My group tends not to Multi-class. We have a mix of experience in our group but I find that their character concepts (we are very RP heavy in our group) don't lend often to multi-classing. I know that mine do not when I am a player.
In college we used Gestalt rules a couple times but those games were often Min/Max video game-esque affairs where players were not encouraged to RP very much. So, having little experience in multi-classing, I wanted to reach out to everyone and see their thoughts. I notice a lot of class threads I have read here mention using Multi-Classing.
I am a "purist" so I don't like multi-classing. Whenever possible I want to get the high-level features for a given class. But this is a personal choice.
Some features from different classes work very well together. In the end, I believe it is just how a player feel about his/her character.
I think it all depends on whether you're enjoying your character to be honest or if you think you'd have more fun otherwise. Like, I think I'd have fun going a super goofy build of like...a cleric warlock barbarian... something not hardcore optimized, and maybe a little silly, but still fun! There are also often times when it just makes sense from a story perspective- like if a Paladin completely reneges on his vows and decides that being a Paladin is not suited for him anymore, he could start taking levels in Barbarian or Fighter.
Obviously you'll have the people that just want to deal as much damage as possible, but that's how they enjoy the game as well. I don't think it's bad to multi-class at all, even if it is for that reason.
Ultimately, I'll multiclass if I feel like I need to. Unfortunately I haven't gotten to be a player in 5e yet (so far I'm the only one that's stepped up to the plate to DM). However, when I do, I doubt I'll be tempted much with how complete the classes feel compared to earlier editions. Again though, I definitely would be up for rolling a fun character that somehow manages to work. :D
Multiclassing can be, if done properly, incredibly strong. I freely admit I'm a min-maxer, though I alway RP my characters. I love the process of combining bits and pieces of different classes for awesome behavior. An analogy in magic the gathering would be deck brewing. I usually take one feature and then build around it
Example: Mirror Image is a cool spell, how can I maximize it? Firstly, I need high DEX. Thats obvious. Now what are interesting questions? What advantage can I gain from enemies attacking my images? How can I protect my images?
So, what classes or feats grant reactions that answer these questions. Fighter (Fighting Style: Protection), Sentinel spring to mind. Running with this, Rogue with Sentinel is a great way to trigger sneak attack twice a round. But what if your allies aren't around you? You're losing so much damage 1-2x sneak attack damage. Well there's a rogue archetype which helps with that. Swashbuckler. So you now have a Rogue Swashbuckler that needs mirror image. CHA based classes seem like the obvious choice. 3 levels of Warlock will get you 2x/shortrest mirror images! What else would be good for such a character? A familiar might give you advantage, which is great for a rogue. How about Patron? Here nothing stands out, so let's recap and move on to the next question.
So far we've decided we want to be a ROG*/WLK3, Swashbuckler, Pact of the Chain, and we want to take the Sentinel feat. Your reaction is spoken for (sentinel / uncanny dodge). Time to choose a race. Candidates: Human Variant, Half-Elf, Half-Drow, Drow, Hafling (lightfoot), Tabaxi. More questions follow... Then invocations, cantrips, and other spells. Lightning Lure and Booming/GF Blade are interesting here. Are other classes worth considering? What about other feats? What do you want to do with your bonus action? etc...
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I personally don't* like multiclassing, but if my players want to multiclass, that's fine. And even better if they do something that makes sense to their overall story.
I'm not into min-maxing, I like D&D for the stories you can make together - and if another class will help you tell the character's story then by all means, do it. Unique characters are fun, that goes for personalities as well as their skills and role.
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Thanks everyone for your feedback so far! DeathTouch I appreciate the break down; I can really tell how much you enjoy that just from reading.
I think my min/max experience was polluted because, in college, that's all the group wanted tone do and the RP was lost. Characters not min/maxing just felt irrelevant after a while so it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Not saying it's always bad, obviously it's something people enjoy.
Years ago I was a min/max player with low rp. Someday I meet a group of players who was more min/max player and less rp than me... and I was aware I actually don't like at all that style. So I move to other group and left behind the min/max, maybe so much, even in some battles my character didn't help because he was more interested in other issues (I remember a session, but playing another game, where my character was taking photos to a horde of zombies as a proof for his research about the paranormal meanwhile the group was fighting the zombies)
I don't have anything against multiclassing, but I need a good reason to do it. Like reflect a strong rp/story wise aftermath of the events, or a change/evolution of my PC's goals or ideals
Yes there should definitely be a reason. It's one of my goals as a DM to integrate my party so well into the world and story that their characters need to make life changing decisions like that.
