Can we not wait 1.5 hrs to finally kill this topic? We already know Ranger spells have been improved from the myriad posts online and in the internet ether. Everywhere I see: Ranger's are Ded". Well, to use Dungeon Dudes words:
"Reports of the Ranger's demise have been grossly exaggerated"
Thank you. Always good to see a voice of reason amidst the hysteria.
Expertise in Stealth is a good thing because you have to clear a static 15 to even get the Hidden condition to start with, but you want your check to be as high as possible because that becomes the DC for any searchers.
Is that confirmed? Gods I hope not. That's such a terrible rule.
2024 Rangers can get Guidance without a feat in exchange for their fighting style, just like Tasha Rangers can. If you think that's a poor ability, then your judgment applies to both of them.
Yes I do think that's a poor ability, and have never suggested the contrary. Fighting Style is necessary to keep Rangers competitive with other martials in terms of combat ability, hence why in 2024 it is not a background feat despite not being a half-feat, and is additionally restricted to only those classes that already have FS as a class feature.
Ranger isn't dead, but it also hasn't been improved. It's in a slightly worse position than it was post-Tasha's mainly because of the nerfing of Gloomstalker, elimination of SS damage bonus, and addition of Topple.
Handle Animal and Insight are also social skills, did you realize that?
Animal Handling isn't a social skill, it's an exploration skill (dogs in D&D aren't Lassie), and usually people play such that animals don't care about people casting spells (otherwise any caster that tries to ride a horse is going to get constantly bucked off). Speak with Animals is a social spell and usually removes the need to roll Animal Handling, since Rangers get Ritual casting now, they can just take that spell instead. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Ranger to take Insight since it's the skill every Wisdom class gets access to, so probably someone else in the party will have it, and it generally doesn't fit the fantasy of being a Ranger.
Expertise in Stealth is a good thing because you have to clear a static 15 to even get the Hidden condition to start with, but you want your check to be as high as possible because that becomes the DC for any searchers.
Is that confirmed? Gods I hope not. That's such a terrible rule.
It's confirmed. The embargo was lifted this morning.
2024 Rangers can get Guidance without a feat in exchange for their fighting style, just like Tasha Rangers can. If you think that's a poor ability, then your judgment applies to both of them.
Yes I do think that's a poor ability, and have never suggested the contrary. Fighting Style is necessary to keep Rangers competitive with other martials in terms of combat ability, hence why in 2024 it is not a background feat despite not being a half-feat, and is additionally restricted to only those classes that already have FS as a class feature.
Ranger isn't dead, but it also hasn't been improved. It's in a slightly worse position than it was post-Tasha's mainly because of the nerfing of Gloomstalker, and elimination of SS damage bonus.
So if you don't think Guidance is worth an origin feat OR a fighting style to pick up, why do you care about it so much? Either it matters to you or it doesn't. Or it's Schrodinger's Guidance and you care about it when you're trying to demonstrate Druids can be good at skill checks before suddenly concluding skill checks don't matter when it's the Ranger's turn.
Expertise still beats Guidance anyway. On average, Guidance is +2.5 to a check, which Expertise beats at level 5 onward.
Expertise in Stealth is a good thing because you have to clear a static 15 to even get the Hidden condition to start with, but you want your check to be as high as possible because that becomes the DC for any searchers.
Is that confirmed? Gods I hope not. That's such a terrible rule.
That part does not bother me. Its the absolutely bizarre you have to be entirely hidden to hide rules that I hate.
Can we not wait 1.5 hrs to finally kill this topic? We already know Ranger spells have been improved from the myriad posts online and in the internet ether. Everywhere I see: Ranger's are Ded". Well, to use Dungeon Dudes words:
"Reports of the Ranger's demise have been grossly exaggerated"
You're missing the point of the argument now. It's stopped being about whether Ranger is good or bad the moment PrenXY starting contradicting themselves. It's now about showing PrenXY that they aren't being rational whatsoever, but instead they have decided 2024 update == good (possibly because of the clever marketing strategy of WotC to use Youtube creators/influencers to promote the changes, and doing "early reveals" of the features that had the biggest support in the surveys) and are changing all their other opinions in order to justify that one position.
