I'm doing a bard and warlock multiclass, I know that you can use the bard's spellslots to cast the spells you've prepared with your warlock class, and pacts slots can be used to cast the bard's prepared spells, and no multiclass spellslots tables are needed.
However, with "Psychic Spells" (When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic. In addition, when you cast a Warlock spell that is an Enchantment or Illusion, you can do so without Verbal or Somatic components), what is exactly considered a Warlock spell?
Is it only the prepared spells on the warlock side? Or is it all available spells on the Warlock Spells list (so I can use the Bard's spellslots and it'd still work)? Or is it only the spells cast through pact slots (even the Bard's prepared spells)? And what about cantrips such as Minor Illusion, it's in both their spell list table, but if I have the cantrip through the bard and not the warlock, can I still use Psychic Spells with it?
If you get the spell through Pact Magic, it's a Warlock spell.
This might be more obvious if it were a warlock/wizard multiclass. Wizard-prepared spells would be cast with Intelligence, while Warlock-prepared would be Charisma.
If you get the spell through Pact Magic, it's a Warlock spell.
This might be more obvious if it were a warlock/wizard multiclass. Wizard-prepared spells would be cast with Intelligence, while Warlock-prepared would be Charisma.
I never tried multi classing before so not sure about this but if you use a spellslot from the Wizard but cast one of your Warlock spells you still cast it with your Cha modifier rather than Int? (That would indeed make it clearer for my situations)
And, if I understood correctly, that would mean I could use Psychic Spells with all the spells cast with the Bard's spellslot but they have to be prepared on the Warlock's side, not just in his spell list table.
Pact Magic. If you have the Pact Magic feature from the Warlock class and the Spellcasting feature, you can use the spell slots you gain from Pact Magic to cast spells you have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting feature to cast Warlock spells you have prepared
A spell is a Warlock spell if you learned it as a part of your Warlock class features- either from leveling up directly, your Pact spell list in 24, or and invocation or similar feature. In this case, casting a spell you learned this way with spell slots from your Bard class levels should still qualify for the Psychic Spells feature.
A spell is a Warlock spell if you learned it as a part of your Warlock class features
Although this was the common interpretation of the 2014 rules, from what I am seeing this seems to have changed in the 2024 rules. It appears that there has been some clarification that in 2024 a Warlock spell is simply a spell that appears on the Warlock spell list:
From Character Classes --> Warlock --> Warlock Class Features --> Level 1: Pact Magic:
The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
It's important to note that the information has been reorganized such that the spell list appears "later in the class's description". Previously, in 2014, the class list was presented at the beginning of Chapter 11: Spells which was the same chapter as the various spell descriptions and was separate from the class information for each class. Now, the list appears within the class description. It has basically become its own class feature of sorts.
From Character Classes --> Warlock --> Warlock Spell List:
This section presents the Warlock spell list.
. . .
Cantrips (Level 0 Warlock Spells)
. . .
Level 1 Warlock Spells
. . .
etc
We can see that other classes have extremely similar structure and wording:
From Character Classes --> Wizard --> Wizard Class Features --> Level 1: Spellcasting:
The information below details how you use those rules with Wizard spells, which appear in the Wizard spell list later in the class’s description.
For multiclassing, it gets a bit tricky because we have this rule:
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
It might be easy to assume from this rule that the manner in which the spell is prepared or learned or acquired is what determines whether or not the spell is a Warlock spell. But this rule does not actually say that. It just says that the spell that is prepared is associated with one of your classes and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. This is not actually the same as determining if the spell is a Warlock spell or not. As we saw above, in 2024, that is determined by whether or not that spell appears on the Warlock spell list and that's the only criteria.
... Can anyone else follow all that, because honestly I'm lost. This seems like one of those cases where an extremely literal and nitpicky RAW reading is getting in the way of the obvious RAI, if that. The most relevant section of text for what makes a class spell seems to be this:
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
It might be easy to assume from this rule that the manner in which the spell is prepared or learned or acquired is what determines whether or not the spell is a Warlock spell. But this rule does not actually say that. It just says that the spell that is prepared is associated with one of your classes and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. This is not actually the same as determining if the spell is a Warlock spell or not. As we saw above, in 2024, that is determined by whether or not that spell appears on the Warlock spell list and that's the only criteria.
You have quoted the general rules.
However, class and subclass features and backgrounds are common specific rules that override the general and change what is on the class lists.
Things get muddy when you multiclass, but for these examples, let's stick to single class characters.
For example, the Pact of the Tome gives you cantrips that are Warlock Cantrips for you (while you hold the tome) and can be used with Eldritch Evocation (again, while you hold the tome).