I like having the ability to multi-class in the game because I think it creates a lot more room for differing character types without requiring a lot of additional rules to be written in. I'd rather see someone who chose to specialize in counter-magic playing a Rogue 1/Warlock 4 than trying to bring in some 3rd party "counterspeller" class or trying to talk WotC into making one. I'd rather get full use out of the rules we already have before we start adding new ones.
It really depends - mostly I will generally encourage my players to stick with their class, but there are times that multiclass makes sense.
Example 1
Player is the party cleric, having decided on Life domain, after advice from others. Due to wearing heavy armour and having a shield, he's naturally pretty tanky and enjoys getting into fights. There is a pivotal encounter for this character, where he is the last one standing, due to that tankiness and after the boss falls, he is able to heal up the rest of the group. The player clearly really enjoys the combat side of the game, so I suggest to him that his 3rd level cleric might think of taking a level in Fighter. He did so, taking Protection as his fighting style, allowing him to further keep the party alive. He's currently cleric 4 / fighter 2 and very happy.
Example 2
Barbarian - wanted to just fight, but on reaching 3rd level took the totem warrior path and became very invested in the animalistic spiritual side of the character. Ended up multiclassing into Druid, more for the shapechange than the spells. I did warn the player that he might find that this would leave him underpowered a little both on fighting and on spellcasting, but he had a good roleplay reason for it and it's worked out really well.
I am a theorycrafter at heart, so multiclassing offers a lot to me. The way you play your mechanical role in the party is no less important than the way you play your story role, and multiclassing allows you to reach many options in different ways. WotC can't print the perfect archetype for everyone, and instead of needing to brew your own each time you have an unsupported concept, you can simply multiclass to grab what you need. In 5e it's much less of a vertical power growth and more horizontal (meaning it keeps "power levels" closer to each other, just like the base classes are already fairly close). Single class characters are strong on their own, so you're going to be making fairly equal exchanges for increased versatility or specialization.
I'm not a fan of arbitrary DM rules (or even system rules) that restrict those options. People don't require in-depth lore based reasoning to make decisions in real life, and they often make decisions for no apparent logical reason. First and foremost, the person that needs to make sense of a character is the player themselves.
Great examples. I think Cleric in particular makes a lot of sense to multiclass, at least the other way around - from a story/rp perspective (my favourite kind). More so for the martial classes, archetypes or backgrounds.
The ground trembles as the beast bounds toward the you, blood and spit flying from its jagged fangs. Charging in with a monstrous cry, ready to finish the fighter/rogue/ranger. You ready your attack - knowing full well that with your health so low this will be your final chance to slay it before it devours you - and whisper a prayer to a deity of war/shadows/the hunt. And... <rolls dice> ...your sword/dagger/arrow strikes true, ending the savage animal and saving your life. Relieved to be alive, you look to the star-speckled sky and vow to repay the deity you believe guided your weapon.
Annnd next level, having visited said deity's temple, you multiclass into a Cleric, full of religious epiphanies.
But a story-based reason doesn't necessarily have to be so dramatic. Often mocked by your fellow adventurers? The butt of every party joke? Suddenly in the next battle... I... Would like... To rage! Boom. Your frustration has led to you taking a level in Barbarian. For some RP flavour, I'm imagining the only way for this poor Barbarian to activate their Rage would be to have their companions insult them.
Those are the sorts of reasons I might multiclass.
Every character I've played so far besides one has been a multiclass. To me, it's how you make your character unique, and it's one of the things about D&D that makes it fun.
I tend to not care much about "optimization", I just like to thing of fun concepts for characters that multiclassing opens up, or neat abilities that I think it would be cool for my current character to have.
Also, I seldom have characters that get past level 10 or so, so I don't care much for high level abilities.
It really depends - mostly I will generally encourage my players to stick with their class, but there are times that multiclass makes sense.
Example 1
Player is the party cleric, having decided on Life domain, after advice from others. Due to wearing heavy armour and having a shield, he's naturally pretty tanky and enjoys getting into fights. There is a pivotal encounter for this character, where he is the last one standing, due to that tankiness and after the boss falls, he is able to heal up the rest of the group. The player clearly really enjoys the combat side of the game, so I suggest to him that his 3rd level cleric might think of taking a level in Fighter. He did so, taking Protection as his fighting style, allowing him to further keep the party alive. He's currently cleric 4 / fighter 2 and very happy.
