Please reread to the 2024 section on Spellcasting under Multiclassing (link is closest to the relevant section; scroll down to Spells Prepared). You quoted it above, but let me add emphasis to some key portions.
You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
A gnome barbarian can cast Speak with Animals, but it is not associated with a class (such as Druid) and when casting it once per day without a spell slot, it is a level 1 spell (not that it has an improved effect for a higher level slot).
A multiclassed Sorcerer/Warlock can cast their prepared Sorcerer and Warlock spells with the multiclass slots, but the spells are prepared individually as Sorcerer or Warlock spells; Charm Person prepared only as a Sorcerer Spell is not a Warlock spell for that character for that day. By the same token, a lineage spell is not prepared as any class spell.
Sorry, but it simply does not work this way in 2024. This issue has been 100% clarified by the new rules. You are quoting an unrelated mechanic which makes no mention of the term "Warlock spell".
The first part that you are highlighting is just telling you which resources and features you have available to you as a multiclassed character who is attempting to prepare a spell. This has nothing to do with whether or not the spell itself is a Warlock spell. It's talking about your character's class. Each individual class that exists within your multiclassed character determines the procedure for which spells you can cast, and which feature is used to cast it as if you are a single-classed member of that class.
For example, the Cleric has a rule where he can "prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast". Then, "To start, choose four level 1 spells from the Cleric spell list". Then, "The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Cleric levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Cleric Features table." and "The chosen spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Then, an example is given: "For example, if you’re a level 3 Cleric, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of levels 1 and 2 in any combination."
So, when it comes to multiclassing, the rule that you keep quoting is simply saying that if you are a 6th Level character that is a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3, then you can only use your Cleric Spellcasting feature to prepare spells as if you were a Level 3 Cleric -- which means that your list of prepared spells can include six spells of levels 1 and 2 in any combination. Once that is done, you can then use your Wizard Spellcasting feature to prepare some more spells by following the procedures detailed in that feature as if you were a Level 3 Wizard.
That's ALL that that rule is saying. That rule is NOT saying anything whatsoever about what a "Cleric spell" is or what a "Wizard spell" is. It's just not. The words in the text that you quoted are not saying that.
As for the second portion that you've highlighted -- you forgot to highlight the whole sentence. Because the whole point of the rule saying that a prepared spell is associated with one of your classes is so that you are required to use that class's spellcasting ability when you cast that spell. That's ALL that that rule is saying.
So, going back to our example above. We can use our Cleric spellcasting feature to prepare some spells. We can then use our Wizard spellcasting feature to prepare some other spells. Now, once that is done, we have to keep track of which spells were prepared with which feature. Because that last rule says that the spells that were prepared with our Cleric spellcasting feature will use our Cleric spellcasting ability when we cast them and the spells that were prepared with our Wizard spellcasting feature will use our Wizard spellcasting ability when we cast those. NONE of that defines what is a Cleric spell and what is a Wizard spell.
Interestingly, the portion of the Cleric Spellcasting feature which discusses the procedure for changing preparing spells during a Long Rest says this:
"Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change your list of prepared spells, replacing any of the spells there with other Cleric spells for which you have spell slots."
But wait! What could this possibly mean!? Replace my list of prepared spells with what exactly? What are my options? Which spells are available to choose from to be added to my list of prepared spells? It turns out that Clerics (unlike Wizards) are able to choose from ALL of the "Cleric Spells".
But what does "Cleric Spells" actually mean? Which spells are those? Is this defined somewhere?
Fortunately, in 2024, the answer is yes. This term has an exact definition that is clearly written and totally free of any ambiguity. It's really not debatable. This definition is found at the beginning of the spellcasting feature for the Cleric:
See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description.
You're conflating two separate concepts: Cleric spells do appear on the Cleric Spell List, but it only becomes a Cleric spell for the purposes of a feature that checks for class spells when you've prepared that spell using a feature of the appropriate class. We know this because things like domain spells prepare spells that don't appear on the class list, but still make those spells qualify as spells of the class that grants the feature. This is not a complicated concept to wrap your head around, regardless of attempts to obfuscate by nitpicking choice bits of text; if you build a dual caster multiclass with a non-class feature that preps additional spells using this site's creator you'll see exactly how this all works.
@up2ng, sorry, but it's really hard to follow your replies. They’re very complicated, with a ton of text, and confusing for something that isn't so complicated in the books.
For me, at least, the rules seem clear, and they’re as @The_Ace_of_Rogues or @SmiteMakesRight_3_5 have explained to you.
@up2ng, sorry, but it's really hard to follow your replies. They’re very complicated, with a ton of text, and confusing for something that isn't so complicated in the books.
For me, at least, the rules seem clear, and they’re as @The_Ace_of_Rogues or @SmiteMakesRight_3_5 have explained to you.
Yes, sometimes a lot of words are used to describe a concept. However, if you just slow down and read through my posts sentence by sentence and follow the logic of what is written and see how the quoted text supports my conclusions then you will realize that my posts are extremely clear and informative. If there is something specific that you find confusing, then I can try to clarify it. But I do encourage you to just slowly and carefully reread my post if you want to gain a better understanding of the topic.
You're conflating two separate concepts: Cleric spells do appear on the Cleric Spell List, but it only becomes a Cleric spell for the purposes of a feature that checks for class spells when you've prepared that spell using a feature of the appropriate class. We know this because things like domain spells prepare spells that don't appear on the class list, but still make those spells qualify as spells of the class that grants the feature. This is not a complicated concept to wrap your head around, regardless of attempts to obfuscate by nitpicking choice bits of text; if you build a dual caster multiclass with a non-class feature that preps additional spells using this site's creator you'll see exactly how this all works.
I am not the one conflating. I have actually gone through quite a lot of trouble to de-conflate these separate concepts, because they are indeed separate.
Most of what you've just described above is just not what's written in the rules.
The biggest thing that is happening here in this thread is that a lot of people are remembering back to what the common interpretation was in 2014, and they are just assuming that it still works that way. But this has now been clarified by the 2024 rules, and the clarification does not match with how many of us were interpreting this previously. It is now clear that the term "Warlock Spell" simply refers to a spell that appears on the Warlock Spell List by default. This is then modified by additional game features when they very explicitly use language such as "this spell counts as a Warlock Spell for you". That's it. Those are what Warlock Spells are as defined by the game in 2024. How you learn a spell and how you choose to prepare it or cast it has nothing at all to do with whether or not that spell is a Warlock spell. The authors have actually gone through quite a bit of effort to clarify this since it was a common topic of discussion which resulted in multiple valid interpretations back in 2014
In 2014, we had this situation:
-- "you can cast cleric spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the cleric spell list." This wording didn't clearly define a cleric spell as a spell that is on the cleric spell list. It was one possible interpretation, but there was a lot of ambiguity. Then, we had this language from within the rules for a cleric that is preparing spells:
-- "The Cleric table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your cleric spells of 1st level and higher." So, what exactly was meant by "your cleric spells"? Nothing really explicitly defined this. Since a Cleric automatically knows all spells that are on the cleric spell list (unlike how it works for a Wizard), in context it seemed like the above statement must instead be referring to spells that the cleric has prepared, not just spells that he knows. That's not actually written anywhere, but it was reasonable logic to use. Also in the cleric's rules for preparing spells we had:
-- "Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation." So now there was the whole discussion that there might be some subtle difference between "your Cleric Spells" and just "Cleric Spells". There were whole long threads which discussed all of this. We then had these rules for the spellcasting ability:
-- "Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity. You use your Wisdom whenever a cleric spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a cleric spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one." For the rules for the spellcasting focus we had this:
-- "You can use a holy symbol (see chapter 5, “Equipment”) as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells". And lastly, the rules for Ritual casting:
-- "You can cast a cleric spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell prepared." In this case, the concept of a cleric spell was something separate from a spell that a cleric has prepared since they had to explicitly clarify that this rule applies only if you have the spell prepared. This further supports the idea that there might have been some difference between "cleric spells" and "your cleric spells" in 2014.
Notice that nothing in any of these 2014 rules above ever actually came out and defined what a "cleric spell" actually is, or what is actually meant by "your cleric spell". All of this had to be inferred by the DM in context, and the community sort of landed on this idea that in order for a spell to be a cleric spell it must have been prepared with a cleric feature and might be subsequently cast with a cleric feature. Nothing ever actually said that. This was all a bunch of guesswork.
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In 2024, the guesswork is gone. The term has a definition that has been directly written into the game. Most of the above language has been cleaned up substantially, reorganized, made more consistent and is much clearer than it was before. This was a deliberate effort by the authors to put this debate to bed so that they could publish features such as Psychic Spells that contain language such as "When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage . . ." and all players and DMs will know exactly what qualifies as a "Warlock spell" in features such as this because that term now has an exact definition that was written directly into the game.
Now, when we look at the Cleric Spellcasting feature in 2024, we have this situation:
-- "See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description." This defines the term "Cleric spells". Now, whenever this term is used throughout the rest of this feature and well as whenever this term is used in any other species trait, class feature or Feat, we simply refer back to this definition to know exactly what qualifies as a "Cleric spell". No guesswork. It's well defined, and it's not ambiguous.
-- If you go through all of the rules for Cantrips and for Spell Slots and for Preparing Spells of Level 1+ within the Cleric's Spellcasting feature, the terms "Cleric Spell" and "your Cleric Spell" are NEVER used in 2024! Compare that to the obvious mess above in the 2014 rules. This change is deliberate! They have gone out of their way to improve this wording. Instead, these rules use phrases such as "the Cleric spell list" and "your level 1+ spells" and "your list of prepared spells". But eventually, we do finally get to a rule which is deliberately explicit about a spell counting as a "Cleric Spell":
-- "If another Cleric feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Cleric spells for you." This is explicitly telling us that these particular spells count as Cleric spells for you. Next, we have a series of rules which refer to the term "Cleric spells". Since this term has an exact definition in 2024, we now know exactly what these rules are talking about when they use this term:
-- "Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change your list of prepared spells, replacing any of the spells there with other Cleric spells for which you have spell slots." and "Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your Cleric spells." and "You can use a Holy Symbol as a Spellcasting Focus for your Cleric spells"
Because the term is defined in 2024, we now know that "your Cleric spells" just refers to "Cleric spells" that you happen to have prepared and/or that you happen to be casting. It's not the other way around. The preparation and/or casting does NOT make something a Cleric spell. The Cleric spells are what they are. If you have one of these prepared, then that is one of your Cleric Spells.
