhanced/improved via expertise. The activity is performed by using the tool:
From Playing the Game --> Proficiency --> Equipment Proficiencies:
So, in 2024, the concepts of skill proficiency and tool proficiency have been separated from each other. One applies directly to certain aspects of your own innate abilities (strength, dexterity, etc) and the other represents learned and practiced knowledge and skill with the use of specific equipment. Because of this, both of these proficiencies can now always be applied to the same ability check.
The full quote is
If you have proficiency in a tool you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the skill, you roll with advantage.
Nowhere does it say "if you are proficient in a skill, you add your proficiency bonus. If you are also proficient with the tool, you roll with advantage."
Why is being proficient with a tool and a skill different from being proficient with a skill and a tool?
Because that is how it is written. I doubt it is intended, but RAW, it is a condition making a roll with your Tool Proficiency, not your Skill Proficiency and therefore, not your Skill Expertise.
If you find yourself in a game where this is the ruling, keep in mind that Expertise is better than advantage if your proficiency bonus is greater than 3 (and especially if you have access to advantage through another means (such as through Enhance Ability).
No. You have to read all of the rules together and apply them all. You don't choose only one rule to apply:
We see above that the Proficiency Bonus is doubled for the ability check. Not for the tool usage and not for the skill. For the ability check. Whatever Proficiency Bonus would be applied to the ability check -- double it.
Next:
This rule applies regardless of any tool usage or tool proficiency. If a creature is proficient in a skill, the creature applies its Proficiency Bonus to ability checks involving that skill. If we are talking about a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check using Thieves' Tools, the creature applies its Proficiency Bonus to this ability check -- and this Bonus is doubled by Expertise (see above). This just happens. The rule is applied.
Lastly, we also have this rule:
So, we can now resolve this rule one sentence at a time.
First, we have proficiency with the tool, and we are making an abiliity check that uses the tool. So, we can (optional) add our Proficiency Bonus to this ability check. But we have already applied our Proficiency Bonus (doubled) to this check by applying the above two rules. In addition, there is the initial rule that we cannot add the Bonus more than once. So, we'll stick with the Bonus (doubled) which has already been applied.
Second, do we have proficiency with the tool and also proficiency in the skill that's also used with this check? Yes, we do. Therefore, we "have Advantage on the check too".
As a result, we can make this check with the Bonus from Expertise and with advantage.
It's helpful to remember that we are never applying a "tool proficiency" or a "skill proficiency" to the check when applying any of these rules. We apply the Proficiency Bonus, which is its own standalone thing independent of any of these concepts. If certain defined prerequisites are met, we apply the Bonus. If we have proficiency in a certain skill, add the Bonus. If we have proficiency in the usage of a certain tool, we have the option to add the Bonus, but we cannot add the Bonus more than once. If we have both of these proficiencies, we have advantage.
You don't "make a roll with a tool proficiency". There's no such thing in the rules. The only d20 Tests are ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws
If you have an applicable skill or tool proficiency, but not both, you can add your proficiency bonus to an ability check. If you do have both, you can add your PB and roll with advantage
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes, using a Tool Proficiency is an Ability Check. Using a Skill Proficiency is also an Ability Check.
If you have proficiency with the tool, you add your proficiency to the roll. If you are also proficient with the skill, you roll with advantage.
It's not "If you are proficient with both the skill and the tool, you make the roll with advantage." It is a condition on using the proficiency from the Tool proficiency.
When you use your Skill Proficiency, if you have Expertise, you double the proficiency bonus and there is no allowance to roll with advantage if you have Proficiency in the tool that’s also used with that check.
Thanks.
I see where you’re coming from, but I don’t think the wording is unambiguous enough to exclude other interpretations.
If we take the picking a lock example, you must succeed on a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check using Thieves’ Tools. So, taking that sequentially, assuming proficiency with both:
- it’s a Dexterity ability check;
- you have SoH proficiency, so add your PB
(- if you have expertise, double your PB)
- you have TT proficiency, so you can add your PB (but the general rule regarding PB stops you adding it twice);
- you also have the relevant skill proficiency, so you can roll with Advantage.
It depends on how loosely you want to read the rules. It's part of the Tool Proficiency. I would never play it so strictly at my tables (but I also use several house rules), but I always want to start with a strict reading before I make changes and before I make any as well as to prepare for what I may encounter at other tables.
I really don't like the Sleight of Hand and Thieves' Tools scenario (or any skill + tool) and the incomplete skill description (either Sleight of Hand cannot pick locks or it needs to be in the skill description). It feels like they couldn't commit to removing tool proficiencies or to breaking them out into their own solidified role.
That's exactly what it is. You're creating an order of operations where none exists. You don't see if you have an applicable tool proficiency "first". You either have one, or you don't
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Being "also proficient with the skill" is a condition added to being proficient with the Tool. The order of operations is there, but you are ignoring it. If you feel that is RAI, cool beans. If you think that is not RAW or RAI, but a better way to do it, also cool beans. If you are not the DM, talk up front before you count on this because I don't think it is written they way you are reading it.
If you don't have both proficiencies, it doesn't matter, the rule won't come up
Explain to me the kind of check you think could be made that would use both skill and tool proficiencies, but not allow you to get advantage. Because all I see is a DM saying, "Make a DEX check to pick the lock", and the player saying, "Well, I have proficiency in Sleight of Hand but also Thieves Tools"
Not "Make a Thieves Tools check" from the DM and then "Oh, but I also have proficiency in Sleight of Hand" from the player
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If a Dexterity (Sleight of Hand) check is explicitly required by the rules for a Lock, there’s no need for it to also be in the description for Sleight of Hand. (It would probably have been tidier if it were, but it’s not necessary..)
You seem to be adding an assumption that you must choose whether you are deriving the PB from the skill or the tool proficiency. What the rules do is ask whether you have a feature which lets you add your PB. If you have more than one such feature, you only add your PB once. However, both features are still true: the rule that you can only add your PB once does not require you to choose the source and does not nullify “surplus” proficiencies. It’s the same with Advantage: you can have multiple sources active, but they do not have any cumulative effect.
It gives you advantage, not an additional bonus. Which is probably better than a bonus most of the time.
Advantage averages out to between a +3 and +4 to your roll so as soon as your proficiency bonus is +4, on average Expertise is better than Advantage.
It is also worth pointing out that advantage increases the average roll, but it doesn't increase the maximum roll. This means that (for ability checks and saving throws) it cannot make an otherwise impossible thing possible, which adding a flat bonus to the die roll can.
Attack rolls are different, because the automatic hit on a natural 20 means that success on an attack roll is never impossible, and advantage does make it more likely to roll a natural 20.