Before I begin... that survey is going to take forever to fill out. The prudent thing for WotC to do is to break it up into two different surveys, one for Mystics and Orders, and one for Disciplines. I'd rather take two 15ish minute surveys than one 30+ minute survey.
That said... this is what I'm looking at when it's time to fill them out:
1: The Magic / Psionics interaction needs to be nailed down.
There's nothing wrong with psionics being a flavor of magic:
Magic Type
Classes that use it
Divine
Cleric, Paladin
Nature
Druid, Ranger
Arcane
Bard, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard
Psychic
Mystic
As described in SCAG, the average dweller in the Realms would lump 'Mindmages' in with Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards as practicioners of "the Art" and not worry about the details overmuch.
But we run into a problem: Responding to it. Right now, Counterspell doesn't work on psionics, but Antimagic field does. Dispel magic targets one "creature, object, or magical effect", so it feels like it should work on psionics, since psionics is a magical effect. But also says it effects spells on the target, so it really doesn't. This is reinforced by the Sage Advice article (March 2016 if you want to look it up) which refers us to Lesser restoration, Greater restoration, and Remove curse for ending non-spell magical effects. However, these three spells are irrelevant to most psionic effects. This leaves us with three feasible options.
The first is to fully integrate psionics into the current magical system. Talents are treated as Cantrips, and Disciplines are treated as spells of 1st to 5th level, depending on how many points (2, 3, 5, 6, & 7 respectively) are spent to activate the power. By doing so Arcane, Divine, and Nature spellcasters (and their players!) can intuitively respond to psionic usage when encountered, and it adds an in-universe reason why Mystics are a rare breed, since it would allow other spellcasters to counter / dispel them with their 7 level slots, and still have 8 and 9th level slots available, an advantage that 15th+ level Mystics would lack. It's the easiest solution, but it puts a burden on Mystic play.
The second is to reinforce the concept "Psionic disciplines are magical and function similarly to spells." with examples. A Mystic is using Mastery of Air: Wind Form? Treat it as Fly, and now you know how to counter or dispel it. He's using "Mastery of Air: Animate Air? Treat it as *Conjure Air Elemental. In a nutshell, if a power in a Discipline does the same thing as a spell, treat it as a spell. Otherwise, it's a non-spell magical effect. This may be the "holistic" solution, but the amount of verbiage it would take to list all the examples is pretty daunting, so either the system would have to be rebuilt to show that when a Mystic uses Mastery of Air: Wind Stream, he is creating a non-spell magical effect, but when he uses Wind Form, he's casting Fly, or else it should be stated as "Psionic disciplines are magical and function similarly to spells, and are treated *as** spells if they duplicate a spell's results, at the DM's discretion." and just left for each campaign to figure out.
The third is a little bit of added verbiage specifying which spells (like Antimagic Field) work against psionics, and which (like Counterspell & Dispel Magic) don't, and why. This appears to line up with how WotC intends psionics to work in 5th edition, and the addition of a paragraph or two elaborating on it would solve a lot of arguments. However, it makes Mystics dangerous, as their flavor of magic becomes something other magic-users can't really interact with. This, too, may be what WotC intends, and explains their relative rarity, as it's easy to understand why a guild of wizards or a dominant religion would take action to discourage psionic learning, and to stamp out Orders in their area when they are discovered.
2: Psionic usage is completely covert.
"Using a discipline requires no spoken words, gestures, or materials. The power of psionics comes from the mind." If the intent is to make Sorcerers jealous, WotC certainly succeeded. This, too, may be what WotC intends, and adds sorcerers to the aforementioned groups that would be rather uncomfortable with a group of Mystics setting up in their back yard, and could increase tensions between Mystics and pretty much everyone else. But using psionics shouldn't be completely invisible. Contrast the Fire Bolt evocation cantrip to the Energy Beam talent. The former takes both verbal and somatic components, and a mote of fire is hurled through the air. It's pretty obvious that the bearded guy in robes who just chanted and moved his hands as he threw flame at you is trying to hurt you. The latter? Dude's just standing there. Could be anyone. No visible cue who the Mystic is, and no visible cue that an attack even happened. You just get toasted, like an invisible microwave laser gun that doesn't even need to be pointed at you. That's a really good way to get Mystics declared persona non grata by anyone who knows anything about their capabilities, which ties into the in-universe reasons why any organized group may decide that persecuting Orders is a really, really good idea. Again, if that's the intent, all well and good, but it can directly lead to a campaign mirroring Marvel comics, where practitioners of "the Art" could be honored as heroes or feared as villians, but Mystics are treated like mutants, with fear, distrust, and loathing. Much like Tieflings, but redoubled.
