I'm a milestone guy, but my players like the sense that they are moving toward a goal. They need more frequent reminders of their progress. So I roughly calculate the XP based on combat and eyeball awards for things like roleplay/interaction, midway achievements, ingenuity, loot, etc.
Not really a fan of this system. I would rather simply see rules to award bonus EXP under the old rules... But then, DM Fiat, so even that is unnecessary.
Not really a fan of this system. I would rather simply see rules to award bonus EXP under the old rules... But then, DM Fiat, so even that is unnecessary.
My thoughts exactly.
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"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
Not really a fan of this system. I would rather simply see rules to award bonus EXP under the old rules... But then, DM Fiat, so even that is unnecessary.
My thoughts exactly.
I could see the UA for being useful as a guideline for DMs who want to use the old xp. Looking at the combat section, we see that the average is 5/monster defeated for what amounts to a hard-deadly encounter, 2/monster for an easy-medium encounter, and 15/monster if that monster on it's own constitutes a deadly encounter. Assuming a standard party of 4 we're looking at an average of 10 xp/per encounter, or enough xp for a hard encounter. Comparing to the other "pillar" awards, it's generally 10 xp/per tier level (with an additional 10 for above each tier above level and different maths/pillar for below level), or about enough for a hard encounter.
Use the guidelines in the UA for WHEN to award xp, then use the the Hard column on the XP Threshold by Character Level chart on pg 82 of the DMG to award xp based on your players' current level.
Now, how useful this would be to DMs is a different question. For NPC encounters, I already reward my PCs based on the DC (easy, medium, hard, very hard) of what my players attempt, again using the chart on pg 82 of the DMG. The exploration part of the UA is giving me some ideas now that the players have encountered their first dungeon.
I could see the UA for being useful as a guideline for DMs who want to use the old xp... Use the guidelines in the UA for WHEN to award xp, then use the the Hard column on the XP Threshold by Character Level chart on pg 82 of the DMG to award xp based on your players' current level.
Why? What value does it add? If I were to identify the main ideas behind this system, it is 1) flattening the EXP curve which is a TERRIBLE idea, 2) Simplifying EXP awards (and in the process doing away with everything the DMG says about how to construct an encounter, offering nothing to replace it) and 3) standardizing something that doesn't need to be standardized. IMO, if you are running 1 shots, then levels and EXP are, for the most part pre-determined anyway, and if you are creating your own adventure, then this system is worse than useless, because it works backwards. Literally, the system could be "You go to 100xp levels and award however much xp you want whenever you want" and it would be a BETTERsystem.
First of all, We already do "use the guidelines in the UA for when to award EXP." At least, when related to combat. Treasure usually involves combat, so I don't see a need to award EXP for finding treasure. Finding treasure is already an award. Locations also tend to feature combat (and loot), so again, I don't really see the point of awarding random EXPs every 5 minutes, and would only award location/object XP under truly extraordinary circumstances (like activating an artifact that threw you to another plane of existance) or else because, as DM, I believed that it was time for a level up anyway and WANTED to do it (which I don't need this for). EXP gain is also way too high under this system... so throw ALL of that out the window, and what we are left with is social interactions.
Now social interactions are tricky. As a DM, most of us would like to encourage our players to socialize with NPCs, it's one of the few times that the DM actually gets to participate in the game. There are also characters who specialize in charisma/face non-combat RP opportunities, and who sacrifice combat prowess to do it. It feels right to reward them as we do the fighters who actually carry the combat portion of the game with their wild maneuvers and huge damages. Also, mechanically, convincing a shopkeeper to part with his dead daughter's spyglass because it might help you save the world does feel a bit like combat. There are rounds, there is dice rolling, there is risk of failure. Sometimes RP a scene can take the better part of an hour, and can include some of a face-character's real shining moments, so there is a real argument for social interaction based EXP.
That said, there are 3 reasons not to award social encounter based. I am not arguing that it should not be done, however. It's purely optional.
First, the XP system is related to, and designed to be a measure of FIGHTING prowess. 90% of classes, even when looking at the expanded UA stuff, do not become better talkers, they become better fighters. Their HP increases, they pickup new spells or fighting styles. It makes no logical sense to move someone forward along a combat tracker, because of talking.
Second, Talking is easy. Sure, some conversations can be campaign critical, but imagine if we created a full CR system for all of the people around waterdeep. It's highly abusable, and could be game killing, if given any kind of real weight/structure by RAW, which is why it is better left to the discretion of the DM.
Third, let's look at the actual text of this pillar.
