HI all, I'm new to 5e, but have played 2e long long ago. I'm just getting back into it and I'm trying to create a quick reference chart for myself to help understand the interactions between the various rules surrounding using two weapons in the 2024 rules (using a truth table). It is highly likely that this post has misinterpreted something and I would like to know how and where so it can be fixed.
Notes for the tables:
W1 Weapon 1.
W2 Weapon 2 (presumed to be "light", however W2* indicates the weapon is no longer presumed to be "light" but has other limitations).
A Ability Modifier
Note: The equations in the tables are the damage equations. (i.e. "W1+A" means is the damage Weapon 1 would do plus the Ability Modifier)
Case 1: Character has One attack in current action (as opposed to 2 or 3 or 4)
Light
(Weapon Property)
Weapon 1
Nick
(Weapon Mastery)
Weapon 1 + Wielder
Two Weapon
(Fighting Style)
Dual Wielder
(General Feat)
Attacks/Damage
Bonus Action Attack/Damage
Rules and Comments
No
--
--
--
W1+A
--
See 1
Yes
No
No
No
W1+A
W2
See 2
Yes
No
No
Yes
W1+A
W2*
See 2, 3
Yes
No
Yes
No
W1+A
W2+A
See 2, 4
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
W1+A
W2*+A
See 2, 3, 4
Yes
Yes
No
No
W1+A, W2
--
See 2, 5
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
W1+A, W2*
--
See 2, 3, 5
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
W1+A, W2+A
--
See 2, 4, 5
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
W1+A, W2*+A
--
See 2, 3, 4, 5
Case 2: Character has more than one attack in current action
Light
(Weapon Property)
Weapon 1
Nick
(Weapon Mastery)
Weapon 1 + Wielder
Two Weapon
(Fighting Style)
Dual Wielder
(General Feat)
Attack 1 /Damage
Attack 2
or 3 or 4 /Damage
Bonus Action Attack/Damage
Rules and Comments
No
--
--
--
W1+A
W1+A
--
See 1
Yes
No
No
No
W1+A
W1+A
W2
See 2
Yes
No
No
Yes
W1+A
W1+A
W2*
See 2, 3
Yes
No
Yes
No
W1+A
W1+A
W2+A
See 2, 4
Yes
No
Yes
Yes
W1+A
W1+A
W2*+A
See 2, 3, 4
Yes
Yes
No
No
W1+A, W2
W1+A
W2
See 2, 5
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
W1+A, W2*
W1+A
W2*
See 2, 3, 5
Yes
Yes
Yes
No
W1+A, W2+A
W1+A
W2+A
See 2, 4, 5
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
W1+A, W2*+A
W1+A
W2*+A
See 2, 3, 4, 5
Comments:
1) Actions “Attack with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike”
Damage Rolls: “When attacking with a weapon, you add your ability modifier . . . to the damage roll.”
Nothing interesting, just here for reference. These are the rules that are being modified by the fighting style, weapon mastery, and general feat.
2) Light Property “When you take the attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make an extra attack as a Bonus action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.”
The "Light" property unlocks being able to use a second weapon and no matter how many times you can attack in an action, Weapon 2 gets one (and only one) attack as your entire bonus action.
3) Dual Wielder: “when you take your attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can makeone extra attack as a bonus action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the two-handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.”
This feat is the same as item 2, except that the restriction about the second weapon having the "light" property is relaxed. Dual wielder doesn't give you more weapon attacks than using the "light" property alone, it just lets you swing a bigger weapon as the second weapon.
4) Two Weapon Fighting: “When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack”.
Yay more damage from Weapon 2.
5) Nick Weapon Property: When you make the extra attack of the light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
The effect appears to be that one (and only one) attack with Weapon 2 is now part of the attack action and not part of the bonus action, which means you can still attack one more time with Weapon 2 as your bonus action (I'm not as confident about this last statement as I would like to be).
