While this topic has been talked about elsewhere, I thought it deserved its own dedicated thread. Due to the Cleric UA and the video, it seems clear that essentially all classes will be waiting to get their subclasses until 3rd level. The three classes most affected by this are the Cleric itself, Sorcerer, and Warlock. Most Clerics will obviously be dedicated to their chosen god right from first level and a particular god may point towards the subclass choice, but I think (and due to the lack of complaints I have found so far) there is no problem delaying the actual mechanical aspects of subclass features until 3rd level.
That being said, I have noticed a great deal of hand wringing over Sorcerer and Warlock in anticipation of this change, which I feel is unwarranted. I see no problem with a character wielding inherent magical power for a couple of levels before the true source of the power is revealed or manifests mechanically. On a similar point, just because a Warlock has a certain patron from the beginning, it seems perfectly reasonable that the mechanical aspects related to the particular patron might need to wait until 3rd level (and this maybe even opens the possibility of the 1st level Warlock not even understanding who/what their patron is). There is nothing stopping a player in either case from choosing thematic spells in anticipation of the "actual" subclass and its theme/benefits. I think in 5e, most players with characters in classes with 2nd or 3rd level subclass choices have a pretty good idea from the beginning of what subclass they will choose and handle their creation and development appropriately.
Paladins took their oaths at 3rd level and no one had a problem with that. Same here. A cleric worships a deity from the very beginning, but only by 3rd level they deserve special powers from that deity. A sorcerer has magic from the start, but only by 3rd level their particular origin manifests. A warlock studies occultism for the first 2 levels, at level 3 actually makes a pact. Everything makes sense, there's no ground for ramifications. Subclasses at level 3 is a right decision.
Paladins took their oaths at 3rd level and no one had a problem with that. Same here. A cleric worships a deity from the very beginning, but only by 3rd level they deserve special powers from that deity. A sorcerer has magic from the start, but only by 3rd level their particular origin manifests. A warlock studies occultism for the first 2 levels, at level 3 actually makes a pact. Everything makes sense, there's no ground for ramifications. Subclasses at level 3 is a right decision.
Agreed. I could even argue that level 4 could be appropriate as the marker of the end of vanilla tier 1 play and preparation for tier 2 at level 5. But that's probably a bridge too far for most people.
Warlocks as they are now really have two subclass choices. They could be planning to reduce it to one, but they could also be pushing more of the features out to the pact instead of the patron.
As for Sorcerers, they could push the choice to third, or do a similar thing to the warlock, where your source of power is separate from the subclass.
And if they do that for both Warlock and Sorcerer, will they give Wizards parallel structure?
Warlocks as they are now really have two subclass choices. They could be planning to reduce it to one, but they could also be pushing more of the features out to the pact instead of the patron.
As for Sorcerers, they could push the choice to third, or do a similar thing to the warlock, where your source of power is separate from the subclass.
And if they do that for both Warlock and Sorcerer, will they give Wizards parallel structure?
If we look too Cleric, I think Pacts are likely to become like Holy Orders are for Cleric, Patron will be the big choice for Warlocks and so likely the level 3 subclass choice.
As for sorcerer, it's not a big issue either, the only issue will be wild magic, since you won't get wild magic at level 1/2 but this is also likely a good thing, no more wild magic sorcerers fireballing their party due to surge at level 1.
Paladins took their oaths at 3rd level and no one had a problem with that. Same here. A cleric worships a deity from the very beginning, but only by 3rd level they deserve special powers from that deity. A sorcerer has magic from the start, but only by 3rd level their particular origin manifests. A warlock studies occultism for the first 2 levels, at level 3 actually makes a pact. Everything makes sense, there's no ground for ramifications. Subclasses at level 3 is a right decision.
1 of the biggest complaints for paladins was that anybody could take it without be restricted by an oath if they had just 1 Paladin level.
For Sorcerers, I can actually see Font of Magic being a feature at Level 1 instead of Level 2, and Metamagic coming online at Level 2 instead of Level 3.
I will say many experienced 5e tables already skip level 1 and possibly 2.
I predict many 1 dnd groups will adopt the later level starts.
Wotc seems to be compressing the play experience inward. Few tables make it to later levels so they moved it inward. This seems to create a smaller range of play. Probably in hopes of a better narrative growth experience.