But, depending on the spell, one of your Cleric Spells might also be one of your Druid Spells, even if you are just a single-classed Cleric. Because the spells are what they are. The game now defines it that way. So, if you have used your Cleric Spellcasting feature to prepare a bunch of your Cleric Spells and you decide to cast one of those spells with your Cleric Spellcasting feature . . . if you also have some sort of Feat or other game feature that triggers "when you cast a Druid spell", then this will trigger if indeed that Cleric spell that you cast is also a Druid spell. That's how it works now.
The class feature will generally specify that you have to learn / prepare / cast spells of that class. So, a Cleric's Spellcasting feature will have a bunch of rules that makes it so that it only works for Cleric spells. The spell is what it is. Whether or not the spell counts as a Cleric spell is determined first. Then, if it qualifies, then you can use your Cleric Spellcasting feature to learn / prepare / cast that spell. It's not the other way around. The use of the feature does NOT make something a certain type of spell. It's the reverse. You are generally restricted to only dealing with a certain type of spell in order to use that feature in the first place.
The multiclass spellcasting rules just follow that same design. You use the class features of each of your classes as if you were a single-classed character of that class. The spells which qualify to be used by those features will be defined by / restricted by that feature -- but the feature does not define which type of spell it is.
The new wording of the 2024 rules makes all of this clear.
Now, when we look at the Cleric Spellcasting feature in 2024, we have this situation:
-- "See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description." This defines the term "Cleric spells". Now, whenever this term is used throughout the rest of this feature and well as whenever this term is used in any other species trait, class feature or Feat, we simply refer back to this definition to know exactly what qualifies as a "Cleric spell". No guesswork. It's well defined, and it's not ambiguous.
Yes, you have a Class Feature that defines [Class] spells. In the case of Cleric spells, the class feature specifies that the base selection of Class spells, for members of that class, are found on the Cleric spell list, but if you don't have that class feature, they are not Cleric spells for you because you do not have a class feature that defines them as such. It's like ASI/feats, you don't get them at 4th Character Level, you get them at 4th Class Level, because they are a class feature.
Because the term is defined in 2024, we now know that "your Cleric spells" just refers to "Cleric spells" that you happen to have prepared and/or that you happen to be casting. It's not the other way around. The preparation and/or casting does NOT make something a Cleric spell. The Cleric spells are what they are. If you have one of these prepared, then that is one of your Cleric Spells.
Please reread to the 2024 section on Spellcasting under Multiclassing (link is closest to the relevant section; scroll down to Spells Prepared). You quoted it above, but let me add emphasis to some key portions.
You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
Now, when we look at the Cleric Spellcasting feature in 2024, we have this situation:
-- "See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description." This defines the term "Cleric spells". Now, whenever this term is used throughout the rest of this feature and well as whenever this term is used in any other species trait, class feature or Feat, we simply refer back to this definition to know exactly what qualifies as a "Cleric spell". No guesswork. It's well defined, and it's not ambiguous.
Yes, you have a Class Feature that defines [Class] spells. In the case of Cleric spells, the class feature specifies that the base selection of Class spells, for members of that class, are found on the Cleric spell list, but if you don't have that class feature, they are not Cleric spells for you because you do not have a class feature that defines them as such. It's like ASI/feats, you don't get them at 4th Character Level, you get them at 4th Class Level, because they are a class feature.
No. That's not how it works. The Class spell list is written within the class information, but it's not within the class features for the class -- it is listed in its own section. This says something about how the class works its magic, but the fact that a certain spell is a [Class] spell is not a feature of that class. When the Spellcasting feature for the class is introduced, it begins by mentioning what the term [class] spell means and where those spells can be found so that the rest of the Feature makes sense when it goes on to detail the rules for Cantrips and for Preparing Spells and for Casting Spells and so on when using that class Feature to do so. The class feature is not making a spell a [Class] spell. It is just telling you what a [Class] spell is and where they are listed for future reference.
Also, the ASI Feat example is incorrect. The Feat itself has no such restriction. The only prerequisite listed for obtaining the Feat is "Level 4+". This is not referring to a class level. It refers to the Character Level. The reason why you typically get this Feat at the 4th class level is because that's typically how you gain access to being able to acquire a Feat in the first place. Your class feature gives you that access and allows you to acquire a Feat at that time. But if there was some other method available, then you could gain the ASI Feat at some other time. For example, suppose you acquired a single use consumable magic item which, when used, allowed you to gain a Feat. By using that method, you could gain this ASI Feat at some other moment in time besides the moment that you gain the 4th class level. But using this alternate method of acquiring the Feat would NOT change anything about the Feat itself or its listed prerequisite.
I don't know if there are still sidebars in the PHB or the DMG which discuss the concept of the Weave and how the people of the universe can interact with that Weave since I do not currently have a copy of those books -- the 2024 Free Rules do not have this information so I cannot directly quote it.
But the basic design that is going on here is that each class has its own method for how it interacts with the Weave in order to cast spells:
For the Bard: "You have learned to cast spells through your bardic arts." For the Cleric: "You have learned to cast spells through prayer and meditation." For the Druid: "You have learned to cast spells through studying the mystical forces of nature." For the Paladin: "You have learned to cast spells through prayer and meditation." (apparently in a slightly different way than how the Cleric does it, but with a lot of overlap.) For the Ranger: "You have learned to channel the magical essence of nature to cast spells." For the Sorcerer: "Drawing from your innate magic, you can cast spells." For the Warlock: "Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear—but its boon to you is concrete: the ability to cast spells." For the Wizard: "As a student of arcane magic, you have learned to cast spells."
These are the various unique methodologies by which the people of the universe have learned to interact with the Weave in order to cast the various spells which exist.
Basically, the spells are what they are within the Weave, and they each present an interface to the world by which to access them. You could think of it like the spell exists in a locked box within the Weave and that box might have a red button or an orange button or a yellow button and so on. If the box has only a red button, then only people that know how to press a red button will be able to access that spell. But if that box has a red button and an orange button and a yellow button, then the people who know how to press red buttons will have access to it and also the people who know how to press orange buttons will have access to it and also the people who know how to press yellow buttons will have access to it.
Using the methodology of pressing a red button to access a particular spell does not make that spell a spell which has a red button and only a red button on its box. And if we did not use any of these methodologies (for example, when casting a species trait spell or a Feat spell), that does NOT mean that that spell now somehow does not have any buttons. All of those buttons are still there, as well as some other interface which was used by that trait or that Feat to access that spell.
Continuing with this analogy, when it comes to the rules for multiclassing, the rules recognize that you might now have more than one feature for accessing spells. One of your classes might allow you to press red buttons and your other class might allow you to press orange buttons. The multiclass rules are simply saying that if you choose to press the red button to prepare a spell, then when you eventually cast that spell later on you must use the spellcasting ability modifier that is associated with pressing red buttons. That's ALL that it says. If that spell had a red button and an orange button, then it still has a red button and an orange button. The spell is what it is. You are merely accessing it through the Weave by using a particular procedure that is specified by your class feature.
So, if you prepare and cast that spell by pressing the red button and you also have another feature which automatically triggers "when you cast a spell that has an orange button", then that feature successfully triggers.
In summary, in 2024, any interpretation that assumes that a spell is a Warlock spell if and only if that spell was prepared by using a Warlock spell feature is incorrect because there is absolutely no text anywhere in the rules which says that. On the other hand, there IS text in the rules which says that a Warlock spell is a spell which appears on the Warlock spell list. So, that's what a Warlock Spell is, because that's what the rules say that it is.
Now, when we look at the Cleric Spellcasting feature in 2024, we have this situation:
-- "See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description." This defines the term "Cleric spells". Now, whenever this term is used throughout the rest of this feature and well as whenever this term is used in any other species trait, class feature or Feat, we simply refer back to this definition to know exactly what qualifies as a "Cleric spell". No guesswork. It's well defined, and it's not ambiguous.
Yes, you have a Class Feature that defines [Class] spells. In the case of Cleric spells, the class feature specifies that the base selection of Class spells, for members of that class, are found on the Cleric spell list, but if you don't have that class feature, they are not Cleric spells for you because you do not have a class feature that defines them as such. It's like ASI/feats, you don't get them at 4th Character Level, you get them at 4th Class Level, because they are a class feature.
No. That's not how it works. The Class spell list is written within the class information, but it's not within the class features for the class -- it is listed in its own section. This says something about how the class works its magic, but the fact that a certain spell is a [Class] spell is not a feature of that class.
That is absolutely how it works because you don't know what spell list to use for your classes without the class features, starting with Spellcasting or Pact Magic. Without Spellcasting or Pact Magic, you have no class spells.
I'm doing a bard and warlock multiclass, I know that you can use the bard's spellslots to cast the spells you've prepared with your warlock class, and pacts slots can be used to cast the bard's prepared spells, and no multiclass spellslots tables are needed.
However, with "Psychic Spells" (When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage, you can change its damage type to Psychic. In addition, when you cast a Warlock spell that is an Enchantment or Illusion, you can do so without Verbal or Somatic components), what is exactly considered a Warlock spell?
Is it only the prepared spells on the warlock side? Or is it all available spells on the Warlock Spells list (so I can use the Bard's spellslots and it'd still work)? Or is it only the spells cast through pact slots (even the Bard's prepared spells)? And what about cantrips such as Minor Illusion, it's in both their spell list table, but if I have the cantrip through the bard and not the warlock, can I still use Psychic Spells with it?
Putting aside the rules question which has been answered pretty thoroughly aside from one stubborn tr.... individual, DDB should tell you on your character sheet which spells are Warlock spells (as in, acquired via Warlock class features), Bard spells (acquired via Bard class features) or other (generally acquired via feats or species traits, but also sometimes from things like magic items)
If you look on your Spells list, under the name of each spell it will tell you the source of that spell. Only the ones that say 'Warlock' should be eligible for Psychic Spells
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Putting aside the rules question which has been answered pretty thoroughly aside from one stubborn tr.... individual,
It's not actually clear who you are referring to with this comment. However, instead of calling people names, which is a clear and obvious Forum Rules violation, it would probably be more productive for you to actually just provide your interpretation of the topic that was asked about in the original post, use quotes from the actual written rules to support your position, and then explain how you are coming to your conclusion.
