I saw a can anything beat a 20th level wizard thread on reddit, and people are bringing up simulacrum,(hopefully nerfed) contingency etc so the answer was no for martials. And it got me thinking, really the only thing that deals with magic is magic. Want to defeat a spell use magic, want to stop a spell from being cast use magic. You used to be able to at least interrupt a spell. Maybe you can do enough damage to break concentration but that is pretty much it. While I think some of this should be core to the classes, I wonder why the heck don't they at least have sub classes with abilities for this. Where is the battle masters dispelling strike for example.
Basically my question is
1. Do you think martial classes should have built into their classes ways to defeat magic and I don't mean shrugging off a spell on them but ways to deal with like walls of fire, breaking illusions(tactical mind can help here) that pesky contingency. Bring back core ways to stop a spell form being cast, maybe not at will or 100% so it happens every cast(that would make liches boring encounters) but a limited resource method, or middling chance of success etc.
2. If not the core class should at least one subclass per class have counter magic capabilities?
3. Should feats be what fills in this blank?
And if the answer is yes to at least one of these what do you think it should look like.
While I am fine bringing back spellcasting creates an attack of opportunity which can stop it from being cast, I'd also want a way for a martial to dispel magic. Some kind of spell breaking feature. It would probably manifest differently on each class and should be limited to some degree, but I am not sure how it would work. Like another feature of second wind is making that one ability carry a lot of water, and reduces the desire to use it for tactical mind etc.
The first question that comes to mind for me is: if martials are given a way to interrupt casting- in whatever way- would casters then have a way to interrupt a martial's attack sequence?
In older editions, there used to be a mechanic for the concept of how quick a character's action was. A dagger could attack faster than a maul, for example. And a cantrip with only a verbal component might cast faster than a 1st level spell with a verbal, somatic, & material cost. If I'm remembering correctly, these quickness scales affected turn order (quicker actions went first). But I don't recall whether a spell could be interrupted in its casting.
I think I might have played a video game at some point where spells could be interrupted. I have no idea what that game might've been, but I do remember trying to cast spells and getting frustrated when they were interrupted all the time.
There are some spells in 5th edition that require you to concentrate on them over time before their effects come to fruition. For example: Wall of Stone can become permanent if you concentrate on it for the ful 10 minute duration. And that could be interrupted. But that's only an option- the impermanent version of the wall goes up and can't be interrupted. Only subsequently could the caster's concentration be broken to dispell the wall.
It's an interesting idea. But I'd be wary about instituting mechanics that allow characters to negate the actions of other characters before they can even happen. Counterspell holds a unique place in 5e, and even it was recognized as needing to be reigned in for the 2024 revision.
20th level is broken, but by the point you get the wish spell, you're basically immortal, the Clone spell means you can have a back-up body anywhere and the only way to counter that is to literally trap the caster's soul in a container of some sort or feed it to a lich, and also the material requirements for the Clone spell are quiet... harsh (1 cubic inch of your own flesh), the wish spell allows you to cast any spell of 8th level or lower without material components and clone is 8th level. A level 17 Wizard, Sorcerer or a Genie Warlock get access to wish, you can never permanently kill them, unless you have access to destroy or else wise capturer their soul.
So even if you did win the battle, you'd lose the war. Basically meaning it's meaningless to compare Wizard or Sorcerer to any other class at level 17, since Wish is such a powerful spell and allows you to basically leave clones of yourself all over the world. The only real way you're stopping them is with the soul cage spell.
But to answer the questions.
1. Martials have a way to stop most, grapple the caster and cover or stuff something into their mouth, only a subtle spell sorcerer might be able to counter that. Overall most BBEGs tend to be magical or have magic like abilities, and if magic became too easy to deal with, it'd have a knock on effect outside of inter-class balance. I do think martials should (with the exception of Paladin) should have more ways to deal with saving throws against spells tho, even if these were limited methods like a once a day, "NOPE!" to failing a save. In actual combat, casters are very limited to by spell slots.
2. I think the idea of a Paladin or Fighter that is specifically anti-mage has some potential but actually basing it entirely off of that premise won't work since most combats tend to involve little magic on the other side of combat from the players. Such a class would still predominately need to be dealing with non-magical creatures.