As some have suggested the story implications might be the bigger impact than the mechanical ones.(single class wise)
What makes a warlock a warlock and not just a member of the mage group is at the start, they make a pact in order to be a warlock.
What makes a sorcerer a sorcerer and not just a member of the mage group is the 'blood' in their vanes. (Level 1)
What makes warlock a warlock is their pursuit of forbidden knowledge and occult studies. And sorcerer's innate magic is available at level 1, just the particular mutation manifests at level 3.
But that doesn't mean that is enough to take a single level in a ninja class and properly be considered a ninja.
Level 1 wizard is properly considered to be a wizard. Level 1 monk is properly considered to be a monk. Level 1 ranger is properly considered to be a ranger. Does it mean that DnD is giving player characters too much credit?
What makes a warlock a warlock and not just a member of the mage group is at the start, they make a pact in order to be a warlock.
What makes a sorcerer a sorcerer and not just a member of the mage group is the 'blood' in their vanes. (Level 1)
What makes warlock a warlock is their pursuit of forbidden knowledge and occult studies. And sorcerer's innate magic is available at level 1, just the particular mutation manifests at level 3.
But that doesn't mean that is enough to take a single level in a ninja class and properly be considered a ninja.
Level 1 wizard is properly considered to be a wizard. Level 1 monk is properly considered to be a monk. Level 1 ranger is properly considered to be a ranger. Does it mean that DnD is giving player characters too much credit?
Level 1 should be where the feature that makes the class the class is picked up and it should only scale by taking more levels in that same class plus never be picked up by taking another class. Otherwise, we end up with a situation where people don't see the class as that class like how the Ranger class in the Experts U.A. is seen as a Gish class and not a Ranger class.
With more things tying into proficiency bonus, I think they are opening the door to dipping a single level on a class with an ability that is still going to scale as the character levels up.
I don't believe we should be treating the patron and the subclass as the same thing. This will be a redesign after all. The pact symbol could be granted at a deeper connection symbolized by what you take. (For reference I am not normally a warlock player)
Sorcerer is a little harder to justify but I justify itin terms of narrative progress it's a deeper manifestation rather than a choice.
Level 1 should be where the feature that makes the class the class is picked up and it should only scale by taking more levels in that same class plus never be picked up by taking another class. Otherwise, we end up with a situation where people don't see the class as that class like how the Ranger class in the Experts U.A. is seen as a Gish class and not a Ranger class.
What's wrong with ranger being a primal gish? It's pretty natural. Primal spells/rituals fill out much of exploration needs, and expertise covers the mundane aspects. Besides, sorcerers' thing is metamagic, not subclass.
Level 1 should be where the feature that makes the class the class is picked up and it should only scale by taking more levels in that same class plus never be picked up by taking another class. Otherwise, we end up with a situation where people don't see the class as that class like how the Ranger class in the Experts U.A. is seen as a Gish class and not a Ranger class.
What's wrong with ranger being a primal gish? It's pretty natural. Primal spells/rituals fill out much of exploration needs, and expertise covers the mundane aspects. Besides, sorcerers' thing is metamagic, not subclass.
YEP, and I think what we are likely to see for warlock is Invocations at level 1, Level 2 pact choice, Level 3 Patron Choice. Warlocks are hard to create without choice.
Wizard my bet right now is Level 1 Arcane recovery and "Book Rituals" I believe they will always have access to all ritual spells in the arcane spell list. I do not believe they will have to hunt down and spend money to scribe spells anymore. Level 2 "Spell school specialization", Level 3 Subclass. I think a big part of the reason subclasses are being drastically reduced for wizard, similar to cleric, is they are separating some of the things that you would get from your subclass and turning it generic. Spell school specialization will just be an ability where you pick a school and "you can change a spell preparation you have to one of the spells you specialize in on a short rest". As you level they may let you specialize in more schools of magic to fill out the otherwise baron wizard class feature list. Now that they are normalizing spell preparation.
Level 1 should be where the feature that makes the class the class is picked up and it should only scale by taking more levels in that same class plus never be picked up by taking another class. Otherwise, we end up with a situation where people don't see the class as that class like how the Ranger class in the Experts U.A. is seen as a Gish class and not a Ranger class.
What's wrong with ranger being a primal gish? It's pretty natural. Primal spells/rituals fill out much of exploration needs, and expertise covers the mundane aspects. Besides, sorcerers' thing is metamagic, not subclass.