Now, when we look at the Cleric Spellcasting feature in 2024, we have this situation:
-- "See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description." This defines the term "Cleric spells". Now, whenever this term is used throughout the rest of this feature and well as whenever this term is used in any other species trait, class feature or Feat, we simply refer back to this definition to know exactly what qualifies as a "Cleric spell". No guesswork. It's well defined, and it's not ambiguous.
Yes, you have a Class Feature that defines [Class] spells. In the case of Cleric spells, the class feature specifies that the base selection of Class spells, for members of that class, are found on the Cleric spell list, but if you don't have that class feature, they are not Cleric spells for you because you do not have a class feature that defines them as such. It's like ASI/feats, you don't get them at 4th Character Level, you get them at 4th Class Level, because they are a class feature.
No. That's not how it works. The Class spell list is written within the class information, but it's not within the class features for the class -- it is listed in its own section. This says something about how the class works its magic, but the fact that a certain spell is a [Class] spell is not a feature of that class.
That is absolutely how it works because you don't know what spell list to use for your classes without the class features, starting with Spellcasting or Pact Magic. Without Spellcasting or Pact Magic, you have no class spells.
While this is true, none of this determines what the term "Warlock Spell" means in the game. Yes, it's true that a character generally won't necessarily know how to access Warlock spells until he takes a Level in the Warlock class, which gives him access to the Pact Magic feature which now grants the Warlock character access to those spells. So what? That does not mean that there is no such thing as a Warlock spell in the universe if my character doesn't belong to the Warlock class. There is no rules text which supports that idea.
The rules tell you what the term "Warlock spell" means and which spells qualify by default, and then the Pact Magic feature goes on to provide a bunch of specific rules for how to use the general rules of spellcasting with Warlock spells:
"The information below details how you use those rules [ (meaning, the general rules for spellcasting) ] with Warlock spells".
DDB should tell you on your character sheet which spells are Warlock spells (as in, acquired via Warlock class features), Bard spells (acquired via Bard class features) or other (generally acquired via feats or species traits, but also sometimes from things like magic items)
If you look on your Spells list, under the name of each spell it will tell you the source of that spell. Only the ones that say 'Warlock' should be eligible for Psychic Spells
First of all, it's well documented that the functionality of DDB does not always perfectly align with the rules as written, especially since the transition to the 2024 rules while also attempting to maintain some backward compatability.
However, in this case, you are simply misinterpreting the information that it's providing. When you say ". . . which spells are Warlock spells (as in, acquired via Warlock class feature)", you are making an assumption. That assumption is not backed up by the rules.
If the online tool is providing a list of your available prepared spells and it puts the word "(Warlock)" in parentheses next to the name of the spell, that is NOT saying that that spell is a "Warlock Spell". It is just saying that the spell was prepared with the Warlock's class feature. It's necessary to keep track of this because that prepared spell can only be cast by using that same feature:
"You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature."
This gives you information about which rules will be used when casting that spell and which resources will be required to do so. For example, if this same spell was prepared through the use of a Feat, that Feat might specify that the spell can be cast without using a spell slot. The note about which method was used to prepare this spell is important because if you don't currently have any available spell slots, this will help you determine whether or not you can currently cast this spell with your current available resources.
I'm not super familiar with that tool and how it's implemented and whether or not that implementation has been updated since the release of the 2024 rules. If it does not function correctly, that's not a problem with the rules, it's a problem with the tool.
The 2024 rules tell us that the term "Warlock spell" refers to a spell that exists on the Warlock Spell list by default, and this term also accurately refers to any spell where there has been an explicit statement such as "this spell counts as a Warlock spell for you". So, when you see this term used in a feature that says something like "When you cast a Warlock spell, you can . . ." that's what the term is referring to. The method by which the spell was prepared does not determine whether or not a spell qualifies as being a member of this category -- there is absolutely no rules support for that interpretation in 2024.
Dndbeyond is working as intended. No known issues on this topic are cataloged by the developers of the site. Each spell you prepare is associated with the class it is prepared through, as the rules say, or the feature itself if the feature providing it does not indicate it counts as a class spell. Each spell is also only offered with a single spell casting stat associated with the method the spell was learned. No Wisdom casting your sorcerer spells just because they happen to appear on the cleric list also.
Failure to interpret the rules like the people that affect this implementation (the rules authors and the site builders) does not constitute a bug; it constitutes an opinion. Everyone is free to an opinion, but sometimes opinions are incorrect. Heck, you probably think this one is incorrect.
Remember, the statement that a particular user is saying they are "only" using "objective fact" is also an opinion, which, again, can be objectively incorrect. Although there may be additional posts in this thread, remember that the rules are all you really need to consider when making the decision for your table -- and maybe their implementation in Dndbeyond. Anything any users say here is just opinion.
If you look on your Spells list, under the name of each spell it will tell you the source of that spell. Only the ones that say 'Warlock' should be eligible for Psychic Spells
Just realized this isn't quite accurate. Any spells you acquire through invocations will be labeled as 'Eldritch Invocation" and not 'Warlock' on DDB (cantrips through Pact of the Tome, disguise self through Mask of Many Faces, etc.), but Psychic Spells should still apply
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Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Each spell you prepare is associated with the class it is prepared through, as the rules say, or the feature itself if the feature providing it does not indicate it counts as a class spell. Each spell is also only offered with a single spell casting stat associated with the method the spell was learned. No Wisdom casting your sorcerer spells just because they happen to appear on the cleric list also.
Yes, this is all correct. These are the rules for multiclassing. And yet, none of that has anything to do with what the term "Warlock Spell" means. If you are making a claim that it does, then you are making an assumption -- possibly influenced by your experience with playing under the 2014 ruleset. But what is actually happening is that you are attempting to add something to the rules that is not actually written there.
For reference, here is the rule that you are referring to:
From Creating a Character --> Multiclassing --> Class Features --> Spellcasting:
Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below.
. . .
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
First of all, keep in mind where this rule is located (Creating a Character --> Multiclassing --> Class Features --> Spellcasting).
This is a rule that ONLY applies to multiclass characters. It tells us how to apply class features to the character while leveling up a multiclass character. Specifically, this rule ONLY applies to characters that have acquired multiple instances of the "Spellcasting" class feature.
An important note about that -- this rule does NOT even apply to the Pact Magic feature at all. It only applies to instances of the Spellcasting feature when a character has more than one of those.
For those characters that DO have more than one instance of the Spellcasting feature, this rule is just saying that when you do prepare a spell by using one of your Spellcasting features, you make a note of which class this feature belongs to, and you associate that prepared spell with that class. The only reason why you keep track of this is because later on when you cast this spell you are required to use the appropriate spellcasting ability to cast it because that spell was prepared in a certain way. None of this has anything to do with what a "Warlock spell" is -- it's just a rule that requires you to be consistent between how you prepare the spell and how you cast the spell IF you used a Spellcasting feature to prepare that spell.
If you want to know what a Warlock spell is, you have to go check out the information that's provided that is associated with that class. Not as a class feature which would require levels in that class to use, but just as information that is associated with that class -- the Class lists are in their own sections of the book within the information for that class that is separate from the class features.
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Just as an aside, I vaguely remember that there was an old tweet from JC on this subject that basically said that the term "Warlock spell" just means a spell that exists on the Warlock Spell list. Unfortunately, I do not keep track of his tweets since I don't put much stock in them for RAW discussions so I'm unable to provide a quote of it here. Maybe someone else will find it. Although he often gets the RAW incorrect in such tweets, they are often still valuable in gaining some insight into the RAI and in the thought processes behind the design concepts of some game mechanics.
IMO any spell on your warlock spell list including your sub class, any spell gained through invocations, any spell gained through a feature that says it is added to your spell list.
I'm not sure about the invocations that give you a unlimited casting of a spell as it feels more like a power that they were too lazy to come up with a unique effect and instead just said cast this similar spell at will. But pact of the tome, if you use any of the invocations that let you cast one with your spell slot or once per long rest etc sure.
[...] Just as an aside, I vaguely remember that there was an old tweet from JC on this subject that basically said that the term "Warlock spell" just means a spell that exists on the Warlock Spell list. Unfortunately, I do not keep track of his tweets since I don't put much stock in them for RAW discussions so I'm unable to provide a quote of it here. Maybe someone else will find it. Although he often gets the RAW incorrect in such tweets, they are often still valuable in gaining some insight into the RAI and in the thought processes behind the design concepts of some game mechanics.
If you're referring to the following tweets, they actually don't share the same opinion as you. On the contrary, the Dev shares the same opinion as most of us here:
@leongissac1 How do the elven racial magic feats (Drow High Magic, Fey Teleportation and Wood Elf Magic) in Xanathar's interact with spell slots? They say that you know the spells and can cast them without expending spell slots, so can you use spell slots with them? @armando_doval You have to follow your class's Spellcasting (or Pact Magic) rules to cast a spell using spell slots (e.g. A wizard has to prepare the spell from their spellbook.) See "Magic Initiate" in Sage Advice Compendium https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-october-2017 [...] I understand the wording is different. The part that's relevant is that you have to follow your class's spellcasting rules. Wood Elf Magic, etc don't say you learn the spell or that it counts as a spell for you. If they didn't add "in this way" to those feats it'd sound like you can't cast them at all after using the feat. They're distinguishing the 1 use you get from the feat from other ways you might have to cast the spell. @JeremyECrawford Your interpretation is 100 percent correct, @armando_doval
@albigatin do the spells known by a class include any racial spells they may know? so bards start off with 2 cantrips, would a tiefling's thaumaturgy count as one of them? @JeremyECrawford A class's spells are on that class's spell list. Sometimes you'll get a feature that adds spells to that list—features like the bard's Magical Secrets. Racial traits aren't added to your class's list unless your trait says otherwise.
[...] Just as an aside, I vaguely remember that there was an old tweet from JC on this subject that basically said that the term "Warlock spell" just means a spell that exists on the Warlock Spell list. Unfortunately, I do not keep track of his tweets since I don't put much stock in them for RAW discussions so I'm unable to provide a quote of it here. Maybe someone else will find it. Although he often gets the RAW incorrect in such tweets, they are often still valuable in gaining some insight into the RAI and in the thought processes behind the design concepts of some game mechanics.