The Strixhaven and Ravnica backgrounds add specific spells to your class list, and if you have multiple spell casting classes, adds them to all of the lists, the allows a Boros Legionaire Warlock to cast Sacred Flame as a Warlock spell. Similarly, a Warlock with a Celestial Patron can cast Cure Wounds as a Warlock spell, because the Celestial Patron adds spells to the Warlock class list. In both of these scenarios, the spells (Sacred Flame and Cure Wounds) are Warlock spells and not Cleric spells.
If a Bard used Magical Secrets to learn a Warlock spell, it would then be Bard spells and not Warlock spells.
To sum up, how a spell is acquired in no uncertain terms is absolutely how you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class.
... Can anyone else follow all that, because honestly I'm lost. This seems like one of those cases where an extremely literal and nitpicky RAW reading is getting in the way of the obvious RAI, if that. The most relevant section of text for what makes a class spell seems to be this:
If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
I guess what happened is that @up2ng tried to give a different point of view on the OP by quoting you, but included a bunch of reasons and explanations that clearly aren't the right answer.
Your sentence is key, and it's used in many classes with the Spellcasting feature. Here's one more for comparison:
If another Druid feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Druid spells for you.
It might be easy to assume from this rule that the manner in which the spell is prepared or learned or acquired is what determines whether or not the spell is a Warlock spell. But this rule does not actually say that. It just says that the spell that is prepared is associated with one of your classes and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. This is not actually the same as determining if the spell is a Warlock spell or not. As we saw above, in 2024, that is determined by whether or not that spell appears on the Warlock spell list and that's the only criteria.
You have quoted the general rules.
However, class and subclass features and backgrounds are common specific rules that override the general and change what is on the class lists.
Things get muddy when you multiclass, but for these examples, let's stick to single class characters.
For example, the Pact of the Tome gives you cantrips that are Warlock Cantrips for you (while you hold the tome) and can be used with Eldritch Evocation (again, while you hold the tome).
The Strixhaven and Ravnica backgrounds add specific spells to your class list, and if you have multiple spell casting classes, adds them to all of the lists, the allows a Boros Legionaire Warlock to cast Sacred Flame as a Warlock spell. Similarly, a Warlock with a Celestial Patron can cast Cure Wounds as a Warlock spell, because the Celestial Patron adds spells to the Warlock class list. In both of these scenarios, the spells (Sacred Flame and Cure Wounds) are Warlock spells and not Cleric spells.
If a Bard used Magical Secrets to learn a Warlock spell, it would then be Bard spells and not Warlock spells.
To sum up, how a spell is acquired in no uncertain terms is absolutely how you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class.
I guess what happened is that @up2ng tried to give a different point of view on the OP by quoting you, but included a bunch of reasons and explanations that clearly aren't the right answer.
Incorrect. My answer above is the correct answer for this topic. But also, the subsequent information given by @SmiteMakesRight_3_5 is correct as well, right up until the last couple of sentences of his post:
Similarly, a Warlock with a Celestial Patron can cast Cure Wounds as a Warlock spell, because the Celestial Patron adds spells to the Warlock class list. In both of these scenarios, the spells (Sacred Flame and Cure Wounds) are Warlock spells and not Cleric spells.
If a Bard used Magical Secrets to learn a Warlock spell, it would then be Bard spells and not Warlock spells.
To sum up, how a spell is acquired in no uncertain terms is absolutely how you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class.
You are on the right track here, but you are drawing the wrong conclusions. In your Cure Wounds example, the spell is added to the Warlock class list. THAT is what makes it a Warlock spell in that case. However, that does NOT cause it to no longer be a Cleric spell. There was no mention of removing the spell from the Cleric list. The spell is now both -- it's a Cleric spell and now it's also a Warlock spell. The fact that it's still a Cleric spell is mostly irrelevant for you (the Warlock) since you don't have any class Features that let you do anything with Cleric spells. But, since the spell is now ALSO a Warlock spell, you can use it.
Same story for the Bard that learns a Warlock spell. That spell becomes a Bard spell, but it's still ALSO a Warlock spell. The Bard then uses it because it is a Bard spell.
This statement: "how a spell is acquired in no uncertain terms is absolutely how you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class."
. . . is incorrect.
In 2024, the way that you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class is whether or not the spell appears on the class list. That's the general rule.
However, there are certainly also many specific rules which explicitly make statements such as: "this spell counts as a Warlock spell for you". When you see a Feature like that, then such a spell does indeed count, since Features do what they say. However, the absence of such a Feature is not restrictive, like it may have been in 2014.
So, for example, the multiclass rules regarding preparing a spell by using your Wizard Feature or by preparing a spell by using your Warlock Feature no longer restricts what type of spell it is. If the spell appears on the class list, it always counts now. There may be explicit specific Features that essentially add to this list, and that's fine. But we no longer exclude spells based only on how they were acquired / prepared / cast / etc.