It's confirmed. The embargo was lifted this morning.
Gross. A level 1 character should not be able to easily sneak past a frigging Solar because there happens to be a 2 ft tall wall between them. And likewise a character shouldn't need a 15 and a solid wall to sneak past a group of zombies in the middle of eating another person.
So if you don't think Guidance is worth an origin feat OR a fighting style to pick up, why do you care about it so much?
What makes you think I care about it so much? I'd take it on any caster that gets it on their spell list (such as a Druid now), but you only need 1 person in the party with it, so I'm not wasting a feat or FS on it unless there is literally no one else in the party that can take it. It only makes sense to compare classes based on "typical" ways to build them not the extremes of what is technically possible.
Can we not wait 1.5 hrs to finally kill this topic? We already know Ranger spells have been improved from the myriad posts online and in the internet ether. Everywhere I see: Ranger's are Ded". Well, to use Dungeon Dudes words:
"Reports of the Ranger's demise have been grossly exaggerated"
You're missing the point of the argument now. It's stopped being about whether Ranger is good or bad the moment PrenXY starting contradicting themselves. It's now about showing PrenXY that they aren't being rational whatsoever, but instead they have decided 2024 update == good (possibly because of the clever marketing strategy of WotC to use Youtube creators/influencers to promote the changes, and doing "early reveals" of the features that had the biggest support in the surveys) and are changing all their other opinions in order to justify that one position.
Psyren thinks it's good because it is. +1d6 per hit from a 1st level slot (or no slot) is solid damage. But I can understand why it might not seem that way to folks who don't optimize often.
You forgot that HM also now applies to any damage, not just weapon attacks, and its force damage. Also, with the updated spellcasting rules, Rangers is one of the few classes that can cast Hunter's Mark and a leveled spell on the same turn because of the free HM casts per your level 1 feature
Treantmonk confirmed the HM changes and spellcasting changes
That part does not bother me. Its the absolutely bizarre you have to be entirely hidden to hide rules that I hate.
What do you mean "entirely hidden?" You need to either be Heavily Obscured or behind 3/4 cover or better. Neither of those are "entirely hidden."
Yes, yes it is. Heavily obscured is you can't be seen, it is total darkness, it is being invisible, fog so deep you can't see more than 5 feet etc. 3/4th cover means you duck a little bit and you can't be seen. That isn't a trained ninjas stealthiness, that is just a fat dude standing around who you happen to miss when looking around for them.
Look look after years of training I can hide when I'm totally invisible guys.
Gross. A level 1 character should not be able to easily sneak past a frigging Solar because there happens to be a 2 ft tall wall between them.
1. The DC 15 is just to begin hiding. That's not where the counterplay ends.
2. You know Solars have 24 passive perception right? And Truesight?
Exactly my point! Passive perception is meaningless now! Unless the Solar is actively searching for you all you need to succeed on a "Hide" action is beat a DC 15. Truesight only sees through illusions and altered shape, it doesn't let them see through cover. So 3/4 cover from lying prone behind a 2ft tall wall would allow a 1st level character to hide from a Solar unless that Solar is actively looking for them.
vs
2014 rules, to "Hide" you had to beat the passive perception of the monster even if it wasn't actively looking for you.
That part does not bother me. Its the absolutely bizarre you have to be entirely hidden to hide rules that I hate.
What do you mean "entirely hidden?" You need to either be Heavily Obscured or behind 3/4 cover or better. Neither of those are "entirely hidden."
Yes, yes it is. Heavily obscured is you can't be seen, it is total darkness, it is being invisible, fog so deep you can't see more than 5 feet etc. 3/4th cover means you duck a little bit and you can't be seen. That isn't a trained ninjas stealthiness, that is just a fat dude standing around who you happen to miss when looking around for them.
Look look after years of training I can hide when I'm totally invisible guys.
I mean, that's pretty reasonable. A trained ninja can't just stand in the middle of an open field and not be spotted. Hiding in 5e is more about not being heard than not being seen, they kinda clarified it in the UA, but still not great. Though if you want to play as a ninja you should take the Skulker feat that allows you to hide when lightly obscured. A big beefy barbarian shouldn't get ninja-level stealthiness.