Jumping back to 3.5th edition rules, psionics could have a "Display" that indicated usage. Some made noise, some made momentary ectoplasmic slime, some rang like a bell in the minds of nearby creatures, some made smells (Seriously. Feel free to look it up.), and some made visuals. And some made more than one of these, and users had to make a check to suppress them if they wanted to use them covertly. I'm not advocating a return to those systems, but what we have now is covert to the point where it's understandable if other players at the table would say it's unfair. And they'd have a decent justification for saying so.
If that's what WotC wants, then adding a sentence to the above quote to reinforce it, such as: "The power of psionics comes from the mind. This can cause Mystics to be distrusted, at best, by anyone aware of their capabilities." or the like. Otherwise, using psionics without words, gestures, or materials is fine, but there needs to be some indication of their manifestation.
3: Psychic Assault outshines Illithids.
Psionic Blast, Psychic Blast, & Psychic Crush are problematic when compared with Mind Flayers. Let's look at the Illithid Mind Blast:
The mind flayer magically emits psychic energy in a 60-foot cone. Each creature in that area must succeed on a DC 15 Intelligence saving throw or take 22 (4d8 + 4) psychic damage and be stunned for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success
So it gets to use it once, and then has a 33% chance of getting to use it on subsequent turns. Whereas a Mystic can single-target using Psionic Blast without a save, or gets a Psychic Blast that does either 36 (8d8) or 45 (10d8) damage? And where saving against the Illithid will prevent all damage, whereas saving against the Mystic only prevents half of it? The Illithid's Mind Blast should be a thing that strikes fear into the heart of any adventurer. Compared to what a Mystic can do... is the Mystic's ability to do more damage really balanced by the lack of a stun, since a Mystic can invoke Psychic Blast four times in four turns, whereas the odds are that an Illithid's only able to invoke a Mind Blast twice in the same amount of time?
And then there's Psychic Crush, which as written would strike fear into the heart of any Illithid, because it's everything Mind Blast is, but better in almost every way.
Yes, adventurers are the heroes of our stories. But should the Psychic Assault Discipline outshine the Illithid like this? Or are we going to see a variant, like the Mind Flayer Arcanist, that gives us a Mind Flayer who is a 10th level Mystic in the same light that Arcanists are 10th level spellcasters?
4: Nitpicks.
Avatars have 8 Disciplines. The Awakened have 9. Immortals have 10. Nomads have 5. Wu Jen have 8. That's a really lopsided curve. The Immortals could stand to lose two of their Disciplines. The Nomads could stand to gain two. That gives us a spread of 8 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 8. Which isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now.
Diminution and Giant Growth aren't exactly concepts that come to mind when you think of a mind-based magic. Those two extra Disciplines that Immortals have? Here you go. You can simply remove both Disciplines completely, and the Immortals would still be an extremely potent Order. Sorry, Pym fans.
Along the same line, Celerity seems to be just as easy a fit for Nomads as it is Immortals. If not better.
What should the Nomads get? Powers relating to travel. Some sort of "dimensional anchor" effect, perhaps, or a individual version of Plane Shift, or revisiting 3.5th edition's Baleful Teleport, which could cause psychic damage to the target. Or powers relating to the other planes, such as conjuration or banishment.
And while we're on the subject, if ANY class should get access to some version of Astral Projection, shouldn't it be the Mystic?
Mastery of Light and Darkness: Shadow Beasts is a problem. The user is summoning two chaotic evil undead creatures that obey your commands. But if you actually tell your shadows to use their Strength Drain in combat, you run the risk of it killing their opponent, and "if a non-evil humanoid dies from this attack, a new shadow rises from the corpse 1d4 hours later" So now the Mystic is permanently creating new chaotic evil undead creatures that he has no control over whatsoever. Summoning shadowy creatures is cool. We've seen this in the Shadow Sorcerer from the Light, Dark, Underdark! UA release. Summoning a pair of actual shadows? Problematic, at best. At worse, it lets an evil Mystic show up in a town, summon a pair of shadows, and tell them to start killing people. Sure, they'll go away after an hour. And a short time after that, all the good and neutral townsfolk they killed will spawn shadows. Who will kill more people. And thus spawn more shadows. With a single invocation of the power, our Mystic has now started an undead plague. That's a really, really good way to get Orders put on an "Execute on sight" list by any power group, whether religious or secular, who think that all psionic users can (and will) use their powers like that.
