Should I calculate a DC based on "If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies." ? How do I do that, what would be the formula?
I was looking at it, because I was disapointed in the old rules giving spellcasters much higher DCs on their magic items than non-spellcasters. Why can't they provide a fixed DC for magic items? I was hoping the new rules would provide more clarity.
Yeah, I agree. It was the same under the 2014 rules.
@RogerWilco22144 the rule you mentioned from the DMG is related to the rule about Saving Throws and Attack Rolls in Chapter 7: Spells of the PHB.
DMG:
A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies.
PHB:
Saving Throws
Many spells specify that a target makes a saving throw to avoid some or all of a spell’s effects. The spell specifies the ability that the target uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure. Here’s how to calculate the DC for your spells:
Spell save DC = 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus
Attack Rolls
Some spells require the caster to make an attack roll to determine whether the spell hits a target. Here’s how to calculate the attack modifier for your spells:
Spell attack modifier = your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus
Yeah, I agree. It was the same under the 2014 rules.
@RogerWilco22144 the rule you mentioned from the DMG is related to the rule about Saving Throws and Attack Rolls in Chapter 7: Spells of the PHB.
DMG:
A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies.
PHB:
Saving Throws
Many spells specify that a target makes a saving throw to avoid some or all of a spell’s effects. The spell specifies the ability that the target uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure. Here’s how to calculate the DC for your spells:
Spell save DC = 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus
Attack Rolls
Some spells require the caster to make an attack roll to determine whether the spell hits a target. Here’s how to calculate the attack modifier for your spells:
Spell attack modifier = your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus
Right. Thank you for the excellent post and references.
My Rogue is really sad that they didn't fix this. A DC of 10-11 is a very low bar for NPCs, even if it now requires a Study action.
Anyone know of any reasoning why the designers chose to make magic items worse for non-casters?
Yeah, I agree. It was the same under the 2014 rules.
@RogerWilco22144 the rule you mentioned from the DMG is related to the rule about Saving Throws and Attack Rolls in Chapter 7: Spells of the PHB.
DMG:
A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies.
PHB:
Saving Throws
Many spells specify that a target makes a saving throw to avoid some or all of a spell’s effects. The spell specifies the ability that the target uses for the save and what happens on a success or failure. Here’s how to calculate the DC for your spells:
Spell save DC = 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus
Attack Rolls
Some spells require the caster to make an attack roll to determine whether the spell hits a target. Here’s how to calculate the attack modifier for your spells:
Spell attack modifier = your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus
Right. Thank you for the excellent post and references.
My Rogue is really sad that they didn't fix this. A DC of 10-11 is a very low bar for NPCs, even if it now requires a Study action.
Anyone know of any reasoning why the designers chose to make magic items worse for non-casters?
Most magic items use a fixed DC/attack bonus, so they work equally well for everyone. For the remainder, it seems logical that if you don’t actually know how to use magic, you won’t be particularly good at using magic effects.
Anyone know of any reasoning why the designers chose to make magic items worse for non-casters?
Most magic items use a fixed DC/attack bonus, so they work equally well for everyone. For the remainder, it seems logical that if you don’t actually know how to use magic, you won’t be particularly good at using magic effects.
But then why have a fixed DC for some items but not for others? What makes the Hat of Disguise special compared to a Trident of Fish command or Crystal Ball?
Anyone know of any reasoning why the designers chose to make magic items worse for non-casters?
Most magic items use a fixed DC/attack bonus, so they work equally well for everyone. For the remainder, it seems logical that if you don’t actually know how to use magic, you won’t be particularly good at using magic effects.
But then why have a fixed DC for some items but not for others? What makes the Hat of Disguise special compared to a Trident of Fish command or Crystal Ball?
Well, to start with, a Crystal Ball is Very Rare or Legendary and a Trident of Fish Command only has 3 uses per day, whereas a Hat of Disguise is an Uncommon item with unlimited uses.
Anyone know of any reasoning why the designers chose to make magic items worse for non-casters?
Most magic items use a fixed DC/attack bonus, so they work equally well for everyone. For the remainder, it seems logical that if you don’t actually know how to use magic, you won’t be particularly good at using magic effects.
But then why have a fixed DC for some items but not for others? What makes the Hat of Disguise special compared to a Trident of Fish command or Crystal Ball?