So, in 2024, if you have a Feature that applies to "Warlock spells" then it doesn't matter if the spell was prepared with your Wizard Feature and was cast by applying your Wizard (INT) modifier -- if that spell exists on the Warlock spell list then that spell is a Warlock spell. There might also be some explicit and specific additional reasons why that spell is a Warlock spell.
For those of us that are familiar with how things were generally interpreted under the 2014 rules, we need to brain dump all of that and really go back and read what's been written in the 2024 rules and recognize the changes that have been made.
This statement: "how a spell is acquired in no uncertain terms is absolutely how you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class."
. . . is incorrect.
In 2024, the way that you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class is whether or not the spell appears on the class list. That's the general rule.
However, there are certainly also many specific rules which explicitly make statements such as: "this spell counts as a Warlock spell for you". When you see a Feature like that, then such a spell does indeed count, since Features do what they say. However, the absence of such a Feature is not restrictive, like it may have been in 2014.
So, for example, the multiclass rules regarding preparing a spell by using your Wizard Feature or by preparing a spell by using your Warlock Feature no longer restricts what type of spell it is. If the spell appears on the class list, it always counts now. There may be explicit specific Features that essentially add to this list, and that's fine. But we no longer exclude spells based only on how they were acquired / prepared / cast / etc.
So, in 2024, if you have a Feature that applies to "Warlock spells" then it doesn't matter if the spell was prepared with your Wizard Feature and was cast by applying your Wizard (INT) modifier -- if that spell exists on the Warlock spell list then that spell is a Warlock spell. There might also be some explicit and specific additional reasons why that spell is a Warlock spell.
Please reread to the 2024 section on Spellcasting under Multiclassing (link is closest to the relevant section; scroll down to Spells Prepared). You quoted it above, but let me add emphasis to some key portions.
You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
And, in order to prepare it a spell in a slot, a class feature determines whether you can prepare it. A Class List will start as the basis (General Rule), but then it will be modified by class features (Specific Rules).
So, in my example, for the Celestial Warlock (no Cleric levels), the Cure Wounds spell is a Warlock spell and not a Cleric spell. In a multiclass scenario, it would have to be prepared in a Cleric slot to be a Cleric spell. Spells always prepared by a class feature will always be a spell of that class and only that class.
For those of us that are familiar with how things were generally interpreted under the 2014 rules, we need to brain dump all of that and really go back and read what's been written in the 2024 rules and recognize the changes that have been made.
In 2024, the way that you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class is whether or not the spell appears on the class list. [...]
Not really. For example, as a barbarian gnome, you know some spells thanks to the Gnomish Lineage trait. However, these spells aren't considered class spells.
In 2024, the way that you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class is whether or not the spell appears on the class list. [...]
Not really. For example, as a barbarian gnome, you know some spells thanks to the Gnomish Lineage trait. However, these spells aren't considered class spells.
I would have to see the exact wording of the Gnomish Lineage trait to properly respond to this. But I will say in general that if the trait for some reason explicitly included wording such as "This spell counts as a Wizard spell for you", then your Barbarian Gnome now knows a Wizard spell. And in addition, if that spell actually appears on the Warlock spell list, then that Barbarian Gnome now (also) knows a Warlock spell. And further, if this Barbarian Gnome then somehow gained access to the Psychic Spells feature mentioned in the original posts which begins with the text that says: "When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic . . ." then if your Barbarian Gnome casts this spell that was acquired through his Gnomish Lineage trait then he would be able to change its damage type to Psychic.
Please reread to the 2024 section on Spellcasting under Multiclassing (link is closest to the relevant section; scroll down to Spells Prepared). You quoted it above, but let me add emphasis to some key portions.
You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
And, in order to prepare it a spell in a slot, a class feature determines whether you can prepare it. A Class List will start as the basis (General Rule), but then it will be modified by class features (Specific Rules).
So, in my example, for the Celestial Warlock (no Cleric levels), the Cure Wounds spell is a Warlock spell and not a Cleric spell. In a multiclass scenario, it would have to be prepared in a Cleric slot to be a Cleric spell. Spells always prepared by a class feature will always be a spell of that class and only that class
You are correct about how all of this works right up until that very last sentence. There is absolutely no rule whatsoever that determines that "Spells always prepared by a class feature will always be a spell of that class and only that class".
The rules for casting spells as a multiclass character are exactly that -- the rules for casting spells as a multiclass character. None of that determines what is a "Warlock spell".