+1d6 per hit from a 1st level slot (or no slot) is solid damage.
I mean it's not, the optimizers have calculated it out. But either way that's nothing new. Ranger has had that since 2014. You're argument is then that 2024 didn't make Ranger worse than it is in 2014? Then why are you arguing? Nobody disagrees with that. I and I think a few others are simply arguing that 2024 didn't make Ranger any better than what we've had since Tasha's.
That part does not bother me. Its the absolutely bizarre you have to be entirely hidden to hide rules that I hate.
What do you mean "entirely hidden?" You need to either be Heavily Obscured or behind 3/4 cover or better. Neither of those are "entirely hidden."
Yes, yes it is. Heavily obscured is you can't be seen, it is total darkness, it is being invisible, fog so deep you can't see more than 5 feet etc. 3/4th cover means you duck a little bit and you can't be seen. That isn't a trained ninjas stealthiness, that is just a fat dude standing around who you happen to miss when looking around for them.
Look look after years of training I can hide when I'm totally invisible guys.
I mean, that's pretty reasonable. A trained ninja can't just stand in the middle of an open field and not be spotted. Hiding in 5e is more about not being heard than not being seen, they kinda clarified it in the UA, but still not great. Though if you want to play as a ninja you should take the Skulker feat that allows you to hide when lightly obscured. A big beefy barbarian shouldn't get ninja-level stealthiness.
I'm pretty sure you in your life have snuck up on people with far less concealment than heavy. It is not reasonable in the slightest. It defies reality. It makes your fantasy characters worse at stealth than the actual player.
That part does not bother me. Its the absolutely bizarre you have to be entirely hidden to hide rules that I hate.
What do you mean "entirely hidden?" You need to either be Heavily Obscured or behind 3/4 cover or better. Neither of those are "entirely hidden."
Yes, yes it is. Heavily obscured is you can't be seen, it is total darkness, it is being invisible, fog so deep you can't see more than 5 feet etc. 3/4th cover means you duck a little bit and you can't be seen. That isn't a trained ninjas stealthiness, that is just a fat dude standing around who you happen to miss when looking around for them.
Look look after years of training I can hide when I'm totally invisible guys.
I mean, that's pretty reasonable. A trained ninja can't just stand in the middle of an open field and not be spotted. Hiding in 5e is more about not being heard than not being seen, they kinda clarified it in the UA, but still not great. Though if you want to play as a ninja you should take the Skulker feat that allows you to hide when lightly obscured. A big beefy barbarian shouldn't get ninja-level stealthiness.
I'm pretty sure you in your life have snuck up on people with far less concealment than heavy. It is not reasonable in the slightest. It defies reality. It makes your fantasy characters worse at stealth than the actual player.
No, I've never been able to sneak up on someone who is looking in my direction without heavy concealment. You'd need to use the .. what's it called... the optional rules for directional looking and vision cones? Then everything outside of a creature's vision cone is heavily obscured to them. I'd agree with having those rules graduated up into base rules rather than optional ones (the climbing on giant monsters should be made a base rule too), because I use them already for whenever players are stealthing outside of combat.
So, seeing that the Dual Wielder feat allows a bonus-action attack on top of the extra attack from Nick, we can now see why Hunter's Mark was made into a central class feature.
Namely, that you're expected to use specific weapons and a specific feat when playing a class, and its features are balanced entirely around that presumed build, and if you aren't a dual-wielder then you're just stupid and deserve to be doing half the damage and be tethered to a spell that's half as useful for you as it is for someone else because you aren't playing the One Right Build.
Treantmonk's embargo is lifted and he confirmed that HM is 1d6 per hit like 2014, not the crappy 1/round scaling one from the UA. That means the free uses are just as powerful as the spell slot ones.
1. It could be a feature you will use. Remember your argument was you can just drop concentration on HM. So my point is you now have a wasted feature.
2. I’m not sure what the “you’re still a Ranger” argument means. When you’re not using HM you aren’t using 3 features of Ranger, 4 if you are a Hunter or Beastmaster.
3. The new guidance last for an hour, so it’s just once and you can make all the survival or perception checks you need you only need to chant again to change what skill it’s on. I also pointed out that it’s not easy for a Ranger to get it. They have to use a feat or give up their fighting style. You are arguing with yourself. You stated this Druids have to take a feat to get expertise and because of that cost that should not be considered.
4. It does nothing in a fight if you are using your better concentration spells. You are literally arguing with yourself on this. You told me that I should be using spike growth, summon beast, and better concentration spells. You can’t have it both ways. Favored enemy still does something at a point I no longer cast HM.
5. Way to list a bunch of things that aren’t Ranger improvements. Weapon Mastery was given to most martials and if they literally pulled Tasha’s Ranger forward word for word they would have given it the new feature of the game as well. More Expertise does not make you a better Ranger. When you don’t have a high stat in a skill advantage can be better than expertise especially at low levels, and that advantage was focused on Ranger things. For people who like to control their character build more expertise is an improvement, but to people looking for any flavor it’s a lateral move at best. Swapping spells on a long rest is cool and so are rituals, but really are improvements they gave to a lot of classes as a game wide improvement. The invisibility should last longer since you get it much later. Some will never see it now. Origin feats are for everyone so don’t use that to show the 2024 Ranger is better than Tasha’s. If you play an 2014 character in the 2024 game they already said you would get origin feats by taking a 2024 background. That’s not even part of the class. It’s a game improvement not a class improvement. Using any fighting style only matters if you aren’t using a bow, crossbow or two weapon fighting. Not an improvement for most. Feral Senses is actually worse. If you were an archer shooting at an enemy you couldn’t see beyond 30ft you wouldn’t have disadvantage. With the new version you would. It’s niche that would occur, but the old version is actually just better. The new version is easier to understand and take up less words. You can’t touch on the HM improvements because they are technically bad for the overall kit. Some of them are wasted features. Let’s pole the community to see which class has the worse capstone feature. What’s funny is that 2014 Foe Slayer might actually be a better capstone. Especially for people who are concentrating on a spell other than HM.
1. A feature you're not using right this second is not "wasted." This is like saying Action Surge is a wasted feature while your fighter isn't in combat.
2. It means that you still have Expertise, Weapon Masteries, all your proficiencies, all your other spells... all the things you get from BEING a Ranger.
3. Guidance lasts for an hour OR until you use the die on a check. So in practice, it'll never lasts the full hour before you need to chant again if you want the buff more than once.
4. Again, your logic here is that when you're concentrating on one spell all your other spells cease to exist. That's nonsense. Spells represent options - if I'm concentrating on Spike Growth and all the enemies take to the sky, I have the option of dropping Spike Growth and swapping to HM. That makes HM a useful feature for me, even if I'm not using it right now. And that is the impasse you and I will seemingly never see eye to eye on.
5. The fact that you don't see any of those things as improvements means I don't have to take your optimization views seriously.
1. It’s wasted because you are going to be using your better concentration spells at every chance you get.
2. You mean all the things I could get from being 3 other classes. If their is nothing special why am I playing a Ranger?!
3. How many skill checks does your DM make you make? For tracking and perception checks outside of combat you won’t be casting guidance every minute.
4. My logic is that while concentrating on a spell I can’t use other spells that are concentration. Wait that’s not just my logic, it’s the rules of the game. Options only matter if they are good options. Again you are the one who told me that I should be using better concentration spells. You can’t have it both ways. If I’m using spike growth and a creature starts flying I should probably use ensnaring strike to bring them back down. I don’t want them to get away from my melee party members. It’s a group game. Which is why many of us are complaining about the 2024 Ranger.
5. I literally explained how they aren’t improvements and you just ignored me. Lol. Nature’s Veil improved but you get it 4 levels later, meaning some will never get it. Feral Senses easier to read and understand but actually functional weaker. 2014 feral senses with SS and longbow could attack an unseen creature at 600 ft with no disadvantage. The 2014 Capstone was better.
So, seeing that the Dual Wielder feat allows a bonus-action attack on top of the extra attack from Nick, we can now see why Hunter's Mark was made into a central class feature.
Namely, that you're expected to use specific weapons and a specific feat when playing a class, and its features are balanced entirely around that presumed build, and if you aren't a dual-wielder then you're just stupid and deserve to be doing half the damage and be tethered to a spell that's half as useful for you as it is for someone else because you aren't playing the One Right Build.
Great! Until you get hit and drop concentration the first round, and then the creature dies the third round before your turn so never really get the combo going and you sorta wasted 2 of your free castings of HM. Well technically in this case it’s your feat that was wasted since you used your BA to cast instead of making attacks. Your HM would have added damage to the attacks made first and second round. Melee range Concentration for the win. Hooray!!!
and that's why they got the level 13 feature that lets Rangers keep concentration unless unconscious or the drop it. Btw, the only thing you got at level 13 on 2014 was 4th level spells
Thank you. Always good to see a voice of reason amidst the hysteria.
Is that confirmed? Gods I hope not. That's such a terrible rule.
Yes I do think that's a poor ability, and have never suggested the contrary. Fighting Style is necessary to keep Rangers competitive with other martials in terms of combat ability, hence why in 2024 it is not a background feat despite not being a half-feat, and is additionally restricted to only those classes that already have FS as a class feature.
Ranger isn't dead, but it also hasn't been improved. It's in a slightly worse position than it was post-Tasha's mainly because of the nerfing of Gloomstalker, elimination of SS damage bonus, and addition of Topple.
Animal Handling isn't a social skill, it's an exploration skill (dogs in D&D aren't Lassie), and usually people play such that animals don't care about people casting spells (otherwise any caster that tries to ride a horse is going to get constantly bucked off). Speak with Animals is a social spell and usually removes the need to roll Animal Handling, since Rangers get Ritual casting now, they can just take that spell instead. It doesn't make a lot of sense for Ranger to take Insight since it's the skill every Wisdom class gets access to, so probably someone else in the party will have it, and it generally doesn't fit the fantasy of being a Ranger.
It's confirmed. The embargo was lifted this morning.
So if you don't think Guidance is worth an origin feat OR a fighting style to pick up, why do you care about it so much? Either it matters to you or it doesn't. Or it's Schrodinger's Guidance and you care about it when you're trying to demonstrate Druids can be good at skill checks before suddenly concluding skill checks don't matter when it's the Ranger's turn.
Expertise still beats Guidance anyway. On average, Guidance is +2.5 to a check, which Expertise beats at level 5 onward.
That part does not bother me. Its the absolutely bizarre you have to be entirely hidden to hide rules that I hate.
You're missing the point of the argument now. It's stopped being about whether Ranger is good or bad the moment PrenXY starting contradicting themselves. It's now about showing PrenXY that they aren't being rational whatsoever, but instead they have decided 2024 update == good (possibly because of the clever marketing strategy of WotC to use Youtube creators/influencers to promote the changes, and doing "early reveals" of the features that had the biggest support in the surveys) and are changing all their other opinions in order to justify that one position.
Gross. A level 1 character should not be able to easily sneak past a frigging Solar because there happens to be a 2 ft tall wall between them. And likewise a character shouldn't need a 15 and a solid wall to sneak past a group of zombies in the middle of eating another person.
What makes you think I care about it so much? I'd take it on any caster that gets it on their spell list (such as a Druid now), but you only need 1 person in the party with it, so I'm not wasting a feat or FS on it unless there is literally no one else in the party that can take it. It only makes sense to compare classes based on "typical" ways to build them not the extremes of what is technically possible.
Psyren thinks it's good because it is. +1d6 per hit from a 1st level slot (or no slot) is solid damage. But I can understand why it might not seem that way to folks who don't optimize often.
1. The DC 15 is just to begin hiding. That's not where the counterplay ends.
2. You know Solars have 24 passive perception right? And Truesight?
What do you mean "entirely hidden?" You need to either be Heavily Obscured or behind 3/4 cover or better. Neither of those are "entirely hidden."