Well, to start with, a Crystal Ball is Very Rare or Legendary and a Trident of Fish Command only has 3 uses per day, whereas a Hat of Disguise is an Uncommon item with unlimited uses.
Yeah, I couldn't find any better examples in the Basic Rules. Thanks for the reply. I'm just dissapointed in the Hat of Disguise being quite useless.
Anyone know of any reasoning why the designers chose to make magic items worse for non-casters?
Most magic items use a fixed DC/attack bonus, so they work equally well for everyone. For the remainder, it seems logical that if you don’t actually know how to use magic, you won’t be particularly good at using magic effects.
But then why have a fixed DC for some items but not for others? What makes the Hat of Disguise special compared to a Trident of Fish command or Crystal Ball?
Well, to start with, a Crystal Ball is Very Rare or Legendary and a Trident of Fish Command only has 3 uses per day, whereas a Hat of Disguise is an Uncommon item with unlimited uses.
Yeah, I couldn't find any better examples in the Basic Rules. Thanks for the reply. I'm just dissapointed in the Hat of Disguise being quite useless.
It’s not useless- half the point of wearing a disguise is to avoid close scrutiny in the first place, and Investigation isn’t particularly common as a skill on NPCs.
Anyone know of any reasoning why the designers chose to make magic items worse for non-casters?
Most magic items use a fixed DC/attack bonus, so they work equally well for everyone. For the remainder, it seems logical that if you don’t actually know how to use magic, you won’t be particularly good at using magic effects.
But then why have a fixed DC for some items but not for others? What makes the Hat of Disguise special compared to a Trident of Fish command or Crystal Ball?
Well, to start with, a Crystal Ball is Very Rare or Legendary and a Trident of Fish Command only has 3 uses per day, whereas a Hat of Disguise is an Uncommon item with unlimited uses.
Yeah, I couldn't find any better examples in the Basic Rules. Thanks for the reply. I'm just dissapointed in the Hat of Disguise being quite useless.
Purely from an RP perspective too, as opposed a mechanical one, it makes sense that a non-caster would struggle to craft believable illusions
I'm not sure how consistent it is in the book, but fixed DC items should be ones where the item basically does all the work. To pick one classic example, no matter who plucks the bead off the necklace and throws it, the fireball is still the same big boom
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Speaking of rogues in particular, it does seem like a bit of an oversight that Thief's Use Magic Device feature doesn't address this at all. Be nice if they could use their INT mod or something for magic item DCs.
. . .A DC of 10-11 is a very low bar for NPCs, even if it now requires a Study action. . .
The DC of 10-11 may be a relatively low bar, but the fact that it requires a Study action is huge. A Study action isn't just looking at someone as they walk past you. It's an examination that takes an exertion of effort. An NPC is only going to take a Study action if there is some significant reason for them to suspect something is wrong.
As an example, a mob is chasing your rogue, your rogue ducks into an alley and uses stealth. The mob enters the alley and the rogue uses Hat of Disguise and slips into the mob. If the members of the mob even take Study actions, they will probably be for things like secret doors or signs of escape up a wall. They might do a Study action on a beggar asleep in the alley in case it was your rogue in disguise, but it is really unlikely that they will Study each other.
A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies.
Note that Aasimar, Elves, Gnomes, and Tieflings have the ability to cast spells and a defined Spellcasting Ability. The same applies for a feat I spot checked. So don't assume that because you aren't a spellcasting class, you don't have a Spellcasting Ability. I have not checked Legacy races, feats, and other content to see if it has the same verbiage. If it doesn't I feel it should be adjudicated as if it did.
This may be a reason not to dump stats associated with that spellcasting if you want to use magic items that cast spells and don't have a set DC.
A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies.
Note that Aasimar, Elves, Gnomes, and Tieflings have the ability to cast spells and a defined Spellcasting Ability. The same applies for a feat I spot checked. So don't assume that because you aren't a spellcasting class, you don't have a Spellcasting Ability. I have not checked Legacy races, feats, and other content to see if it has the same verbiage. If it doesn't I feel it should be adjudicated as if it did.
This may be a reason not to dump stats associated with that spellcasting if you want to use magic items that cast spells and don't have a set DC.