In order to prepare and cast a spell, you must use a feature that allows you to do so. In general, a class feature will only allow you to prepare that class's spells. But that is NOT what determines which class a particular spell belongs to -- it's the other way around. The class that a spell belongs to is determined elsewhere first. THEN, the class feature may or may not be able to prepare that spell based on whether or not that spell belongs to that class.
The bit about "Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes" is not determining which class or classes that spell belongs to. It is simply defining the procedure of consistency that must be followed through to the end for a multiclass character. If a character uses a Wizard feature to prepare the spell, then the Wizard spellcaster ability (INT) will be used when the spell is cast. If instead the character uses a Warlock feature to prepare the spell, then the Warlock spellcaster ability (CHA) will be used when the spell is cast. That's it. That's all that that rule is saying. Making any additional conclusions from that rule is reading more into the text than is actually written there.
In 2024, the general rule for what actually determines if a spell is a "Warlock spell" is this:
From Character Classes --> Warlock --> Warlock Class Features --> Level 1: Pact Magic:
See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
. . .
Warlock Spell List
This section presents the Warlock spell list. The spells are organized by spell level and then alphabetized, and each spell’s school of magic is listed. In the Special column, C means the spell requires Concentration, R means it’s a Ritual, and M means it requires a specific Material component.
If a spell is on a class’s spell list, the class’s name appears in parentheses after the spell’s school of magic. Some features add a spell to a character’s spell list even if the character isn’t a member of a class in the parentheses.
In 2024, the way that you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class is whether or not the spell appears on the class list. [...]
Not really. For example, as a barbarian gnome, you know some spells thanks to the Gnomish Lineage trait. However, these spells aren't considered class spells.
I would have to see the exact wording of the Gnomish Lineage trait to properly respond to this. But I will say in general that if the trait for some reason explicitly included wording such as "This spell counts as a Wizard spell for you", then your Barbarian Gnome now knows a Wizard spell. [...]
Exactly. That wording isn't present in the trait, so the Barbarian Gnome doesn't know a class spell, just a spell they can cast.
What is the class list for a Wizard? The spellcasting feature tells you to use the Wizard class list.
What is the Class List of an Eldritch Knight (fighter)? The spellcasting feature tells you to use the Wizard class list.
The class lists mean nothing without the class feature making spells from the class list a class spell.
By the same token, a gnome barbarian can cast speak with animals but it's not a Druid spell and they cannot cast it from a scroll because it's not a class spell for them.
But the spell you can cast via Gnomish or Elven Lineage remain a spell on a class’s spell list appearing in parenthese after the spell’s school of magic, the Trait doesn't remove that.
But the spell you can cast via Gnomish or Elven Lineage remain a spell on a class’s spell list appearing in parenthese after the spell’s school of magic, the Trait doesn't remove that.
They are not a class spell for you unless a class feature makes them one for you. They are on a class list, but that has no meaning until a class feature makes spells on the class list a class spell. Barbarian doesn't do that.
In 2024, the way that you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class is whether or not the spell appears on the class list. [...]
Not really. For example, as a barbarian gnome, you know some spells thanks to the Gnomish Lineage trait. However, these spells aren't considered class spells.
I would have to see the exact wording of the Gnomish Lineage trait to properly respond to this. But I will say in general that if the trait for some reason explicitly included wording such as "This spell counts as a Wizard spell for you", then your Barbarian Gnome now knows a Wizard spell. [...]
Exactly. That wording isn't present in the trait, so the Barbarian Gnome doesn't know a class spell, just a spell they can cast.
You seem to have accidentally cut off a large portion of the paragraph where I explained how this works. Let me re-post that for you for convenience:
I would have to see the exact wording of the Gnomish Lineage trait to properly respond to this. But I will say in general that if the trait for some reason explicitly included wording such as "This spell counts as a Wizard spell for you", then your Barbarian Gnome now knows a Wizard spell. And in addition, if that spell actually appears on the Warlock spell list, then that Barbarian Gnome now (also) knows a Warlock spell. And further, if this Barbarian Gnome then somehow gained access to the Psychic Spells feature mentioned in the original posts which begins with the text that says: "When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic . . ." then if your Barbarian Gnome casts this spell that was acquired through his Gnomish Lineage trait then he would be able to change its damage type to Psychic.
Since you mentioned the Elven Lineage trait and I can see the wording for that, we can use that as an example:
Elven Lineage. You are part of a lineage that grants you supernatural abilities. Choose a lineage from the Elven Lineages table. You gain the level 1 benefit of that lineage.
When you reach character levels 3 and 5, you learn a higher-level spell, as shown on the table. You always have that spell prepared. You can cast it once without a spell slot, and you regain the ability to cast it in that way when you finish a Long Rest. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of the appropriate level. Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for the spells you cast with this trait (choose the ability when you select the lineage).