The current rules for Mystics and Psionics are obviously a labor of love by the WotC team. They should be commended for all the hard work and dedication they've obviously poured into the project. But, like all UA material, they can be further refined. Addressing these issues would go a long, long way in doing so, while still keeping the system fun for everyone in the game.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
âŹIf you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
The magic/psionic interaction is nailed down, all you have to do is realize that psionics is not being treated as magic, at all. And why do you think anti-magic field would have any effect on psionics under these rules? Are you assuming psionic effects are magic effects? Treating psionics as just another magic is not what they are going for and it is good on them for it, psionics never quite feels right when it is just another magic, and if it were I would ignore it as a waste of my time. From my point of view, this pretty much rules out all three of your possible solutions. We clearly have different ideas of what psionics should be in game, but making it just anther magic is boring.
Yes, psionics is completely covert, that is working as intended. You have a person sitting their not casting magic or fighting, in the middle of battle, and just standing their looking pretty. Would you not see it as out of place in the very least? Or perhaps the high int/wis people noticing the same thing, a person who seems to be concentrating on something rather than fighting? Put that in combination with strange things happening with no obvious source are also happening, perhaps your allies break and run when they have a big advantage or any number of other things? It might throw you for a loop initially, but you would figure it out sooner or later that that guy is doing something. At the very least they should get the idea that something is out of place with that guy, even if they don't know what it is offhand.
I would be for them reworking the Illithids to be actual psionicists. That would fit better in a game with psionicist player characters, and if I recall that is how they were originally introduced to the D&D world anyway. The magic given to them as "psionics" was more of a stopgap in my mind until they released actual psionics.
I don't see the difference in the number of disciplines being an issue either. If they were limited to their own class disciplines then sure, but they aren't, and their are several disciplines that work well for other orders than who's list they happen to be on. They are also not all created equal, and they may add more when/if this is ever released.
Also remember, this is play test material, it will likely get some changes before final release anyway. I agree that they did a great job with it. I think the biggest difference between us is how we conceptualize what psionics actually is.
I always looked at the interaction of psionics and antimagic spells like this. Spells like antimagic field generate a kind of static that interferes with energy formation in a pattern, a dispel magic causes the energy that's already there to unravel.
There's eight pages of collected Q&A. You'll find Jeremy Crawford stating that "Psionic effects are magical, as stated in the mystic document." That's done twice, actually.
Page 3: Psionics is a special form of magic use, distinct from spellcasting.
Page 9: Psionic disciplines are magical and function similarly to spells.
You'll also see him confirming that, since psionics are a form of magic, Antimagic Field works, but Counterspell doesn't, since they're not spells. He posted that after the original feedback was written, but it could still use a bit of added verbiage to firm it up.
"Yes, psionics is completely covert, that is working as intended."
It's also a change from 3rd and 4th edition, in which psionics were not covert. Thus the question. It's a pretty significant design change if that's what is intended.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
âŹIf you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
Admittedly I haven't read the sage advice's recently, but if he did say that, that is a disappointment imho.
I much prefer the description in the Psionics Handboook from years ago.
The answer is no, the game probably does not need a third kind of magic. But the question is misinformed because psionics is not magic.
It also talks about psionics being the exact opposite of magic...
I can't say I know anything about the 4e rules, literally less than nothing. I have never touched that edition. 3e I bought some books early on, was disappointed in many aspects of the rules, including the psionics rules, and moved on to stuff other than D&D. It was 5e that brought me back.
From this you can see where my inspiration when it comes to psionics comes from. It turns out every other game I played that includes psionics treats psionics as something other than magic.
So you are on your Spelljammer helm? That was a fun setting.
I agree, psionics shouldn't be treated as magic, but rather as something else entirely.