Example 2
Barbarian - wanted to just fight, but on reaching 3rd level took the totem warrior path and became very invested in the animalistic spiritual side of the character. Ended up multiclassing into Druid, more for the shapechange than the spells. I did warn the player that he might find that this would leave him underpowered a little both on fighting and on spellcasting, but he had a good roleplay reason for it and it's worked out really well.
These kinds of characters seem fun to me. The idea of adapting a character based on in-game events is always good in my opinion.
Another way is to start off with a base and try to design a character to fill that base. I'm still kicking the tires on a Lightfoot-Halfling Monk/Bard, with the entertainer background, who is a high-flying professional wrestler (like a luchador-esque fighter). I went with Monk/Bard instead of straight monk (which would probably be better for min/maxing) because I really like the Expertise feature (Acrobatics and Athletics, obv) and the 3rd level features of Lore/Valor for this type of character. I'd MAYBE min/max a little and go for level 6 Bard just to get 3rd level spells, better/more Bardic Inspiration, and Magical Secrets/Extra Attack. So, Monk 5 -> Bard 6 -> Monk the rest of the way.
What doesn't seem fun is building a background around a class build; like the Paladin/Warlock whose background was made up just to justify the warrant the free spell slots to min/max smite attacks. I mean a person who dedicated their life to serving a deity, suddenly being okay with turning their back on their deity for more power (or at most, gaining the power from another source, as if their deity's power wasn't enough for them). Now, if during the campaign the Paladin's god actually failed him/wasn't good enough and the player turned to another source for the power to do what his god couldn't, I could see MAYBE allowing them to multiclass Warlock. Though, I'd seriously talk to the player about making them an Oathbreaker, since most warlock patrons are evil by default (and turning your back on your god for more power is generally NOT a "good" thing). The only exception I could see is if they were an Ancients Paladin (not sure I've ever encountered someone who did that willingly WITHOUT the plan to multiclass Warlock), and the above situation happened, they could become an Archfey Warlock.
And yes, I KNOW, Vengeance Paladin says "by any means necessary", but comon, you ONLY picked that (and a non-good alignment) so that you could dip Warlock.
“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I have a general rule that if it doesn't fit the narrative, either for the world at large or your character's personal journey, you can't multiclass. Basically, if you can't justify it in-game, you can't do it.
A sorcerer wanting to take a level in barbarian 'because that seems super dope' wouldn't be allowed, but a sorcerer who ended up as the last character standing and went into a blind rage coming to with a level in barbarian is fully acceptable.
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My group tends not to Multi-class. We have a mix of experience in our group but I find that their character concepts (we are very RP heavy in our group) don't lend often to multi-classing. I know that mine do not when I am a player.
In college we used Gestalt rules a couple times but those games were often Min/Max video game-esque affairs where players were not encouraged to RP very much. So, having little experience in multi-classing, I wanted to reach out to everyone and see their thoughts. I notice a lot of class threads I have read here mention using Multi-Classing.
Why do you do it? Or why don't you?
I am a "purist" so I don't like multi-classing. Whenever possible I want to get the high-level features for a given class. But this is a personal choice.
Some features from different classes work very well together. In the end, I believe it is just how a player feel about his/her character.
I think it all depends on whether you're enjoying your character to be honest or if you think you'd have more fun otherwise. Like, I think I'd have fun going a super goofy build of like...a cleric warlock barbarian... something not hardcore optimized, and maybe a little silly, but still fun! There are also often times when it just makes sense from a story perspective- like if a Paladin completely reneges on his vows and decides that being a Paladin is not suited for him anymore, he could start taking levels in Barbarian or Fighter.
Obviously you'll have the people that just want to deal as much damage as possible, but that's how they enjoy the game as well. I don't think it's bad to multi-class at all, even if it is for that reason.
Ultimately, I'll multiclass if I feel like I need to. Unfortunately I haven't gotten to be a player in 5e yet (so far I'm the only one that's stepped up to the plate to DM). However, when I do, I doubt I'll be tempted much with how complete the classes feel compared to earlier editions. Again though, I definitely would be up for rolling a fun character that somehow manages to work. :D
Multiclassing can be, if done properly, incredibly strong. I freely admit I'm a min-maxer, though I alway RP my characters. I love the process of combining bits and pieces of different classes for awesome behavior. An analogy in magic the gathering would be deck brewing. I usually take one feature and then build around it
Example: Mirror Image is a cool spell, how can I maximize it?