This trait provides an alternate method for learning, preparing and casting some specific spells. Using this trait to do so instead of a class feature such as Spellcasting or Pact Magic has nothing at all do to with whether or not those specific spells are Warlock spells or not. It's simply another way to cast spells which has its own rules associated with doing so. You might also gain a Feat which has its own rules for casting some specific spells as well. So what? Which class Feature, species trait or Feat is used to learn, prepare and cast a spell does not determine whether or not a spell is a Warlock spell. In 2014 such arguments had merit based on how things were worded and organized. In 2024 this has been cleaned up and clarified and the definition of a Warlock spell is now written directly into the rules without any need for further interpretation.
To finish with this example, one lineage which can be chosen is Drow. With this lineage, you gain a trait which allows you to cast the Darkness spell in a specific way as detailed in the trait's description beginning at Level 5. Darkness is a Sorcerer spell. Darkness is also a Warlock spell. Darkness is also a Wizard spell. It just is. That's how the terminology is used in 2024. If this Drow character somehow had access to the Psychic Spells feature that was mentioned in the original post which begins with the phrase "When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic", then (if the Darkness spell was a damage dealing spell) this Drow character would have the ability to change the damage type of this hypothetical damage dealing Darkness spell to Psychic without any other requirement about which class this Drow actually belongs to or by which method this Drow is choosing to cast this spell.
What is the class list for a Wizard? The spellcasting feature tells you to use the Wizard class list.
What is the Class List of an Eldritch Knight (fighter)? The spellcasting feature tells you to use the Wizard class list.
The Wizard spells are listed in the Wizard spell list. We know this because of this text:
See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Wizard spells, which appear in the Wizard spell list later in the class’s description.
There is no rules text anywhere which defines a Fighter spell -- there are none. The Fighter (including the Eldritch Knight) does not have a spell list.
The class lists mean nothing without the class feature making spells from the class list a class spell.
This is not how it works in 2024. You are making assumptions based on how you think it works instead of actually looking at what is written.
The class lists do have meaning. They list the Warlock spells, the Wizard spells, and so on. Not because of their mere existence. But because there is a rule which clearly defines the terms Warlock spell, Wizard spell and so on as being a spell which appears on the specified list:
See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Warlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Wizard spells, which appear in the Wizard spell list later in the class’s description.
By the same token, a gnome barbarian can cast speak with animals but it's not a Druid spell
This is false. Speak with Animals is a Druid spell:
See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Druid spells, which appear on the Druid spell list later in the class’s description.
They are not a class spell for you unless a class feature makes them one for you. They are on a class list, but that has no meaning until a class feature makes spells on the class list a class spell. Barbarian doesn't do that.
There is nothing in the 2024 rules that actually says any of this. If you think that this is written somewhere, feel free to quote it.
If you are a Wizard, you might have access to a class feature that allows you to cast some specific spells by following the rules and procedures that are defined in that feature. But that's not what makes a Wizard spell a Wizard spell. That's just a feature that allows a Wizard to cast some specific spells by following certain rules and procedures. That's all.
What actually makes a Wizard spell a Wizard spell is what the written rules actually say about what makes a Wizard spell and Wizard spell. And very explicitly, that rule is this:
See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Wizard spells, which appear in the Wizard spell list later in the class’s description.
Please reread to the 2024 section on Spellcasting under Multiclassing (link is closest to the relevant section; scroll down to Spells Prepared). You quoted it above, but let me add emphasis to some key portions.
You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
A gnome barbarian can cast Speak with Animals, but it is not associated with a class (such as Druid) and when casting it once per day without a spell slot, it is a level 1 spell (not that it has an improved effect for a higher level slot).
A multiclassed Sorcerer/Warlock can cast their prepared Sorcerer and Warlock spells with the multiclass slots, but the spells are prepared individually as Sorcerer or Warlock spells; Charm Person prepared only as a Sorcerer Spell is not a Warlock spell for that character for that day. By the same token, a lineage spell is not prepared as any class spell.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I'm doing a bard and warlock multiclass, I know that you can use the bard's spellslots to cast the spells you've prepared with your warlock class, and pacts slots can be used to cast the bard's prepared spells, and no multiclass spellslots tables are needed.
However, with "Psychic Spells" (When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic. In addition, when you cast a Warlock spell that is an Enchantment or Illusion, you can do so without Verbal or Somatic components), what is exactly considered a Warlock spell?
Is it only the prepared spells on the warlock side? Or is it all available spells on the Warlock Spells list (so I can use the Bard's spellslots and it'd still work)? Or is it only the spells cast through pact slots (even the Bard's prepared spells)? And what about cantrips such as Minor Illusion, it's in both their spell list table, but if I have the cantrip through the bard and not the warlock, can I still use Psychic Spells with it?