Psionics are not magic because the process of using them is completely different. They are based on a persons innate ability. Whereas magic can be learned and improved through training. Psionics are almost impossible to learn if you don't have the talent. Therefore they are something else.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My name, is Balthazaar Cage! Savior of Ravenscrest, defender of the light, reincarnated chosen one of the gods, rightful ruler of all that can be seen and half of that which is unseen. If that's to long you may simply refer to me as "Sorcerer Supreme."
While I grok the idea of psionics being an equal-yet-distinct power system, it looks like 5th edition is going for "Another flavor of magic" instead, so I'm not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good on this one.
Smalljammers were the 'baby' Spelljammers. They were awesome incarnate. The crew had one if you go way, way back to the old Spelljammer comic book. Good times.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
âŹIf you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
The casting of the spells should probably be covert but depending on what the spell is it should be very overt. Something like a blast of psychic energy should be plain as day. And there is no way a Mind Blade is invisible (how am I going to have my void colored blades swirling with stars if they're invisible?).
As for counterspell, I don't see why it shouldn't be effective (other than RAW). Mystics are plenty powerful already without having spellslots to manage and can repetitively cast their strongest spells till they run out of Psi, no reason to also make it immune to counterspell.
I am thinking seriously about this, and Psionics are more like a Speciality archetipical power to me. I mean, you take the fighter for example, right now with all his Ability Score Improvemanet, the Idea of a super humanoid, it seems neat to me (to become the 3.5 and 4th edition psionic classes). One wizard winning Psionic power thnaks to his leand magic (to be the psionic), or the paladin remade for his deity and oath to be more than the mortal than he was (the ardent equivalent from 4E). I am going to try my own psionic class, but more often my own psionic specialities.
Points 1 and 2 of the OP are fairly on point. While I like the idea of psionics being slightly different than magic it makes sense to iron out the interactions. And psionics should definitely have some sort of 'display'. Invisible powers open up a whole can of worms. especially when they get as powerful of some upper level Mystic stuff.
Point 3 is kinda irrelevant. The mindflayer mind blast is a at will ability. The equivalent of a cantrip. I don't see any Mystic talents as a apples to apples comparison.
Regarding point 2, I fully intend to keep psionics covert in my homebrew, as it works perfectly with established lore.
I use the psionic race known as Elan as a sort of psychic illuminati organization, using their powers to manipulate the affairs of the other races. OP? Perhaps, but useful for an evil DM.
In my Elanon campaign, we have an Immortal Mystic and the party is now at 8th level. One of the players DMs our CoS group and has said multiple times that he would NEVER allow a mystic in his campaign. My take was I have not like psionics in any of the previous versions, but I had a player that really wanted to play, so I allowed with the warning that we would treat it as playtest and make adjustments if needed.
After 8 levels, we have not had any problems yet. In fact, there has not been a single battle where the Mystic dominated the party. He has done a lot of cool things, but nothing more OP than another party member.
In fact, we built part of the campaign around the mystic. The player declared that he wanted to find a "Book of the Immortals". The last Mystics died out in a catastrophe over 3000 years ago, and he is not finding that he is in race against Mindflayers and Liches for a full copy of the book. He has found a few pages, but he has also encountered a secret society that will stop at nothing to make sure the knowledge never returns to the world. So, it has become a major plot thread in the campaign.
I figure we will be around 12-13th level when XGE comes out in November, and we will have to sit down and see if we make any changes, but it seems to be working fine. I am glad I let a player talk me into something I would never had put in otherwise.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep đ)
Regarding the Psionic Restoration Discipline, that needs some nerfing. One of the powers replicates Revivify, which in many campaigns is limited by requiring material components. Another of the powers (arguably) replicates Greater Restoration, which has the same restrictions. I would require material components for those two powers to keep everything even. A party getting overpowered is easily handled. A single player getting overpowered, not so much.
I'm considering playing a Mystic for an upcoming campaign, and I've told the DM in advance that I'd be happy to help him apply changes where he sees fit.
I'm truly saddened to see this fun and unique class abandoned and put into the subclasses of other classes. They don't entirely fill my need to be a psionic warrior
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Before I begin... that survey is going to take forever to fill out. The prudent thing for WotC to do is to break it up into two different surveys, one for Mystics and Orders, and one for Disciplines. I'd rather take two 15ish minute surveys than one 30+ minute survey.
That said... this is what I'm looking at when it's time to fill them out:
1: The Magic / Psionics interaction needs to be nailed down.
There's nothing wrong with psionics being a flavor of magic:
As described in SCAG, the average dweller in the Realms would lump 'Mindmages' in with Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards as practicioners of "the Art" and not worry about the details overmuch.
But we run into a problem: Responding to it. Right now, Counterspell doesn't work on psionics, but Antimagic field does. Dispel magic targets one "creature, object, or magical effect", so it feels like it should work on psionics, since psionics is a magical effect. But also says it effects spells on the target, so it really doesn't. This is reinforced by the Sage Advice article (March 2016 if you want to look it up) which refers us to Lesser restoration, Greater restoration, and Remove curse for ending non-spell magical effects. However, these three spells are irrelevant to most psionic effects. This leaves us with three feasible options.
The first is to fully integrate psionics into the current magical system. Talents are treated as Cantrips, and Disciplines are treated as spells of 1st to 5th level, depending on how many points (2, 3, 5, 6, & 7 respectively) are spent to activate the power. By doing so Arcane, Divine, and Nature spellcasters (and their players!) can intuitively respond to psionic usage when encountered, and it adds an in-universe reason why Mystics are a rare breed, since it would allow other spellcasters to counter / dispel them with their 7 level slots, and still have 8 and 9th level slots available, an advantage that 15th+ level Mystics would lack. It's the easiest solution, but it puts a burden on Mystic play.
The second is to reinforce the concept "Psionic disciplines are magical and function similarly to spells." with examples. A Mystic is using Mastery of Air: Wind Form? Treat it as Fly, and now you know how to counter or dispel it. He's using "Mastery of Air: Animate Air? Treat it as *Conjure Air Elemental. In a nutshell, if a power in a Discipline does the same thing as a spell, treat it as a spell. Otherwise, it's a non-spell magical effect. This may be the "holistic" solution, but the amount of verbiage it would take to list all the examples is pretty daunting, so either the system would have to be rebuilt to show that when a Mystic uses Mastery of Air: Wind Stream, he is creating a non-spell magical effect, but when he uses Wind Form, he's casting Fly, or else it should be stated as "Psionic disciplines are magical and function similarly to spells, and are treated *as** spells if they duplicate a spell's results, at the DM's discretion." and just left for each campaign to figure out.
The third is a little bit of added verbiage specifying which spells (like Antimagic Field) work against psionics, and which (like Counterspell & Dispel Magic) don't, and why. This appears to line up with how WotC intends psionics to work in 5th edition, and the addition of a paragraph or two elaborating on it would solve a lot of arguments. However, it makes Mystics dangerous, as their flavor of magic becomes something other magic-users can't really interact with. This, too, may be what WotC intends, and explains their relative rarity, as it's easy to understand why a guild of wizards or a dominant religion would take action to discourage psionic learning, and to stamp out Orders in their area when they are discovered.
2: Psionic usage is completely covert.
"Using a discipline requires no spoken words, gestures, or materials. The power of psionics comes from the mind." If the intent is to make Sorcerers jealous, WotC certainly succeeded. This, too, may be what WotC intends, and adds sorcerers to the aforementioned groups that would be rather uncomfortable with a group of Mystics setting up in their back yard, and could increase tensions between Mystics and pretty much everyone else. But using psionics shouldn't be completely invisible. Contrast the Fire Bolt evocation cantrip to the Energy Beam talent. The former takes both verbal and somatic components, and a mote of fire is hurled through the air. It's pretty obvious that the bearded guy in robes who just chanted and moved his hands as he threw flame at you is trying to hurt you. The latter? Dude's just standing there. Could be anyone. No visible cue who the Mystic is, and no visible cue that an attack even happened. You just get toasted, like an invisible microwave laser gun that doesn't even need to be pointed at you. That's a really good way to get Mystics declared persona non grata by anyone who knows anything about their capabilities, which ties into the in-universe reasons why any organized group may decide that persecuting Orders is a really, really good idea. Again, if that's the intent, all well and good, but it can directly lead to a campaign mirroring Marvel comics, where practitioners of "the Art" could be honored as heroes or feared as villians, but Mystics are treated like mutants, with fear, distrust, and loathing. Much like Tieflings, but redoubled.
Jumping back to 3.5th edition rules, psionics could have a "Display" that indicated usage. Some made noise, some made momentary ectoplasmic slime, some rang like a bell in the minds of nearby creatures, some made smells (Seriously. Feel free to look it up.), and some made visuals. And some made more than one of these, and users had to make a check to suppress them if they wanted to use them covertly. I'm not advocating a return to those systems, but what we have now is covert to the point where it's understandable if other players at the table would say it's unfair. And they'd have a decent justification for saying so.
If that's what WotC wants, then adding a sentence to the above quote to reinforce it, such as: "The power of psionics comes from the mind. This can cause Mystics to be distrusted, at best, by anyone aware of their capabilities." or the like. Otherwise, using psionics without words, gestures, or materials is fine, but there needs to be some indication of their manifestation.
3: Psychic Assault outshines Illithids.
Psionic Blast, Psychic Blast, & Psychic Crush are problematic when compared with Mind Flayers. Let's look at the Illithid Mind Blast:
So it gets to use it once, and then has a 33% chance of getting to use it on subsequent turns. Whereas a Mystic can single-target using Psionic Blast without a save, or gets a Psychic Blast that does either 36 (8d8) or 45 (10d8) damage? And where saving against the Illithid will prevent all damage, whereas saving against the Mystic only prevents half of it? The Illithid's Mind Blast should be a thing that strikes fear into the heart of any adventurer. Compared to what a Mystic can do... is the Mystic's ability to do more damage really balanced by the lack of a stun, since a Mystic can invoke Psychic Blast four times in four turns, whereas the odds are that an Illithid's only able to invoke a Mind Blast twice in the same amount of time?
And then there's Psychic Crush, which as written would strike fear into the heart of any Illithid, because it's everything Mind Blast is, but better in almost every way.
Yes, adventurers are the heroes of our stories. But should the Psychic Assault Discipline outshine the Illithid like this? Or are we going to see a variant, like the Mind Flayer Arcanist, that gives us a Mind Flayer who is a 10th level Mystic in the same light that Arcanists are 10th level spellcasters?
4: Nitpicks.
Avatars have 8 Disciplines. The Awakened have 9. Immortals have 10. Nomads have 5. Wu Jen have 8. That's a really lopsided curve. The Immortals could stand to lose two of their Disciplines. The Nomads could stand to gain two. That gives us a spread of 8 / 9 / 8 / 7 / 8. Which isn't perfect, but it's better than what we have now.
Diminution and Giant Growth aren't exactly concepts that come to mind when you think of a mind-based magic. Those two extra Disciplines that Immortals have? Here you go. You can simply remove both Disciplines completely, and the Immortals would still be an extremely potent Order. Sorry, Pym fans.
Along the same line, Celerity seems to be just as easy a fit for Nomads as it is Immortals. If not better.
What should the Nomads get? Powers relating to travel. Some sort of "dimensional anchor" effect, perhaps, or a individual version of Plane Shift, or revisiting 3.5th edition's Baleful Teleport, which could cause psychic damage to the target. Or powers relating to the other planes, such as conjuration or banishment.
And while we're on the subject, if ANY class should get access to some version of Astral Projection, shouldn't it be the Mystic?
Mastery of Light and Darkness: Shadow Beasts is a problem. The user is summoning two chaotic evil undead creatures that obey your commands. But if you actually tell your shadows to use their Strength Drain in combat, you run the risk of it killing their opponent, and "if a non-evil humanoid dies from this attack, a new shadow rises from the corpse 1d4 hours later" So now the Mystic is permanently creating new chaotic evil undead creatures that he has no control over whatsoever. Summoning shadowy creatures is cool. We've seen this in the Shadow Sorcerer from the Light, Dark, Underdark! UA release. Summoning a pair of actual shadows? Problematic, at best. At worse, it lets an evil Mystic show up in a town, summon a pair of shadows, and tell them to start killing people. Sure, they'll go away after an hour. And a short time after that, all the good and neutral townsfolk they killed will spawn shadows. Who will kill more people. And thus spawn more shadows. With a single invocation of the power, our Mystic has now started an undead plague. That's a really, really good way to get Orders put on an "Execute on sight" list by any power group, whether religious or secular, who think that all psionic users can (and will) use their powers like that.
The current rules for Mystics and Psionics are obviously a labor of love by the WotC team. They should be commended for all the hard work and dedication they've obviously poured into the project. But, like all UA material, they can be further refined. Addressing these issues would go a long, long way in doing so, while still keeping the system fun for everyone in the game.
⏠If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
The magic/psionic interaction is nailed down, all you have to do is realize that psionics is not being treated as magic, at all. And why do you think anti-magic field would have any effect on psionics under these rules? Are you assuming psionic effects are magic effects? Treating psionics as just another magic is not what they are going for and it is good on them for it, psionics never quite feels right when it is just another magic, and if it were I would ignore it as a waste of my time. From my point of view, this pretty much rules out all three of your possible solutions. We clearly have different ideas of what psionics should be in game, but making it just anther magic is boring.
Yes, psionics is completely covert, that is working as intended. You have a person sitting their not casting magic or fighting, in the middle of battle, and just standing their looking pretty. Would you not see it as out of place in the very least? Or perhaps the high int/wis people noticing the same thing, a person who seems to be concentrating on something rather than fighting? Put that in combination with strange things happening with no obvious source are also happening, perhaps your allies break and run when they have a big advantage or any number of other things? It might throw you for a loop initially, but you would figure it out sooner or later that that guy is doing something. At the very least they should get the idea that something is out of place with that guy, even if they don't know what it is offhand.
I would be for them reworking the Illithids to be actual psionicists. That would fit better in a game with psionicist player characters, and if I recall that is how they were originally introduced to the D&D world anyway. The magic given to them as "psionics" was more of a stopgap in my mind until they released actual psionics.
I don't see the difference in the number of disciplines being an issue either. If they were limited to their own class disciplines then sure, but they aren't, and their are several disciplines that work well for other orders than who's list they happen to be on. They are also not all created equal, and they may add more when/if this is ever released.
Also remember, this is play test material, it will likely get some changes before final release anyway. I agree that they did a great job with it. I think the biggest difference between us is how we conceptualize what psionics actually is.
I always looked at the interaction of psionics and antimagic spells like this. Spells like antimagic field generate a kind of static that interferes with energy formation in a pattern, a dispel magic causes the energy that's already there to unravel.
Just my .2
"The magic/psionic interaction is nailed down, all you have to do is realize that psionics is not being treated as magic, at all."
You should read the Sage Advice collection on the Mystics (and Psionics v3) here: http://www.sageadvice.eu/tag/uamysticpsionic/
There's eight pages of collected Q&A. You'll find Jeremy Crawford stating that "Psionic effects are magical, as stated in the mystic document." That's done twice, actually.
Page 3: Psionics is a special form of magic use, distinct from spellcasting.
Page 9: Psionic disciplines are magical and function similarly to spells.
You'll also see him confirming that, since psionics are a form of magic, Antimagic Field works, but Counterspell doesn't, since they're not spells. He posted that after the original feedback was written, but it could still use a bit of added verbiage to firm it up.
"Yes, psionics is completely covert, that is working as intended."
It's also a change from 3rd and 4th edition, in which psionics were not covert. Thus the question. It's a pretty significant design change if that's what is intended.
⏠If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
Admittedly I haven't read the sage advice's recently, but if he did say that, that is a disappointment imho.
I much prefer the description in the Psionics Handboook from years ago.
It also talks about psionics being the exact opposite of magic...
I can't say I know anything about the 4e rules, literally less than nothing. I have never touched that edition. 3e I bought some books early on, was disappointed in many aspects of the rules, including the psionics rules, and moved on to stuff other than D&D. It was 5e that brought me back.
From this you can see where my inspiration when it comes to psionics comes from. It turns out every other game I played that includes psionics treats psionics as something other than magic.
So you are on your Spelljammer helm? That was a fun setting.
I agree, psionics shouldn't be treated as magic, but rather as something else entirely.
Psionics are not magic because the process of using them is completely different. They are based on a persons innate ability. Whereas magic can be learned and improved through training. Psionics are almost impossible to learn if you don't have the talent. Therefore they are something else.
My name, is Balthazaar Cage! Savior of Ravenscrest, defender of the light, reincarnated chosen one of the gods, rightful ruler of all that can be seen and half of that which is unseen. If that's to long you may simply refer to me as "Sorcerer Supreme."
While I grok the idea of psionics being an equal-yet-distinct power system, it looks like 5th edition is going for "Another flavor of magic" instead, so I'm not going to let the perfect be the enemy of the good on this one.