Yes, but you use that Spellcasting Ability only for the spells related to that specific trait:
For example (emphasis mine):
Gnomish Lineage. You are part of a lineage that grants you supernatural abilities. Choose one of the following options; whichever one you choose, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for the spells you cast with this trait (choose the ability when you select the lineage):
Or:
Elven Lineage. [...] When you reach character levels 3 and 5, you learn a higher-level spell, as shown on the table. You always have that spell prepared. You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for the spells you cast with this trait (choose the ability when you select the lineage).
A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies.
Note that Aasimar, Elves, Gnomes, and Tieflings have the ability to cast spells and a defined Spellcasting Ability. The same applies for a feat I spot checked. So don't assume that because you aren't a spellcasting class, you don't have a Spellcasting Ability. I have not checked Legacy races, feats, and other content to see if it has the same verbiage. If it doesn't I feel it should be adjudicated as if it did.
This may be a reason not to dump stats associated with that spellcasting if you want to use magic items that cast spells and don't have a set DC.
Yes, but you use that Spellcasting Ability only for the spells related to that specific trait:
For example (emphasis mine):
Gnomish Lineage. You are part of a lineage that grants you supernatural abilities. Choose one of the following options; whichever one you choose, Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for the spells you cast with this trait (choose the ability when you select the lineage):
Or:
Elven Lineage. [...] When you reach character levels 3 and 5, you learn a higher-level spell, as shown on the table. You always have that spell prepared. You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for the spells you cast with this trait (choose the ability when you select the lineage).
The word 'only' doesn't appear in either of those, though
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies.
Note that Aasimar, Elves, Gnomes, and Tieflings have the ability to cast spells and a defined Spellcasting Ability. The same applies for a feat I spot checked. So don't assume that because you aren't a spellcasting class, you don't have a Spellcasting Ability. I have not checked Legacy races, feats, and other content to see if it has the same verbiage. If it doesn't I feel it should be adjudicated as if it did.
This may be a reason not to dump stats associated with that spellcasting if you want to use magic items that cast spells and don't have a set DC.
Yes, but you use that Spellcasting Ability only for the spells related to that specific trait: [...]
The word 'only' doesn't appear in either of those, though
Very true. Indeed, this is one of my eternal questions. Now it's the moment to ask.
Let's assume you're an orc barbarian at level 1 (no Spellcasting feature then) but have the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat (e.g., from the Sage background). From that moment, I understand you're both saying the character can use Intelligence as their spellcasting ability modifier for all Magic Items that require it.
If so, I'm leaning towards changing my mind on this topic.
Two Cantrips. You learn two cantrips of your choice from the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell list. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this feat’s spells (choose when you select this feat).
A magic item may require the user to use their own spellcasting ability when casting a spell from the item. If the user has more than one spellcasting ability, the user chooses which one to use with the item. If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies.
Note that Aasimar, Elves, Gnomes, and Tieflings have the ability to cast spells and a defined Spellcasting Ability. The same applies for a feat I spot checked. So don't assume that because you aren't a spellcasting class, you don't have a Spellcasting Ability. I have not checked Legacy races, feats, and other content to see if it has the same verbiage. If it doesn't I feel it should be adjudicated as if it did.
This may be a reason not to dump stats associated with that spellcasting if you want to use magic items that cast spells and don't have a set DC.
Yes, but you use that Spellcasting Ability only for the spells related to that specific trait: [...]
The word 'only' doesn't appear in either of those, though
Very true. Indeed, this is one of my eternal questions. Now it's the moment to ask.
Let's assume you're an orc barbarian at level 1 (no Spellcasting feature then) but have the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat (e.g., from the Sage background). From that moment, I understand you're both saying the character can use Intelligence as their spellcasting ability modifier for all Magic Items that require it.
If so, I'm leaning towards changing my mind on this topic.
Two Cantrips. You learn two cantrips of your choice from the Cleric, Druid, or Wizard spell list. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for this feat’s spells (choose when you select this feat).
Yeah, that's how I'd rule it. You have a spellcasting ability from the feat, which is all the magic item rules look for
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Hello everyone,
I was looking at the Hat of Disguise, and I was wondering what the spell save DC would be for a character who is not a spellcaster:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/magic-items-a-z#HatofDisguise
I can find some rules for spells cast from items, but that does not provide a clear answer to me:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/free-rules/magic-items#SpellsCastfromItems
Should I calculate a DC based on "If the user doesn’t have a spellcasting ability, their spellcasting ability modifier is +0 for the item, and the user’s Proficiency Bonus applies." ? How do I do that, what would be the formula?