If you get the spell through Pact Magic, it's a Warlock spell.
This might be more obvious if it were a warlock/wizard multiclass. Wizard-prepared spells would be cast with Intelligence, while Warlock-prepared would be Charisma.
I never tried multi classing before so not sure about this but if you use a spellslot from the Wizard but cast one of your Warlock spells you still cast it with your Cha modifier rather than Int? (That would indeed make it clearer for my situations)
And, if I understood correctly, that would mean I could use Psychic Spells with all the spells cast with the Bard's spellslot but they have to be prepared on the Warlock's side, not just in his spell list table.
From the current PHB:
Pact Magic. If you have the Pact Magic feature from the Warlock class and the Spellcasting feature, you can use the spell slots you gain from Pact Magic to cast spells you have prepared from classes with the Spellcasting feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the Spellcasting feature to cast Warlock spells you have prepared
A spell is a Warlock spell if you learned it as a part of your Warlock class features- either from leveling up directly, your Pact spell list in 24, or and invocation or similar feature. In this case, casting a spell you learned this way with spell slots from your Bard class levels should still qualify for the Psychic Spells feature.
Although this was the common interpretation of the 2014 rules, from what I am seeing this seems to have changed in the 2024 rules. It appears that there has been some clarification that in 2024 a Warlock spell is simply a spell that appears on the Warlock spell list:
From Character Classes --> Warlock --> Warlock Class Features --> Level 1: Pact Magic:
It's important to note that the information has been reorganized such that the spell list appears "later in the class's description". Previously, in 2014, the class list was presented at the beginning of Chapter 11: Spells which was the same chapter as the various spell descriptions and was separate from the class information for each class. Now, the list appears within the class description. It has basically become its own class feature of sorts.
From Character Classes --> Warlock --> Warlock Spell List:
We can see that other classes have extremely similar structure and wording:
From Character Classes --> Wizard --> Wizard Class Features --> Level 1: Spellcasting:
For multiclassing, it gets a bit tricky because we have this rule:
It might be easy to assume from this rule that the manner in which the spell is prepared or learned or acquired is what determines whether or not the spell is a Warlock spell. But this rule does not actually say that. It just says that the spell that is prepared is associated with one of your classes and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell. This is not actually the same as determining if the spell is a Warlock spell or not. As we saw above, in 2024, that is determined by whether or not that spell appears on the Warlock spell list and that's the only criteria.
... Can anyone else follow all that, because honestly I'm lost. This seems like one of those cases where an extremely literal and nitpicky RAW reading is getting in the way of the obvious RAI, if that. The most relevant section of text for what makes a class spell seems to be this:
You have quoted the general rules.
However, class and subclass features and backgrounds are common specific rules that override the general and change what is on the class lists.
Things get muddy when you multiclass, but for these examples, let's stick to single class characters.
For example, the Pact of the Tome gives you cantrips that are Warlock Cantrips for you (while you hold the tome) and can be used with Eldritch Evocation (again, while you hold the tome).
The Strixhaven and Ravnica backgrounds add specific spells to your class list, and if you have multiple spell casting classes, adds them to all of the lists, the allows a Boros Legionaire Warlock to cast Sacred Flame as a Warlock spell. Similarly, a Warlock with a Celestial Patron can cast Cure Wounds as a Warlock spell, because the Celestial Patron adds spells to the Warlock class list. In both of these scenarios, the spells (Sacred Flame and Cure Wounds) are Warlock spells and not Cleric spells.
If a Bard used Magical Secrets to learn a Warlock spell, it would then be Bard spells and not Warlock spells.
To sum up, how a spell is acquired in no uncertain terms is absolutely how you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class.
I guess what happened is that @up2ng tried to give a different point of view on the OP by quoting you, but included a bunch of reasons and explanations that clearly aren't the right answer.
Your sentence is key, and it's used in many classes with the Spellcasting feature. Here's one more for comparison:
Agreed.
In fact, we recently created a thread discussing this topic :) Class spell lists - Rules & Game Mechanics
That thread is very valuable to me, so thank you again SmiteMakesRight_3_5 for rising the question.
Incorrect. My answer above is the correct answer for this topic. But also, the subsequent information given by @SmiteMakesRight_3_5 is correct as well, right up until the last couple of sentences of his post:
You are on the right track here, but you are drawing the wrong conclusions. In your Cure Wounds example, the spell is added to the Warlock class list. THAT is what makes it a Warlock spell in that case. However, that does NOT cause it to no longer be a Cleric spell. There was no mention of removing the spell from the Cleric list. The spell is now both -- it's a Cleric spell and now it's also a Warlock spell. The fact that it's still a Cleric spell is mostly irrelevant for you (the Warlock) since you don't have any class Features that let you do anything with Cleric spells. But, since the spell is now ALSO a Warlock spell, you can use it.