Firstly, I need high DEX. Thats obvious. Now what are interesting questions?
What advantage can I gain from enemies attacking my images?
How can I protect my images?
So, what classes or feats grant reactions that answer these questions. Fighter (Fighting Style: Protection), Sentinel spring to mind.
Running with this, Rogue with Sentinel is a great way to trigger sneak attack twice a round.
But what if your allies aren't around you? You're losing so much damage 1-2x sneak attack damage.
Well there's a rogue archetype which helps with that. Swashbuckler. So you now have a Rogue Swashbuckler that needs mirror image.
CHA based classes seem like the obvious choice. 3 levels of Warlock will get you 2x/shortrest mirror images!
What else would be good for such a character? A familiar might give you advantage, which is great for a rogue.
How about Patron? Here nothing stands out, so let's recap and move on to the next question.
So far we've decided we want to be a ROG*/WLK3, Swashbuckler, Pact of the Chain, and we want to take the Sentinel feat. Your reaction is spoken for (sentinel / uncanny dodge).
Time to choose a race. Candidates: Human Variant, Half-Elf, Half-Drow, Drow, Hafling (lightfoot), Tabaxi.
More questions follow...
Then invocations, cantrips, and other spells. Lightning Lure and Booming/GF Blade are interesting here.
Are other classes worth considering? What about other feats?
What do you want to do with your bonus action?
etc...
I just really enjoy this process.
Unrepentent min/maxer and multiclass specialist
Right on, filcat.
I really prefer my players to just stick with something.
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I personally don't* like multiclassing, but if my players want to multiclass, that's fine. And even better if they do something that makes sense to their overall story.
edited for grammar. again. stupid phone.
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Multiclassing is great if it fits the character's concept and growth, I don't see any problem with multiclassing.
I'm not into min-maxing, I like D&D for the stories you can make together - and if another class will help you tell the character's story then by all means, do it. Unique characters are fun, that goes for personalities as well as their skills and role.
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Absolutely. I say all the time that I just get turned right off by "optimization". Completely bored by it.
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Thanks everyone for your feedback so far! DeathTouch I appreciate the break down; I can really tell how much you enjoy that just from reading.
I think my min/max experience was polluted because, in college, that's all the group wanted tone do and the RP was lost. Characters not min/maxing just felt irrelevant after a while so it left a bad taste in my mouth.
Not saying it's always bad, obviously it's something people enjoy.
Years ago I was a min/max player with low rp. Someday I meet a group of players who was more min/max player and less rp than me... and I was aware I actually don't like at all that style. So I move to other group and left behind the min/max, maybe so much, even in some battles my character didn't help because he was more interested in other issues (I remember a session, but playing another game, where my character was taking photos to a horde of zombies as a proof for his research about the paranormal meanwhile the group was fighting the zombies)
I don't have anything against multiclassing, but I need a good reason to do it. Like reflect a strong rp/story wise aftermath of the events, or a change/evolution of my PC's goals or ideals
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Yes there should definitely be a reason. It's one of my goals as a DM to integrate my party so well into the world and story that their characters need to make life changing decisions like that.
I like multiclassing and single class, the characters story is the key for me and the fun of the players and the DM.
I like having the ability to multi-class in the game because I think it creates a lot more room for differing character types without requiring a lot of additional rules to be written in. I'd rather see someone who chose to specialize in counter-magic playing a Rogue 1/Warlock 4 than trying to bring in some 3rd party "counterspeller" class or trying to talk WotC into making one. I'd rather get full use out of the rules we already have before we start adding new ones.
It really depends - mostly I will generally encourage my players to stick with their class, but there are times that multiclass makes sense.
Example 1
Player is the party cleric, having decided on Life domain, after advice from others. Due to wearing heavy armour and having a shield, he's naturally pretty tanky and enjoys getting into fights. There is a pivotal encounter for this character, where he is the last one standing, due to that tankiness and after the boss falls, he is able to heal up the rest of the group. The player clearly really enjoys the combat side of the game, so I suggest to him that his 3rd level cleric might think of taking a level in Fighter. He did so, taking Protection as his fighting style, allowing him to further keep the party alive. He's currently cleric 4 / fighter 2 and very happy.