If you're referring to the following tweets, they actually don't share the same opinion as you. On the contrary, the Dev shares the same opinion as most of us here:
@leongissac1 How do the elven racial magic feats (Drow High Magic, Fey Teleportation and Wood Elf Magic) in Xanathar's interact with spell slots? They say that you know the spells and can cast them without expending spell slots, so can you use spell slots with them? @armando_doval You have to follow your class's Spellcasting (or Pact Magic) rules to cast a spell using spell slots (e.g. A wizard has to prepare the spell from their spellbook.) See "Magic Initiate" in Sage Advice Compendium https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-october-2017 [...] I understand the wording is different. The part that's relevant is that you have to follow your class's spellcasting rules. Wood Elf Magic, etc don't say you learn the spell or that it counts as a spell for you. If they didn't add "in this way" to those feats it'd sound like you can't cast them at all after using the feat. They're distinguishing the 1 use you get from the feat from other ways you might have to cast the spell. @JeremyECrawford Your interpretation is 100 percent correct, @armando_doval
@albigatin do the spells known by a class include any racial spells they may know? so bards start off with 2 cantrips, would a tiefling's thaumaturgy count as one of them? @JeremyECrawford A class's spells are on that class's spell list. Sometimes you'll get a feature that adds spells to that list—features like the bard's Magical Secrets. Racial traits aren't added to your class's list unless your trait says otherwise.
Wait, what? What are you talking about? This aligns pretty much exactly with what I've been saying. When you use a trait or feat or class feature for spellcasting, then you follow the rules that are given in that trait or feat or class feature. That's just the basics of how the game works. Nothing at all to do with what the term "Warlock spell" means, but it's good to know how these mechanics function nonetheless.
Then, in his last answer, JC says exactly what I've been saying: "A class's spells are on that class's spell list." Yes, that's correct! That's what the term "Warlock spell" means! By default, that term refers to spells that are on the Warlock spell list. In addition to the default criteria, a spell also counts if the trait or feat or feature explicitly says that it counts or if it explicitly says that it is added to that class's spell list. Just like JC says, if the spell is not already on that list, a racial trait doesn't add that spell to the list unless it explicitly says otherwise.
[...] Just as an aside, I vaguely remember that there was an old tweet from JC on this subject that basically said that the term "Warlock spell" just means a spell that exists on the Warlock Spell list. Unfortunately, I do not keep track of his tweets since I don't put much stock in them for RAW discussions so I'm unable to provide a quote of it here. Maybe someone else will find it. Although he often gets the RAW incorrect in such tweets, they are often still valuable in gaining some insight into the RAI and in the thought processes behind the design concepts of some game mechanics.
If you're referring to the following tweets, they actually don't share the same opinion as you. On the contrary, the Dev shares the same opinion as most of us here:
@leongissac1 How do the elven racial magic feats (Drow High Magic, Fey Teleportation and Wood Elf Magic) in Xanathar's interact with spell slots? They say that you know the spells and can cast them without expending spell slots, so can you use spell slots with them? @armando_doval You have to follow your class's Spellcasting (or Pact Magic) rules to cast a spell using spell slots (e.g. A wizard has to prepare the spell from their spellbook.) See "Magic Initiate" in Sage Advice Compendium https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/rules-answers-october-2017 [...] I understand the wording is different. The part that's relevant is that you have to follow your class's spellcasting rules. Wood Elf Magic, etc don't say you learn the spell or that it counts as a spell for you. If they didn't add "in this way" to those feats it'd sound like you can't cast them at all after using the feat. They're distinguishing the 1 use you get from the feat from other ways you might have to cast the spell. @JeremyECrawford Your interpretation is 100 percent correct, @armando_doval
@albigatin do the spells known by a class include any racial spells they may know? so bards start off with 2 cantrips, would a tiefling's thaumaturgy count as one of them? @JeremyECrawford A class's spells are on that class's spell list. Sometimes you'll get a feature that adds spells to that list—features like the bard's Magical Secrets. Racial traits aren't added to your class's list unless your trait says otherwise.
Wait, what? What are you talking about? [...]
I'm talking about two things confirmed by the Dev:
Your interpretation is 100 percent correct, @armando_doval: "Wood Elf Magic, etc don't say that it counts as a spell for you.", and "They're distinguishing the 1 use you get from the feat from other ways you might have to cast the spell."
Racial traits aren't added to your class's list unless your trait says otherwise.
I'm talking about two things confirmed by the Dev:
Your interpretation is 100 percent correct, @armando_doval: "Wood Elf Magic, etc don't say that it counts as a spell for you.", and "They're distinguishing the 1 use you get from the feat from other ways you might have to cast the spell."
Racial traits aren't added to your class's list unless your trait says otherwise.
Right. I'm not sure why you think that the first bullet point has anything to do with what the term "Warlock spell" means in the game. The second bullet point is just a true statement -- I'm not sure how that refutes anything that I've said since I agree with the statement.
There still seems to be some confusion here so I'll try to go into a bit more detail to unravel all of this. I know that some people don't like longer posts but sometimes it's necessary.
The first tweet that you mentioned was asking a different question. That question was about whether or not a spell that you can cast with a Feat without using spell slots could also be cast with your spell slots. That's a reasonable question since the wording makes it seem like this is just another option that you have -- to cast the spell without spell slots. But the answer correctly explains that what is actually happening is that you now have two totally different game features that allow you to cast a spell in a certain way. When you use one feature, you follow the rules for that feature. When you use the other feature, you follow the rules for that feature.
Now, the way that he explained this (he made it unnecessarily complicated) was to link to a Sage Advice answer that was asking about the Magic Initiate feat, which actually was a slightly different question (or rather, that particular Feat works a little differently than the Feat that was being asked about). For reference, the 2014 Magic Initiate Feat worked like this (paraphrased):
"Choose a class: Bard, Cleric, etc. . . . choose one 1st-level spell from that class's list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Use the correct spellcasting ability when you use this method to cast this spell."
The Sage Advice answer correctly explains that for this particular Feat, because of how it is worded, it is possible to use your spell slots to cast this spell if the spell came from the same list that your Spellcasting feature is able to cast. But you would be doing this by using the Spellcasting feature to cast the spell, not the Feat -- which is not really what the Sage Advice question was asking, and it certainly wasn't what the above tweet was asking, but that's the general explanation of when and how you can use your spell slots.
For example, a Sorcerer knows SOME Sorcerer spells (spells from the Sorcerer spell list). He is able to cast spells that he knows. Therefore, if he learns a Sorcerer spell from the Magic Initiate feat, he can just choose to use his spell slots to cast that spell (by using the Sorcerer Spellcasting feature to do so, not the Feat).
Next, a Cleric knows ALL Cleric spells (spells from the Cleric spell list). But he must prepare a list of spells that are available to cast by using the Cleric Spellcasting feature to do that. Learning a spell from the Magic Initiate feat is sort of a waste for the Cleric since he already knows all of the Cleric spells. But it would grant the cleric the ability to cast that spell without using a spell slot (by using the Feat to cast it). If he wanted to use a spell slot to cast it instead, he would just prepare it as normal and as he was already able to do before he acquired the Feat by using the Cleric Spellcasting feature to do that and then he could use the Cleric Spellcasting feature to cast that spell with a spell slot.
Lastly, a Wizard knows SOME of the Wizard spells (spells from the Wizard spell list) which are recorded in the spellbook. From this, he must prepare an even smaller list of spells that are available to cast by using the Wizard Spellcasting feature to do that. If he learns a Wizard spell from the Magic Initiate feat and also chooses to add this spell to his spellbook by using the Wizard Spellcasting feature to do so, he could then prepare that spell by using the Wizard Spellcasting feature to do that and then he would be able to use the Wizard Spellcasting feature to cast that spell with a spell slot.
Now, going back to the tweet. He explains that the wording for the Wood Elf Magic feat has different wording, so all of that explanation about how you can use the Spellcasting feature to cast the Feat's spell is irrelevant and that the relevant part is really just the explanation that these are two totally separate methodologies for casting a spell and each of them has their own rules and we must follow the rules for the method that we are using.
For reference, the Wood Elf Magic feat has this wording:
"You also learn the Longstrider and Pass Without Trace spells, each of which you can cast once without expending a spell slot."
Notice that you DO learn these spells, so that part of the tweet is wrong. (It's weird for him to get a detail like this wrong so I sort of wonder if this Feat was updated via errata after this tweet was published.)
Next, he points out that these Feats "don't say that it counts as a spell for you". This seems like some sort of a typo to me since the actual idea that a spell doesn't count as a spell is nonsensical. What he is probably pointing out is that the Feat does not say that the spell is "always prepared" like some features do say.
However, his conclusion that "They're distinguishing the 1 use you get from the feat from other ways you might have to cast the spell" is correct. Indeed, these are two different and separate game features that each provide its own method for casting this spell and each provides its own rules for doing so and you typically have to choose which one you are using when you cast a spell.
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So, here's the thing . . . NONE of that (I repeat, absolutely NONE of that) dictates what a "Warlock spell" is or what that term means in this game. That first tweet is totally irrelevant to the original question posed in this thread.
However, the second tweet shows Jeremy Crawford confirming what the term "Warlock spell" means in this game: "A class's spells are on that class's spell list."
So, for example, the Wood Elf Magic feat causes the character to learn the Longstrider spell. In 2014, Longstrider appeared on the Bard spell list, the Druid spell list, the Ranger spell list and the Wizard spell list. This remains true in 2024. This means that when this Feat is acquired which causes this spell to be learned, the character learned a spell that is a "Bard spell" and is also a "Druid spell" and is also a "Ranger spell" and is also a "Wizard spell".
Now, suppose the character is a Cleric. The above remains true when the Longstrider spell is learned. However, as Jeremy Crawford points out: "Racial traits aren't added to your class's list unless your trait says otherwise." This racial trait does NOT say otherwise. Therefore, this character did NOT learn a "Cleric spell" when he learned Longstrider.
However (and this is the important part for the purposes of the original thread question), IF for some reason this Cleric character possesses some sort of trait or feat or feature that uses the phrase "When you cast a Wizard spell . . . [something happens]", then this DOES trigger when this character casts the Longstrider spell.
In addition, if this character was actually a Wizard instead, but he decided to cast the Longstrider spell without using a spell slot by using the Feat instead of his Wizard Spellcasting feature . . . then his other feature which says, "When you cast a Wizard spell . . . [something happens]" DOES trigger in this case as well.
Hopefully this explanation clears up some confusion about this concept although I'm not particularly optimistic about that.
Long posts do not serve to clarify, especially when they are the source of the confusion and contain errors. You cannot mix rules ideas from 2014 and 2024 to make a coherent argument about either of those rule sets. Post #38 does that.
