Except that none of what you have added is necessary; a Magic action by its very nature is an unlevelled magical effect. If Metamagic is supposed to work with it then that would be for Metamagic or the Magic action rules to define.
Instead of bending over backwards to make a weak case for cantrips, take the two seconds to consider what the feature actually needs in order to function.
2. So you cut the narrative description so you wouldn’t increase the word count, but literally didn’t answer the more important question. Why? If the cantrip does the same thing as the feature why can’t it be a cantrip?
I showed the only change required to the text for it to function as a class feature; since it doesn't need to be a cantrip, why should it be a cantrip?
3. This new version is far superior in that aspect. The original tome pact gives you zero rituals. Book of ancient secrets is not a 2014 PHB invocation. While I believe it should be added to the 2024 PHB we might get it in a later book. Also the +Cha to all cantrips offered by the book is better than agonizing blast because the book also works on eldritch blast which means you just freed up a invocation.
The original ancient secrets gives you far more rituals overall, meanwhile your argument for the upgrade is that eldritch blast is still by far the biggest winner? So in other words it's a better option for the one build I don't want. So again, worse.
4. You also can choose what class you pick. What’s your point?
One is a choice, the other isn't. Why is that so hard to understand?
Someone else already pointed out they didn’t limit your cantrip choices (2) they literally gave you a free cantrip on the side. You still argued with them.
Because Warlock getting an extra cantrip should be a benefit to all Warlock players, not the one and only one type being catered for.
You're effectively arguing that I should be happy that in return for all the things that I liked about Warlock that are being lost, I'm getting something for free that I do not want? Do you not see the problem with that equation?
Yes class is also a choice, but changes to a class should not make me want to not choose it anymore; that's not progress.
But whatever, the survey is open now so I'll post my feedback there rather than wasting anymore of my time on this thread; hopefully Wizards of the Coast at least would like Warlock to appeal to more players rather than less.
2. It’s a cantrip because that’s the way they wrote it. Probably to save on word count, possibly for other reasons I don’t know. What’s important that if you don’t have a reason it should be a feature instead of a cantrip why am I even debating this with you. If it doesn’t change anything why do you care?
3. You aren’t reading. You are just arguing just to argue. I said Book of Ancient Secrets isn’t a PHB invocation. It might come in a later book. The original Pact of the Tome doesn’t give you any rituals. The New Tome is way better!!
4. It’s hard to understand because I stated a choice. I said you choose your class. So both are choices.
This entire game needs a to be remade if every feature has to benefit every player. Not every fighter wants heavy armor training. They should be able to get something to make up for that loss in AC. Not every Barbarian is STR based they should get something to make up for that loss in rage damage. I could go on and on. Lol this is ridiculous.
EB was a warlock feature in every edition warlock existed until 5e. Then they made it a warlock spell list only Cantrip.
Nitpick. The 4e core warlock did offer Eldritch Blast as an at-will option, but there were other options, and many builds that revolved around not using it at all. And that was before the Binder and Blade options in the Essentials line. Eldritch Blast was certainly the defining feature of the 3e class, but I wouldn't say that's "every edition" before 5e.
This argument must be a joke. 4e at wills are the most defining mechanics in that game. I can’t remember any just attacking in that game. Even though I remember that being something you could do. I think your choices were Eldritch blast and Eldritch strike in 4e. But this is a pointless argument for me to have because I mostly skipped 4e. I will point out that in 5e EB and hex have multiple invocations supporting them. That means the designers felt they were defining parts of the class.
This argument must be a joke. 4e at wills are the most defining mechanics in that game. I can’t remember any just attacking in that game. Even though I remember that being something you could do. I think your choices were Eldritch blast and Eldritch strike in 4e. But this is a pointless argument for me to have because I mostly skipped 4e. I will point out that in 5e EB and hex have multiple invocations supporting them. That means the designers felt they were defining parts of the class.
So... you're making arguments about 4e warlock without actually understanding the 4e warlock? Gotcha.
Here's the thing - you got two at-will abilities as a warlock - usually something like Hellish Rebuke or Eyebite that came from your pact, and then a choice of a second one, which included Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike (which is a weapon attack, not a blast). The 4e blade warlock focused on using their weapons, not EB (though they did get it as a backup ranged option). The 4e binder warlock (precursor to chain) didn't even have the option to take EB.