YEP, and I think what we are likely to see for warlock is Invocations at level 1, Level 2 pact choice, Level 3 Patron Choice. Warlocks are hard to create without choice.
Wizard my bet right now is Level 1 Arcane recovery and "Book Rituals" I believe they will always have access to all ritual spells in the arcane spell list. I do not believe they will have to hunt down and spend money to scribe spells anymore. Level 2 "Spell school specialization", Level 3 Subclass. I think a big part of the reason subclasses are being drastically reduced for wizard, similar to cleric, is they are separating some of the things that you would get from your subclass and turning it generic. Spell school specialization will just be an ability where you pick a school and "you can change a spell preparation you have to one of the spells you specialize in on a short rest". As you level they may let you specialize in more schools of magic to fill out the otherwise baron wizard class feature list. Now that they are normalizing spell preparation.
That's not a bad theory. I do hope there's a way other classes can pick up the book ritual option though. I currently have the Wizard Ritual Caster Feat on my Sorcerer, and I use it a lot to expance my spell rotation. Only being able to cast spells you have prepared as rituals would cut the utility of rituals a LOT.
YEP, and I think what we are likely to see for warlock is Invocations at level 1, Level 2 pact choice, Level 3 Patron Choice. Warlocks are hard to create without choice.
Wizard my bet right now is Level 1 Arcane recovery and "Book Rituals" I believe they will always have access to all ritual spells in the arcane spell list. I do not believe they will have to hunt down and spend money to scribe spells anymore. Level 2 "Spell school specialization", Level 3 Subclass. I think a big part of the reason subclasses are being drastically reduced for wizard, similar to cleric, is they are separating some of the things that you would get from your subclass and turning it generic. Spell school specialization will just be an ability where you pick a school and "you can change a spell preparation you have to one of the spells you specialize in on a short rest". As you level they may let you specialize in more schools of magic to fill out the otherwise baron wizard class feature list. Now that they are normalizing spell preparation.
Well... I agree on most parts, arcane recovery is a good idea as it is a class feature that scales with class level, thus not a cherry for multiclassers to pick, spell school specialization - also likely to be as you say, judging by clerics' Holy Order feature, however, I believe they'll keep the scroll hunting. Arcane spell list is the biggest and most versatile, and no class should get access to it without some kind of limitation or price. Bard, as we can see, has limitation - only half of spell schools. Warlock and sorcerer are likely to keep some sort of limitation as well, while wizard's thing was having no limits, but having to pay the price - in gold needed to copy the spells, and in risk of losing the spell book. I just find it unlikely that they'll change this part of design.
YEP, and I think what we are likely to see for warlock is Invocations at level 1, Level 2 pact choice, Level 3 Patron Choice. Warlocks are hard to create without choice.
Wizard my bet right now is Level 1 Arcane recovery and "Book Rituals" I believe they will always have access to all ritual spells in the arcane spell list. I do not believe they will have to hunt down and spend money to scribe spells anymore. Level 2 "Spell school specialization", Level 3 Subclass. I think a big part of the reason subclasses are being drastically reduced for wizard, similar to cleric, is they are separating some of the things that you would get from your subclass and turning it generic. Spell school specialization will just be an ability where you pick a school and "you can change a spell preparation you have to one of the spells you specialize in on a short rest". As you level they may let you specialize in more schools of magic to fill out the otherwise baron wizard class feature list. Now that they are normalizing spell preparation.
Well... I agree on most parts, arcane recovery is a good idea as it is a class feature that scales with class level, thus not a cherry for multiclassers to pick, spell school specialization - also likely to be as you say, judging by clerics' Holy Order feature, however, I believe they'll keep the scroll hunting. Arcane spell list is the biggest and most versatile, and no class should get access to it without some kind of limitation or price. Bard, as we can see, has limitation - only half of spell schools. Warlock and sorcerer are likely to keep some sort of limitation as well, while wizard's thing was having no limits, but having to pay the price - in gold needed to copy the spells, and in risk of losing the spell book. I just find it unlikely that they'll change this part of design.