You gain 5 XP for affecting an NPC one tier below you (? what?), but you gain no XP for NPCs of a lower tier than that.NPCs are assigned to tiers as follows:Tier 1: An NPC with influence over a small town or village, or the equivalent
So, my number one problem with awarding social XP, especially acoording to this system, is that if it is your goal to reward good roleplay, if that is what you want to do, this system doesn't accomplish that goal. AT ALL. CONGRATULATIONS! You have persuaded the innkeeper to share something of value... and you get 5 XP! Yay! Simply put, unless you make a conscious effort to trap your characters in some type of political power game (which D&D is not really the right system for this) then, over the course of the game, those token XP drops are going to be little more than a slap in the face, every time that you get one. It is much better to find a different way to reward good role-play that doesn't effect the combat track. I'd rather do 1-2 really large XP drops at semi-critical moments, or find other ways for an NPC to reward good roleplay
I could see the UA for being useful as a guideline for DMs who want to use the old xp... Use the guidelines in the UA for WHEN to award xp, then use the the Hard column on the XP Threshold by Character Level chart on pg 82 of the DMG to award xp based on your players' current level.
Why? What value does it add? If I were to identify the main ideas behind this system, it is 1) flattening the EXP curve which is a TERRIBLE idea, 2) Simplifying EXP awards (and in the process doing away with everything the DMG says about how to construct an encounter, offering nothing to replace it) and 3) standardizing something that doesn't need to be standardized. IMO, if you are running 1 shots, then levels and EXP are, for the most part pre-determined anyway, and if you are creating your own adventure, then this system is worse than useless, because it works backwards. Literally, the system could be "You go to 100xp levels and award however much xp you want whenever you want" and it would be a BETTERsystem.
*snip*
You gain 5 XP for affecting an NPC one tier below you (? what?), but you gain no XP for NPCs of a lower tier than that.NPCs are assigned to tiers as follows:Tier 1: An NPC with influence over a small town or village, or the equivalent
So, my number one problem with awarding social XP, especially acoording to this system, is that if it is your goal to reward good roleplay, if that is what you want to do, this system doesn't accomplish that goal. AT ALL. CONGRATULATIONS! You have persuaded the innkeeper to share something of value... and you get 5 XP! Yay! Simply put, unless you make a conscious effort to trap your characters in some type of political power game (which D&D is not really the right system for this) then, over the course of the game, those token XP drops are going to be little more than a slap in the face, every time that you get one. It is much better to find a different way to reward good role-play that doesn't effect the combat track.
Some of us don't like going straight "DM Fiat". Now, it can be argued that pretty much any RPG system is pretty much being run by DM fiat, but for the most part I like my players to be able to know what to expect from me. If there are xp rewards for social and exploration pillars, I want them to have at least a general idea of what those rewards are likely to be. That said, I don't like a good 75% of what the UA offers (the flattened 100xp thing for one) and was merely showing HOW one could take the useful bits while leaving the refuse behind. Though, I did a little too much math in my theoretical application the other day - really it could have all boiled down to "tier appropriate Social and Exploration encounters reward 10% of xp to get to next level" (which comes up with much lower xp rewards than my idea yesterday).
Useful bits like exploration XP - you see it as being useless because locations and treasures already come with combat encounters - which ties in to your later statement that XP should be tied specifically to the combat track. Which if you're running a straight up combat focused game is fine, by all means leave it tied to combat and ignore xp rewards for anything else. But if you want to, the UA shows when a good time for rewarding exploration xp should occur - an extra 10% xp for raiding a lost tomb isn't going to break the system.
That said, I like Angry GM's megadungeon approach to exploration xp better, but the UA has given me some ideas on how to include it without having to rebuild the whole xp system (which is ironic because the authors of the UA rebuild the whole xp system): http://theangrygm.com/category/megadungeon/
As for the social - the whole point of the tier deal deal - your "what?" is easily answered:
Tier 1: An NPC with influence over a small town or village, or the equivalent
Tier 2: An NPC with influence over a city or the equivalent
Tier 3: An NPC with influence over a kingdom, a continent, or the equivalent
Tier 4: An NPC (including a deity) with cosmic significance or influence across multiple worlds
- is that at no point in this system do you get any xp for sweet talking that inn-keeper out of anything - whether that be a health potion or their pants. Not unless that inn-keeper is really important to the town. At first level - sweet talk the mayor into reversing the town's racial discrimination against half-orcs, great, you get xp. Convince the adventurer-hating sheriff that your guys are not just random murder-hobos but a boon to the town? XP. Do the same at level 11? Get out of here with your piddly town-level problems. The whole system expands on the very vague blurb on Noncombat Challenges in the DMG pg 261.