Many of the non-Essential warlock builds often found ways to boost your pact-specific at-will and use that, and there were several good builds for Eldritch Strike. Using Hellish Rebuke and getting extra damage after the enemy hit you, Eyebite to make yourself invisible before doing a charge with Eldritch Strike, etc. Eldritch Blast did have a few builds (usually using dragon-themed stuff for some reason), and it was what you used if a warlord called for an off turn attack, but it was just one choice amongst many. And, make no mistake, it absolutely was a choice. Without taking feats or magic items to improve it, it ended up lackluster; there were notable opportunity costs to being a good Eldritch Blaster.
This argument must be a joke. 4e at wills are the most defining mechanics in that game. I can’t remember any just attacking in that game. Even though I remember that being something you could do. I think your choices were Eldritch blast and Eldritch strike in 4e. But this is a pointless argument for me to have because I mostly skipped 4e. I will point out that in 5e EB and hex have multiple invocations supporting them. That means the designers felt they were defining parts of the class.
So... you're making arguments about 4e warlock without actually understanding the 4e warlock? Gotcha.
Here's the thing - you got two at-will abilities as a warlock - usually something like Hellish Rebuke or Eyebite that came from your pact, and then a choice of a second one, which included Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike (which is a weapon attack, not a blast). The 4e blade warlock focused on using their weapons, not EB (though they did get it as a backup ranged option). The 4e binder warlock (precursor to chain) didn't even have the option to take EB.
Many of the non-Essential warlock builds often found ways to boost your pact-specific at-will and use that, and there were several good builds for Eldritch Strike. Using Hellish Rebuke and getting extra damage after the enemy hit you, Eyebite to make yourself invisible before doing a charge with Eldritch Strike, etc. Eldritch Blast did have a few builds (usually using dragon-themed stuff for some reason), and it was what you used if a warlord called for an off turn attack, but it was just one choice amongst many. And, make no mistake, it absolutely was a choice. Without taking feats or magic items to improve it, it ended up lackluster; there were notable opportunity costs to being a good Eldritch Blaster.
Again you joke. I said I mostly skipped it. That means I didn’t fully skip it. I was acknowledging that maybe you played more than me so it’s pointless for me to have that argument, but there are tons of Archives so I can spend some time on Google if you want to have a pointless debate. What is clear is that in 4e warlocks had Eldritch blast and no other class had it. Honestly until Essentials which I was gone before that you picked Eldritch blast or Eldritch strike. From your explanation you might not have used them choosing to improve something else but it was a choice between Eldritch blast and Eldritch smite. One of those was on your character. So my suggestion now is to create a version of Eldritch Strike to give people a choice with the EB feature so I can stop having pointless debates.
Being able to switch the spells offers versitility. The book of shadows is better 5th level feature is better than Agonizing Blast because it works for all cantrips. They won’t make agonizing blast work on all cantrips unless the increased it to a 5th level invocation. That would serve no purpose.
Sorry, I'm calling NONSENSE on this. Having more options is not inherently better, Eldritch Blast is designed to be a spell-equivalent of a weapon. You can't just take other spells not designed for that purpose and make them equivalent in damage to Eldritch Blast. Eldritch Blast will ALWAYS be the best damage cantrip using any other cantrip will be worse damage-wise so you had better be making good use of the rider that comes with it. It would be FAR simpler to just add extra invocations that modify Eldritch Blast, since they at least allow other invocations to stack on top as well (AB, Repelling, etc..).
e.g.
Frost Blast - When you cast Eldritch Blast you can choose to have it deal cold damage instead of force damage, if you do so the first creature you hit with this Eldritch Blast has its movement speed reduced by 10 ft until the start of your next turn.
Fire Blast - When you cast Eldritch Blast you can choose to have it deal fire damage instead of force damage, if you do so it ignites flammable object... ...
This is just utter foolishness because EB will ALWAYS be better because it has the built in Extra Attack feature. It's like building an EK and saying all of its cantrips should be equivalent in power to using a longbow. The ONLY alternative is the remove Eldritch Blast entirely and turning Hex into a warlock feature that is mathematically equivalent to Sneak Attack, and thus convert the Warlock into the magic equivalent of a Rogue instead of the magic equivalent of a fighter.