Same story for the Bard that learns a Warlock spell. That spell becomes a Bard spell, but it's still ALSO a Warlock spell. The Bard then uses it because it is a Bard spell.
This statement: "how a spell is acquired in no uncertain terms is absolutely how you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class."
. . . is incorrect.
In 2024, the way that you determine if a spell counts as a spell of a specific class is whether or not the spell appears on the class list. That's the general rule.
However, there are certainly also many specific rules which explicitly make statements such as: "this spell counts as a Warlock spell for you". When you see a Feature like that, then such a spell does indeed count, since Features do what they say. However, the absence of such a Feature is not restrictive, like it may have been in 2014.
So, for example, the multiclass rules regarding preparing a spell by using your Wizard Feature or by preparing a spell by using your Warlock Feature no longer restricts what type of spell it is. If the spell appears on the class list, it always counts now. There may be explicit specific Features that essentially add to this list, and that's fine. But we no longer exclude spells based only on how they were acquired / prepared / cast / etc.
So, in 2024, if you have a Feature that applies to "Warlock spells" then it doesn't matter if the spell was prepared with your Wizard Feature and was cast by applying your Wizard (INT) modifier -- if that spell exists on the Warlock spell list then that spell is a Warlock spell. There might also be some explicit and specific additional reasons why that spell is a Warlock spell.
For those of us that are familiar with how things were generally interpreted under the 2014 rules, we need to brain dump all of that and really go back and read what's been written in the 2024 rules and recognize the changes that have been made.
Please reread to the 2024 section on Spellcasting under Multiclassing (link is closest to the relevant section; scroll down to Spells Prepared). You quoted it above, but let me add emphasis to some key portions.
And, in order to prepare it a spell in a slot, a class feature determines whether you can prepare it. A Class List will start as the basis (General Rule), but then it will be modified by class features (Specific Rules).
So, in my example, for the Celestial Warlock (no Cleric levels), the Cure Wounds spell is a Warlock spell and not a Cleric spell. In a multiclass scenario, it would have to be prepared in a Cleric slot to be a Cleric spell. Spells always prepared by a class feature will always be a spell of that class and only that class.
This is true in general, but not in this case.
Not really. For example, as a barbarian gnome, you know some spells thanks to the Gnomish Lineage trait. However, these spells aren't considered class spells.
I would have to see the exact wording of the Gnomish Lineage trait to properly respond to this. But I will say in general that if the trait for some reason explicitly included wording such as "This spell counts as a Wizard spell for you", then your Barbarian Gnome now knows a Wizard spell. And in addition, if that spell actually appears on the Warlock spell list, then that Barbarian Gnome now (also) knows a Warlock spell. And further, if this Barbarian Gnome then somehow gained access to the Psychic Spells feature mentioned in the original posts which begins with the text that says: "When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic . . ." then if your Barbarian Gnome casts this spell that was acquired through his Gnomish Lineage trait then he would be able to change its damage type to Psychic.
You are correct about how all of this works right up until that very last sentence. There is absolutely no rule whatsoever that determines that "Spells always prepared by a class feature will always be a spell of that class and only that class".
The rules for casting spells as a multiclass character are exactly that -- the rules for casting spells as a multiclass character. None of that determines what is a "Warlock spell".
In order to prepare and cast a spell, you must use a feature that allows you to do so. In general, a class feature will only allow you to prepare that class's spells. But that is NOT what determines which class a particular spell belongs to -- it's the other way around. The class that a spell belongs to is determined elsewhere first. THEN, the class feature may or may not be able to prepare that spell based on whether or not that spell belongs to that class.
The bit about "Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes" is not determining which class or classes that spell belongs to. It is simply defining the procedure of consistency that must be followed through to the end for a multiclass character. If a character uses a Wizard feature to prepare the spell, then the Wizard spellcaster ability (INT) will be used when the spell is cast. If instead the character uses a Warlock feature to prepare the spell, then the Warlock spellcaster ability (CHA) will be used when the spell is cast. That's it. That's all that that rule is saying. Making any additional conclusions from that rule is reading more into the text than is actually written there.
In 2024, the general rule for what actually determines if a spell is a "Warlock spell" is this:
From Character Classes --> Warlock --> Warlock Class Features --> Level 1: Pact Magic:
Minor Illusion Illusion Cantrip (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)
Speak with Animals Level 1 Divination (Bard, Druid, Ranger, Warlock)
Mending Transmutation Cantrip (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard)
Prestidigitation Transmutation Cantrip (Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)
Exactly. That wording isn't present in the trait, so the Barbarian Gnome doesn't know a class spell, just a spell they can cast.