2024 rules have gone away from the idea of known spells. There is no statement in the PHB about a cleric knowing the entire cleric spell list, a sorcerer only knowing some, or anything of the like. All classes prepare spells with different rules for the method of changing those prepared spells. Any argument about the cleric knowing all spells on the cleric list in the 2024 rules is entirely and patently baseless.
We are going to ignore the cognitive dissonance of the fact that the rule "Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your Cleric spells." is logically inconsistent and completely incompatible with treating spells on the cleric list that you learn from another class or feature and cast with a different spellcasting stat as cleric spells.
Yes, that really does mean that casting a cleric spell must mean using the cleric spellcasting feature because otherwise you aren't casting a cleric spell.
One can't just slam their old understanding of 2014 rules onto the 2024 rules and expect them to be identical -- whether or not that was a correct interpretation for the old rules. The new books in fact do provide different rules. Posts like the previous can only serve to spread misunderstanding because they aren't even up to date.
One can't just slam their old understanding of 2014 rules onto the 2024 rules and expect them to be identical -- whether or not that was a correct interpretation for the old rules. The new books in fact do provide different rules. Posts like the previous can only serve to spread misunderstanding because they aren't even up to date.
Yes, I agree. This has been one of my main points throughout this thread. A lot of people are remembering what the common interpretation was with the 2014 rules, and they are assuming that it still works that way. In fact, it never worked that way in 2014 either, but the interpretation was a lot more reasonable then because the term wasn't tightly defined. Back then, we had statements like this:
"As a conduit for divine power, you can cast cleric spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the cleric spell list."
Because of wording like this, it wasn't clear that this was what the game actually meant by the term "Cleric spell" and so this was largely ignored by the community and a different, much more complicated interpretation became standard.
This has all been cleaned up and clarified in 2024 and we no longer have to make assumptions about what this term means -- it is now directly written into the rules:
You have learned to cast spells through prayer and meditation. See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description.
Ignoring this rule and choosing a different interpretation for what this term means in the game is now the same as ignoring the Rules as Written. No alternate interpretation is reasonable in 2024.
You cannot mix rules ideas from 2014 and 2024 to make a coherent argument about either of those rule sets. Post #38 does that.
2024 rules have gone away from the idea of known spells. There is no statement in the PHB about a cleric knowing the entire cleric spell list, a sorcerer only knowing some, or anything of the like. All classes prepare spells with different rules for the method of changing those prepared spells. Any argument about the cleric knowing all spells on the cleric list in the 2024 rules is entirely and patently baseless.
You seem to be losing the thread of the . . . er . . . thread here.
The whole reason why that post was discussing how some of the old 2014 rules worked was because there was some discussion about an old tweet from the author of the rules. The new rules did not yet exist when that tweet was published. There was some discussion that mistakenly claimed that something about the old tweet refuted my rules explanations in this thread.
The main point of that discussion was simply to point out that none of those rules about which feature you are using to cast a spell or which method you have used to prepare a spell or what the requirements are when you multiclass have anything at all to do with the definition of terms such as "Cleric spell" or "Warlock spell". The Original Post in this thread was asking about what the term "Warlock spell" means in this game because it appears in features such as "Psychic Spells" (mentioned in the Original Post). When a feature makes use of this term in that way, the authors are assuming that the DM and the Players will know what this means because proper interpretation of that term will affect how that feature functions.
As for the specifics of your comments -- in fact, the concept of known spells is still used in 2024, particularly when it comes to Cantrip casting. But it's true that I was using the term a bit too loosely in my previous explanation. When I used the term "known" to refer to the spells that the Cleric has access to, for example, I was really talking about the spells that the cleric "knows about". This is in contrast to the Wizard who only "knows about" the spells in his spellbook -- he doesn't know about all of the Wizard spells that exist and therefore he cannot prepare those for casting. Interestingly, the rules still refer to the spells in the spellbook as spells that you "know", but perhaps in a different connotation than how the term is used for the Wizard's cantrips. Perhaps that should be changed to "know about" for consistency of the concept of known spells, but this probably won't happen.
Anyway, it's true that the wording for the Sorcerer has changed although functionally it still works the same way. The Sorcerer now prepares the spells upon level up instead of just knowing them and he cannot change out those spells during any sort of rest. Also, the idea that a Wizard can add any spell to his spellbook that he "learns" has potentially also changed. Based on this, Sage Advice would probably be wrong if it was talking about how the old wording of the Magic Initiate feat interacts with the new wording of the Sorcerer and Wizard Spellcasting features. But so what? That portion of that tweet was just trying to provide an example of how there are different rules for different features (he should not have used this example as it caused his explanation to become unnecessarily complicated).
MY point is that the fact that we use different rules for different features does NOT define what the term "Warlock spell" means. A Warlock spell is what it is. Warlocks have a lot of features that interact with those spells which already exist -- they do NOT cause those spells to become Warlock spells. Such causation is not written in the rules anywhere.
"We are going to ignore the cognitive dissonance of the fact that the rule "Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your Cleric spells." is logically inconsistent and completely incompatible with treating spells on the cleric list that you learn from another class or feature and cast with a different spellcasting stat as cleric spells.
Yes, that really does mean that casting a cleric spell must mean using the cleric spellcasting feature because otherwise you aren't casting a cleric spell."
*****
This is incorrect. There is no causation with that statement. It's the other way around.
The statement:
"Spellcasting Ability. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your Cleric spells"
simply means that when you DO cast a Cleric spell with this Spellcasting feature, then you use Wisdom as your spellcasting ability when you do so. This does NOT cause the spell that you are casting to somehow become a Cleric spell, as if it wasn't already one. In fact, if it wasn't a Cleric spell already then you would NOT be allowed to cast the spell at all with this Spellcasting feature.
So again, in summary, first we establish what the term "Warlock spell" means:
Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear—but its boon to you is concrete: the ability to cast spells. See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules withWarlock spells, which appear in the Warlock spell list later in the class’s description.
. . . which is the bolded part above. THEN, we use the rules that are defined by this Class feature (Pact Magic in this case) to use the general rules of spellcasting in a particular way WITH the Warlock spells which already exist. That's the italicized part above.
In other words, this class feature allows you to interact with Warlock spells in a particular way. The feature does not cause or create Warlock spells. The wording in the 2024 ruleset is quite clear about this.
Aside from Find Familiar , i'm questioning wether Eldritch Invocations spells cast without expending a spell slot effectively count as Warlock Spells taken that none of them are prepared or learned.
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Sorry, but it simply does not work this way in 2024. This issue has been 100% clarified by the new rules. You are quoting an unrelated mechanic which makes no mention of the term "Warlock spell".
The first part that you are highlighting is just telling you which resources and features you have available to you as a multiclassed character who is attempting to prepare a spell. This has nothing to do with whether or not the spell itself is a Warlock spell. It's talking about your character's class. Each individual class that exists within your multiclassed character determines the procedure for which spells you can cast, and which feature is used to cast it as if you are a single-classed member of that class.
For example, the Cleric has a rule where he can "prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast". Then, "To start, choose four level 1 spells from the Cleric spell list". Then, "The number of spells on your list increases as you gain Cleric levels, as shown in the Prepared Spells column of the Cleric Features table." and "The chosen spells must be of a level for which you have spell slots."
Then, an example is given: "For example, if you’re a level 3 Cleric, your list of prepared spells can include six spells of levels 1 and 2 in any combination."
So, when it comes to multiclassing, the rule that you keep quoting is simply saying that if you are a 6th Level character that is a Cleric 3 / Wizard 3, then you can only use your Cleric Spellcasting feature to prepare spells as if you were a Level 3 Cleric -- which means that your list of prepared spells can include six spells of levels 1 and 2 in any combination. Once that is done, you can then use your Wizard Spellcasting feature to prepare some more spells by following the procedures detailed in that feature as if you were a Level 3 Wizard.
That's ALL that that rule is saying. That rule is NOT saying anything whatsoever about what a "Cleric spell" is or what a "Wizard spell" is. It's just not. The words in the text that you quoted are not saying that.
As for the second portion that you've highlighted -- you forgot to highlight the whole sentence. Because the whole point of the rule saying that a prepared spell is associated with one of your classes is so that you are required to use that class's spellcasting ability when you cast that spell. That's ALL that that rule is saying.
So, going back to our example above. We can use our Cleric spellcasting feature to prepare some spells. We can then use our Wizard spellcasting feature to prepare some other spells. Now, once that is done, we have to keep track of which spells were prepared with which feature. Because that last rule says that the spells that were prepared with our Cleric spellcasting feature will use our Cleric spellcasting ability when we cast them and the spells that were prepared with our Wizard spellcasting feature will use our Wizard spellcasting ability when we cast those. NONE of that defines what is a Cleric spell and what is a Wizard spell.
Interestingly, the portion of the Cleric Spellcasting feature which discusses the procedure for changing preparing spells during a Long Rest says this:
"Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change your list of prepared spells, replacing any of the spells there with other Cleric spells for which you have spell slots."
But wait! What could this possibly mean!? Replace my list of prepared spells with what exactly? What are my options? Which spells are available to choose from to be added to my list of prepared spells? It turns out that Clerics (unlike Wizards) are able to choose from ALL of the "Cleric Spells".
But what does "Cleric Spells" actually mean? Which spells are those? Is this defined somewhere?
Fortunately, in 2024, the answer is yes. This term has an exact definition that is clearly written and totally free of any ambiguity. It's really not debatable. This definition is found at the beginning of the spellcasting feature for the Cleric:
You're conflating two separate concepts: Cleric spells do appear on the Cleric Spell List, but it only becomes a Cleric spell for the purposes of a feature that checks for class spells when you've prepared that spell using a feature of the appropriate class. We know this because things like domain spells prepare spells that don't appear on the class list, but still make those spells qualify as spells of the class that grants the feature. This is not a complicated concept to wrap your head around, regardless of attempts to obfuscate by nitpicking choice bits of text; if you build a dual caster multiclass with a non-class feature that preps additional spells using this site's creator you'll see exactly how this all works.
@up2ng, sorry, but it's really hard to follow your replies. They’re very complicated, with a ton of text, and confusing for something that isn't so complicated in the books.
For me, at least, the rules seem clear, and they’re as @The_Ace_of_Rogues or @SmiteMakesRight_3_5 have explained to you.