I’m calling non sense on you. A lot of the stuff y’all are looking for came in later books. The new tome boosting all cantrips is better because if you need a rider you still get to add +Cha and can still use EB without spending an invocation on AB. Harravik doesn’t want to use EB at all, but you could take tome pact and at level 5 switch AB for another invocation because you don’t need it anymore. They aren’t going to make EB even better than it already is by giving it elemental riders. Clearly Harravik is proof not everyone wants to cast EB every turn.
Then they suffer being unoptimized if they choose to play a warlock. Both Sorcerer and Wizard offer arcane casters that are not built around being an EB blaster. It's like playing a STR-based Monk or a DEX-based Barbarian or a WIS-based Ranger. Sure you can do it if you want to, but you won't be as powerful as those that choose to play the class according to type. Warlock offers two optimizable play-styles : blade-lock and EB-lock. If you aren't interested in either of those then don't play a warlock, Harravik has said warlock doesn't appeal to them and that's fine! Not every class needs to appeal to every player!
Well you are under optimized just by picking warlock in the first place instead of sorcerer or wizard. I think the designers are vastly over estimating EB. With the number of encounters people seem to have its basically saying EB is just as good as a fireball every round. EB lands somewhere between 1st and 2nd level spell in power, wizards/sorcerers etc can save all their 1st level spells for shields and cast a leveled spell every round pretty early in the game at most tables. They need to go back to the next playtest when wizards had something like
I agree that the number of spell slots for full casters needs to be curtailed significantly. We shouldn't be balancing the game around spellcasters casting a 4th or 5th level spell every round.
I’ve got a stupid question…would rolling Patron Spells and Pact Magic together ameliorate some hostility here? Add one more free cast per day, say at level 10, and give it the auto scale from before? Just a thought
Creating a complex custom progression would outweigh the benefits of Warlocks being able to multiclass in the first place. Half-progression-round-up is the best of both worlds, being easy for new players to grasp (since they'll be doing the same with the Ranger and Paladin) and still being good enough for veterans to optimize around
Except Paladin and Ranger have worthwhile actions to take in addition to their half-casting and a single optimized cantrip. Just because the class is easy to understand doesn't mean it's capable to hang, and just because someone who's intimately familiar with the rules can create an exploitative build that focuses on a few key rules doesn't make the class an interesting choice.
If they're going to make the Warlock a half-caster they need to give the Warlock abilities that let them hang with other half-casters at the front, right now there's no good reason to take the UA blade-lock when you could instead take the martial halfcasters or the true arcane spellcasters.
...If they're going to make the Warlock a half-caster they need to give the Warlock abilities that let them hang with other half-casters at the front, right now there's no good reason to take the UA blade-lock when you could instead take the martial halfcasters or the true arcane spellcasters.
there's no good reason to take bladelock over a melee-optimized class? well, yeah. it's there for the fantasy, not efficiency. also, they haven't addressed hexblade subclass which is assumed to be more melee focused.
in my opinion this ua-6 has been more of a subclass showcase than base class playtest. hopefully we'll see more (warlock) base class love next month.
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unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: providefeedback!
...If they're going to make the Warlock a half-caster they need to give the Warlock abilities that let them hang with other half-casters at the front, right now there's no good reason to take the UA blade-lock when you could instead take the martial halfcasters or the true arcane spellcasters.
there's no good reason to take bladelock over a melee-optimized class? well, yeah. it's there for the fantasy, not efficiency. also, they haven't addressed hexblade subclass which is assumed to be more melee focused.
in my opinion this ua-6 has been more of a subclass showcase than base class playtest. hopefully we'll see more (warlock) base class love next month.
TBH this ua-6 is to me, showing the cracks in WotC that are also evident in the movie, an ambitious project not given the resources or time needed to complete it. The monk is hardly changed at all despite being the last class revised, lots of class/subclass features just giving access to certain spells, several subclasses just being "see Tasha's".
If they're going to make the Warlock a half-caster they need to give the Warlock abilities that let them hang with other half-casters at the front, right now there's no good reason to take the UA blade-lock when you could instead take the martial halfcasters or the true arcane spellcasters.