3. There is the mage slayer feat but it's underwhelming, it lost the reaction in the UA but got the method to "NOPE!" failed INT, WIS & CHA saving throws once per long rest. Overall, I believe the reaction should return as a once per long rest and it should be a concentration saving throw inflicted on to the caster against the ability modifier made to deal the attack. The saving throw would be made with disadvantage as per the Concentration Breaker part of the feat. Alternatively there should be another feat to do that.
D&D isn't a PvP game and breaks down under those assumptions. High level caster monsters tend to also be high level martials - consider the melee capabilities of a Great Wyrm dragon, an archdevil like Asmodeus, an archlich like Vecna etc. A vanilla level 20 fighter vs a vanilla level 20 wizard is not really the assumption of D&D's challenge system - rather the assumption is that any 4 classes of level X can overcome a challenge of CR X if they have level-appropriate gear.
1. Do you think martial classes should have built into their classes ways to defeat magic and I don't mean shrugging off a spell on them but ways to deal with like walls of fire, breaking illusions(tactical mind can help here) that pesky contingency. Bring back core ways to stop a spell form being cast, maybe not at will or 100% so it happens every cast(that would make liches boring encounters) but a limited resource method, or middling chance of success etc.
No, not really. I'd much rather than magic just get nerfed than adding a ton of reactions / counters because it is no fun for your character's spell to get countered. Spending your single 4th level slot in a day only to have it be counterspelled or dispelled is no fun. Already tons of players build for unbreakable concentration saves because losing a concentration spell is no fun. But otherwise, there shouldn't be any spells that incapacitate a creature for more than 1 round without granting additional saves or checks to escape it. Also all saving throws should really scale with player level rather than the weirdness we have now where each class gets 2 saves that scale with level and 4 that don't. Most tier 3-4 enemies have proficiency in 4 or more saves, it's weird that PCs are so limited.
2. If not the core class should at least one subclass per class have counter magic capabilities?
3. Should feats be what fills in this blank?
Nope, there is already the Mage Slayer feat for counter-magic play. It should get the AoO back. But otherwise I'd leave it to magic items for 1/day dispel magic on a martial. But really, the play-counter-play for martials vs casters is that the martial just kills the squishy caster before they can use their fancy magic.
The first question that comes to mind for me is: if martials are given a way to interrupt casting- in whatever way- would casters then have a way to interrupt a martial's attack sequence?
They do. There are a ton of crowd control spells out there.
Bring back core ways to stop a spell form being cast
I would consider the following (as a core option, not tied to any class):
If you take the Ready action to attack someone when they start casting a spell, and the readied attack hits, the spellcasting is interrupted and the spellcasting action is wasted. This would not consume the caster's spell slot, materials, or other resources.
And maybe put the AoO back into Mageslayer, and make Counterspell a little more powerful but harder to trigger.
The first question that comes to mind for me is: if martials are given a way to interrupt casting- in whatever way- would casters then have a way to interrupt a martial's attack sequence?
They do. There are a ton of crowd control spells out there.
I was thinking of Reaction interruptions. At least, that was the gist I gathered from MyDudeicus' original post. As in: a caster (presumably an enemy) begins casting a spell as their action, and the martial PC uses their reaction to interrupt (and thus negate) the casting of the spell. Conversely, a martial enemy (or an enemy using physical attacks) begins their turn using their action to attack or multi-attack, and a PC caster uses their reaction to interrupt (and thus negate) the intended attack sequence.
I don't think it's a good idea, even if it was severely limited in scope or frequency. I think it's an interesting idea, but maybe for a different kind of game. Or maybe if D&D fundamentally changed the core mechanics of 5e (which would then make it 6e).
Bring back core ways to stop a spell form being cast
I would consider the following (as a core option, not tied to any class):
If you take the Ready action to attack someone when they start casting a spell, and the readied attack hits, the spellcasting is interrupted and the spellcasting action is wasted. This would not consume the caster's spell slot, materials, or other resources.
And maybe put the AoO back into Mageslayer, and make Counterspell a little more powerful but harder to trigger.