Yes, sometimes a lot of words are used to describe a concept. However, if you just slow down and read through my posts sentence by sentence and follow the logic of what is written and see how the quoted text supports my conclusions then you will realize that my posts are extremely clear and informative. If there is something specific that you find confusing, then I can try to clarify it. But I do encourage you to just slowly and carefully reread my post if you want to gain a better understanding of the topic.
I am not the one conflating. I have actually gone through quite a lot of trouble to de-conflate these separate concepts, because they are indeed separate.
Most of what you've just described above is just not what's written in the rules.
The biggest thing that is happening here in this thread is that a lot of people are remembering back to what the common interpretation was in 2014, and they are just assuming that it still works that way. But this has now been clarified by the 2024 rules, and the clarification does not match with how many of us were interpreting this previously. It is now clear that the term "Warlock Spell" simply refers to a spell that appears on the Warlock Spell List by default. This is then modified by additional game features when they very explicitly use language such as "this spell counts as a Warlock Spell for you". That's it. Those are what Warlock Spells are as defined by the game in 2024. How you learn a spell and how you choose to prepare it or cast it has nothing at all to do with whether or not that spell is a Warlock spell. The authors have actually gone through quite a bit of effort to clarify this since it was a common topic of discussion which resulted in multiple valid interpretations back in 2014
In 2014, we had this situation:
-- "you can cast cleric spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the cleric spell list." This wording didn't clearly define a cleric spell as a spell that is on the cleric spell list. It was one possible interpretation, but there was a lot of ambiguity. Then, we had this language from within the rules for a cleric that is preparing spells:
-- "The Cleric table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your cleric spells of 1st level and higher." So, what exactly was meant by "your cleric spells"? Nothing really explicitly defined this. Since a Cleric automatically knows all spells that are on the cleric spell list (unlike how it works for a Wizard), in context it seemed like the above statement must instead be referring to spells that the cleric has prepared, not just spells that he knows. That's not actually written anywhere, but it was reasonable logic to use. Also in the cleric's rules for preparing spells we had:
-- "Preparing a new list of cleric spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation." So now there was the whole discussion that there might be some subtle difference between "your Cleric Spells" and just "Cleric Spells". There were whole long threads which discussed all of this. We then had these rules for the spellcasting ability:
-- "Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your cleric spells. The power of your spells comes from your devotion to your deity. You use your Wisdom whenever a cleric spell refers to your spellcasting ability. In addition, you use your Wisdom modifier when setting the saving throw DC for a cleric spell you cast and when making an attack roll with one." For the rules for the spellcasting focus we had this:
-- "You can use a holy symbol (see chapter 5, “Equipment”) as a spellcasting focus for your cleric spells". And lastly, the rules for Ritual casting:
-- "You can cast a cleric spell as a ritual if that spell has the ritual tag and you have the spell prepared." In this case, the concept of a cleric spell was something separate from a spell that a cleric has prepared since they had to explicitly clarify that this rule applies only if you have the spell prepared. This further supports the idea that there might have been some difference between "cleric spells" and "your cleric spells" in 2014.
Notice that nothing in any of these 2014 rules above ever actually came out and defined what a "cleric spell" actually is, or what is actually meant by "your cleric spell". All of this had to be inferred by the DM in context, and the community sort of landed on this idea that in order for a spell to be a cleric spell it must have been prepared with a cleric feature and might be subsequently cast with a cleric feature. Nothing ever actually said that. This was all a bunch of guesswork.
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In 2024, the guesswork is gone. The term has a definition that has been directly written into the game. Most of the above language has been cleaned up substantially, reorganized, made more consistent and is much clearer than it was before. This was a deliberate effort by the authors to put this debate to bed so that they could publish features such as Psychic Spells that contain language such as "When you cast a Warlock spell that deals damage . . ." and all players and DMs will know exactly what qualifies as a "Warlock spell" in features such as this because that term now has an exact definition that was written directly into the game.
Now, when we look at the Cleric Spellcasting feature in 2024, we have this situation:
-- "See chapter 7 for the rules on spellcasting. The information below details how you use those rules with Cleric spells, which appear on the Cleric spell list later in the class’s description." This defines the term "Cleric spells". Now, whenever this term is used throughout the rest of this feature and well as whenever this term is used in any other species trait, class feature or Feat, we simply refer back to this definition to know exactly what qualifies as a "Cleric spell". No guesswork. It's well defined, and it's not ambiguous.
-- If you go through all of the rules for Cantrips and for Spell Slots and for Preparing Spells of Level 1+ within the Cleric's Spellcasting feature, the terms "Cleric Spell" and "your Cleric Spell" are NEVER used in 2024! Compare that to the obvious mess above in the 2014 rules. This change is deliberate! They have gone out of their way to improve this wording. Instead, these rules use phrases such as "the Cleric spell list" and "your level 1+ spells" and "your list of prepared spells". But eventually, we do finally get to a rule which is deliberately explicit about a spell counting as a "Cleric Spell":
-- "If another Cleric feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Cleric spells for you." This is explicitly telling us that these particular spells count as Cleric spells for you. Next, we have a series of rules which refer to the term "Cleric spells". Since this term has an exact definition in 2024, we now know exactly what these rules are talking about when they use this term:
-- "Whenever you finish a Long Rest, you can change your list of prepared spells, replacing any of the spells there with other Cleric spells for which you have spell slots." and "Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your Cleric spells." and "You can use a Holy Symbol as a Spellcasting Focus for your Cleric spells"
Because the term is defined in 2024, we now know that "your Cleric spells" just refers to "Cleric spells" that you happen to have prepared and/or that you happen to be casting. It's not the other way around. The preparation and/or casting does NOT make something a Cleric spell. The Cleric spells are what they are. If you have one of these prepared, then that is one of your Cleric Spells.
But, depending on the spell, one of your Cleric Spells might also be one of your Druid Spells, even if you are just a single-classed Cleric. Because the spells are what they are. The game now defines it that way. So, if you have used your Cleric Spellcasting feature to prepare a bunch of your Cleric Spells and you decide to cast one of those spells with your Cleric Spellcasting feature . . . if you also have some sort of Feat or other game feature that triggers "when you cast a Druid spell", then this will trigger if indeed that Cleric spell that you cast is also a Druid spell. That's how it works now.
The class feature will generally specify that you have to learn / prepare / cast spells of that class. So, a Cleric's Spellcasting feature will have a bunch of rules that makes it so that it only works for Cleric spells. The spell is what it is. Whether or not the spell counts as a Cleric spell is determined first. Then, if it qualifies, then you can use your Cleric Spellcasting feature to learn / prepare / cast that spell. It's not the other way around. The use of the feature does NOT make something a certain type of spell. It's the reverse. You are generally restricted to only dealing with a certain type of spell in order to use that feature in the first place.
The multiclass spellcasting rules just follow that same design. You use the class features of each of your classes as if you were a single-classed character of that class. The spells which qualify to be used by those features will be defined by / restricted by that feature -- but the feature does not define which type of spell it is.
The new wording of the 2024 rules makes all of this clear.
Yes, you have a Class Feature that defines [Class] spells. In the case of Cleric spells, the class feature specifies that the base selection of Class spells, for members of that class, are found on the Cleric spell list, but if you don't have that class feature, they are not Cleric spells for you because you do not have a class feature that defines them as such. It's like ASI/feats, you don't get them at 4th Character Level, you get them at 4th Class Level, because they are a class feature.
On this, we agree.
No. That's not how it works. The Class spell list is written within the class information, but it's not within the class features for the class -- it is listed in its own section. This says something about how the class works its magic, but the fact that a certain spell is a [Class] spell is not a feature of that class. When the Spellcasting feature for the class is introduced, it begins by mentioning what the term [class] spell means and where those spells can be found so that the rest of the Feature makes sense when it goes on to detail the rules for Cantrips and for Preparing Spells and for Casting Spells and so on when using that class Feature to do so. The class feature is not making a spell a [Class] spell. It is just telling you what a [Class] spell is and where they are listed for future reference.
Also, the ASI Feat example is incorrect. The Feat itself has no such restriction. The only prerequisite listed for obtaining the Feat is "Level 4+". This is not referring to a class level. It refers to the Character Level. The reason why you typically get this Feat at the 4th class level is because that's typically how you gain access to being able to acquire a Feat in the first place. Your class feature gives you that access and allows you to acquire a Feat at that time. But if there was some other method available, then you could gain the ASI Feat at some other time. For example, suppose you acquired a single use consumable magic item which, when used, allowed you to gain a Feat. By using that method, you could gain this ASI Feat at some other moment in time besides the moment that you gain the 4th class level. But using this alternate method of acquiring the Feat would NOT change anything about the Feat itself or its listed prerequisite.
I don't know if there are still sidebars in the PHB or the DMG which discuss the concept of the Weave and how the people of the universe can interact with that Weave since I do not currently have a copy of those books -- the 2024 Free Rules do not have this information so I cannot directly quote it.
But the basic design that is going on here is that each class has its own method for how it interacts with the Weave in order to cast spells:
For the Bard: "You have learned to cast spells through your bardic arts." For the Cleric: "You have learned to cast spells through prayer and meditation." For the Druid: "You have learned to cast spells through studying the mystical forces of nature." For the Paladin: "You have learned to cast spells through prayer and meditation." (apparently in a slightly different way than how the Cleric does it, but with a lot of overlap.) For the Ranger: "You have learned to channel the magical essence of nature to cast spells." For the Sorcerer: "Drawing from your innate magic, you can cast spells." For the Warlock: "Through occult ceremony, you have formed a pact with a mysterious entity to gain magical powers. The entity is a voice in the shadows—its identity unclear—but its boon to you is concrete: the ability to cast spells." For the Wizard: "As a student of arcane magic, you have learned to cast spells."
These are the various unique methodologies by which the people of the universe have learned to interact with the Weave in order to cast the various spells which exist.
Basically, the spells are what they are within the Weave, and they each present an interface to the world by which to access them. You could think of it like the spell exists in a locked box within the Weave and that box might have a red button or an orange button or a yellow button and so on. If the box has only a red button, then only people that know how to press a red button will be able to access that spell. But if that box has a red button and an orange button and a yellow button, then the people who know how to press red buttons will have access to it and also the people who know how to press orange buttons will have access to it and also the people who know how to press yellow buttons will have access to it.
Using the methodology of pressing a red button to access a particular spell does not make that spell a spell which has a red button and only a red button on its box. And if we did not use any of these methodologies (for example, when casting a species trait spell or a Feat spell), that does NOT mean that that spell now somehow does not have any buttons. All of those buttons are still there, as well as some other interface which was used by that trait or that Feat to access that spell.