They did by giving them access to the full Arcane spell list. Warlocks have the best defenses of any half-caster by combining Shield, Blur, Mirror Image, Haste, or other defensive spells with decent armour.
The full Arcane list isn't much when it's coming at half speed. And when you've got significantly fewer spell slots. If all you're doing is casting, but at half the capacity and power of a full caster, you're going to suck, particularly as the levels go up.
The full Arcane list isn't much when it's coming at half speed. And when you've got significantly fewer spell slots. If all you're doing is casting, but at half the capacity and power of a full caster, you're going to suck, particularly as the levels go up.
But that is the whole thing, it isn't coming at half the speed. You get a third level spell when full casters get 3rd level spells, you get a 4th when everyone gets a 4th, a 5th when everyone gets a 5th so on and so forth.
The full Arcane list isn't much when it's coming at half speed. And when you've got significantly fewer spell slots. If all you're doing is casting, but at half the capacity and power of a full caster, you're going to suck, particularly as the levels go up.
But that is the whole thing, it isn't coming at half the speed. You get a third level spell when full casters get 3rd level spells, you get a 4th when everyone gets a 4th, a 5th when everyone gets a 5th so on and so forth.
You get a single cast per day if you're willing to sacrifice most of your Invocations. We've had this discussion before. It's just plain ridiculous to say that having to pay for progression we used to get for free is anything less than a massive nerf.
The full Arcane list isn't much when it's coming at half speed. And when you've got significantly fewer spell slots. If all you're doing is casting, but at half the capacity and power of a full caster, you're going to suck, particularly as the levels go up.
But that is the whole thing, it isn't coming at half the speed. You get a third level spell when full casters get 3rd level spells, you get a 4th when everyone gets a 4th, a 5th when everyone gets a 5th so on and so forth.
You get a single cast per day if you're willing to sacrifice most of your Invocations. We've had this discussion before. It's just plain ridiculous to say that having to pay for progression we used to get for free is anything less than a massive nerf.
Not most, some. If the complaint is about invocations complain about invocations. Don't lie about the speed at which warlocks got access to spells.
Besides at 7 everyone only has 1 4th slot at 9 everyone only has 1 5th slot. And from beyond that 1 6th,7th,8th and finally 9th. Warlocks ALWAYS had less casting than full casters. Because they aren't a full caster.
The best melee Warlock is a Pact of the Tome Warlock with Spell Sniper, allowing them to cast Eldritch Blast in melee.
Warlocks want short rests for their spell slots, but they can get by on Eldritch Blast and Invocations if they don't get one immediately. Monks without ki are basically bad fighters. Monks are the most short rest dependent class in the game.
The full Arcane list isn't much when it's coming at half speed. And when you've got significantly fewer spell slots. If all you're doing is casting, but at half the capacity and power of a full caster, you're going to suck, particularly as the levels go up.
But that is the whole thing, it isn't coming at half the speed. You get a third level spell when full casters get 3rd level spells, you get a 4th when everyone gets a 4th, a 5th when everyone gets a 5th so on and so forth.
You get a single cast per day if you're willing to sacrifice most of your Invocations. We've had this discussion before. It's just plain ridiculous to say that having to pay for progression we used to get for free is anything less than a massive nerf.
Not most, some. If the complaint is about invocations complain about invocations. Don't lie about the speed at which warlocks got access to spells.
Besides at 7 everyone only has 1 4th slot at 9 everyone only has 1 5th slot. And from beyond that 1 6th,7th,8th and finally 9th. Warlocks ALWAYS had less casting than full casters. Because they aren't a full caster.
About half is "most", not some. And spin as hard as you want, you cannot tell me a class that gets fewer high level spell over a more spread out period of time and nothing truly comparable to a martial class to compensate is anything but hobbled.
Monks without ki are basically bad fighters. Monks are the most short rest dependent class in the game.
Reminder for those of us who care about reality that Monks get damage on par with Fighters with their bonus-action strike up 'til Fighters get their third attack—at which point Monks have 11 ki points and various subclass options to surpass a Fighter's damage, and mobility options that don't require ki points that Fighters lack.
