i kinda like the idea that focusing wis has a tangible pet benefit. I'm not sure it's worth aiming for if you don't already want the magic and skills bonuses. actually, I'd go the other way: maybe wish animal handling bonus was added to pet attack damage or something. more wis bonus, not less.
but, yeah, if you want to be good with weapons and have a pet then i reiterate: go dex and ask the dm for an encounter with a cool animal you can save, befriend, and train up. beast master is an example template you can mostly replicate with a single skill proficiency. which is wild when you think about it.
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Beastmaster exists so DM's don't have to either work out how "training up" a pet works or deal with people who keep asking even though the DM isn't inclined to give them a custom pet. Animal Handling in 5e is not meant to give you a full battle pet; it's for brief interactions with animals, trying to do things like calm them, trick them, or rouse them.
If you're using polearms then Push is significantly a better mastery, since pushing enemies 10 foot back means they need to walk back towards you, which results in triggering the reactionary attack of PAM much more often and when you trigger the reaction, you get to push the creature again.
As a DM, why would my monster continue to try to attack you if you keep pushing it away? If you push my monster out of your reach, it will just go attack someone else, especially if it gets pushed or proned on the PAM reaction.
How intelligent is your creature? does your creature even have anything but melee? I mean, what is an Owlbear going to do? The only other option is fleeing. If your creature does have ranged attacks, are they going to stand still while they range attack or move backwards? They're going to get choke-pointed or controlled if they retreat too much. Basically, it's keep attacking or it's getting zoned and neither generally end well for the creature, that is meant to be the power of a polearm to begin with after all. But naturally different types of creatures should react in different ways to the situation and that is up to you as a DM to determine how different creatures act. Perhaps a wizard would think of some alternative method but a wolf or a giant constrictor snake generally isn't, they probably aren't going to survive 3~4 rounds of combat under that situation to learn from it anyway.
If you're using polearms then Push is significantly a better mastery, since pushing enemies 10 foot back means they need to walk back towards you, which results in triggering the reactionary attack of PAM much more often and when you trigger the reaction, you get to push the creature again.
As a DM, why would my monster continue to try to attack you if you keep pushing it away? If you push my monster out of your reach, it will just go attack someone else, especially if it gets pushed or proned on the PAM reaction.
How intelligent is your creature? does your creature even have anything but melee? I mean, what is an Owlbear going to do? The only other option is fleeing. If your creature does have ranged attacks, are they going to stand still while they range attack or move backwards? They're going to get choke-pointed or controlled if they retreat too much. Basically, it's keep attacking or it's getting zoned and neither generally end well for the creature, that is meant to be the power of a polearm to begin with after all. But naturally different types of creatures should react in different ways to the situation and that is up to you as a DM to determine how different creatures act. Perhaps a wizard would think of some alternative method but a wolf or a giant constrictor snake generally isn't, they probably aren't going to survive 3~4 rounds of combat under that situation to learn from it anyway.
Have you never had a pet? It only takes one maybe two instances of getting pushed away from something for them learn they can't get to that thing and then lose interest - and 90% of enemies at least as smart as a dog in D&D. Not everyone in the party is a PAM, it's real easy for them to go after the wizard, or rogue, or monk, or bard, or cleric, or druid rather than the PAM fighter, and most of the time you aren't fighting in a narrow hallway or in a doorway where one character can block the movement of the enemies.
PS 50% of enemies move faster than the PCs so fleeing should be trivial. Unless you are in the lair of a monster it really has little reason to fight to the death if it is in a disadvantageous position.
Have you never had a pet? It only takes one maybe two instances of getting pushed away from something for them learn they can't get to that thing and then lose interest - and 90% of enemies at least as smart as a dog in D&D. Not everyone in the party is a PAM, it's real easy for them to go after the wizard, or rogue, or monk, or bard, or cleric, or druid rather than the PAM fighter, and most of the time you aren't fighting in a narrow hallway or in a doorway where one character can block the movement of the enemies.
PS 50% of enemies move faster than the PCs so fleeing should be trivial. Unless you are in the lair of a monster it really has little reason to fight to the death if it is in a disadvantageous position.
You realise that a pet is different from a hunting pack right? hunting animals do not give up that easily, Lions chasing gazelle sometimes get kicked in the face, doesn't mean they aren't going to hunt gazelle any more. You can't base predator behaviour on your pet, that isn't to say predators are less intelligent but they have stronger motivations than your (presumably well fed) pet does and aren't going to be anywhere near as easily put off from something as you're implying. A lot of beasts and other similar type creatures are going to attack the party because A) they are hungry and need food or B) they are defending their territory, these are not things your pet is doing with you because they aren't getting to that level of hunger, you are part of the territory and they have a connection to you.
In the case a creature realises it is outmatched or the risk of damage is too great, most are not going to fight any more, they are going for flight, if it's cornered then it reverts back to fight, even if the fight is not in it's favour.
Have you never had a pet? It only takes one maybe two instances of getting pushed away from something for them learn they can't get to that thing and then lose interest - and 90% of enemies at least as smart as a dog in D&D. Not everyone in the party is a PAM, it's real easy for them to go after the wizard, or rogue, or monk, or bard, or cleric, or druid rather than the PAM fighter, and most of the time you aren't fighting in a narrow hallway or in a doorway where one character can block the movement of the enemies.
PS 50% of enemies move faster than the PCs so fleeing should be trivial. Unless you are in the lair of a monster it really has little reason to fight to the death if it is in a disadvantageous position.
You realise that a pet is different from a hunting pack right? hunting animals do not give up that easily, Lions chasing gazelle sometimes get kicked in the face, doesn't mean they aren't going to hunt gazelle any more.
Have you not watched nature documentaries? Lions do not hunt the strongest most able to defend themselves prey, they pick out the weakest and easiest to kill. They would try to hunt the wizard, not the fighter, and 75% of the time hunting lions give up without catching anything. A hunting creature is not going to keep attacking a heavily armoured fighter that hurts it and throws it back 10 ft. As I said, only if you are inside it's lair would most dumb monsters fight to the death, and even then if it is 10 ft away from the PAM fighter, because they pushed it way from them, why would it choose to attack the PAM fighter rather than someone else? It has a whole party to choose from, all of which are presumably equally inside it's lair, and all of them require it to move to reach them since the PAM fighter keeps pushing it away from themselves, so what reason does it have to keep going after the PAM fighter rather than a different member of the party?
I mean, if the monster is toe-to-toe with the fighter, and the fighter has their weapon poised to strike if the monster gives them an opening (Attack of Opportunity) sure, it has a good reason to keep attacking the fighter. But if it is safely 10 ft away from the fighter, why would it choose to attack the fighter rather than someone else?
Have you never had a pet? It only takes one maybe two instances of getting pushed away from something for them learn they can't get to that thing and then lose interest - and 90% of enemies at least as smart as a dog in D&D. Not everyone in the party is a PAM, it's real easy for them to go after the wizard, or rogue, or monk, or bard, or cleric, or druid rather than the PAM fighter, and most of the time you aren't fighting in a narrow hallway or in a doorway where one character can block the movement of the enemies.
PS 50% of enemies move faster than the PCs so fleeing should be trivial. Unless you are in the lair of a monster it really has little reason to fight to the death if it is in a disadvantageous position.
You realise that a pet is different from a hunting pack right? hunting animals do not give up that easily, Lions chasing gazelle sometimes get kicked in the face, doesn't mean they aren't going to hunt gazelle any more.
Have you not watched nature documentaries? Lions do not hunt the strongest most able to defend themselves prey, they pick out the weakest and easiest to kill. They would try to hunt the wizard, not the fighter, and 75% of the time hunting lions give up without catching anything. A hunting creature is not going to keep attacking a heavily armoured fighter that hurts it and throws it back 10 ft. As I said, only if you are inside it's lair would most dumb monsters fight to the death, and even then if it is 10 ft away from the PAM fighter, because they pushed it way from them, why would it choose to attack the PAM fighter rather than someone else? It has a whole party to choose from, all of which are presumably equally inside it's lair, and all of them require it to move to reach them since the PAM fighter keeps pushing it away from themselves, so what reason does it have to keep going after the PAM fighter rather than a different member of the party?
I mean, if the monster is toe-to-toe with the fighter, and the fighter has their weapon poised to strike if the monster gives them an opening (Attack of Opportunity) sure, it has a good reason to keep attacking the fighter. But if it is safely 10 ft away from the fighter, why would it choose to attack the fighter rather than someone else?
I am an avid fan of David Attenborough, and yes, Lions fail a lot, I never mentioned about who the predator targets because that is partially irrelevant to the conversation. The wizard is going to position themselves in the safest spot and the wizard might not look like the weakest target, animals can tell things like blood and if your front-liner looks bloody, they may look like the easier target. Lions mostly give up hunts due to stamina, they can sprint a short distance and going any longer may cause them to overheat, which can lead to serious conditions. Risk can be a factor when dealing with larger prey like elephants or hippos that could almost near 1 hit kill a lion, and yet lions will continue to hunt such dangerous prey.
Do your parties stand in-front of the fighter or behind the fighter? fighter with PAM is usually on the front lines and that gives a huge zone of control, a fighter with a polearm can effectively control a very large choke point (up to 25 foot wide), as a fighter with a polearm, you then stand in that middle spot, that creature has no other available targets since to get to other targets it has to travel through the fighter's zone of control.
In a place where the fighter can not gain a zone of control over a whole checkpoint, then the creature could attempt to go for another party member, but to do so it still needs to travel around the fighter's zone of control. Assuming the fighter is 15 foot away and the party behind, the creature would need to travel a minimum of 30 foot to get behind the fighter, at one of the two sides, which is unlikely to be the position the party is going to hold, they are more likely another 20 foot further away. So while some creatures get 60 foot of movement, most don't, they'd have to sprint, at which point they wasted most of their turn which will be followed by the fighter coming in and hitting the creature again with their polearm and pushing it back until the fighter once again is between it and the party.
In the case you have another front-liner, they could stand 5ft from the fighter, the fighter can then still target the creature when it comes to attack that ally since they are entering the 10 foot reach of the polearm, so polearms are very effective here, it could be the case the creature is intelligent enough to attack from an angle with cover, but this would only supply half-cover and the fighter can still take their reaction with the creature having a +2 AC bonus against it.
And at this point we are focusing on just beasts, which is not the same as humans, humans have very different motivations too and might get killed for cowardice in war, or bandits might believe they have enough numbers that they won't be the one targetted by the reaction since they aren't thinking of things in terms of "actions or reactions" when planning targets, it is combat and the fighter has closer targets. Overall there is multiple reasons why different types of creatures would re-enter that range which goes back to the previous point that it is down to the DM to decide how creatures react. You might not believe any creature would ever re-enter that range, i personally see multiple reasons and we'd DM it differently, that does not necessarily mean either of us are wrong either, we just play these things out differently partly based on how we believe those creatures react and partly based on known our own group and their expectations (and how to use those expectations against them).
Beastmaster exists so DM's don't have to either work out how "training up" a pet works or deal with people who keep asking even though the DM isn't inclined to give them a custom pet.
beastmaster is definitely the lazy "so you want a pet?" simplification and it suffers for that. the statblock is not a huge innovation over sidekick progression. heck, one example in the DMG is a wolf sidekick. the subclass basically only adds force damage pet attacks and pet resurrection.
Animal Handling in 5e is not meant to give you a full battle pet; it's for brief interactions with animals, trying to do things like calm them, trick them, or rouse them.
according to the basic rules, animal handling is there to calm animals down or get your mount to do something. yawn. we can agree it is definitely not intended to provide a pokemon experience. however, scent hounds and sheep dogs and hunting raptors and pack mules and mounts and other service animals exist. trained animals are the result of, if anything, long-term applied animal handling skill. i'm not advocating for an infinite supply of on demand bomb sniffing trap testers and eager meat shields. rather, i'm recommending that that skill can be used to bridge the gap for gaining a party companion with all the expectations of a hireling: will in engage in combat, rather flee than die, has plausible reason to remain with group (pay/debt/shelter), etc. somehow it's entirely more important to me that the 'pet' follow the character/group on purpose rather than being simply a directed damage effect wearing an animal pelt.
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I mean, I preferred picking a Beast stat block for the animal companions; the issues with 2014 pretty much were just the fact that they weren’t attacking on a Bonus Action. Just fix that and something to codify that they’re not gone at 0 HP and you should get about the same performance as a Drakewarden’s pet.
we just play these things out differently partly based on how we believe those creatures react and partly based on known our own group and their expectations (and how to use those expectations against them).
Sure, you can absolutely choose to make Push super effective by having enemies act in a way to make it super effective, but that's true of all of the weapon masteries - they can all be awesome if the DM decides to have enemies make decisions that make them awesome. It's not really an argument that one Mastery is objectively better than another Mastery, or that one specific tactic is the best strategy.
I think BM being slightly MAD is fine. Yes, it'll take you longer to fully max out your attacks since they rely on both Dex and Wis, than a more SAD ranger subclass like Hunter or Fey Wanderer that only needs to focus on one or the other - but I think there are definitely benefits to BM that offset this drawback. I think you'll be fine with 16 Wis for most or even all of your career on a BM.
we just play these things out differently partly based on how we believe those creatures react and partly based on known our own group and their expectations (and how to use those expectations against them).
Sure, you can absolutely choose to make Push super effective by having enemies act in a way to make it super effective, but that's true of all of the weapon masteries - they can all be awesome if the DM decides to have enemies make decisions that make them awesome. It's not really an argument that one Mastery is objectively better than another Mastery, or that one specific tactic is the best strategy.
your argument is that the creature flees, which is still basically still an easy fight for the party. Since if all enemies are afraid to get in that polearm range, your fighter now becomes the master of battlefield control, it is your method that actually makes Polearm+PAM+Push even stronger. Your other argument is that the creature searches for another target but that doesn't really take in the area of control that a polearm has, polearms reach 10 foot, which gives a very large area of control, so the creature is gunna have to dash or has to fly or burrow, if those are even options.
And another way is that you have a 3 vs 1, 3 wolves vs 1 fighter, the fighter pushes all three wolves back (lucky rolls) by throwing one attack on each, you're going to have all three wolves retreat? or perhaps replace em with bandits, every single time each bandit just runs? Sorry, but the way you're saying all creatures react to polearms actually makes polearms even more insanely strong when they have push. If played this way, every animal ever should flee from every combat ever when they learn pointy things, sharp things or blunt things hurt, and that goes past how push works.
we just play these things out differently partly based on how we believe those creatures react and partly based on known our own group and their expectations (and how to use those expectations against them).
Sure, you can absolutely choose to make Push super effective by having enemies act in a way to make it super effective, but that's true of all of the weapon masteries - they can all be awesome if the DM decides to have enemies make decisions that make them awesome. It's not really an argument that one Mastery is objectively better than another Mastery, or that one specific tactic is the best strategy.
your argument is that the creature flees,
That is not my argument, my argument is that it will look for another target. The only way, it isn't possible for the monsters to just go after a different party member is if every single member of the party is within 5ft of the PAM fighter, in which case they are going to be obliterated by an AoE ability. Otherwise, the enemies can simply run around the PAM fighter, and attack another member of the party, If the enemies need to Dash to reach them then most likely the PAM fighter will also have to Dash to catch up with the enemies to attack them. It is exceedingly rare for every party member to perfectly position themselves at exactly the right distance from each other to make it so that that is not the case, and even if they did, they would be super vulnerable to Line or Cone AoEs.
You making so many assumptions in your arguments: 1. the enemy are all in one direction with respect to the party - what if the enemies have circled the party? what if they try to flank from 2 directions? what if they dig up from the ground amongst the party? what if they fly in from above? or emerge from a river beside the party? 2. the party gets to position themselves before any of the enemies attack - most combats don't have a surprise round, so how is this happening? Does the party walk through the forest in perfect battle formation? Do they hang out on boats standing in perfect battle formation? 3. there are no constraints on the positioning of the party - squishies can easily stand 50 ft away from the enemies with no walls, vegetation, terrain, or obstacles obstructing their view or falling down a cliff, do you never fight in a dungeon where there are corners, doors, and pillars that get in the way? Never along a coast or cliff? Never on a boat, bridge, or top of a tower? 4. the enemies move slowly, can't fly, swim, climb, jump or burrow, only have melee attacks, and are dumb animals (i.e. you only ever fight zombies?)
A 10ft reach + Push means nothing when fighting a giant frog than can jump 20ft in a single bound, a Roper with 50ft reach, a dragon/griffin with a 60 ft fly speed, a Bulette that can burrow & jump, a spider that can climb across the ceiling, a vampire that can move 40ft as a Legendary action, a gith that can Misty Step, a mounted knight who's horse runs at 80 ft per round, a dire wolf with at 50ft walk speed, a giant that can lob a rock, a Hydra that is too large to be Pushed, merrow that can harpoon you...
Thinking about it.... there are only a handful of enemies in my current campaign where Push + PAM would actually have done anything, we've had: - Giant spiders coming out of the sewers (emerged among the party, slightly helpful) - a Manticore in a Warehouse (ranged attacks) - Ice Elemental in a small cave (would have helped) - Merrow from below a bridge (ranged attacks) - Hag on a broom in a swamp (flying & range) - Harpies along a coastal cliff (no where to go & flying) - Merrow & Harpies in a lighthouse (lots of small rooms with no where to push them) - Assassins in an alley (range) - Vampire in a Mine (movement as Legendary Action) - Yeth hounds & Hag in a Forest (would have helped here) - Centaur Knights, Harengon archers + Korreds at a farm (would have helped vs Korreds, but actually helped the Centaurs get in more Charge attacks) - Warlock cultists in a cave (range & limited movement) - Baby Kraken in a cave (too big to push) - Lava Golems in a volcano (party was surrounded)
we just play these things out differently partly based on how we believe those creatures react and partly based on known our own group and their expectations (and how to use those expectations against them).
Sure, you can absolutely choose to make Push super effective by having enemies act in a way to make it super effective, but that's true of all of the weapon masteries - they can all be awesome if the DM decides to have enemies make decisions that make them awesome. It's not really an argument that one Mastery is objectively better than another Mastery, or that one specific tactic is the best strategy.
your argument is that the creature flees, which is still basically still an easy fight for the party. Since if all enemies are afraid to get in that polearm range, your fighter now becomes the master of battlefield control, it is your method that actually makes Polearm+PAM+Push even stronger. Your other argument is that the creature searches for another target but that doesn't really take in the area of control that a polearm has, polearms reach 10 foot, which gives a very large area of control, so the creature is gunna have to dash or has to fly or burrow, if those are even options.
And another way is that you have a 3 vs 1, 3 wolves vs 1 fighter, the fighter pushes all three wolves back (lucky rolls) by throwing one attack on each, you're going to have all three wolves retreat? or perhaps replace em with bandits, every single time each bandit just runs? Sorry, but the way you're saying all creatures react to polearms actually makes polearms even more insanely strong when they have push. If played this way, every animal ever should flee from every combat ever when they learn pointy things, sharp things or blunt things hurt, and that goes past how push works.
other than guaranteed BA,
The main use of PAM with push is keep away, and reaction attacks, its pretty useful for that strat, but not every team needs keep away. If I am a grappler, this goes against my primary use case, If I want max damage, I might prefer graze, vex, or cleave. If my group is trying to gather enemies, spreading them out might be an issue, And your extended reach on polearms gives enemies more free movement within your space. Now if you are not pushing, they have can walk around within 10 feet with no penalty.
And there are certain enemies which won't need to play the walk back to you game, which gives no real benefit.
Different enemies are designed to be played differently, and have different strengths, its good that there are weapons with various tactical advantages.
to be honest, imo consistent weaponizing of BA attacks is hard for other weapons to compete with, since its generally not mutually exclusive with other dmg feats for other weapons. I think each weapon style needs something that competes, probably tied to a BA.
lets say gwm had a BA option: Decimate: As BA, until next round, your two hand weapon melee attacks do 2(maybe 1 if two is too much) additional dmg (any hit including graze), and if you kill an enemy, or get critical you can make another attack as part of the attack action, you can only get this benefit once per turn.
as a part of Dual wielder, or as part of another feat for dual wielding, Dual strike: As a BA, if you make an attack with a weapon in one hand, immediately after, you can hit with a weapon the other hand using the same attack roll. the advantage here is better accuracy, instead of 65% chance, it'll basically be extremely likely, and since it uses the same attack roll, could benefit from criticals.
dual wielding would be most accurate, (and diverse mastery options) then PAM, then GWM, with GWM being most damage potential, but most spikey
shield master needs an improvement imo. now that prone has many other means.
we just play these things out differently partly based on how we believe those creatures react and partly based on known our own group and their expectations (and how to use those expectations against them).
Sure, you can absolutely choose to make Push super effective by having enemies act in a way to make it super effective, but that's true of all of the weapon masteries - they can all be awesome if the DM decides to have enemies make decisions that make them awesome. It's not really an argument that one Mastery is objectively better than another Mastery, or that one specific tactic is the best strategy.
your argument is that the creature flees,
That is not my argument, my argument is that it will look for another target.
your argument is that the creature flees, which is still basically still an easy fight for the party. Since if all enemies are afraid to get in that polearm range, your fighter now becomes the master of battlefield control, it is your method that actually makes Polearm+PAM+Push even stronger. Your other argument is that the creature searches for another target but that doesn't really take in the area of control that a polearm has, polearms reach 10 foot, which gives a very large area of control, so the creature is gunna have to dash or has to fly or burrow, if those are even options.
Clearly already addressed this point, you can say you never made the first argument, but you did make that argument that creatures would flee.
PS 50% of enemies move faster than the PCs so fleeing should be trivial. Unless you are in the lair of a monster it really has little reason to fight to the death if it is in a disadvantageous position.
That is not my argument, my argument is that it will look for another target. The only way, it isn't possible for the monsters to just go after a different party member is if every single member of the party is within 5ft of the PAM fighter, in which case they are going to be obliterated by an AoE ability. Otherwise, the enemies can simply run around the PAM fighter, and attack another member of the party, If the enemies need to Dash to reach them then most likely the PAM fighter will also have to Dash to catch up with the enemies to attack them. It is exceedingly rare for every party member to perfectly position themselves at exactly the right distance from each other to make it so that that is not the case, and even if they did, they would be super vulnerable to Line or Cone AoEs.
This is just incorrect, You're really ignoring just how large the area of control a Polearm has. If say the wizard you mentioned in previous posts is 20 foot behind the fighter, the creature 15 foot in front, to get behind the the fighter would need a minimum of 45* foot of movement, to get to the wizard, to get to the wizard and the further it can from the fighter, that would need 50* foot, in this position it would only be 25 foot from the fighter, the fighter would only need to move 15 foot to be in range of attacking, the fighter can attack, push it back 10 foot, move another 10 foot and with another attack landing push it back another 10 foot. This manoeuvrer would leave the fighter diagonal to the wizard but with another 5 foot of movement, where they could move adjacent. This is all to say that "just walking around" really isn't a viable tactic, and most creatures in real-life sure as heck wouldn't try dashing around like that since they know they'd be leaving their sides vulnerable. If the wizard is 30 foot or further back, it's pretty much a good game if they can't burrow, teleport and become unseen in some method.
*this is assuming diagonal movement is countered as 5 feet, this is assuming that moving diagonal across the very corner of the zone of control is not considered as triggering the reactionary attack, more likely it'd be counted as 55 foot of movement using more normal ways of calculating diagonal movement, or 60 foot to be as far away from the fighter as possible.
1. the enemy are all in one direction with respect to the party - what if the enemies have circled the party? what if they try to flank from 2 directions? what if they dig up from the ground amongst the party? what if they fly in from above? or emerge from a river beside the party? 2. the party gets to position themselves before any of the enemies attack - most combats don't have a surprise round, so how is this happening? Does the party walk through the forest in perfect battle formation? Do they hang out on boats standing in perfect battle formation? 3. there are no constraints on the positioning of the party - squishies can easily stand 50 ft away from the enemies with no walls, vegetation, terrain, or obstacles obstructing their view or falling down a cliff, do you never fight in a dungeon where there are corners, doors, and pillars that get in the way? Never along a coast or cliff? Never on a boat, bridge, or top of a tower? 4. the enemies move slowly, can't fly, swim, climb, jump or burrow, only have melee attacks, and are dumb animals (i.e. you only ever fight zombies?)
A 10ft reach + Push means nothing when fighting a giant frog than can jump 20ft in a single bound, a Roper with 50ft reach, a dragon/griffin with a 60 ft fly speed, a Bulette that can burrow & jump, a spider that can climb across the ceiling, a vampire that can move 40ft as a Legendary action, a gith that can Misty Step, a mounted knight who's horse runs at 80 ft per round, a dire wolf with at 50ft walk speed, a giant that can lob a rock, a Hydra that is too large to be Pushed, merrow that can harpoon you...
Thinking about it.... there are only a handful of enemies in my current campaign where Push + PAM would actually have done anything, we've had: - Giant spiders coming out of the sewers (emerged among the party, slightly helpful) - a Manticore in a Warehouse (ranged attacks) - Ice Elemental in a small cave (would have helped) - Merrow from below a bridge (ranged attacks) - Hag on a broom in a swamp (flying & range) - Harpies along a coastal cliff (no where to go & flying) - Merrow & Harpies in a lighthouse (lots of small rooms with no where to push them) - Assassins in an alley (range) - Vampire in a Mine (movement as Legendary Action) - Yeth hounds & Hag in a Forest (would have helped here) - Centaur Knights, Harengon archers + Korreds at a farm (would have helped vs Korreds, but actually helped the Centaurs get in more Charge attacks) - Warlock cultists in a cave (range & limited movement) - Baby Kraken in a cave (too big to push) - Lava Golems in a volcano (party was surrounded)
1. Not a major issue, If the party is taken by surprise or even if they are flanked without surprise, the first turn the fighter takes action they are still going to push the creatures back with the push weapons and other party members are going to reposition if they can, so that they are then behind the fighter again. If the enemies entirely encircle the party, the fighter is still able to push some creatures back, which reduces the pressure on the rest of the party and those creatures are then stuck in a difficult position to get back to the party with. Full encirclement is quiet rare, even when compared to flanking tho. Overall the tactic of pushing back for baiting the reactionary attack or forcing the creatures to waste a turn due to the zoning is still working quiet well here.
2. Who stands at the front of the party? probably a scout like a rogue, a ranger or a bard, then behind them the front liners like fighter, barbarian, paladin, then usually your support or another damage dealer is behind that, be that a bard, a cleric, a druid, a monk or a ranger, then at the rear is usually the spell casters. even if the party isn't travelling in a perfect line, they are generally going to travel in a formation (even if loose) where they are roughly in that type of formation. The scout is usually a high initiative character so they move behind the front-liners at start of combat, this leave the front-liners at the front and the rest of the party can reposition behind them quiet easily.
3. See my earlier points on chokepoints, most dungeon situtations make it near impossible for creatures to get past the fighter at all, since a polearm can control a chokepoint up to 25 foot wide, that is massive, that controls all corridors, doors are even better, stand behind the door with party behind you and just continually attack with the polearm through the door, doing pushbacks, now your spellcasters can a nice area to leave spells like cloud of daggers, moonbeam, spike growth, etc since the creatures are forced through a very narrow and easily controlled chokepoint. Basically dungeons make the polearm push tactic even better since you can chokepoint an enclosured area better than an open up. As for a cliff, you literally have a push weapon, unless you mean you're at the bottom of the cliff, this is extremely beneficial for push, since you can push creatures OVER the cliff edge.
4. The giant frog jumping 20 foot is not enough to clear the area of control, it still needs to go around it, if you assume that the area of control is 2D then a giant frog would need to be able to clear around 35 foot in a single jump to bypass, if you assume the area of control is 3D, then it's pointless since the jump height is a maximum of 10 foot and the jump can't bypass the polearm at all.
So let's discuss the rest.
Giant spiders coming out of the sewers (emerged among the party, slightly helpful)
would need to know more of the sewers, but sewers usually aren't that big, of course fantasy sewers might be bigger or have big large rooms in them that would be rarer in real life, but generally speaking if you know where most of the sewer tunnels are, you can just position the fighter towards those and it's job done.
a Manticore in a Warehouse (ranged attacks)
Ranged enemies will be where the tactic doesn't work as well, I never said it was 100%. However even in this case, the fighter is going to be able to push back the manticore which may place it into positions where moving is difficult, a warehouse is going to impede it's ability to fly a good amount and if you can push it into a position where the wizard or other ranged party members can hide behind various boxes and pop-out to just cast a spell before hiding again, the manticore is effectively zoned still. If the manticore does ready an action for ranged character popping their heads out, a readied action would lose it's multiattack, so that also is still against the manticore.
Ice Elemental in a small cave (would have helped)
sounds like homebrew, so can't comment.
Merrow from below a bridge (ranged attacks)
Merrow's range is really low, 20/60 foot. They could be more effective but they are basically skirting the edge of the fighter's area of control the whole time and they will get pushed back to a point where they are going to be out of that 20 foot range a lot, overall they'd have to focus the fighter and not other units, so the push weapon is still doing a good job here since it's controlling who the Merrow can realistically target.
Hag on a broom in a swamp (flying & range)
Obviously, against a hag this isn't going to work well, unless the hag on the broom comes into range, then there is an argument about if the hag can maintain hold on the broom when pushed off of it by a push weapon but Eldritch Blast works way better for that.
Harpies along a coastal cliff (no where to go & flying)
Harpies can be a pain for multiple reasons (mostly luring song), flying with the cliff obviously limits the tactic but harpies lack any form of ranged attack, so the zone of control is still a big issue for them, it's extra attacks they have to deal with to get in close to attack, so you can protect your most vulnerable party members.
Merrow & Harpies in a lighthouse (lots of small rooms with no where to push them)
the Merrow should be EASILY controlled in this situtation, depending on where the harpies are, they are are going to have issues here, they are still melee only and pushing them back into a wall with a 15 foot distance still means that for them to attack they need to enter the zone of control. The main issue here is the luring song again,
Assassins in an alley (range)
With a push weapon, you're still gaining zone control, where potentially your other party members can hide around corners for cover and just pop head out to attack/cast spells.
Vampire in a Mine (movement as Legendary Action)
Will need to see how vampire changes but as PAM stands in the UA, the legendary action movement would trigger the PAM reactionary attack as it is not an opportunity attack anymore, so to get around that the vampire would need to burn 2 legendary actions instead of 1, which is a win.
Yeth hounds & Hag in a Forest (would have helped here)
no need for futher comment.
Centaur Knights, Harengon archers + Korreds at a farm (would have helped vs Korreds, but actually helped the Centaurs get in more Charge attacks)
I would argue that the PAM reaction actually breaks Charge attack, since the reaction goes first, if the centaur is pushed away 10 foot after moving 30 foot towards you, it has no longer moved 30 straight towards the target, which is the requirement for charge attack.
Warlock cultists in a cave (range & limited movement)
Clearly a place where the push tactic is going to be limited or not useful
Baby Kraken in a cave (too big to push)
obviously a situtation the push tactic won't work
Lava Golems in a volcano (party was surrounded)
can't really comment on homebrew again, being surrounded can still be aided by push, since it gives some leeway for party to have some movement.
I am not claiming that the push mastery works in 100% of situations, only that it is a very powerful mastery that goes an insane distance, obviously most martial characters using a polearm, should probably have more than just 1 polearm anyway. Weapon switching in latest UA is very easy, so holding a pike as a default weapon and then switching to another polearm in the situations push doesn't work, is quiet easy. The situations push does work with a polearm, it's clearly doing more than any other mastery is.
Oh no, having to actually choose an area of focus instead of being a master of everything! How unprecedented in an RPG!
But that's precisely what I'm saying I want 😂 I want to be able to choose between focusing on Dex or Wis instead of being locked on Wis.
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Then focus on DEX; you probably won't even notice the difference in pet performance.
i kinda like the idea that focusing wis has a tangible pet benefit. I'm not sure it's worth aiming for if you don't already want the magic and skills bonuses. actually, I'd go the other way: maybe wish animal handling bonus was added to pet attack damage or something. more wis bonus, not less.
but, yeah, if you want to be good with weapons and have a pet then i reiterate: go dex and ask the dm for an encounter with a cool animal you can save, befriend, and train up. beast master is an example template you can mostly replicate with a single skill proficiency. which is wild when you think about it.
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Beastmaster exists so DM's don't have to either work out how "training up" a pet works or deal with people who keep asking even though the DM isn't inclined to give them a custom pet. Animal Handling in 5e is not meant to give you a full battle pet; it's for brief interactions with animals, trying to do things like calm them, trick them, or rouse them.
How intelligent is your creature? does your creature even have anything but melee? I mean, what is an Owlbear going to do? The only other option is fleeing. If your creature does have ranged attacks, are they going to stand still while they range attack or move backwards? They're going to get choke-pointed or controlled if they retreat too much. Basically, it's keep attacking or it's getting zoned and neither generally end well for the creature, that is meant to be the power of a polearm to begin with after all. But naturally different types of creatures should react in different ways to the situation and that is up to you as a DM to determine how different creatures act. Perhaps a wizard would think of some alternative method but a wolf or a giant constrictor snake generally isn't, they probably aren't going to survive 3~4 rounds of combat under that situation to learn from it anyway.
Have you never had a pet? It only takes one maybe two instances of getting pushed away from something for them learn they can't get to that thing and then lose interest - and 90% of enemies at least as smart as a dog in D&D. Not everyone in the party is a PAM, it's real easy for them to go after the wizard, or rogue, or monk, or bard, or cleric, or druid rather than the PAM fighter, and most of the time you aren't fighting in a narrow hallway or in a doorway where one character can block the movement of the enemies.
PS 50% of enemies move faster than the PCs so fleeing should be trivial. Unless you are in the lair of a monster it really has little reason to fight to the death if it is in a disadvantageous position.
You realise that a pet is different from a hunting pack right? hunting animals do not give up that easily, Lions chasing gazelle sometimes get kicked in the face, doesn't mean they aren't going to hunt gazelle any more. You can't base predator behaviour on your pet, that isn't to say predators are less intelligent but they have stronger motivations than your (presumably well fed) pet does and aren't going to be anywhere near as easily put off from something as you're implying. A lot of beasts and other similar type creatures are going to attack the party because A) they are hungry and need food or B) they are defending their territory, these are not things your pet is doing with you because they aren't getting to that level of hunger, you are part of the territory and they have a connection to you.
In the case a creature realises it is outmatched or the risk of damage is too great, most are not going to fight any more, they are going for flight, if it's cornered then it reverts back to fight, even if the fight is not in it's favour.
Have you not watched nature documentaries? Lions do not hunt the strongest most able to defend themselves prey, they pick out the weakest and easiest to kill. They would try to hunt the wizard, not the fighter, and 75% of the time hunting lions give up without catching anything. A hunting creature is not going to keep attacking a heavily armoured fighter that hurts it and throws it back 10 ft. As I said, only if you are inside it's lair would most dumb monsters fight to the death, and even then if it is 10 ft away from the PAM fighter, because they pushed it way from them, why would it choose to attack the PAM fighter rather than someone else? It has a whole party to choose from, all of which are presumably equally inside it's lair, and all of them require it to move to reach them since the PAM fighter keeps pushing it away from themselves, so what reason does it have to keep going after the PAM fighter rather than a different member of the party?
I mean, if the monster is toe-to-toe with the fighter, and the fighter has their weapon poised to strike if the monster gives them an opening (Attack of Opportunity) sure, it has a good reason to keep attacking the fighter. But if it is safely 10 ft away from the fighter, why would it choose to attack the fighter rather than someone else?
I am an avid fan of David Attenborough, and yes, Lions fail a lot, I never mentioned about who the predator targets because that is partially irrelevant to the conversation. The wizard is going to position themselves in the safest spot and the wizard might not look like the weakest target, animals can tell things like blood and if your front-liner looks bloody, they may look like the easier target. Lions mostly give up hunts due to stamina, they can sprint a short distance and going any longer may cause them to overheat, which can lead to serious conditions. Risk can be a factor when dealing with larger prey like elephants or hippos that could almost near 1 hit kill a lion, and yet lions will continue to hunt such dangerous prey.
Do your parties stand in-front of the fighter or behind the fighter? fighter with PAM is usually on the front lines and that gives a huge zone of control, a fighter with a polearm can effectively control a very large choke point (up to 25 foot wide), as a fighter with a polearm, you then stand in that middle spot, that creature has no other available targets since to get to other targets it has to travel through the fighter's zone of control.
In a place where the fighter can not gain a zone of control over a whole checkpoint, then the creature could attempt to go for another party member, but to do so it still needs to travel around the fighter's zone of control. Assuming the fighter is 15 foot away and the party behind, the creature would need to travel a minimum of 30 foot to get behind the fighter, at one of the two sides, which is unlikely to be the position the party is going to hold, they are more likely another 20 foot further away. So while some creatures get 60 foot of movement, most don't, they'd have to sprint, at which point they wasted most of their turn which will be followed by the fighter coming in and hitting the creature again with their polearm and pushing it back until the fighter once again is between it and the party.
In the case you have another front-liner, they could stand 5ft from the fighter, the fighter can then still target the creature when it comes to attack that ally since they are entering the 10 foot reach of the polearm, so polearms are very effective here, it could be the case the creature is intelligent enough to attack from an angle with cover, but this would only supply half-cover and the fighter can still take their reaction with the creature having a +2 AC bonus against it.
And at this point we are focusing on just beasts, which is not the same as humans, humans have very different motivations too and might get killed for cowardice in war, or bandits might believe they have enough numbers that they won't be the one targetted by the reaction since they aren't thinking of things in terms of "actions or reactions" when planning targets, it is combat and the fighter has closer targets. Overall there is multiple reasons why different types of creatures would re-enter that range which goes back to the previous point that it is down to the DM to decide how creatures react. You might not believe any creature would ever re-enter that range, i personally see multiple reasons and we'd DM it differently, that does not necessarily mean either of us are wrong either, we just play these things out differently partly based on how we believe those creatures react and partly based on known our own group and their expectations (and how to use those expectations against them).
beastmaster is definitely the lazy "so you want a pet?" simplification and it suffers for that. the statblock is not a huge innovation over sidekick progression. heck, one example in the DMG is a wolf sidekick. the subclass basically only adds force damage pet attacks and pet resurrection.
according to the basic rules, animal handling is there to calm animals down or get your mount to do something. yawn. we can agree it is definitely not intended to provide a pokemon experience. however, scent hounds and sheep dogs and hunting raptors and pack mules and mounts and other service animals exist. trained animals are the result of, if anything, long-term applied animal handling skill. i'm not advocating for an infinite supply of on demand bomb sniffing trap testers and eager meat shields. rather, i'm recommending that that skill can be used to bridge the gap for gaining a party companion with all the expectations of a hireling: will in engage in combat, rather flee than die, has plausible reason to remain with group (pay/debt/shelter), etc. somehow it's entirely more important to me that the 'pet' follow the character/group on purpose rather than being simply a directed damage effect wearing an animal pelt.
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I mean, I preferred picking a Beast stat block for the animal companions; the issues with 2014 pretty much were just the fact that they weren’t attacking on a Bonus Action. Just fix that and something to codify that they’re not gone at 0 HP and you should get about the same performance as a Drakewarden’s pet.
Sure, you can absolutely choose to make Push super effective by having enemies act in a way to make it super effective, but that's true of all of the weapon masteries - they can all be awesome if the DM decides to have enemies make decisions that make them awesome. It's not really an argument that one Mastery is objectively better than another Mastery, or that one specific tactic is the best strategy.
I think BM being slightly MAD is fine. Yes, it'll take you longer to fully max out your attacks since they rely on both Dex and Wis, than a more SAD ranger subclass like Hunter or Fey Wanderer that only needs to focus on one or the other - but I think there are definitely benefits to BM that offset this drawback. I think you'll be fine with 16 Wis for most or even all of your career on a BM.
your argument is that the creature flees, which is still basically still an easy fight for the party. Since if all enemies are afraid to get in that polearm range, your fighter now becomes the master of battlefield control, it is your method that actually makes Polearm+PAM+Push even stronger. Your other argument is that the creature searches for another target but that doesn't really take in the area of control that a polearm has, polearms reach 10 foot, which gives a very large area of control, so the creature is gunna have to dash or has to fly or burrow, if those are even options.
And another way is that you have a 3 vs 1, 3 wolves vs 1 fighter, the fighter pushes all three wolves back (lucky rolls) by throwing one attack on each, you're going to have all three wolves retreat? or perhaps replace em with bandits, every single time each bandit just runs? Sorry, but the way you're saying all creatures react to polearms actually makes polearms even more insanely strong when they have push. If played this way, every animal ever should flee from every combat ever when they learn pointy things, sharp things or blunt things hurt, and that goes past how push works.
That is not my argument, my argument is that it will look for another target. The only way, it isn't possible for the monsters to just go after a different party member is if every single member of the party is within 5ft of the PAM fighter, in which case they are going to be obliterated by an AoE ability. Otherwise, the enemies can simply run around the PAM fighter, and attack another member of the party, If the enemies need to Dash to reach them then most likely the PAM fighter will also have to Dash to catch up with the enemies to attack them. It is exceedingly rare for every party member to perfectly position themselves at exactly the right distance from each other to make it so that that is not the case, and even if they did, they would be super vulnerable to Line or Cone AoEs.
You making so many assumptions in your arguments:
1. the enemy are all in one direction with respect to the party - what if the enemies have circled the party? what if they try to flank from 2 directions? what if they dig up from the ground amongst the party? what if they fly in from above? or emerge from a river beside the party?
2. the party gets to position themselves before any of the enemies attack - most combats don't have a surprise round, so how is this happening? Does the party walk through the forest in perfect battle formation? Do they hang out on boats standing in perfect battle formation?
3. there are no constraints on the positioning of the party - squishies can easily stand 50 ft away from the enemies with no walls, vegetation, terrain, or obstacles obstructing their view or falling down a cliff, do you never fight in a dungeon where there are corners, doors, and pillars that get in the way? Never along a coast or cliff? Never on a boat, bridge, or top of a tower?
4. the enemies move slowly, can't fly, swim, climb, jump or burrow, only have melee attacks, and are dumb animals (i.e. you only ever fight zombies?)
A 10ft reach + Push means nothing when fighting a giant frog than can jump 20ft in a single bound, a Roper with 50ft reach, a dragon/griffin with a 60 ft fly speed, a Bulette that can burrow & jump, a spider that can climb across the ceiling, a vampire that can move 40ft as a Legendary action, a gith that can Misty Step, a mounted knight who's horse runs at 80 ft per round, a dire wolf with at 50ft walk speed, a giant that can lob a rock, a Hydra that is too large to be Pushed, merrow that can harpoon you...
Thinking about it.... there are only a handful of enemies in my current campaign where Push + PAM would actually have done anything, we've had:
- Giant spiders coming out of the sewers (emerged among the party, slightly helpful)
- a Manticore in a Warehouse (ranged attacks)
- Ice Elemental in a small cave (would have helped)
- Merrow from below a bridge (ranged attacks)
- Hag on a broom in a swamp (flying & range)
- Harpies along a coastal cliff (no where to go & flying)
- Merrow & Harpies in a lighthouse (lots of small rooms with no where to push them)
- Assassins in an alley (range)
- Vampire in a Mine (movement as Legendary Action)
- Yeth hounds & Hag in a Forest (would have helped here)
- Centaur Knights, Harengon archers + Korreds at a farm (would have helped vs Korreds, but actually helped the Centaurs get in more Charge attacks)
- Warlock cultists in a cave (range & limited movement)
- Baby Kraken in a cave (too big to push)
- Lava Golems in a volcano (party was surrounded)
other than guaranteed BA,
The main use of PAM with push is keep away, and reaction attacks, its pretty useful for that strat, but not every team needs keep away. If I am a grappler, this goes against my primary use case, If I want max damage, I might prefer graze, vex, or cleave. If my group is trying to gather enemies, spreading them out might be an issue, And your extended reach on polearms gives enemies more free movement within your space. Now if you are not pushing, they have can walk around within 10 feet with no penalty.
And there are certain enemies which won't need to play the walk back to you game, which gives no real benefit.
Different enemies are designed to be played differently, and have different strengths, its good that there are weapons with various tactical advantages.
to be honest, imo consistent weaponizing of BA attacks is hard for other weapons to compete with, since its generally not mutually exclusive with other dmg feats for other weapons. I think each weapon style needs something that competes, probably tied to a BA.
lets say gwm had a BA option: Decimate: As BA, until next round, your two hand weapon melee attacks do 2(maybe 1 if two is too much) additional dmg (any hit including graze), and if you kill an enemy, or get critical you can make another attack as part of the attack action, you can only get this benefit once per turn.
as a part of Dual wielder, or as part of another feat for dual wielding, Dual strike: As a BA, if you make an attack with a weapon in one hand, immediately after, you can hit with a weapon the other hand using the same attack roll. the advantage here is better accuracy, instead of 65% chance, it'll basically be extremely likely, and since it uses the same attack roll, could benefit from criticals.
dual wielding would be most accurate, (and diverse mastery options) then PAM, then GWM, with GWM being most damage potential, but most spikey
shield master needs an improvement imo. now that prone has many other means.
why quote mine?
Clearly already addressed this point, you can say you never made the first argument, but you did make that argument that creatures would flee.
Anyway, to the rest of your response.
This is just incorrect, You're really ignoring just how large the area of control a Polearm has. If say the wizard you mentioned in previous posts is 20 foot behind the fighter, the creature 15 foot in front, to get behind the the fighter would need a minimum of 45* foot of movement, to get to the wizard, to get to the wizard and the further it can from the fighter, that would need 50* foot, in this position it would only be 25 foot from the fighter, the fighter would only need to move 15 foot to be in range of attacking, the fighter can attack, push it back 10 foot, move another 10 foot and with another attack landing push it back another 10 foot. This manoeuvrer would leave the fighter diagonal to the wizard but with another 5 foot of movement, where they could move adjacent. This is all to say that "just walking around" really isn't a viable tactic, and most creatures in real-life sure as heck wouldn't try dashing around like that since they know they'd be leaving their sides vulnerable. If the wizard is 30 foot or further back, it's pretty much a good game if they can't burrow, teleport and become unseen in some method.
*this is assuming diagonal movement is countered as 5 feet, this is assuming that moving diagonal across the very corner of the zone of control is not considered as triggering the reactionary attack, more likely it'd be counted as 55 foot of movement using more normal ways of calculating diagonal movement, or 60 foot to be as far away from the fighter as possible.
1. Not a major issue, If the party is taken by surprise or even if they are flanked without surprise, the first turn the fighter takes action they are still going to push the creatures back with the push weapons and other party members are going to reposition if they can, so that they are then behind the fighter again. If the enemies entirely encircle the party, the fighter is still able to push some creatures back, which reduces the pressure on the rest of the party and those creatures are then stuck in a difficult position to get back to the party with. Full encirclement is quiet rare, even when compared to flanking tho. Overall the tactic of pushing back for baiting the reactionary attack or forcing the creatures to waste a turn due to the zoning is still working quiet well here.
2. Who stands at the front of the party? probably a scout like a rogue, a ranger or a bard, then behind them the front liners like fighter, barbarian, paladin, then usually your support or another damage dealer is behind that, be that a bard, a cleric, a druid, a monk or a ranger, then at the rear is usually the spell casters. even if the party isn't travelling in a perfect line, they are generally going to travel in a formation (even if loose) where they are roughly in that type of formation. The scout is usually a high initiative character so they move behind the front-liners at start of combat, this leave the front-liners at the front and the rest of the party can reposition behind them quiet easily.
3. See my earlier points on chokepoints, most dungeon situtations make it near impossible for creatures to get past the fighter at all, since a polearm can control a chokepoint up to 25 foot wide, that is massive, that controls all corridors, doors are even better, stand behind the door with party behind you and just continually attack with the polearm through the door, doing pushbacks, now your spellcasters can a nice area to leave spells like cloud of daggers, moonbeam, spike growth, etc since the creatures are forced through a very narrow and easily controlled chokepoint. Basically dungeons make the polearm push tactic even better since you can chokepoint an enclosured area better than an open up. As for a cliff, you literally have a push weapon, unless you mean you're at the bottom of the cliff, this is extremely beneficial for push, since you can push creatures OVER the cliff edge.
4. The giant frog jumping 20 foot is not enough to clear the area of control, it still needs to go around it, if you assume that the area of control is 2D then a giant frog would need to be able to clear around 35 foot in a single jump to bypass, if you assume the area of control is 3D, then it's pointless since the jump height is a maximum of 10 foot and the jump can't bypass the polearm at all.
So let's discuss the rest.
would need to know more of the sewers, but sewers usually aren't that big, of course fantasy sewers might be bigger or have big large rooms in them that would be rarer in real life, but generally speaking if you know where most of the sewer tunnels are, you can just position the fighter towards those and it's job done.
Ranged enemies will be where the tactic doesn't work as well, I never said it was 100%. However even in this case, the fighter is going to be able to push back the manticore which may place it into positions where moving is difficult, a warehouse is going to impede it's ability to fly a good amount and if you can push it into a position where the wizard or other ranged party members can hide behind various boxes and pop-out to just cast a spell before hiding again, the manticore is effectively zoned still. If the manticore does ready an action for ranged character popping their heads out, a readied action would lose it's multiattack, so that also is still against the manticore.
sounds like homebrew, so can't comment.
Merrow's range is really low, 20/60 foot. They could be more effective but they are basically skirting the edge of the fighter's area of control the whole time and they will get pushed back to a point where they are going to be out of that 20 foot range a lot, overall they'd have to focus the fighter and not other units, so the push weapon is still doing a good job here since it's controlling who the Merrow can realistically target.
Obviously, against a hag this isn't going to work well, unless the hag on the broom comes into range, then there is an argument about if the hag can maintain hold on the broom when pushed off of it by a push weapon but Eldritch Blast works way better for that.
Harpies can be a pain for multiple reasons (mostly luring song), flying with the cliff obviously limits the tactic but harpies lack any form of ranged attack, so the zone of control is still a big issue for them, it's extra attacks they have to deal with to get in close to attack, so you can protect your most vulnerable party members.
the Merrow should be EASILY controlled in this situtation, depending on where the harpies are, they are are going to have issues here, they are still melee only and pushing them back into a wall with a 15 foot distance still means that for them to attack they need to enter the zone of control. The main issue here is the luring song again,
With a push weapon, you're still gaining zone control, where potentially your other party members can hide around corners for cover and just pop head out to attack/cast spells.
Will need to see how vampire changes but as PAM stands in the UA, the legendary action movement would trigger the PAM reactionary attack as it is not an opportunity attack anymore, so to get around that the vampire would need to burn 2 legendary actions instead of 1, which is a win.
no need for futher comment.
I would argue that the PAM reaction actually breaks Charge attack, since the reaction goes first, if the centaur is pushed away 10 foot after moving 30 foot towards you, it has no longer moved 30 straight towards the target, which is the requirement for charge attack.
Clearly a place where the push tactic is going to be limited or not useful
obviously a situtation the push tactic won't work
can't really comment on homebrew again, being surrounded can still be aided by push, since it gives some leeway for party to have some movement.
I am not claiming that the push mastery works in 100% of situations, only that it is a very powerful mastery that goes an insane distance, obviously most martial characters using a polearm, should probably have more than just 1 polearm anyway. Weapon switching in latest UA is very easy, so holding a pike as a default weapon and then switching to another polearm in the situations push doesn't work, is quiet easy. The situations push does work with a polearm, it's clearly doing more than any other mastery is.