This could possibly work. If a melee or ranged PC readied an action as you describe, then I'd allow it as a DM- but I'd give the caster a concentration check Saving Throw to overcome the interruption. As I understand the RAW now, the readied attack, if it hits, has no other affect than to do damage (and possibly any other effects from class features or magic weapon features.) So, a change like this would be a huge boon to martials and a detriment to casters, which could help bridge the power gap at later levels. Given the severely limited pool of spell slots at lower levels, I think it might sway the pendulum to the other side and give martials an unfair advantage at lower levels. So, perhaps it should not be an option until tier 3 higher level play?
Bring back core ways to stop a spell form being cast
I would consider the following (as a core option, not tied to any class):
If you take the Ready action to attack someone when they start casting a spell, and the readied attack hits, the spellcasting is interrupted and the spellcasting action is wasted. This would not consume the caster's spell slot, materials, or other resources.
And maybe put the AoO back into Mageslayer, and make Counterspell a little more powerful but harder to trigger.
This could possibly work. If a melee or ranged PC readied an action as you describe, then I'd allow it as a DM- but I'd give the caster a concentration check Saving Throw to overcome the interruption. As I understand the RAW now, the readied attack, if it hits, has no other affect than to do damage (and possibly any other effects from class features or magic weapon features.) So, a change like this would be a huge boon to martials and a detriment to casters, which could help bridge the power gap at later levels. Given the severely limited pool of spell slots at lower levels, I think it might sway the pendulum to the other side and give martials an unfair advantage at lower levels. So, perhaps it should not be an option until tier 3 higher level play?
I explicitly said it would not waste the spell slot, only the action.
Bring back core ways to stop a spell form being cast
I would consider the following (as a core option, not tied to any class):
If you take the Ready action to attack someone when they start casting a spell, and the readied attack hits, the spellcasting is interrupted and the spellcasting action is wasted. This would not consume the caster's spell slot, materials, or other resources.
And maybe put the AoO back into Mageslayer, and make Counterspell a little more powerful but harder to trigger.
I don't think it should be so reliable. It might make sense to do something like the following:
Specify that a reaction attack can interrupt spellcasting by forcing a concentration saving throw.
Add to the grappled condition "If a grappled creature attempts to cast a spell it must first succeed on a concentrating saving throw or the attempt fails (no resources are spent but the action is lost)".
This gives some decent options while adding extra utility to grappling which is under utilised.
Update: Should have specified, but in both of these cases they shouldn't apply to spells with an attack roll; melee spell attacks should be about as viable as regular melee attacks in close proximity, and ranged spell attacks already get disadvantage up close.
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The problem with adding concentration saving throws to all of this is that it even further incentivizes buffing your concentration saves. It would become impossible to play a spellcaster without Warcaster and Resilient:Con - at which point now the rules might as well not exist because the caster is going to succeed the save. You also need a way to set the DC for that save.
Grappling in particular requiring concentration saves would mean than PC casters are extremely vulnerable to becoming completely useless since there are a huge number of monsters that auto-grapple on a hit, and in most cases enemies will outnumber PCs -> just imaging a zombie horde that decides to grapple rather than attack and now your player character is grappled by 3 different zombies and must make 3 concentration saves in order to cast Misty Step to escape.
Honestly Counterspell should be removed from the game, and none of these proposals should be used because it makes combat incredibly boring. I've DMed combats with 3 members of the party having Counterspell and it's just completely cripples the enemy casters so then most of the combat is just nothing happening.
The problem with adding concentration saving throws to all of this is that it even further incentivizes buffing your concentration saves. It would become impossible to play a spellcaster without Warcaster and Resilient:Con - at which point now the rules might as well not exist because the caster is going to succeed the save. You also need a way to set the DC for that save.
Even with Warcaster and/or Resilient (Constitution) succeeding on a concentration saving throw isn't guaranteed.
I should have probably said that it might make sense to limit these changes to spells that don't have an attack roll though; melee attack spells should function much like any other melee attack does, and ranged attack spells already have disadvantage for having an adjacent enemy.
Initially I thought it could just give targets advantage on saving throws your spell causes, but there are enough spells in the game that don't require immediate saving throws, or don't require any at all (such as your example of misty step).
Grappling in particular requiring concentration saves would mean than PC casters are extremely vulnerable to becoming completely useless since there are a huge number of monsters that auto-grapple on a hit, and in most cases enemies will outnumber PCs -> just imaging a zombie horde that decides to grapple rather than attack and now your player character is grappled by 3 different zombies and must make 3 concentration saves in order to cast Misty Step to escape.