If only! With the changes to combat feats and the addition of Weapon Mastery, Fighters out damage Monks from level 1-20.
But that's for folks who don't judge classes based on powergaming potential. Warlocks switching from extremely limited spellslots to half-casting plus arcanums won't make for a worse Warlock for someone who mains the class, but does impede certain power-gaming builds that relied on begging for short rests to exploit pact slots (the same short rests Monks or any other class for that matter aren't allowed to have).
The necessity of short rests were a problem. It's no less a problem now that the Warlock has virtually nothing going for it but an overpowered cantrip and one effective spell (not choice of spell, but exactly one spell per level) per long rest. Paladins, Rangers and other half casters have interesting things to do or going for them in addition to their spells. It's not about optimization, it's about feeling like the class has something to bring to the table for the party.
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2. It’s a cantrip because that’s the way they wrote it. Probably to save on word count, possibly for other reasons I don’t know. What’s important that if you don’t have a reason it should be a feature instead of a cantrip why am I even debating this with you. If it doesn’t change anything why do you care?
3. You aren’t reading. You are just arguing just to argue. I said Book of Ancient Secrets isn’t a PHB invocation. It might come in a later book. The original Pact of the Tome doesn’t give you any rituals. The New Tome is way better!!
4. It’s hard to understand because I stated a choice. I said you choose your class. So both are choices.
This entire game needs a to be remade if every feature has to benefit every player. Not every fighter wants heavy armor training. They should be able to get something to make up for that loss in AC. Not every Barbarian is STR based they should get something to make up for that loss in rage damage. I could go on and on. Lol this is ridiculous.
This argument must be a joke. 4e at wills are the most defining mechanics in that game. I can’t remember any just attacking in that game. Even though I remember that being something you could do. I think your choices were Eldritch blast and Eldritch strike in 4e. But this is a pointless argument for me to have because I mostly skipped 4e. I will point out that in 5e EB and hex have multiple invocations supporting them. That means the designers felt they were defining parts of the class.
So... you're making arguments about 4e warlock without actually understanding the 4e warlock? Gotcha.
Here's the thing - you got two at-will abilities as a warlock - usually something like Hellish Rebuke or Eyebite that came from your pact, and then a choice of a second one, which included Eldritch Blast or Eldritch Strike (which is a weapon attack, not a blast). The 4e blade warlock focused on using their weapons, not EB (though they did get it as a backup ranged option). The 4e binder warlock (precursor to chain) didn't even have the option to take EB.
Many of the non-Essential warlock builds often found ways to boost your pact-specific at-will and use that, and there were several good builds for Eldritch Strike. Using Hellish Rebuke and getting extra damage after the enemy hit you, Eyebite to make yourself invisible before doing a charge with Eldritch Strike, etc. Eldritch Blast did have a few builds (usually using dragon-themed stuff for some reason), and it was what you used if a warlord called for an off turn attack, but it was just one choice amongst many. And, make no mistake, it absolutely was a choice. Without taking feats or magic items to improve it, it ended up lackluster; there were notable opportunity costs to being a good Eldritch Blaster.
Again you joke. I said I mostly skipped it. That means I didn’t fully skip it. I was acknowledging that maybe you played more than me so it’s pointless for me to have that argument, but there are tons of Archives so I can spend some time on Google if you want to have a pointless debate. What is clear is that in 4e warlocks had Eldritch blast and no other class had it. Honestly until Essentials which I was gone before that you picked Eldritch blast or Eldritch strike. From your explanation you might not have used them choosing to improve something else but it was a choice between Eldritch blast and Eldritch smite. One of those was on your character. So my suggestion now is to create a version of Eldritch Strike to give people a choice with the EB feature so I can stop having pointless debates.
Then they suffer being unoptimized if they choose to play a warlock. Both Sorcerer and Wizard offer arcane casters that are not built around being an EB blaster. It's like playing a STR-based Monk or a DEX-based Barbarian or a WIS-based Ranger. Sure you can do it if you want to, but you won't be as powerful as those that choose to play the class according to type. Warlock offers two optimizable play-styles : blade-lock and EB-lock. If you aren't interested in either of those then don't play a warlock, Harravik has said warlock doesn't appeal to them and that's fine! Not every class needs to appeal to every player!