The upshot being that if you assume a level 20 fighter (4 attacks) tricked out with all of the feats, masteries, and properties: Weapon 1 gets 4 attacks and Weapon 2 gets 1 attack in an attack action and 1 attack as the bonus action (six total).
Anyway, I'm hoping some helpful players can tell me if and where am I wrong (and why). A post like this definitely has errors. And now that I've spent 4 hours constructing this post, I think I understand what was envisioned by the game designers a bit better.
Can't comment on this in detail right now, except to say that you do not get both a Nick attack and a Light bonus action attack. Nick constrains the Light property in its entirety.
For that extra attack, you need DW as well as nick
For your Case 1, the current prevailing interpretation is that when you have Light + Nick + Dual Wielder you end up with a 3rd attack which is the Bonus Action attack from the Dual Wielder Feat. Similarly, when you have Light + Nick + Two Weapon Fighting Style + Dual Wielder you also end up with a 3rd attack which is the Bonus Action attack from the Dual Wielder Feat.
For your Case 2, when you have Light + Nick (but not Dual Wielder) you should only have 3 attacks which does not include any Bonus Action attack. Likewise, when you have Light + Nick + Two Weapon Fighting Style (but not Dual Wielder) you should also only have 3 attacks which does not include any Bonus Action attack.
With regards to the statement that you were not confident about: "which means you can still attack one more time with Weapon 2 as your bonus action" -- in fact, this statement is incorrect. The Nick property alone does not allow you to make an extra attack as part of the attack action and then also again as a Bonus Action. That was the cause for a couple of the above errors in the chart.
For your Case 1, the current prevailing interpretation is that when you have Light + Nick + Dual Wielder you end up with a 3rd attack which is the Bonus Action attack from the Dual Wielder Feat. Similarly, when you have Light + Nick + Two Weapon Fighting Style + Dual Wielder you also end up with a 3rd attack which is the Bonus Action attack from the Dual Wielder Feat.
That makes sense. If I understand the rationale, it would be:
1) Nick moves the second attack that was in bonus action into the attack action.
2) The now empty Bonus Action can be filled with the Bonus Action attack granted by Dual Wielder.
For your Case 2, when you have Light + Nick (but not Dual Wielder) you should only have 3 attacks which does not include any Bonus Action attack. Likewise, when you have Light + Nick + Two Weapon Fighting Style (but not Dual Wielder) you should also only have 3 attacks which does not include any Bonus Action attack.
That makes sense also. Reason being that Nick moves the bonus action attack into the 1st attack and without dual wielder there is nothing granting a bonus action attack.
With regards to the statement that you were not confident about: "which means you can still attack one more time with Weapon 2 as your bonus action" -- in fact, this statement is incorrect. The Nick property alone does not allow you to make an extra attack as part of the attack action and then also again as a Bonus Action. That was the cause for a couple of the above errors in the chart.
Everything else looks pretty good.
Probably terrible wording on my part, but that makes sense, Nick doesn't in of itself grant an attack, it just moves a pre-existing attack from the bonus action into the attack action. This opens a place for Dual Wielder to put the attack from the bonus action attack granted when you perform the second attack with the light weapon in the attack action.
This makes a bunch more sense when you look at it from a bonus action management perspective. The amount of attacks with weapon 1 is set by your number of attacks. The number of attacks with weapon 2 are determined managing the bonus action clauses.
Thanks.
Is the math right then? Assuming a level 20 fighter (4 attacks) with nick and dual wielder: The fighter gets a total of six attacks, four with the light weapon as part of the attack action, one with the second weapon as part of the attack action because of Nick, and one with the second weapon as the bonus action.