That sounds perfect; finally a zombie horde might actually be something other than a nuisance to a spellcaster, and there'd be much more incentive to actually escape some of the grapple(s) first either on your own, or with the help of your party. Now when a caster gets mobbed by zombies the party has to actually do something rather than just ignore it because the caster doesn't care either.
Casters having a trivial answer to every problem is one of the reasons they're so damned powerful in 5e.
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Grappling in particular requiring concentration saves would mean than PC casters are extremely vulnerable to becoming completely useless
Perhaps, to avoid complete paralysis of a caster, it would be added in the side effects of "Counterspell": That by denying them that spell, if it is of a level greater than the spell slot used in "Counterspell", not only does it not consume their spell slot, but as a reaction the caster can use a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. (And using a higher level spell slot affects this and increases the save DC by +1 for each level above normal.)
Grappling in particular requiring concentration saves would mean than PC casters are extremely vulnerable to becoming completely useless since there are a huge number of monsters that auto-grapple on a hit, and in most cases enemies will outnumber PCs -> just imaging a zombie horde that decides to grapple rather than attack and now your player character is grappled by 3 different zombies and must make 3 concentration saves in order to cast Misty Step to escape.
That sounds perfect; finally a zombie horde might actually be something other than a nuisance to a spellcaster, and there'd be much more incentive to actually escape some of the grapple(s) first either on your own, or with the help of your party. Now when a caster gets mobbed by zombies the party has to actually do something rather than just ignore it because the caster doesn't care either.
Casters having a trivial answer to every problem is one of the reasons they're so damned powerful in 5e.
Except that it doesn't just stop them escaping, it prevents them from doing anything at all. You can only use an action to try to escape 1 grapple at a time so that means if you are grappled by 3 zombies there is literally nothing your character can do, if they are a caster - 3 zombies should not be able to make a 20th level spell caster incapable of doing anything at all. And your allies spending actions to attempt to break a grapple is pretty pointless since the zombie can just reinitiate it on its next turn leading to an endless stalemate which again is really boring to play through - unless it is something like a crocodile which auto-grapples on a hit so it becomes: attack caster, caster can't act, martial breaks caster free, attack caster, ... repeat until the caster is dead.
The solution to the martial-caster divide is easy : just nerf spellcasting! Teleportation magic (including misty step) shouldn't be available until tier 2 (i.e. 3rd level spell or above), every battlefield control spell should have a way break free on or at the end of your turn, and maximum number of spellslots of each level should be reduced by 1 (including 6th level spells and higher). Doing nothing at all sucks, doing something but that thing being weaker than "I instantly solve the problem" is the level we want to achieve.
Adding additional mechanics is just an invitation for optimizers to find loopholes or exploit them. Remember, "grappled" isn't a condition exclusive to martials, there are a ton of spells that grapple as well so even the "if the caster is grappled they must make concentration save..." actually ends up favouring casters rather than martials - because martials have to some how get to the caster in order to grapple them and have to give up a hand (so no two-handed weapons, two-weapon fighting, or using a shield), whereas a caster can just conjure a creature next to the enemy caster and have that conjured creature grapple them (or hit them with Entangle, Earthen Grasp, Bigby's Hand, Web, Wrath of Nature, Black Tentacles, Transmute Rock, or Telekinesis).
The first question that comes to mind for me is: if martials are given a way to interrupt casting- in whatever way- would casters then have a way to interrupt a martial's attack sequence?
They do. There are a ton of crowd control spells out there.
Nearly all of which can be broken by breaking the caster's concentration and nearly all of which require a caster's full action and deal 0 damage (IMO the proliferation of spells that combine damage with battlefield control is one of the worst things to happen to the game).
Grappling in particular requiring concentration saves would mean than PC casters are extremely vulnerable to becoming completely useless
Perhaps, to avoid complete paralysis of a caster, it would be added in the side effects of "Counterspell": That by denying them that spell, if it is of a level greater than the spell slot used in "Counterspell", not only does it not consume their spell slot, but as a reaction the caster can use a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. (And using a higher level spell slot affects this and increases the save DC by +1 for each level above normal.)
No, just get rid of Counterspell. It's very simple, problem: Counterspell prevents casters from doing anything which is unfun, solution: get rid of Counterspell. Everything else is unnecessary complexity to patch a spell that is just inherently not fun gameplay. Or since we aren't allowed to actually get rid of anything, give it the "Conjure" treatment and just rewrite it entirely so it doesn't actually do what it says it does anymore. Make it like Dispel Magic but you target the caster and force them to make a concentration save for a spell they are concentrating on against your spell DC, maybe it up casts to target multiple creatures...
The first question that comes to mind for me is: if martials are given a way to interrupt casting- in whatever way- would casters then have a way to interrupt a martial's attack sequence?
They do. There are a ton of crowd control spells out there.
I was thinking of Reaction interruptions. At least, that was the gist I gathered from MyDudeicus' original post. As in: a caster (presumably an enemy) begins casting a spell as their action, and the martial PC uses their reaction to interrupt (and thus negate) the casting of the spell. Conversely, a martial enemy (or an enemy using physical attacks) begins their turn using their action to attack or multi-attack, and a PC caster uses their reaction to interrupt (and thus negate) the intended attack sequence.
I don't think it's a good idea, even if it was severely limited in scope or frequency. I think it's an interesting idea, but maybe for a different kind of game. Or maybe if D&D fundamentally changed the core mechanics of 5e (which would then make it 6e).
That was half of it. Should there be a interrupt effect martials can trigger. And for I forget who posted its not about PVP its about adversaries with magic. I get Agileminds point about boredom when all your turns get countered but given how many actions martials lose to magical effects they can't deal with I have to wonder about their boredom levels.
The second point was after a magical spell or effect is going should a martial have ways to deal with it. Some of this might be handled by spell changes like if wall of force gets hit points. But if they encounter an illusion, crowd control effects on themselves or others etc should they have a viable method of tacking the magic. Telling a fighter to make a DC15+ investigate check is generally not viable. Sure if there is a visible caster they can attempt to break concentration but magical effects without casters exist as traps, obstacles etc and the answer always seems to be magic. When its a physical problem sure there is a physical solution but there is also a magical solution. I just think there should be more physical solutions to magical problems.
The first question that comes to mind for me is: if martials are given a way to interrupt casting- in whatever way- would casters then have a way to interrupt a martial's attack sequence?
They do. There are a ton of crowd control spells out there.
I was thinking of Reaction interruptions. At least, that was the gist I gathered from MyDudeicus' original post. As in: a caster (presumably an enemy) begins casting a spell as their action, and the martial PC uses their reaction to interrupt (and thus negate) the casting of the spell. Conversely, a martial enemy (or an enemy using physical attacks) begins their turn using their action to attack or multi-attack, and a PC caster uses their reaction to interrupt (and thus negate) the intended attack sequence.
I don't think it's a good idea, even if it was severely limited in scope or frequency. I think it's an interesting idea, but maybe for a different kind of game. Or maybe if D&D fundamentally changed the core mechanics of 5e (which would then make it 6e).
That was half of it. Should there be a interrupt effect martials can trigger. And for I forget who posted its not about PVP its about adversaries with magic. I get Agileminds point about boredom when all your turns get countered but given how many actions martials lose to magical effects they can't deal with I have to wonder about their boredom levels.
The solution is not to push that boredom onto other players, it is to get rid of those magical effects that take away turns (or greatly limit them) so that martials are not bored either.
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I saw a can anything beat a 20th level wizard thread on reddit, and people are bringing up simulacrum,(hopefully nerfed) contingency etc so the answer was no for martials. And it got me thinking, really the only thing that deals with magic is magic. Want to defeat a spell use magic, want to stop a spell from being cast use magic. You used to be able to at least interrupt a spell. Maybe you can do enough damage to break concentration but that is pretty much it. While I think some of this should be core to the classes, I wonder why the heck don't they at least have sub classes with abilities for this. Where is the battle masters dispelling strike for example.
Basically my question is
1. Do you think martial classes should have built into their classes ways to defeat magic and I don't mean shrugging off a spell on them but ways to deal with like walls of fire, breaking illusions(tactical mind can help here) that pesky contingency. Bring back core ways to stop a spell form being cast, maybe not at will or 100% so it happens every cast(that would make liches boring encounters) but a limited resource method, or middling chance of success etc.