I was looking at it, because I was disapointed in the old rules giving spellcasters much higher DCs on their magic items than non-spellcasters. Why can't they provide a fixed DC for magic items? I was hoping the new rules would provide more clarity.
Thank you.
I believe it would be:
(Spell save DC = 8 + your spellcasting ability modifier + your Proficiency Bonus)
So, Spell save DC = 8 + 0 + your Proficiency Bonus (For a non caster)
Yeah, I agree. It was the same under the 2014 rules.
@RogerWilco22144 the rule you mentioned from the DMG is related to the rule about Saving Throws and Attack Rolls in Chapter 7: Spells of the PHB.
DMG:
PHB:
Right. Thank you for the excellent post and references.
My Rogue is really sad that they didn't fix this. A DC of 10-11 is a very low bar for NPCs, even if it now requires a Study action.
Anyone know of any reasoning why the designers chose to make magic items worse for non-casters?
Most magic items use a fixed DC/attack bonus, so they work equally well for everyone. For the remainder, it seems logical that if you don’t actually know how to use magic, you won’t be particularly good at using magic effects.
But then why have a fixed DC for some items but not for others? What makes the Hat of Disguise special compared to a Trident of Fish command or Crystal Ball?
Well, to start with, a Crystal Ball is Very Rare or Legendary and a Trident of Fish Command only has 3 uses per day, whereas a Hat of Disguise is an Uncommon item with unlimited uses.
Yeah, I couldn't find any better examples in the Basic Rules. Thanks for the reply. I'm just dissapointed in the Hat of Disguise being quite useless.
It’s not useless- half the point of wearing a disguise is to avoid close scrutiny in the first place, and Investigation isn’t particularly common as a skill on NPCs.
Purely from an RP perspective too, as opposed a mechanical one, it makes sense that a non-caster would struggle to craft believable illusions
I'm not sure how consistent it is in the book, but fixed DC items should be ones where the item basically does all the work. To pick one classic example, no matter who plucks the bead off the necklace and throws it, the fireball is still the same big boom
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Speaking of rogues in particular, it does seem like a bit of an oversight that Thief's Use Magic Device feature doesn't address this at all. Be nice if they could use their INT mod or something for magic item DCs.
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Personally I think it’s a fair handicap for getting to be able to utilize any magic item, often as a Bonus Action.
The DC of 10-11 may be a relatively low bar, but the fact that it requires a Study action is huge. A Study action isn't just looking at someone as they walk past you. It's an examination that takes an exertion of effort. An NPC is only going to take a Study action if there is some significant reason for them to suspect something is wrong.
As an example, a mob is chasing your rogue, your rogue ducks into an alley and uses stealth. The mob enters the alley and the rogue uses Hat of Disguise and slips into the mob. If the members of the mob even take Study actions, they will probably be for things like secret doors or signs of escape up a wall. They might do a Study action on a beggar asleep in the alley in case it was your rogue in disguise, but it is really unlikely that they will Study each other.
Note that Aasimar, Elves, Gnomes, and Tieflings have the ability to cast spells and a defined Spellcasting Ability. The same applies for a feat I spot checked. So don't assume that because you aren't a spellcasting class, you don't have a Spellcasting Ability. I have not checked Legacy races, feats, and other content to see if it has the same verbiage. If it doesn't I feel it should be adjudicated as if it did.
This may be a reason not to dump stats associated with that spellcasting if you want to use magic items that cast spells and don't have a set DC.
Yes, but you use that Spellcasting Ability only for the spells related to that specific trait:
For example (emphasis mine):
Or:
The word 'only' doesn't appear in either of those, though
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Very true. Indeed, this is one of my eternal questions. Now it's the moment to ask.
Let's assume you're an orc barbarian at level 1 (no Spellcasting feature then) but have the Magic Initiate (Wizard) feat (e.g., from the Sage background). From that moment, I understand you're both saying the character can use Intelligence as their spellcasting ability modifier for all Magic Items that require it.
If so, I'm leaning towards changing my mind on this topic.
---
Yeah, that's how I'd rule it. You have a spellcasting ability from the feat, which is all the magic item rules look for
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
@AntonSirius thanks for your reply. I'll follow your lead.