It's the same for another trait: Elven Lineage.
What is the class list for a Wizard? The spellcasting feature tells you to use the Wizard class list.
What is the Class List of an Eldritch Knight (fighter)? The spellcasting feature tells you to use the Wizard class list.
The class lists mean nothing without the class feature making spells from the class list a class spell.
By the same token, a gnome barbarian can cast speak with animals but it's not a Druid spell and they cannot cast it from a scroll because it's not a class spell for them.
But the spell you can cast via Gnomish or Elven Lineage remain a spell on a class’s spell list appearing in parenthese after the spell’s school of magic, the Trait doesn't remove that.
They are not a class spell for you unless a class feature makes them one for you. They are on a class list, but that has no meaning until a class feature makes spells on the class list a class spell. Barbarian doesn't do that.
You seem to have accidentally cut off a large portion of the paragraph where I explained how this works. Let me re-post that for you for convenience:
I would have to see the exact wording of the Gnomish Lineage trait to properly respond to this. But I will say in general that if the trait for some reason explicitly included wording such as "This spell counts as a Wizard spell for you", then your Barbarian Gnome now knows a Wizard spell. And in addition, if that spell actually appears on the Warlock spell list, then that Barbarian Gnome now (also) knows a Warlock spell. And further, if this Barbarian Gnome then somehow gained access to the Psychic Spells feature mentioned in the original posts which begins with the text that says: "When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic . . ." then if your Barbarian Gnome casts this spell that was acquired through his Gnomish Lineage trait then he would be able to change its damage type to Psychic.
Since you mentioned the Elven Lineage trait and I can see the wording for that, we can use that as an example:
This trait provides an alternate method for learning, preparing and casting some specific spells. Using this trait to do so instead of a class feature such as Spellcasting or Pact Magic has nothing at all do to with whether or not those specific spells are Warlock spells or not. It's simply another way to cast spells which has its own rules associated with doing so. You might also gain a Feat which has its own rules for casting some specific spells as well. So what? Which class Feature, species trait or Feat is used to learn, prepare and cast a spell does not determine whether or not a spell is a Warlock spell. In 2014 such arguments had merit based on how things were worded and organized. In 2024 this has been cleaned up and clarified and the definition of a Warlock spell is now written directly into the rules without any need for further interpretation.
To finish with this example, one lineage which can be chosen is Drow. With this lineage, you gain a trait which allows you to cast the Darkness spell in a specific way as detailed in the trait's description beginning at Level 5. Darkness is a Sorcerer spell. Darkness is also a Warlock spell. Darkness is also a Wizard spell. It just is. That's how the terminology is used in 2024. If this Drow character somehow had access to the Psychic Spells feature that was mentioned in the original post which begins with the phrase "When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic", then (if the Darkness spell was a damage dealing spell) this Drow character would have the ability to change the damage type of this hypothetical damage dealing Darkness spell to Psychic without any other requirement about which class this Drow actually belongs to or by which method this Drow is choosing to cast this spell.
The Wizard spells are listed in the Wizard spell list. We know this because of this text:
There is no rules text anywhere which defines a Fighter spell -- there are none. The Fighter (including the Eldritch Knight) does not have a spell list.
This is not how it works in 2024. You are making assumptions based on how you think it works instead of actually looking at what is written.
The class lists do have meaning. They list the Warlock spells, the Wizard spells, and so on. Not because of their mere existence. But because there is a rule which clearly defines the terms Warlock spell, Wizard spell and so on as being a spell which appears on the specified list:
This is false. Speak with Animals is a Druid spell:
There is nothing in the 2024 rules that actually says any of this. If you think that this is written somewhere, feel free to quote it.
If you are a Wizard, you might have access to a class feature that allows you to cast some specific spells by following the rules and procedures that are defined in that feature. But that's not what makes a Wizard spell a Wizard spell. That's just a feature that allows a Wizard to cast some specific spells by following certain rules and procedures. That's all.
What actually makes a Wizard spell a Wizard spell is what the written rules actually say about what makes a Wizard spell and Wizard spell. And very explicitly, that rule is this:
A gnome barbarian can cast Speak with Animals, but it is not associated with a class (such as Druid) and when casting it once per day without a spell slot, it is a level 1 spell (not that it has an improved effect for a higher level slot).
A multiclassed Sorcerer/Warlock can cast their prepared Sorcerer and Warlock spells with the multiclass slots, but the spells are prepared individually as Sorcerer or Warlock spells; Charm Person prepared only as a Sorcerer Spell is not a Warlock spell for that character for that day. By the same token, a lineage spell is not prepared as any class spell.