2. If not the core class should at least one subclass per class have counter magic capabilities?
3. Should feats be what fills in this blank?
And if the answer is yes to at least one of these what do you think it should look like.
While I am fine bringing back spellcasting creates an attack of opportunity which can stop it from being cast, I'd also want a way for a martial to dispel magic. Some kind of spell breaking feature. It would probably manifest differently on each class and should be limited to some degree, but I am not sure how it would work. Like another feature of second wind is making that one ability carry a lot of water, and reduces the desire to use it for tactical mind etc.
The first question that comes to mind for me is: if martials are given a way to interrupt casting- in whatever way- would casters then have a way to interrupt a martial's attack sequence?
In older editions, there used to be a mechanic for the concept of how quick a character's action was. A dagger could attack faster than a maul, for example. And a cantrip with only a verbal component might cast faster than a 1st level spell with a verbal, somatic, & material cost. If I'm remembering correctly, these quickness scales affected turn order (quicker actions went first). But I don't recall whether a spell could be interrupted in its casting.
I think I might have played a video game at some point where spells could be interrupted. I have no idea what that game might've been, but I do remember trying to cast spells and getting frustrated when they were interrupted all the time.
There are some spells in 5th edition that require you to concentrate on them over time before their effects come to fruition. For example: Wall of Stone can become permanent if you concentrate on it for the ful 10 minute duration. And that could be interrupted. But that's only an option- the impermanent version of the wall goes up and can't be interrupted. Only subsequently could the caster's concentration be broken to dispell the wall.
It's an interesting idea. But I'd be wary about instituting mechanics that allow characters to negate the actions of other characters before they can even happen. Counterspell holds a unique place in 5e, and even it was recognized as needing to be reigned in for the 2024 revision.
20th level is broken, but by the point you get the wish spell, you're basically immortal, the Clone spell means you can have a back-up body anywhere and the only way to counter that is to literally trap the caster's soul in a container of some sort or feed it to a lich, and also the material requirements for the Clone spell are quiet... harsh (1 cubic inch of your own flesh), the wish spell allows you to cast any spell of 8th level or lower without material components and clone is 8th level. A level 17 Wizard, Sorcerer or a Genie Warlock get access to wish, you can never permanently kill them, unless you have access to destroy or else wise capturer their soul.
So even if you did win the battle, you'd lose the war. Basically meaning it's meaningless to compare Wizard or Sorcerer to any other class at level 17, since Wish is such a powerful spell and allows you to basically leave clones of yourself all over the world. The only real way you're stopping them is with the soul cage spell.
But to answer the questions.
1. Martials have a way to stop most, grapple the caster and cover or stuff something into their mouth, only a subtle spell sorcerer might be able to counter that. Overall most BBEGs tend to be magical or have magic like abilities, and if magic became too easy to deal with, it'd have a knock on effect outside of inter-class balance. I do think martials should (with the exception of Paladin) should have more ways to deal with saving throws against spells tho, even if these were limited methods like a once a day, "NOPE!" to failing a save. In actual combat, casters are very limited to by spell slots.
2. I think the idea of a Paladin or Fighter that is specifically anti-mage has some potential but actually basing it entirely off of that premise won't work since most combats tend to involve little magic on the other side of combat from the players. Such a class would still predominately need to be dealing with non-magical creatures.
3. There is the mage slayer feat but it's underwhelming, it lost the reaction in the UA but got the method to "NOPE!" failed INT, WIS & CHA saving throws once per long rest. Overall, I believe the reaction should return as a once per long rest and it should be a concentration saving throw inflicted on to the caster against the ability modifier made to deal the attack. The saving throw would be made with disadvantage as per the Concentration Breaker part of the feat. Alternatively there should be another feat to do that.
D&D isn't a PvP game and breaks down under those assumptions. High level caster monsters tend to also be high level martials - consider the melee capabilities of a Great Wyrm dragon, an archdevil like Asmodeus, an archlich like Vecna etc. A vanilla level 20 fighter vs a vanilla level 20 wizard is not really the assumption of D&D's challenge system - rather the assumption is that any 4 classes of level X can overcome a challenge of CR X if they have level-appropriate gear.