You use your first attack and the Light property is triggered, giving you an extra attack as a bonus action
You use your second weapon with Nick to consume the extra attack but without consuming the bonus action
You use your level 5 Extra Attack feature to attack with the Light weapon again
You want to now use your Bonus action because you think your 3rd attack triggered Light again. At that point your DM will point to Nick and say that Nick clarifies that your Light property has been modified to only once per turn. Alternatively: You have the Dual Wielder Feat and explain to your DM that the Dual Wielder Feat gives you another source of a bonus action attack that is separate from Light and Nick. Yay, thanks to the feat you get a 4th attack!
This is all correct, but it should be made clear that you don't need the extra attack in step 3 to use the Dual Wielder bonus action attack.
Once you make the attack in step 1, you have two available bonus action attacks: one from Light, and one from DW. You could normally only take advantage of one, but Nick lets you use the Light additional attack without consuming the bonus action, so it's available for the DW attack.
(And you still shouldn't need to be a pedantic rules nerd to figure out how two-weapon fighting works. This is not my number 1 gripe about the 2024 combat rules, but it's probably my #1 new gripe.)
HI all, I'm new to 5e, but have played 2e long long ago. I'm just getting back into it and I'm trying to create a quick reference chart for myself to help understand the interactions between the various rules surrounding using two weapons in the 2024 rules (using a truth table). It is highly likely that this post has misinterpreted something and I would like to know how and where so it can be fixed.
Notes for the tables:
3) Dual Wielder: “when you take your attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a bonus action later on the same turn with a different weapon, which must be a Melee weapon that lacks the two-handed property. You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.”
4) Two Weapon Fighting: “When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack”.
5) Nick Weapon Property: When you make the extra attack of the light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
Can't comment on this in detail right now, except to say that you do not get both a Nick attack and a Light bonus action attack. Nick constrains the Light property in its entirety.
For that extra attack, you need DW as well as nick
For your Case 1, the current prevailing interpretation is that when you have Light + Nick + Dual Wielder you end up with a 3rd attack which is the Bonus Action attack from the Dual Wielder Feat. Similarly, when you have Light + Nick + Two Weapon Fighting Style + Dual Wielder you also end up with a 3rd attack which is the Bonus Action attack from the Dual Wielder Feat.
For your Case 2, when you have Light + Nick (but not Dual Wielder) you should only have 3 attacks which does not include any Bonus Action attack. Likewise, when you have Light + Nick + Two Weapon Fighting Style (but not Dual Wielder) you should also only have 3 attacks which does not include any Bonus Action attack.
With regards to the statement that you were not confident about: "which means you can still attack one more time with Weapon 2 as your bonus action" -- in fact, this statement is incorrect. The Nick property alone does not allow you to make an extra attack as part of the attack action and then also again as a Bonus Action. That was the cause for a couple of the above errors in the chart.
Everything else looks pretty good.
That makes sense. If I understand the rationale, it would be:
1) Nick moves the second attack that was in bonus action into the attack action.
2) The now empty Bonus Action can be filled with the Bonus Action attack granted by Dual Wielder.
That makes sense also. Reason being that Nick moves the bonus action attack into the 1st attack and without dual wielder there is nothing granting a bonus action attack.
Probably terrible wording on my part, but that makes sense, Nick doesn't in of itself grant an attack, it just moves a pre-existing attack from the bonus action into the attack action. This opens a place for Dual Wielder to put the attack from the bonus action attack granted when you perform the second attack with the light weapon in the attack action.
This makes a bunch more sense when you look at it from a bonus action management perspective. The amount of attacks with weapon 1 is set by your number of attacks. The number of attacks with weapon 2 are determined managing the bonus action clauses.
Thanks.
Is the math right then? Assuming a level 20 fighter (4 attacks) with nick and dual wielder: The fighter gets a total of six attacks, four with the light weapon as part of the attack action, one with the second weapon as part of the attack action because of Nick, and one with the second weapon as the bonus action.
If it helps, the conversation between @DerManiac and @jl8e in the thread Dual wield, Nick and light weapons is pretty good. They explained more details; check the post for more info.
Linked threads: