Quote from Plaguescarred >>

An example of Exceptions Supersede General Rules similar to Partially Incorporeal is the Incorporeal Movement of monsters such as the Wraith;

Incorporeal Movement. The wraith can move through other creatures and objects as if they were Difficult Terrain. It takes 5 (1d10) Force damage if it ends its turn inside an object.

Yeah, here's the thing -- if there's no rule spelled out, there's nothing you can create an exception to

What rule does that create an exception to? It certainly isn't this one

Moving around Other Creatures

During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.

Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally.

Nor is it this one

A space is Difficult Terrain if the space contains any of the following or something similar:

• A creature that isn’t Tiny or your ally
• Furniture that is sized for creatures of your size or larger
• Heavy snow, ice, rubble, or undergrowth
• Liquid that’s between shin- and waist-deep
• A narrow opening sized for a creature one size smaller than you
• A slope of 20 degrees or more

The Incorporeal Movement creates an exception on movement that supercedes the rules on Moving Around other creatures.

So is Partially Incorporeal and Halfling Nimbleness.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

The Incorporeal Movement creates an exception on movement that supercedes the rules on Moving Around other creatures.

So is Partially Incorporeal and Halfling Nimbleness.

 

The only thing Incorporeal Movement really adds to the existing RAW is the part about taking Force damage

Incorporeal Movement. The wraith can move through other creatures and objects as if they were Difficult Terrain.

Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally.

It's fascinating to me that you are reading this

During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.

And your brain seems to be actually seeing this

During your move, you can only pass through the space of another creature if they are an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.

So, are some people looking for an explicit rule which says that you cannot move through an occupied space?

That's probably meant to be one of those things that's just a given which doesn't need to be explicitly stated.  Like, under normal conditions it is assumed that a creature cannot walk through walls -- there doesn't necessarily need to be a rule which states this -- this is sort of part of the basic framework for how the D&D world functions.  If your world drastically alters basic physics, like it has reverse gravity or it's totally underwater or there are no such things as solid objects, etc., then the DM will have to clearly explain to the players about how that will impact the explicit and implicit rules which we usually play by.  So, I guess the general solution here is that the DM is just expected to adjudicate each situation and tell the player what is or is not physically possible.

The Glossary defines an Object as:  "a nonliving, distinct thing. Composite things, like buildings, comprise more than one object."  There is also a statement within the "Breaking Objects" Glossary entry which mentions that:  "Big objects, such as castle walls, often . . .".  I vaguely feel like this is a change from how it was defined in the 2014 DMG in that now all physical "things" (nonliving) are an object or are a part of an object or are a combination of multiple objects.

The Glossary then defines an Occupied Space as:  "A space is occupied if a creature is in it or if it is completely filled by objects."

And an Unoccupied Space as:  "A space is unoccupied if no creatures are in it and it isn’t completely filled by objects."

These definitions leave no room for any such thing as a "Partially Occupied" Space.  The space is either occupied or it is unoccupied.

Of course, even if we make the assumption that a creature cannot enter an occupied space, there are a couple of edge cases:

1)  Suppose autumn causes many trees to lose their leaves.  Someone rakes their yard and creates an enormous pile of leaves that is larger than 5 x 5 x 5.  Are we to believe that it is now totally impossible for any creature to enter that space simply because it is currently occupied by a pile of leaves?

2)  Suppose there is a 1-foot-thick brick wall in front of you.  This wall cuts across the front edge of the 5 x 5 x 5 space in front of you.  This object (the wall) does not completely occupy the space.  Can a creature claim to enter the back half of that space from the front (by moving through the wall), claiming that the space is "merely" Difficult Terrain?  Obviously, a DM should simply not allow this although it's difficult to point to a specific explicit rule which prevents this.  (Even the rules for Cover aren't helpful when it comes to a creature attempting to simply move through solid objects.)  Again, some things should not have to be stated in the rule books otherwise the books would be hundreds of thousands of pages long.

The fact is, the movement rules are set up as follows:

It begins with a few paragraphs about the default rules for movement, which assumes unimpeded movement through empty unoccupied spaces.  Next, it discusses how these rules are changed if the space is still technically unoccupied but partially impedes movement in some way (half-filled with objects, for example).  Following this logical trend, it is implied, but not explicitly stated, that a creature cannot move through occupied spaces (they cannot move through walls by default).

Then, the rules go on to explain that a creature actually occupies space:  "A creature belongs to a size category, which determines the width of the square space the creature occupies on a map.  This means that now, by default, no creature can ever move through any other creature's space.

The section after that goes on to make several exceptions to that default state:  Ally space (unimpeded), Tiny creature space (unimpeded), an incapacitated creature (difficult terrain unless ally or Tiny), a creature two sizes larger or smaller (difficult terrain unless Ally or Tiny).

Yes, technically it would probably be better if the movement rules began with one additional statement such as:  "By default, a creature cannot enter any occupied space".  But there are problems with this as mentioned above -- most Gargantuan creatures should be able to flatten many objects which might occupy a space, for example.  Or, perhaps there could be a more creature specific rule added, such as:  "By default, a creature cannot enter any space that is occupied by another creature", and then it could go on to list the exceptions to that.  Again, I don't think that this is really needed, but it probably would be better.

Anyway, getting back to the OP's question about the Partially Incorporeal clause of the Cloak of Shadows feature which says:

""You can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain".

And one of this thread's subsequent comments:

Quote from AntonSirius >>

1) There's nothing in the feature suggesting the monk can walk through walls

I say . . . why not??  I think that this is exactly what the feature does for this monk.  

The definition of "incorporeal" is:

"Incorporeal" is an adjective that describes something that lacks a physical or material body.

Given the title of this clause, the concept is for the Monk to become partially like a traditional ghost which can move through walls unimpeded.  Because it's "partial", this becomes a slower process than just walking normally, hence the Difficult Terrain rules when attempting something like this -- similar to some sort of permeation process.

To the original author of this thread, remember that the Partially Incorporeal clause begins with:

You can . . .

Any time that you see the phrase "you can" in a feature, it means that it's optional.  This means that if for some reason it is normally even easier for you to move through an occupied space, such as with a space occupied by an Ally, then you can choose not to use this feature and just move through that space unimpeded as normal.

Quote from Plaguescarred >>

An example of Exceptions Supersede General Rules similar to Partially Incorporeal is the Incorporeal Movement of monsters such as the Wraith;

Incorporeal Movement. The wraith can move through other creatures and objects as if they were Difficult Terrain. It takes 5 (1d10) Force damage if it ends its turn inside an object.

 Which bring us right back around full circle. If we apply that to the Monk's movement, and the Monk can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain, then it's a PENALTY for the Monk, not a benefit. Because otherwise, the Monk could move through spaces occupied by an ally, or a tiny creature without a movement penalty but now, with that feature, there's a movement penalty because the space is now Difficult Terrain.

The entire feature defies logic. But, then, so do a lot of the 2024 rules...

Ok, so let's see if we can put some clarity to the quesiton, and the answers:

 - Movement through a space occupied by an ally, an incapacitated creature, a tiny creature, or furniture that does not fully occupy the space, is unimpeded movement, done freely. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would either have no effect, or be a penalty.

 - Movement through a space occupied by a creature that is neutral, or an enemy, according to the Movement Rules is Difficult Terrain. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect since it makes movement through any occupied space Difficult Terrain, and it's already Difficult Terrain based on the Movement Rules.

 - Movement through a space fully occupied by furniture, by the Movement Rules, would be Difficult Terrain. Again, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect, because the space would already be Difficult Terrain.

So, again I ask, what's the point of the Partially Incorporeal feature??? 

Quote from zanzibozo>>

Ok, so let's see if we can put some clarity to the quesiton, and the answers:

 - Movement through a space occupied by an ally, an incapacitated creature, a tiny creature, or furniture that does not fully occupy the space, is unimpeded movement, done freely. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would either have no effect, or be a penalty.

 I think it's safe to assume that if a space isn't Difficult Terrain, Partially Incorporeal doesn't make it one. Or at least, that's how I rule the interaction.

 - Movement through a space occupied by a creature that is neutral, or an enemy, according to the Movement Rules is Difficult Terrain. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect since it makes movement through any occupied space Difficult Terrain, and it's already Difficult Terrain based on the Movement Rules.

 It has effect: you can pass through the space of an enemy when normally you can't: Moving around Other Creatures.

 - Movement through a space fully occupied by furniture, by the Movement Rules, would be Difficult Terrain. Again, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect, because the space would already be Difficult Terrain.

 That's right. And ok for me.

So, again I ask, what's the point of the Partially Incorporeal feature??? 

 You can pass through the space of an enemy when normally you can't: Moving around Other Creatures.

And, if your DM allow it, you could pass trough walls. EDIT: this point is harder for me to defend.

Quote from zanzibozo >>

 - Movement through a space occupied by a creature that is neutral, or an enemy, according to the Movement Rules is Difficult Terrain. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect since it makes movement through any occupied space Difficult Terrain, and it's already Difficult Terrain based on the Movement Rules.

The argument from the other side is that the general movement rules don't expressly tell you that you can move through the space of a non-ally, so you can't do it at all. Even though the very next sentence of the movement rules says it's Difficult Terrain when you do it

One of the problems with that interpretation, aside from the confusion it's caused with this specific rule, is that following it consistently would create a whole host of other issues

For example, the Social Interaction rules say that social situations are handled in two ways: role-playing, and ability checks

During their adventures, player characters meet many different people and face some monsters that would rather talk than fight. In those situations, it’s time for social interaction, which takes many forms. For example, you might try to convince a burglar to confess to wrongdoing or try to flatter a guard. The Dungeon Master assumes the roles of any nonplayer characters who are participating.

An NPC’s attitude toward your character is Friendly, Indifferent, or Hostile, as defined in the rules glossary. Friendly NPCs are predisposed to help, and Hostile ones are inclined to hinder.

Social interactions progress in two ways: through roleplaying and ability checks.

Magic isn't mentioned as an option, and (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) I can't find anything elsewhere in the rules that carves out that specific exception. So per this strict "if it doesn't explicitly say you can do it, you can't" theory of RAW, you can't cast a spell like suggestion to get that burglar to confess, because it's neither RP nor involves an ability check

Quote from AntonSirius >>

It's fascinating to me that you are reading this

During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.

 

I find it equally fascinating that you read that quote and think that they decided to spend all those words detailing a bunch of sub-sets of creatures when they really meant to say "all". That really doesn't fit well with their base design philosophy.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Magic isn't mentioned as an option, and (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) I can't find anything elsewhere in the rules that carves out that specific exception. So per this strict "if it doesn't explicitly say you can do it, you can't" theory of RAW, you can't cast a spell like suggestion to get that burglar to confess, because it's neither RP nor involves an ability check

Yea this is a straw-man. The rules allows you to take actions during exploration or social interactions as well as during combat. And taking the Magic action allows you to cast a spell and the description of the spell tells you how it works and the effects it might have on the situation.

Quote from Thezzaruz >>

The rules allows you to take actions during exploration or social interactions as well as during combat. And taking the Magic action allows you to cast a spell and the description of the spell tells you how it works and the effects it might have on the situation.

You mean this section?

Actions can come up in other situations, too: in a social interaction, you can try to Influence a creature or use the Search action to read the creature’s body language, but you can’t do both at the same time. And when you’re exploring a dungeon, you can’t simultaneously use the Search action to look for traps and use the Help action to aid another character who’s trying to open a stuck door (with the Utilize action).

Why would they spend all those words detailing a bunch of sub-sets of actions when they really meant to say "all"?

Heck, in this case the examples they picked reinforce the idea that social interactions are limited to RP or ability checks, since those are the only Actions they mentioned

I feel like the social interaction sidebar is getting pretty far off-topic, but just to put my two cents into that hypothetical:

If you are currently in a social interaction and then you decide to cast a spell such as Suggestion, you are no longer socially interacting in that moment -- you are casting a spell.  That is not a social activity.  Perhaps immediately after casting a spell you might attempt to get back into a social interaction mode if the other creature is open to that . . . or perhaps not, who knows.

During the times when you are actually interacting socially, you roleplay the interaction and sometimes the DM will call for a check to determine whether the words that were roleplayed actually had some sort of effect on the other creature.  That's just how social interaction works in the game, there is nothing wrong with that rule.  Of course, there are plenty of encounters that are not resolved entirely socially.  In fact, many of them are resolved by combat, which is also not a very social activity.

But anyway, as for the OP's concerns:

Quote from zanzibozo >>

If we apply that to the Monk's movement, and the Monk can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain, then it's a PENALTY for the Monk, not a benefit. Because otherwise, the Monk could move through spaces occupied by an ally, or a tiny creature without a movement penalty but now, with that feature, there's a movement penalty because the space is now Difficult Terrain. 

Again, there is no penalty if that's what you are concerned about.

I know that my previous post was a bit long, but let me just repeat a small portion of it here to ease your mind on that:

Quote from up2ng >>

To the original author of this thread, remember that the Partially Incorporeal clause begins with:

You can . . .

Any time that you see the phrase "you can" in a feature, it means that it's optional.  This means that if for some reason it is normally even easier for you to move through an occupied space, such as with a space occupied by an Ally, then you can choose not to use this feature and just move through that space unimpeded as normal.

As for your other recent post:

Quote from zanzibozo >>

 - Movement through a space occupied by an ally, an incapacitated creature, a tiny creature, or furniture that does not fully occupy the space, is unimpeded movement, done freely. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would either have no effect, or be a penalty.

 - Movement through a space occupied by a creature that is neutral, or an enemy, according to the Movement Rules is Difficult Terrain. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect since it makes movement through any occupied space Difficult Terrain, and it's already Difficult Terrain based on the Movement Rules.

 - Movement through a space fully occupied by furniture, by the Movement Rules, would be Difficult Terrain. Again, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect, because the space would already be Difficult Terrain.

 

Again, none of these will be the generally accepted interpretations.  The game is designed around a concept that you cannot occupy an occupied space.  There are all sorts of spells and other effects which change your location where there is some sort of caveat written along the lines of "If the space is occupied, you move to the closest unoccupied space".  You will find this all over the place in the game.

Once you realize that the default design is that you cannot occupy an occupied space, the next critical point to realize is that a creature occupies a space according to its size.  This means that by default, you cannot occupy the same space as another creature.  The movement rules then go on to create a few exceptions to this -- sometimes when you move through another creature's space it is difficult terrain and sometimes it is just uninhibited movement.

There probably should be an explicit general rule added somewhere which actually states that by default creatures cannot occupy an occupied space and that creatures cannot move through solid objects, but as it stands now it looks like the authors just assumed that people would just automatically agree on such obvious things in most cases.

Quote from up2ng >>

 

Quote from zanzibozo >>

 - Movement through a space occupied by an ally, an incapacitated creature, a tiny creature, or furniture that does not fully occupy the space, is unimpeded movement, done freely. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would either have no effect, or be a penalty.

 - Movement through a space occupied by a creature that is neutral, or an enemy, according to the Movement Rules is Difficult Terrain. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect since it makes movement through any occupied space Difficult Terrain, and it's already Difficult Terrain based on the Movement Rules.

 - Movement through a space fully occupied by furniture, by the Movement Rules, would be Difficult Terrain. Again, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect, because the space would already be Difficult Terrain.

 

 

Again, none of these will be the generally accepted interpretations.  The game is designed around a concept that you cannot occupy an occupied space.  There are all sorts of spells and other effects which change your location where there is some sort of caveat written along the lines of "If the space is occupied, you move to the closest unoccupied space".  You will find this all over the place in the game.

Once you realize that the default design is that you cannot occupy an occupied space, the next critical point to realize is that a creature occupies a space according to its size.  This means that by default, you cannot occupy the same space as another creature.  The movement rules then go on to create a few exceptions to this -- sometimes when you move through another creature's space it is difficult terrain and sometimes it is just uninhibited movement.

There probably should be an explicit general rule added somewhere which actually states that by default creatures cannot occupy an occupied space and that creatures cannot move through solid objects, but as it stands now it looks like the authors just assumed that people would just automatically agree on such obvious things in most cases.

 You're not occupying the space. You're moving through it. There's a difference. And the next sentence of the ability (which I didn't cite before because it didn't seem relevant to the question) is: "If you end your turn is such a space, you are shunted to the last unoccupied space you were in." So, clearly, you can move into a space occupied by another creature. But, you can already under the movement rules, and the definition of Difficult Terrain quoted above in my previous messages. The only difference I can see is that normally you would be forced to have the Prone condition when you were forced into the unoccupied space, but with this ability, you're not. That's a very weak ability, and could have been worded very differently if that was the sole intent. 

Look. Even if you think the full movement rules are fine and don't need clarifying, can we at least agree that putting a truncated version of them in the Glossary that leaves out the part that implies you can't move into an enemy's space was a bad idea?

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Look. Even if you think the full movement rules are fine and don't need clarifying, can we at least agree that putting a truncated version of them in the Glossary that leaves out the part that implies you can't move into an enemy's space was a bad idea?

 They are ok for me, but probably a cross-reference between both sections/rules would be nice.

Quote from zanzibozo >>

Ok, so let's see if we can put some clarity to the quesiton, and the answers:

 - Movement through a space occupied by an ally, an incapacitated creature, a tiny creature, or furniture that does not fully occupy the space, is unimpeded movement, done freely. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would either have no effect, or be a penalty.

 - Movement through a space occupied by a creature that is neutral, or an enemy, according to the Movement Rules is Difficult Terrain. So, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect since it makes movement through any occupied space Difficult Terrain, and it's already Difficult Terrain based on the Movement Rules.

 - Movement through a space fully occupied by furniture, by the Movement Rules, would be Difficult Terrain. Again, the Partially Incorporeal feature would have no effect, because the space would already be Difficult Terrain.

So, again I ask, what's the point of the Partially Incorporeal feature??? 

- Movement through a space occupied by an incapacitated creature, or furniture that does not fully occupy the space, is Difficult Terrain,  so Partially Incorporeal feature can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain the same way anyone can.

- Movement through a space occupied by a creature that is neutral, or an enemy, according to the Movement Rules is impassable or Difficult Terrain depending of size or condition. so Partially Incorporeal feature can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain, when it's otherwise impassable or the same way anyone can.

- Movement through a space fully occupied by furniture, by the Movement Rules, is impassable. so Partially Incorporeal feature can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain, when it's otherwise impassable.

The point of the Partially Incorporeal feature is that can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain, including the ones normally impassable.

Quote from zanzibozo >>

You're not occupying the space. You're moving through it. There's a difference. And the next sentence of the ability (which I didn't cite before because it didn't seem relevant to the question) is: "If you end your turn is such a space, you are shunted to the last unoccupied space you were in." So, clearly, you can move into a space occupied by another creature. But, you can already under the movement rules, and the definition of Difficult Terrain quoted above in my previous messages. The only difference I can see is that normally you would be forced to have the Prone condition when you were forced into the unoccupied space, but with this ability, you're not. That's a very weak ability, and could have been worded very differently if that was the sole intent. 

 You occupy the space if you move into it. With Partially Incorporeal, you can indeed move into a space occupied by another creature, you can even do so when others can't because it's impassable.

Either you can pass through space occupied by a creature or you can't. Either you can pass through space occupied by object or you can't.

When you can pass through space occupied by a creature or object, it cost you movement, and extra movement if Difficult Terrain.

If a space is Difficult Terrain, every foot of movement in that space costs 1 extra foot.

If you can't pass throught a space, it cost no movement nor extra foot if Difficult Terrain. 

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Look. Even if you think the full movement rules are fine and don't need clarifying, can we at least agree that putting a truncated version of them in the Glossary that leaves out the part that implies you can't move into an enemy's space was a bad idea?

 The Rule Glossary could have included the definition of Mooving Around Other Creature but it lacks a term, so it list many of the terms around it such as Creature, Incapacitated, Size, Difficult Terrain etc.

But some rules are more elaborate in the Playing the Game chapter when first introduced, when not only found there.

Rules Glossary

If you read a rules term in this book and want to know its definition, consult the Rules Glossary. This chapter provides an overview of how to play D&D and focuses on the big picture. Many places in this chapter reference that glossary.

Quote from AntonSirius >>

Look. Even if you think the full movement rules are fine and don't need clarifying, can we at least agree that putting a truncated version of them in the Glossary that leaves out the part that implies you can't move into an enemy's space was a bad idea?

To some extent yes but also no, not really. The main problem you are running into is that you are looking at the glossary definition for difficult terrain and expect to get all the rules for all kind of movement.

Sure they could have not mentioned the moving through creatures in the difficult terrain section but then they would instead have to specify it in every place where something does allow you to move through another creature and that is a style of writing rules that they are trying to move away from. And the difficult terrain definition is a bad place to put rules about about movement that isn't difficult terrain (such as space you can't move through at all).

Don't get me wrong, I think that movement should have been its own easy to find section instead of being just a sub-section of the combat rules because movement is something you do in all parts of the game, not just while in combat. And then the glossary for difficult terrain, occupied space and so on could all refer back to that section.

Quote from Thezzaruz>>

Quote from AntonSirius>>

Look. Even if you think the full movement rules are fine and don't need clarifying, can we at least agree that putting a truncated version of them in the Glossary that leaves out the part that implies you can't move into an enemy's space was a bad idea?

To some extent yes but also no, not really. The main problem you are running into is that you are looking at the glossary definition for difficult terrain and expect to get all the rules for all kind of movement.

Rogue: I bonus action disengage and go through the wizard's bodyguards to get to him
DM: Wait, can you do that? (looks at Glossary, sees that enemy spaces are Difficult Terrain) Yeah, I guess so

Sure they could have not mentioned the moving through creatures in the difficult terrain section but then they would instead have to specify it in every place where something does allow you to move through another creature and that is a style of writing rules that they are trying to move away from. And the difficult terrain definition is a bad place to put rules about about movement that isn't difficult terrain (such as space you can't move through at all).

Don't get me wrong, I think that movement should have been its own easy to find section instead of being just a sub-section of the combat rules because movement is something you do in all parts of the game, not just while in combat. And then the glossary for difficult terrain, occupied space and so on could all refer back to that section.

The fundamental problem, I think, is labeling something as Difficult Terrain when the general rules are supposed to say you can't move through it at all. That makes no sense, especially if every feature or ability that provides an exception is going to specify those spaces are Difficult Terrain anyway