Example 2
Barbarian - wanted to just fight, but on reaching 3rd level took the totem warrior path and became very invested in the animalistic spiritual side of the character. Ended up multiclassing into Druid, more for the shapechange than the spells. I did warn the player that he might find that this would leave him underpowered a little both on fighting and on spellcasting, but he had a good roleplay reason for it and it's worked out really well.
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I am a theorycrafter at heart, so multiclassing offers a lot to me. The way you play your mechanical role in the party is no less important than the way you play your story role, and multiclassing allows you to reach many options in different ways. WotC can't print the perfect archetype for everyone, and instead of needing to brew your own each time you have an unsupported concept, you can simply multiclass to grab what you need. In 5e it's much less of a vertical power growth and more horizontal (meaning it keeps "power levels" closer to each other, just like the base classes are already fairly close). Single class characters are strong on their own, so you're going to be making fairly equal exchanges for increased versatility or specialization.
I'm not a fan of arbitrary DM rules (or even system rules) that restrict those options. People don't require in-depth lore based reasoning to make decisions in real life, and they often make decisions for no apparent logical reason. First and foremost, the person that needs to make sense of a character is the player themselves.
Great examples. I think Cleric in particular makes a lot of sense to multiclass, at least the other way around - from a story/rp perspective (my favourite kind). More so for the martial classes, archetypes or backgrounds.
The ground trembles as the beast bounds toward the you, blood and spit flying from its jagged fangs. Charging in with a monstrous cry, ready to finish the fighter/rogue/ranger. You ready your attack - knowing full well that with your health so low this will be your final chance to slay it before it devours you - and whisper a prayer to a deity of war/shadows/the hunt. And... <rolls dice> ...your sword/dagger/arrow strikes true, ending the savage animal and saving your life. Relieved to be alive, you look to the star-speckled sky and vow to repay the deity you believe guided your weapon.
Annnd next level, having visited said deity's temple, you multiclass into a Cleric, full of religious epiphanies.
But a story-based reason doesn't necessarily have to be so dramatic. Often mocked by your fellow adventurers? The butt of every party joke? Suddenly in the next battle... I... Would like... To rage! Boom. Your frustration has led to you taking a level in Barbarian. For some RP flavour, I'm imagining the only way for this poor Barbarian to activate their Rage would be to have their companions insult them.
Those are the sorts of reasons I might multiclass.
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Every character I've played so far besides one has been a multiclass. To me, it's how you make your character unique, and it's one of the things about D&D that makes it fun.
I tend to not care much about "optimization", I just like to thing of fun concepts for characters that multiclassing opens up, or neat abilities that I think it would be cool for my current character to have.
Also, I seldom have characters that get past level 10 or so, so I don't care much for high level abilities.
What doesn't seem fun is building a background around a class build; like the Paladin/Warlock whose background was made up just to justify the warrant the free spell slots to min/max smite attacks. I mean a person who dedicated their life to serving a deity, suddenly being okay with turning their back on their deity for more power (or at most, gaining the power from another source, as if their deity's power wasn't enough for them). Now, if during the campaign the Paladin's god actually failed him/wasn't good enough and the player turned to another source for the power to do what his god couldn't, I could see MAYBE allowing them to multiclass Warlock. Though, I'd seriously talk to the player about making them an Oathbreaker, since most warlock patrons are evil by default (and turning your back on your god for more power is generally NOT a "good" thing). The only exception I could see is if they were an Ancients Paladin (not sure I've ever encountered someone who did that willingly WITHOUT the plan to multiclass Warlock), and the above situation happened, they could become an Archfey Warlock.
And yes, I KNOW, Vengeance Paladin says "by any means necessary", but comon, you ONLY picked that (and a non-good alignment) so that you could dip Warlock.
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“It is a better world. A place where we are responsible for our actions, where we can be kind to one another because we want to and because it is the right thing to do instead of being frightened into behaving by the threat of divine punishment.” ― Oramis, Eldest by Christopher Paolini.
I have a general rule that if it doesn't fit the narrative, either for the world at large or your character's personal journey, you can't multiclass. Basically, if you can't justify it in-game, you can't do it.
A sorcerer wanting to take a level in barbarian 'because that seems super dope' wouldn't be allowed, but a sorcerer who ended up as the last character standing and went into a blind rage coming to with a level in barbarian is fully acceptable.