No, not really. I'd much rather than magic just get nerfed than adding a ton of reactions / counters because it is no fun for your character's spell to get countered. Spending your single 4th level slot in a day only to have it be counterspelled or dispelled is no fun. Already tons of players build for unbreakable concentration saves because losing a concentration spell is no fun. But otherwise, there shouldn't be any spells that incapacitate a creature for more than 1 round without granting additional saves or checks to escape it. Also all saving throws should really scale with player level rather than the weirdness we have now where each class gets 2 saves that scale with level and 4 that don't. Most tier 3-4 enemies have proficiency in 4 or more saves, it's weird that PCs are so limited.
Nope, there is already the Mage Slayer feat for counter-magic play. It should get the AoO back. But otherwise I'd leave it to magic items for 1/day dispel magic on a martial. But really, the play-counter-play for martials vs casters is that the martial just kills the squishy caster before they can use their fancy magic.
They do. There are a ton of crowd control spells out there.
I would consider the following (as a core option, not tied to any class):
If you take the Ready action to attack someone when they start casting a spell, and the readied attack hits, the spellcasting is interrupted and the spellcasting action is wasted. This would not consume the caster's spell slot, materials, or other resources.
And maybe put the AoO back into Mageslayer, and make Counterspell a little more powerful but harder to trigger.
I was thinking of Reaction interruptions. At least, that was the gist I gathered from MyDudeicus' original post. As in: a caster (presumably an enemy) begins casting a spell as their action, and the martial PC uses their reaction to interrupt (and thus negate) the casting of the spell. Conversely, a martial enemy (or an enemy using physical attacks) begins their turn using their action to attack or multi-attack, and a PC caster uses their reaction to interrupt (and thus negate) the intended attack sequence.
I don't think it's a good idea, even if it was severely limited in scope or frequency. I think it's an interesting idea, but maybe for a different kind of game. Or maybe if D&D fundamentally changed the core mechanics of 5e (which would then make it 6e).
This could possibly work. If a melee or ranged PC readied an action as you describe, then I'd allow it as a DM- but I'd give the caster a concentration check Saving Throw to overcome the interruption. As I understand the RAW now, the readied attack, if it hits, has no other affect than to do damage (and possibly any other effects from class features or magic weapon features.) So, a change like this would be a huge boon to martials and a detriment to casters, which could help bridge the power gap at later levels. Given the severely limited pool of spell slots at lower levels, I think it might sway the pendulum to the other side and give martials an unfair advantage at lower levels. So, perhaps it should not be an option until tier 3 higher level play?
I explicitly said it would not waste the spell slot, only the action.
Sorry, my mistake 🤦♂️
I don't think it should be so reliable. It might make sense to do something like the following:
This gives some decent options while adding extra utility to grappling which is under utilised.
Update: Should have specified, but in both of these cases they shouldn't apply to spells with an attack roll; melee spell attacks should be about as viable as regular melee attacks in close proximity, and ranged spell attacks already get disadvantage up close.
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The problem with adding concentration saving throws to all of this is that it even further incentivizes buffing your concentration saves. It would become impossible to play a spellcaster without Warcaster and Resilient:Con - at which point now the rules might as well not exist because the caster is going to succeed the save. You also need a way to set the DC for that save.
Grappling in particular requiring concentration saves would mean than PC casters are extremely vulnerable to becoming completely useless since there are a huge number of monsters that auto-grapple on a hit, and in most cases enemies will outnumber PCs -> just imaging a zombie horde that decides to grapple rather than attack and now your player character is grappled by 3 different zombies and must make 3 concentration saves in order to cast Misty Step to escape.
Honestly Counterspell should be removed from the game, and none of these proposals should be used because it makes combat incredibly boring. I've DMed combats with 3 members of the party having Counterspell and it's just completely cripples the enemy casters so then most of the combat is just nothing happening.
Even with Warcaster and/or Resilient (Constitution) succeeding on a concentration saving throw isn't guaranteed.
I should have probably said that it might make sense to limit these changes to spells that don't have an attack roll though; melee attack spells should function much like any other melee attack does, and ranged attack spells already have disadvantage for having an adjacent enemy.