Smalljammers were the 'baby' Spelljammers. They were awesome incarnate. The crew had one if you go way, way back to the old Spelljammer comic book. Good times.
⏠If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
The casting of the spells should probably be covert but depending on what the spell is it should be very overt. Something like a blast of psychic energy should be plain as day. And there is no way a Mind Blade is invisible (how am I going to have my void colored blades swirling with stars if they're invisible?).
As for counterspell, I don't see why it shouldn't be effective (other than RAW). Mystics are plenty powerful already without having spellslots to manage and can repetitively cast their strongest spells till they run out of Psi, no reason to also make it immune to counterspell.
I hate Dungeons & Dragons. :D
Because RAW. Counterspell only works on spells. You can't counter an Illithid's Mind Blast, for example.
⏠If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
I am thinking seriously about this, and Psionics are more like a Speciality archetipical power to me. I mean, you take the fighter for example, right now with all his Ability Score Improvemanet, the Idea of a super humanoid, it seems neat to me (to become the 3.5 and 4th edition psionic classes). One wizard winning Psionic power thnaks to his leand magic (to be the psionic), or the paladin remade for his deity and oath to be more than the mortal than he was (the ardent equivalent from 4E). I am going to try my own psionic class, but more often my own psionic specialities.
Hombrewing and roleplaying a lot.
Points 1 and 2 of the OP are fairly on point. While I like the idea of psionics being slightly different than magic it makes sense to iron out the interactions. And psionics should definitely have some sort of 'display'. Invisible powers open up a whole can of worms. especially when they get as powerful of some upper level Mystic stuff.
Point 3 is kinda irrelevant. The mindflayer mind blast is a at will ability. The equivalent of a cantrip. I don't see any Mystic talents as a apples to apples comparison.
Current Characters I am playing: Dr Konstantin van Wulf | Taegen Willowrun | Mad Magnar
Check out my homebrew: Items | Monsters | Spells | Subclasses | Feats
Regarding point 2, I fully intend to keep psionics covert in my homebrew, as it works perfectly with established lore.
I use the psionic race known as Elan as a sort of psychic illuminati organization, using their powers to manipulate the affairs of the other races. OP? Perhaps, but useful for an evil DM.
Futuaris nisi irrisius ridebus.
In my Elanon campaign, we have an Immortal Mystic and the party is now at 8th level. One of the players DMs our CoS group and has said multiple times that he would NEVER allow a mystic in his campaign. My take was I have not like psionics in any of the previous versions, but I had a player that really wanted to play, so I allowed with the warning that we would treat it as playtest and make adjustments if needed.
After 8 levels, we have not had any problems yet. In fact, there has not been a single battle where the Mystic dominated the party. He has done a lot of cool things, but nothing more OP than another party member.
In fact, we built part of the campaign around the mystic. The player declared that he wanted to find a "Book of the Immortals". The last Mystics died out in a catastrophe over 3000 years ago, and he is not finding that he is in race against Mindflayers and Liches for a full copy of the book. He has found a few pages, but he has also encountered a secret society that will stop at nothing to make sure the knowledge never returns to the world. So, it has become a major plot thread in the campaign.
I figure we will be around 12-13th level when XGE comes out in November, and we will have to sit down and see if we make any changes, but it seems to be working fine. I am glad I let a player talk me into something I would never had put in otherwise.
--
DM -- Elanon -- Homebrew world
Gronn -- Tiefling Warlock -- Amarath
Slim -- Halfling Cleric -- CoS (future Lord of Waterdeep đ)
Bran -- Human Wizard - RoT
Making D&D mistakes and having fun since 1977!
⏠If you thought I added value to the conversation, please let me know!
Regarding the Psionic Restoration Discipline, that needs some nerfing. One of the powers replicates Revivify, which in many campaigns is limited by requiring material components. Another of the powers (arguably) replicates Greater Restoration, which has the same restrictions. I would require material components for those two powers to keep everything even. A party getting overpowered is easily handled. A single player getting overpowered, not so much.
I'm considering playing a Mystic for an upcoming campaign, and I've told the DM in advance that I'd be happy to help him apply changes where he sees fit.
I'm truly saddened to see this fun and unique class abandoned and put into the subclasses of other classes. They don't entirely fill my need to be a psionic warrior