Well you are under optimized just by picking warlock in the first place instead of sorcerer or wizard. I think the designers are vastly over estimating EB. With the number of encounters people seem to have its basically saying EB is just as good as a fireball every round. EB lands somewhere between 1st and 2nd level spell in power, wizards/sorcerers etc can save all their 1st level spells for shields and cast a leveled spell every round pretty early in the game at most tables. They need to go back to the next playtest when wizards had something like
3/2/2/1/1/1/1/1/1 for their spell slots at 20.
I agree that the number of spell slots for full casters needs to be curtailed significantly. We shouldn't be balancing the game around spellcasters casting a 4th or 5th level spell every round.
I’ve got a stupid question…would rolling Patron Spells and Pact Magic together ameliorate some hostility here? Add one more free cast per day, say at level 10, and give it the auto scale from before? Just a thought
Except Paladin and Ranger have worthwhile actions to take in addition to their half-casting and a single optimized cantrip. Just because the class is easy to understand doesn't mean it's capable to hang, and just because someone who's intimately familiar with the rules can create an exploitative build that focuses on a few key rules doesn't make the class an interesting choice.
If they're going to make the Warlock a half-caster they need to give the Warlock abilities that let them hang with other half-casters at the front, right now there's no good reason to take the UA blade-lock when you could instead take the martial halfcasters or the true arcane spellcasters.
there's no good reason to take bladelock over a melee-optimized class? well, yeah. it's there for the fantasy, not efficiency. also, they haven't addressed hexblade subclass which is assumed to be more melee focused.
in my opinion this ua-6 has been more of a subclass showcase than base class playtest. hopefully we'll see more (warlock) base class love next month.
unhappy at the way in which we lost individual purchases for one-off subclasses, magic items, and monsters?
tell them you don't like features disappeared quietly in the night: provide feedback!
TBH this ua-6 is to me, showing the cracks in WotC that are also evident in the movie, an ambitious project not given the resources or time needed to complete it. The monk is hardly changed at all despite being the last class revised, lots of class/subclass features just giving access to certain spells, several subclasses just being "see Tasha's".
They did by giving them access to the full Arcane spell list. Warlocks have the best defenses of any half-caster by combining Shield, Blur, Mirror Image, Haste, or other defensive spells with decent armour.
The full Arcane list isn't much when it's coming at half speed. And when you've got significantly fewer spell slots. If all you're doing is casting, but at half the capacity and power of a full caster, you're going to suck, particularly as the levels go up.
But that is the whole thing, it isn't coming at half the speed. You get a third level spell when full casters get 3rd level spells, you get a 4th when everyone gets a 4th, a 5th when everyone gets a 5th so on and so forth.
You get a single cast per day if you're willing to sacrifice most of your Invocations. We've had this discussion before. It's just plain ridiculous to say that having to pay for progression we used to get for free is anything less than a massive nerf.
Not most, some. If the complaint is about invocations complain about invocations. Don't lie about the speed at which warlocks got access to spells.
Besides at 7 everyone only has 1 4th slot at 9 everyone only has 1 5th slot. And from beyond that 1 6th,7th,8th and finally 9th. Warlocks ALWAYS had less casting than full casters. Because they aren't a full caster.
The best melee Warlock is a Pact of the Tome Warlock with Spell Sniper, allowing them to cast Eldritch Blast in melee.
Warlocks want short rests for their spell slots, but they can get by on Eldritch Blast and Invocations if they don't get one immediately. Monks without ki are basically bad fighters. Monks are the most short rest dependent class in the game.
About half is "most", not some. And spin as hard as you want, you cannot tell me a class that gets fewer high level spell over a more spread out period of time and nothing truly comparable to a martial class to compensate is anything but hobbled.
If only! With the changes to combat feats and the addition of Weapon Mastery, Fighters out damage Monks from level 1-20.
The necessity of short rests were a problem. It's no less a problem now that the Warlock has virtually nothing going for it but an overpowered cantrip and one effective spell (not choice of spell, but exactly one spell per level) per long rest. Paladins, Rangers and other half casters have interesting things to do or going for them in addition to their spells. It's not about optimization, it's about feeling like the class has something to bring to the table for the party.