Initially I thought it could just give targets advantage on saving throws your spell causes, but there are enough spells in the game that don't require immediate saving throws, or don't require any at all (such as your example of misty step).
That sounds perfect; finally a zombie horde might actually be something other than a nuisance to a spellcaster, and there'd be much more incentive to actually escape some of the grapple(s) first either on your own, or with the help of your party. Now when a caster gets mobbed by zombies the party has to actually do something rather than just ignore it because the caster doesn't care either.
Casters having a trivial answer to every problem is one of the reasons they're so damned powerful in 5e.
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Perhaps, to avoid complete paralysis of a caster, it would be added in the side effects of "Counterspell": That by denying them that spell, if it is of a level greater than the spell slot used in "Counterspell", not only does it not consume their spell slot, but as a reaction the caster can use a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action. (And using a higher level spell slot affects this and increases the save DC by +1 for each level above normal.)
Except that it doesn't just stop them escaping, it prevents them from doing anything at all. You can only use an action to try to escape 1 grapple at a time so that means if you are grappled by 3 zombies there is literally nothing your character can do, if they are a caster - 3 zombies should not be able to make a 20th level spell caster incapable of doing anything at all. And your allies spending actions to attempt to break a grapple is pretty pointless since the zombie can just reinitiate it on its next turn leading to an endless stalemate which again is really boring to play through - unless it is something like a crocodile which auto-grapples on a hit so it becomes: attack caster, caster can't act, martial breaks caster free, attack caster, ... repeat until the caster is dead.
The solution to the martial-caster divide is easy : just nerf spellcasting! Teleportation magic (including misty step) shouldn't be available until tier 2 (i.e. 3rd level spell or above), every battlefield control spell should have a way break free on or at the end of your turn, and maximum number of spellslots of each level should be reduced by 1 (including 6th level spells and higher). Doing nothing at all sucks, doing something but that thing being weaker than "I instantly solve the problem" is the level we want to achieve.
Adding additional mechanics is just an invitation for optimizers to find loopholes or exploit them. Remember, "grappled" isn't a condition exclusive to martials, there are a ton of spells that grapple as well so even the "if the caster is grappled they must make concentration save..." actually ends up favouring casters rather than martials - because martials have to some how get to the caster in order to grapple them and have to give up a hand (so no two-handed weapons, two-weapon fighting, or using a shield), whereas a caster can just conjure a creature next to the enemy caster and have that conjured creature grapple them (or hit them with Entangle, Earthen Grasp, Bigby's Hand, Web, Wrath of Nature, Black Tentacles, Transmute Rock, or Telekinesis).
Nearly all of which can be broken by breaking the caster's concentration and nearly all of which require a caster's full action and deal 0 damage (IMO the proliferation of spells that combine damage with battlefield control is one of the worst things to happen to the game).
No, just get rid of Counterspell. It's very simple, problem: Counterspell prevents casters from doing anything which is unfun, solution: get rid of Counterspell. Everything else is unnecessary complexity to patch a spell that is just inherently not fun gameplay. Or since we aren't allowed to actually get rid of anything, give it the "Conjure" treatment and just rewrite it entirely so it doesn't actually do what it says it does anymore. Make it like Dispel Magic but you target the caster and force them to make a concentration save for a spell they are concentrating on against your spell DC, maybe it up casts to target multiple creatures...
That was half of it. Should there be a interrupt effect martials can trigger. And for I forget who posted its not about PVP its about adversaries with magic. I get Agileminds point about boredom when all your turns get countered but given how many actions martials lose to magical effects they can't deal with I have to wonder about their boredom levels.
The second point was after a magical spell or effect is going should a martial have ways to deal with it. Some of this might be handled by spell changes like if wall of force gets hit points. But if they encounter an illusion, crowd control effects on themselves or others etc should they have a viable method of tacking the magic. Telling a fighter to make a DC15+ investigate check is generally not viable. Sure if there is a visible caster they can attempt to break concentration but magical effects without casters exist as traps, obstacles etc and the answer always seems to be magic. When its a physical problem sure there is a physical solution but there is also a magical solution. I just think there should be more physical solutions to magical problems.
The solution is not to push that boredom onto other players, it is to get rid of those magical effects that take away turns (or greatly limit them) so that martials are not bored either.