You forgot that HM also now applies to any damage, not just weapon attacks, and its force damage. Also, with the updated spellcasting rules, Rangers is one of the few classes that can cast Hunter's Mark and a leveled spell on the same turn because of the free HM casts per your level 1 feature
Treantmonk confirmed the HM changes and spellcasting changes
Yes, yes it is. Heavily obscured is you can't be seen, it is total darkness, it is being invisible, fog so deep you can't see more than 5 feet etc. 3/4th cover means you duck a little bit and you can't be seen. That isn't a trained ninjas stealthiness, that is just a fat dude standing around who you happen to miss when looking around for them.
Look look after years of training I can hide when I'm totally invisible guys.
Exactly my point! Passive perception is meaningless now! Unless the Solar is actively searching for you all you need to succeed on a "Hide" action is beat a DC 15. Truesight only sees through illusions and altered shape, it doesn't let them see through cover. So 3/4 cover from lying prone behind a 2ft tall wall would allow a 1st level character to hide from a Solar unless that Solar is actively looking for them.
vs
2014 rules, to "Hide" you had to beat the passive perception of the monster even if it wasn't actively looking for you.
I mean, that's pretty reasonable. A trained ninja can't just stand in the middle of an open field and not be spotted. Hiding in 5e is more about not being heard than not being seen, they kinda clarified it in the UA, but still not great. Though if you want to play as a ninja you should take the Skulker feat that allows you to hide when lightly obscured. A big beefy barbarian shouldn't get ninja-level stealthiness.
I mean it's not, the optimizers have calculated it out. But either way that's nothing new. Ranger has had that since 2014. You're argument is then that 2024 didn't make Ranger worse than it is in 2014? Then why are you arguing? Nobody disagrees with that. I and I think a few others are simply arguing that 2024 didn't make Ranger any better than what we've had since Tasha's.
I'm pretty sure you in your life have snuck up on people with far less concealment than heavy. It is not reasonable in the slightest. It defies reality. It makes your fantasy characters worse at stealth than the actual player.
No, I've never been able to sneak up on someone who is looking in my direction without heavy concealment. You'd need to use the .. what's it called... the optional rules for directional looking and vision cones? Then everything outside of a creature's vision cone is heavily obscured to them. I'd agree with having those rules graduated up into base rules rather than optional ones (the climbing on giant monsters should be made a base rule too), because I use them already for whenever players are stealthing outside of combat.
So, seeing that the Dual Wielder feat allows a bonus-action attack on top of the extra attack from Nick, we can now see why Hunter's Mark was made into a central class feature.
Namely, that you're expected to use specific weapons and a specific feat when playing a class, and its features are balanced entirely around that presumed build, and if you aren't a dual-wielder then you're just stupid and deserve to be doing half the damage and be tethered to a spell that's half as useful for you as it is for someone else because you aren't playing the One Right Build.
1. It’s wasted because you are going to be using your better concentration spells at every chance you get.
2. You mean all the things I could get from being 3 other classes. If their is nothing special why am I playing a Ranger?!
3. How many skill checks does your DM make you make? For tracking and perception checks outside of combat you won’t be casting guidance every minute.
4. My logic is that while concentrating on a spell I can’t use other spells that are concentration. Wait that’s not just my logic, it’s the rules of the game. Options only matter if they are good options. Again you are the one who told me that I should be using better concentration spells. You can’t have it both ways. If I’m using spike growth and a creature starts flying I should probably use ensnaring strike to bring them back down. I don’t want them to get away from my melee party members. It’s a group game. Which is why many of us are complaining about the 2024 Ranger.
5. I literally explained how they aren’t improvements and you just ignored me. Lol. Nature’s Veil improved but you get it 4 levels later, meaning some will never get it. Feral Senses easier to read and understand but actually functional weaker. 2014 feral senses with SS and longbow could attack an unseen creature at 600 ft with no disadvantage. The 2014 Capstone was better.
Great! Until you get hit and drop concentration the first round, and then the creature dies the third round before your turn so never really get the combo going and you sorta wasted 2 of your free castings of HM. Well technically in this case it’s your feat that was wasted since you used your BA to cast instead of making attacks. Your HM would have added damage to the attacks made first and second round. Melee range Concentration for the win. Hooray!!!
and that's why they got the level 13 feature that lets Rangers keep concentration unless unconscious or the drop it. Btw, the only thing you got at level 13 on 2014 was 4th level spells