Continuing with this analogy, when it comes to the rules for multiclassing, the rules recognize that you might now have more than one feature for accessing spells. One of your classes might allow you to press red buttons and your other class might allow you to press orange buttons. The multiclass rules are simply saying that if you choose to press the red button to prepare a spell, then when you eventually cast that spell later on you must use the spellcasting ability modifier that is associated with pressing red buttons. That's ALL that it says. If that spell had a red button and an orange button, then it still has a red button and an orange button. The spell is what it is. You are merely accessing it through the Weave by using a particular procedure that is specified by your class feature.
So, if you prepare and cast that spell by pressing the red button and you also have another feature which automatically triggers "when you cast a spell that has an orange button", then that feature successfully triggers.
In summary, in 2024, any interpretation that assumes that a spell is a Warlock spell if and only if that spell was prepared by using a Warlock spell feature is incorrect because there is absolutely no text anywhere in the rules which says that. On the other hand, there IS text in the rules which says that a Warlock spell is a spell which appears on the Warlock spell list. So, that's what a Warlock Spell is, because that's what the rules say that it is.
That is absolutely how it works because you don't know what spell list to use for your classes without the class features, starting with Spellcasting or Pact Magic. Without Spellcasting or Pact Magic, you have no class spells.
Putting aside the rules question which has been answered pretty thoroughly aside from one stubborn tr.... individual, DDB should tell you on your character sheet which spells are Warlock spells (as in, acquired via Warlock class features), Bard spells (acquired via Bard class features) or other (generally acquired via feats or species traits, but also sometimes from things like magic items)
If you look on your Spells list, under the name of each spell it will tell you the source of that spell. Only the ones that say 'Warlock' should be eligible for Psychic Spells
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It's not actually clear who you are referring to with this comment. However, instead of calling people names, which is a clear and obvious Forum Rules violation, it would probably be more productive for you to actually just provide your interpretation of the topic that was asked about in the original post, use quotes from the actual written rules to support your position, and then explain how you are coming to your conclusion.
While this is true, none of this determines what the term "Warlock Spell" means in the game. Yes, it's true that a character generally won't necessarily know how to access Warlock spells until he takes a Level in the Warlock class, which gives him access to the Pact Magic feature which now grants the Warlock character access to those spells. So what? That does not mean that there is no such thing as a Warlock spell in the universe if my character doesn't belong to the Warlock class. There is no rules text which supports that idea.
The rules tell you what the term "Warlock spell" means and which spells qualify by default, and then the Pact Magic feature goes on to provide a bunch of specific rules for how to use the general rules of spellcasting with Warlock spells:
"The information below details how you use those rules [ (meaning, the general rules for spellcasting) ] with Warlock spells".
First of all, it's well documented that the functionality of DDB does not always perfectly align with the rules as written, especially since the transition to the 2024 rules while also attempting to maintain some backward compatability.
However, in this case, you are simply misinterpreting the information that it's providing. When you say ". . . which spells are Warlock spells (as in, acquired via Warlock class feature)", you are making an assumption. That assumption is not backed up by the rules.
If the online tool is providing a list of your available prepared spells and it puts the word "(Warlock)" in parentheses next to the name of the spell, that is NOT saying that that spell is a "Warlock Spell". It is just saying that the spell was prepared with the Warlock's class feature. It's necessary to keep track of this because that prepared spell can only be cast by using that same feature:
"You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature."
This gives you information about which rules will be used when casting that spell and which resources will be required to do so. For example, if this same spell was prepared through the use of a Feat, that Feat might specify that the spell can be cast without using a spell slot. The note about which method was used to prepare this spell is important because if you don't currently have any available spell slots, this will help you determine whether or not you can currently cast this spell with your current available resources.
I'm not super familiar with that tool and how it's implemented and whether or not that implementation has been updated since the release of the 2024 rules. If it does not function correctly, that's not a problem with the rules, it's a problem with the tool.
The 2024 rules tell us that the term "Warlock spell" refers to a spell that exists on the Warlock Spell list by default, and this term also accurately refers to any spell where there has been an explicit statement such as "this spell counts as a Warlock spell for you". So, when you see this term used in a feature that says something like "When you cast a Warlock spell, you can . . ." that's what the term is referring to. The method by which the spell was prepared does not determine whether or not a spell qualifies as being a member of this category -- there is absolutely no rules support for that interpretation in 2024.
Dndbeyond is working as intended. No known issues on this topic are cataloged by the developers of the site. Each spell you prepare is associated with the class it is prepared through, as the rules say, or the feature itself if the feature providing it does not indicate it counts as a class spell. Each spell is also only offered with a single spell casting stat associated with the method the spell was learned. No Wisdom casting your sorcerer spells just because they happen to appear on the cleric list also.
Failure to interpret the rules like the people that affect this implementation (the rules authors and the site builders) does not constitute a bug; it constitutes an opinion. Everyone is free to an opinion, but sometimes opinions are incorrect. Heck, you probably think this one is incorrect.
Remember, the statement that a particular user is saying they are "only" using "objective fact" is also an opinion, which, again, can be objectively incorrect. Although there may be additional posts in this thread, remember that the rules are all you really need to consider when making the decision for your table -- and maybe their implementation in Dndbeyond. Anything any users say here is just opinion.
Just realized this isn't quite accurate. Any spells you acquire through invocations will be labeled as 'Eldritch Invocation" and not 'Warlock' on DDB (cantrips through Pact of the Tome, disguise self through Mask of Many Faces, etc.), but Psychic Spells should still apply
Active characters:
Green Hill Sunrise, jaded tabaxi mercenary trapped in the Dark Domains (Battle Master fighter)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Yes, this is all correct. These are the rules for multiclassing. And yet, none of that has anything to do with what the term "Warlock Spell" means. If you are making a claim that it does, then you are making an assumption -- possibly influenced by your experience with playing under the 2014 ruleset. But what is actually happening is that you are attempting to add something to the rules that is not actually written there.
For reference, here is the rule that you are referring to:
From Creating a Character --> Multiclassing --> Class Features --> Spellcasting:
First of all, keep in mind where this rule is located (Creating a Character --> Multiclassing --> Class Features --> Spellcasting).
This is a rule that ONLY applies to multiclass characters. It tells us how to apply class features to the character while leveling up a multiclass character. Specifically, this rule ONLY applies to characters that have acquired multiple instances of the "Spellcasting" class feature.
An important note about that -- this rule does NOT even apply to the Pact Magic feature at all. It only applies to instances of the Spellcasting feature when a character has more than one of those.
For those characters that DO have more than one instance of the Spellcasting feature, this rule is just saying that when you do prepare a spell by using one of your Spellcasting features, you make a note of which class this feature belongs to, and you associate that prepared spell with that class. The only reason why you keep track of this is because later on when you cast this spell you are required to use the appropriate spellcasting ability to cast it because that spell was prepared in a certain way. None of this has anything to do with what a "Warlock spell" is -- it's just a rule that requires you to be consistent between how you prepare the spell and how you cast the spell IF you used a Spellcasting feature to prepare that spell.
If you want to know what a Warlock spell is, you have to go check out the information that's provided that is associated with that class. Not as a class feature which would require levels in that class to use, but just as information that is associated with that class -- the Class lists are in their own sections of the book within the information for that class that is separate from the class features.
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Just as an aside, I vaguely remember that there was an old tweet from JC on this subject that basically said that the term "Warlock spell" just means a spell that exists on the Warlock Spell list. Unfortunately, I do not keep track of his tweets since I don't put much stock in them for RAW discussions so I'm unable to provide a quote of it here. Maybe someone else will find it. Although he often gets the RAW incorrect in such tweets, they are often still valuable in gaining some insight into the RAI and in the thought processes behind the design concepts of some game mechanics.
IMO any spell on your warlock spell list including your sub class, any spell gained through invocations, any spell gained through a feature that says it is added to your spell list.
I'm not sure about the invocations that give you a unlimited casting of a spell as it feels more like a power that they were too lazy to come up with a unique effect and instead just said cast this similar spell at will. But pact of the tome, if you use any of the invocations that let you cast one with your spell slot or once per long rest etc sure.
If you're referring to the following tweets, they actually don't share the same opinion as you. On the contrary, the Dev shares the same opinion as most of us here:
Wait, what? What are you talking about? This aligns pretty much exactly with what I've been saying. When you use a trait or feat or class feature for spellcasting, then you follow the rules that are given in that trait or feat or class feature. That's just the basics of how the game works. Nothing at all to do with what the term "Warlock spell" means, but it's good to know how these mechanics function nonetheless.
Then, in his last answer, JC says exactly what I've been saying: "A class's spells are on that class's spell list." Yes, that's correct! That's what the term "Warlock spell" means! By default, that term refers to spells that are on the Warlock spell list. In addition to the default criteria, a spell also counts if the trait or feat or feature explicitly says that it counts or if it explicitly says that it is added to that class's spell list. Just like JC says, if the spell is not already on that list, a racial trait doesn't add that spell to the list unless it explicitly says otherwise.
I'm talking about two things confirmed by the Dev:
Right. I'm not sure why you think that the first bullet point has anything to do with what the term "Warlock spell" means in the game. The second bullet point is just a true statement -- I'm not sure how that refutes anything that I've said since I agree with the statement.
There still seems to be some confusion here so I'll try to go into a bit more detail to unravel all of this. I know that some people don't like longer posts but sometimes it's necessary.
The first tweet that you mentioned was asking a different question. That question was about whether or not a spell that you can cast with a Feat without using spell slots could also be cast with your spell slots. That's a reasonable question since the wording makes it seem like this is just another option that you have -- to cast the spell without spell slots. But the answer correctly explains that what is actually happening is that you now have two totally different game features that allow you to cast a spell in a certain way. When you use one feature, you follow the rules for that feature. When you use the other feature, you follow the rules for that feature.
Now, the way that he explained this (he made it unnecessarily complicated) was to link to a Sage Advice answer that was asking about the Magic Initiate feat, which actually was a slightly different question (or rather, that particular Feat works a little differently than the Feat that was being asked about). For reference, the 2014 Magic Initiate Feat worked like this (paraphrased):
"Choose a class: Bard, Cleric, etc. . . . choose one 1st-level spell from that class's list. You learn that spell and can cast it at its lowest level. Use the correct spellcasting ability when you use this method to cast this spell."