Considering the only real benefit of being a wizard IS having the full access to the arcane spell list, and the way they are doing prepared spells.... I am not sure. Because, at the end of the day, the wizard is still only going to be able to prepare and cast the same number of spells as everybody else, in the same way as everybody else, minus the flexibility of things sorcerers get like font of magic. The flexibility and versatility of their list is the only thing that really defines them as a class, it is why they have a d6 for health and no armor training. Not to mention, the "buying scrolls" thing is another "Mother may I" mechanic, which they have specifically stated they want to move away from. Some GM's can go an entire campaign and the wizard will never get a scroll and other games the Wizard fills the book with every spell. Further, the wizards were already picking a lot of spells on level up as it was, more than they could prepare at any given point in time. Which means they were already picking their "best" spells from level up anyway and anything they got from scrolls was just icing. Which is what would happen if you just let them know the entire list. Preparations are the real limiter, not so much spells known.
Though being able to always cast ANY ritual spell without having to prepare it MAY be a bit much.
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While this topic has been talked about elsewhere, I thought it deserved its own dedicated thread. Due to the Cleric UA and the video, it seems clear that essentially all classes will be waiting to get their subclasses until 3rd level. The three classes most affected by this are the Cleric itself, Sorcerer, and Warlock. Most Clerics will obviously be dedicated to their chosen god right from first level and a particular god may point towards the subclass choice, but I think (and due to the lack of complaints I have found so far) there is no problem delaying the actual mechanical aspects of subclass features until 3rd level.
That being said, I have noticed a great deal of hand wringing over Sorcerer and Warlock in anticipation of this change, which I feel is unwarranted. I see no problem with a character wielding inherent magical power for a couple of levels before the true source of the power is revealed or manifests mechanically. On a similar point, just because a Warlock has a certain patron from the beginning, it seems perfectly reasonable that the mechanical aspects related to the particular patron might need to wait until 3rd level (and this maybe even opens the possibility of the 1st level Warlock not even understanding who/what their patron is). There is nothing stopping a player in either case from choosing thematic spells in anticipation of the "actual" subclass and its theme/benefits. I think in 5e, most players with characters in classes with 2nd or 3rd level subclass choices have a pretty good idea from the beginning of what subclass they will choose and handle their creation and development appropriately.
Paladins took their oaths at 3rd level and no one had a problem with that. Same here. A cleric worships a deity from the very beginning, but only by 3rd level they deserve special powers from that deity. A sorcerer has magic from the start, but only by 3rd level their particular origin manifests. A warlock studies occultism for the first 2 levels, at level 3 actually makes a pact. Everything makes sense, there's no ground for ramifications. Subclasses at level 3 is a right decision.
Agreed. I could even argue that level 4 could be appropriate as the marker of the end of vanilla tier 1 play and preparation for tier 2 at level 5. But that's probably a bridge too far for most people.
Warlocks as they are now really have two subclass choices. They could be planning to reduce it to one, but they could also be pushing more of the features out to the pact instead of the patron.
As for Sorcerers, they could push the choice to third, or do a similar thing to the warlock, where your source of power is separate from the subclass.
And if they do that for both Warlock and Sorcerer, will they give Wizards parallel structure?
If we look too Cleric, I think Pacts are likely to become like Holy Orders are for Cleric, Patron will be the big choice for Warlocks and so likely the level 3 subclass choice.
As for sorcerer, it's not a big issue either, the only issue will be wild magic, since you won't get wild magic at level 1/2 but this is also likely a good thing, no more wild magic sorcerers fireballing their party due to surge at level 1.
1 of the biggest complaints for paladins was that anybody could take it without be restricted by an oath if they had just 1 Paladin level.
For Sorcerers, I can actually see Font of Magic being a feature at Level 1 instead of Level 2, and Metamagic coming online at Level 2 instead of Level 3.
Anybody can wear camo and learn to shoot a gun without joining the military.
I will say many experienced 5e tables already skip level 1 and possibly 2.
I predict many 1 dnd groups will adopt the later level starts.
Wotc seems to be compressing the play experience inward. Few tables make it to later levels so they moved it inward. This seems to create a smaller range of play. Probably in hopes of a better narrative growth experience.
As some have suggested the story implications might be the bigger impact than the mechanical ones.(single class wise)
What makes a warlock a warlock and not just a member of the mage group is at the start, they make a pact in order to be a warlock.
What makes a sorcerer a sorcerer and not just a member of the mage group is the 'blood' in their vanes. (Level 1)
The expert groups are having Expertise. Ranger and rogue get it a level 1 while Bard gets it at level 2.