The Sage Advice answer correctly explains that for this particular Feat, because of how it is worded, it is possible to use your spell slots to cast this spell if the spell came from the same list that your Spellcasting feature is able to cast. But you would be doing this by using the Spellcasting feature to cast the spell, not the Feat -- which is not really what the Sage Advice question was asking, and it certainly wasn't what the above tweet was asking, but that's the general explanation of when and how you can use your spell slots.
For example, a Sorcerer knows SOME Sorcerer spells (spells from the Sorcerer spell list). He is able to cast spells that he knows. Therefore, if he learns a Sorcerer spell from the Magic Initiate feat, he can just choose to use his spell slots to cast that spell (by using the Sorcerer Spellcasting feature to do so, not the Feat).
Next, a Cleric knows ALL Cleric spells (spells from the Cleric spell list). But he must prepare a list of spells that are available to cast by using the Cleric Spellcasting feature to do that. Learning a spell from the Magic Initiate feat is sort of a waste for the Cleric since he already knows all of the Cleric spells. But it would grant the cleric the ability to cast that spell without using a spell slot (by using the Feat to cast it). If he wanted to use a spell slot to cast it instead, he would just prepare it as normal and as he was already able to do before he acquired the Feat by using the Cleric Spellcasting feature to do that and then he could use the Cleric Spellcasting feature to cast that spell with a spell slot.
Lastly, a Wizard knows SOME of the Wizard spells (spells from the Wizard spell list) which are recorded in the spellbook. From this, he must prepare an even smaller list of spells that are available to cast by using the Wizard Spellcasting feature to do that. If he learns a Wizard spell from the Magic Initiate feat and also chooses to add this spell to his spellbook by using the Wizard Spellcasting feature to do so, he could then prepare that spell by using the Wizard Spellcasting feature to do that and then he would be able to use the Wizard Spellcasting feature to cast that spell with a spell slot.
Now, going back to the tweet. He explains that the wording for the Wood Elf Magic feat has different wording, so all of that explanation about how you can use the Spellcasting feature to cast the Feat's spell is irrelevant and that the relevant part is really just the explanation that these are two totally separate methodologies for casting a spell and each of them has their own rules and we must follow the rules for the method that we are using.
For reference, the Wood Elf Magic feat has this wording:
"You also learn the Longstrider and Pass Without Trace spells, each of which you can cast once without expending a spell slot."
Notice that you DO learn these spells, so that part of the tweet is wrong. (It's weird for him to get a detail like this wrong so I sort of wonder if this Feat was updated via errata after this tweet was published.)
Next, he points out that these Feats "don't say that it counts as a spell for you". This seems like some sort of a typo to me since the actual idea that a spell doesn't count as a spell is nonsensical. What he is probably pointing out is that the Feat does not say that the spell is "always prepared" like some features do say.
However, his conclusion that "They're distinguishing the 1 use you get from the feat from other ways you might have to cast the spell" is correct. Indeed, these are two different and separate game features that each provide its own method for casting this spell and each provides its own rules for doing so and you typically have to choose which one you are using when you cast a spell.
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So, here's the thing . . . NONE of that (I repeat, absolutely NONE of that) dictates what a "Warlock spell" is or what that term means in this game. That first tweet is totally irrelevant to the original question posed in this thread.
However, the second tweet shows Jeremy Crawford confirming what the term "Warlock spell" means in this game: "A class's spells are on that class's spell list."
So, for example, the Wood Elf Magic feat causes the character to learn the Longstrider spell. In 2014, Longstrider appeared on the Bard spell list, the Druid spell list, the Ranger spell list and the Wizard spell list. This remains true in 2024. This means that when this Feat is acquired which causes this spell to be learned, the character learned a spell that is a "Bard spell" and is also a "Druid spell" and is also a "Ranger spell" and is also a "Wizard spell".
Now, suppose the character is a Cleric. The above remains true when the Longstrider spell is learned. However, as Jeremy Crawford points out: "Racial traits aren't added to your class's list unless your trait says otherwise." This racial trait does NOT say otherwise. Therefore, this character did NOT learn a "Cleric spell" when he learned Longstrider.
However (and this is the important part for the purposes of the original thread question), IF for some reason this Cleric character possesses some sort of trait or feat or feature that uses the phrase "When you cast a Wizard spell . . . [something happens]", then this DOES trigger when this character casts the Longstrider spell.
In addition, if this character was actually a Wizard instead, but he decided to cast the Longstrider spell without using a spell slot by using the Feat instead of his Wizard Spellcasting feature . . . then his other feature which says, "When you cast a Wizard spell . . . [something happens]" DOES trigger in this case as well.
Hopefully this explanation clears up some confusion about this concept although I'm not particularly optimistic about that.
Long posts do not serve to clarify, especially when they are the source of the confusion and contain errors. You cannot mix rules ideas from 2014 and 2024 to make a coherent argument about either of those rule sets. Post #38 does that.
2024 rules have gone away from the idea of known spells. There is no statement in the PHB about a cleric knowing the entire cleric spell list, a sorcerer only knowing some, or anything of the like. All classes prepare spells with different rules for the method of changing those prepared spells. Any argument about the cleric knowing all spells on the cleric list in the 2024 rules is entirely and patently baseless.
We are going to ignore the cognitive dissonance of the fact that the rule "Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your Cleric spells." is logically inconsistent and completely incompatible with treating spells on the cleric list that you learn from another class or feature and cast with a different spellcasting stat as cleric spells.
Yes, that really does mean that casting a cleric spell must mean using the cleric spellcasting feature because otherwise you aren't casting a cleric spell.
One can't just slam their old understanding of 2014 rules onto the 2024 rules and expect them to be identical -- whether or not that was a correct interpretation for the old rules. The new books in fact do provide different rules. Posts like the previous can only serve to spread misunderstanding because they aren't even up to date.
Yes, I agree. This has been one of my main points throughout this thread. A lot of people are remembering what the common interpretation was with the 2014 rules, and they are assuming that it still works that way. In fact, it never worked that way in 2014 either, but the interpretation was a lot more reasonable then because the term wasn't tightly defined. Back then, we had statements like this:
"As a conduit for divine power, you can cast cleric spells. See chapter 10 for the general rules of spellcasting and chapter 11 for the cleric spell list."
Because of wording like this, it wasn't clear that this was what the game actually meant by the term "Cleric spell" and so this was largely ignored by the community and a different, much more complicated interpretation became standard.
This has all been cleaned up and clarified in 2024 and we no longer have to make assumptions about what this term means -- it is now directly written into the rules:
Ignoring this rule and choosing a different interpretation for what this term means in the game is now the same as ignoring the Rules as Written. No alternate interpretation is reasonable in 2024.
You seem to be losing the thread of the . . . er . . . thread here.
The whole reason why that post was discussing how some of the old 2014 rules worked was because there was some discussion about an old tweet from the author of the rules. The new rules did not yet exist when that tweet was published. There was some discussion that mistakenly claimed that something about the old tweet refuted my rules explanations in this thread.
The main point of that discussion was simply to point out that none of those rules about which feature you are using to cast a spell or which method you have used to prepare a spell or what the requirements are when you multiclass have anything at all to do with the definition of terms such as "Cleric spell" or "Warlock spell". The Original Post in this thread was asking about what the term "Warlock spell" means in this game because it appears in features such as "Psychic Spells" (mentioned in the Original Post). When a feature makes use of this term in that way, the authors are assuming that the DM and the Players will know what this means because proper interpretation of that term will affect how that feature functions.
As for the specifics of your comments -- in fact, the concept of known spells is still used in 2024, particularly when it comes to Cantrip casting. But it's true that I was using the term a bit too loosely in my previous explanation. When I used the term "known" to refer to the spells that the Cleric has access to, for example, I was really talking about the spells that the cleric "knows about". This is in contrast to the Wizard who only "knows about" the spells in his spellbook -- he doesn't know about all of the Wizard spells that exist and therefore he cannot prepare those for casting. Interestingly, the rules still refer to the spells in the spellbook as spells that you "know", but perhaps in a different connotation than how the term is used for the Wizard's cantrips. Perhaps that should be changed to "know about" for consistency of the concept of known spells, but this probably won't happen.
Anyway, it's true that the wording for the Sorcerer has changed although functionally it still works the same way. The Sorcerer now prepares the spells upon level up instead of just knowing them and he cannot change out those spells during any sort of rest. Also, the idea that a Wizard can add any spell to his spellbook that he "learns" has potentially also changed. Based on this, Sage Advice would probably be wrong if it was talking about how the old wording of the Magic Initiate feat interacts with the new wording of the Sorcerer and Wizard Spellcasting features. But so what? That portion of that tweet was just trying to provide an example of how there are different rules for different features (he should not have used this example as it caused his explanation to become unnecessarily complicated).
MY point is that the fact that we use different rules for different features does NOT define what the term "Warlock spell" means. A Warlock spell is what it is. Warlocks have a lot of features that interact with those spells which already exist -- they do NOT cause those spells to become Warlock spells. Such causation is not written in the rules anywhere.
^
*****
"We are going to ignore the cognitive dissonance of the fact that the rule "Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your Cleric spells." is logically inconsistent and completely incompatible with treating spells on the cleric list that you learn from another class or feature and cast with a different spellcasting stat as cleric spells.
Yes, that really does mean that casting a cleric spell must mean using the cleric spellcasting feature because otherwise you aren't casting a cleric spell."
*****
This is incorrect. There is no causation with that statement. It's the other way around.
The statement:
"Spellcasting Ability. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for your Cleric spells"
simply means that when you DO cast a Cleric spell with this Spellcasting feature, then you use Wisdom as your spellcasting ability when you do so. This does NOT cause the spell that you are casting to somehow become a Cleric spell, as if it wasn't already one. In fact, if it wasn't a Cleric spell already then you would NOT be allowed to cast the spell at all with this Spellcasting feature.
So again, in summary, first we establish what the term "Warlock spell" means:
. . . which is the bolded part above. THEN, we use the rules that are defined by this Class feature (Pact Magic in this case) to use the general rules of spellcasting in a particular way WITH the Warlock spells which already exist. That's the italicized part above.
In other words, this class feature allows you to interact with Warlock spells in a particular way. The feature does not cause or create Warlock spells. The wording in the 2024 ruleset is quite clear about this.
Aside from Find Familiar , i'm questioning wether Eldritch Invocations spells cast without expending a spell slot effectively count as Warlock Spells taken that none of them are prepared or learned.