The priest group may be getting Channel Divinity for Clerc, Druid and Paladin
Idea. Mage group gets Arcane Conduit feature for the group members.
But that doesn't mean that is enough to take a single level in a ninja class and properly be considered a ninja.
What makes warlock a warlock is their pursuit of forbidden knowledge and occult studies. And sorcerer's innate magic is available at level 1, just the particular mutation manifests at level 3.
Level 1 wizard is properly considered to be a wizard. Level 1 monk is properly considered to be a monk. Level 1 ranger is properly considered to be a ranger. Does it mean that DnD is giving player characters too much credit?
Level 1 should be where the feature that makes the class the class is picked up and it should only scale by taking more levels in that same class plus never be picked up by taking another class. Otherwise, we end up with a situation where people don't see the class as that class like how the Ranger class in the Experts U.A. is seen as a Gish class and not a Ranger class.
With more things tying into proficiency bonus, I think they are opening the door to dipping a single level on a class with an ability that is still going to scale as the character levels up.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I don't believe we should be treating the patron and the subclass as the same thing. This will be a redesign after all. The pact symbol could be granted at a deeper connection symbolized by what you take. (For reference I am not normally a warlock player)
Sorcerer is a little harder to justify but I justify itin terms of narrative progress it's a deeper manifestation rather than a choice.
What's wrong with ranger being a primal gish? It's pretty natural. Primal spells/rituals fill out much of exploration needs, and expertise covers the mundane aspects. Besides, sorcerers' thing is metamagic, not subclass.
YEP, and I think what we are likely to see for warlock is Invocations at level 1, Level 2 pact choice, Level 3 Patron Choice. Warlocks are hard to create without choice.
Wizard my bet right now is Level 1 Arcane recovery and "Book Rituals" I believe they will always have access to all ritual spells in the arcane spell list. I do not believe they will have to hunt down and spend money to scribe spells anymore. Level 2 "Spell school specialization", Level 3 Subclass. I think a big part of the reason subclasses are being drastically reduced for wizard, similar to cleric, is they are separating some of the things that you would get from your subclass and turning it generic. Spell school specialization will just be an ability where you pick a school and "you can change a spell preparation you have to one of the spells you specialize in on a short rest". As you level they may let you specialize in more schools of magic to fill out the otherwise baron wizard class feature list. Now that they are normalizing spell preparation.
That's not a bad theory. I do hope there's a way other classes can pick up the book ritual option though. I currently have the Wizard Ritual Caster Feat on my Sorcerer, and I use it a lot to expance my spell rotation. Only being able to cast spells you have prepared as rituals would cut the utility of rituals a LOT.
Well... I agree on most parts, arcane recovery is a good idea as it is a class feature that scales with class level, thus not a cherry for multiclassers to pick, spell school specialization - also likely to be as you say, judging by clerics' Holy Order feature, however, I believe they'll keep the scroll hunting. Arcane spell list is the biggest and most versatile, and no class should get access to it without some kind of limitation or price. Bard, as we can see, has limitation - only half of spell schools. Warlock and sorcerer are likely to keep some sort of limitation as well, while wizard's thing was having no limits, but having to pay the price - in gold needed to copy the spells, and in risk of losing the spell book. I just find it unlikely that they'll change this part of design.
Considering the only real benefit of being a wizard IS having the full access to the arcane spell list, and the way they are doing prepared spells.... I am not sure. Because, at the end of the day, the wizard is still only going to be able to prepare and cast the same number of spells as everybody else, in the same way as everybody else, minus the flexibility of things sorcerers get like font of magic. The flexibility and versatility of their list is the only thing that really defines them as a class, it is why they have a d6 for health and no armor training. Not to mention, the "buying scrolls" thing is another "Mother may I" mechanic, which they have specifically stated they want to move away from. Some GM's can go an entire campaign and the wizard will never get a scroll and other games the Wizard fills the book with every spell. Further, the wizards were already picking a lot of spells on level up as it was, more than they could prepare at any given point in time. Which means they were already picking their "best" spells from level up anyway and anything they got from scrolls was just icing. Which is what would happen if you just let them know the entire list. Preparations are the real limiter, not so much spells known.
Though being able to always cast ANY ritual spell without having to prepare it MAY be a bit much.