As for the whole bit about "First, the XP system is related to, and designed to be a measure of FIGHTING prowess. 90% of classes, even when looking at the expanded UA stuff, do not become better talkers, they become better fighters. Their HP increases, they pickup new spells or fighting styles. It makes no logical sense to move someone forward along a combat tracker, because of talking."
100% of all characters, regardless of class, becomes a better talker if they have any social skills such as Persuasion or Intimidation - perhaps not at the same speed with which they get more HP or spells for certain casting classes (and if you only see spells as being useful in combat, then you've never sat at a table with any of my players), but that Proficiency Bonus ticks up after every fourth level all the same and affects every skill (some more for others if you're a bard or rogue).
Useful bits like exploration XP - you see it as being useless because locations and treasures already come with combat encounters - which ties in to your later statement that XP should be tied specifically to the combat track. Which if you're running a straight up combat focused game is fine, by all means leave it tied to combat and ignore xp rewards for anything else. But if you want to, the UA shows when a good time for rewarding exploration xp should occur - an extra 10% xp for raiding a lost tomb isn't going to break the system.
By the same token withholding 10% of the EXP would also not break the system... and, while you imply that the combat based XP system should only be relevant to combat focused campaigns, you are basically admitting here that, well, actually, there is going to be enough EXP to go around, regardless.
Useful bits like exploration XP - you see it as being useless because locations and treasures already come with combat encounters - which ties in to your later statement that XP should be tied specifically to the combat track. Which if you're running a straight up combat focused game is fine, by all means leave it tied to combat and ignore xp rewards for anything else. But if you want to, the UA shows when a good time for rewarding exploration xp should occur - an extra 10% xp for raiding a lost tomb isn't going to break the system.
By the same token withholding 10% of the EXP would also not break the system... and, while you imply that the combat based XP system should only be relevant to combat focused campaigns, you are basically admitting here that, well, actually, there is going to be enough EXP to go around, regardless.
It really depends on the table. I've got two D&D groups I DM for right now. One *loves* combat and will go actively seeking combat encounters. For them, the default xp for combat works perfectly.
The other is more diverse. They can go several sessions without ever going anywhere near a combat encounter. If I don't provide some xp from the other "pillars" (which, can I really say how much I hate that term - combat, social, exploration, it's all RPG), then no, there's not enough XP to go around. Now, you could say that in that case, just throw xp out in favor of Milestone, and I will be doing that eventually, but these players are all new to 5e, so for the first few levels I like to be able to show them that yes, their actions are affecting their advancement, and that there is a cohesive system behind it.
It's DM Fiat in the sense that yes, I have arbitrarily decided to award xp for these certain things, but it ceases to be DM Fiat in the sense that there's a consistency and standard that my players know about and that I'm holding myself to. "Your level 1 characters get 33 xp for forging an alliance with the town mayor, 33xp for discovering the secret of the forgotten ruins, 10xp for discovering the secret room in the mill, and 23 xp for rescuing the town children" lets my players know what rewards to expect when and also places them well on their way to level 2. During level 2 I'll be doing much the same thing, so that when level 3 happens and we switch to Milestone, my players know there's more method to the madness than "You ding when I say you ding". That, and really, straight Milestone is a nightmare when you're running a more sandbox style game - even once we switch to more Milestone method of advancement (from the Players' perspective) I'm still going to be keeping track of party xp from behind the screen (and they know this).
I was... underwhelmed by this UA. It felt like someone remembered at 4pm on Friday that UA was due on Monday.
All DMs that I've played with or discussed DMing with provides XP based on multiple layers (or pillars as they call them).
I can agree with your statement, Sorce. I was also underwhelmed by this UA article. I, as a DM, award experience based on several factors, i.e. pillars, including those like play time, monsters killed, critical roles, and more. The methods provided in this article are interesting, yet I cannot agree with the level system they suggested. With that flaw, the merits can still shine. I find the idea of exploration providing experience could be interesting in an open-ended campaign setting. The players wanted to visit these ruins over a castle? What kind of ruins will they behold, and what kind of experience will they gained from this adventure? The social interaction experience is already considered for most DMs, but I do like the idea of varying experience on whom you talk to. This idea could be further explored with gaining influence over others rather than speaking with those that have influence. Regardless, the article provides newer DMs with ideas on rewarding experience beyond the DMG or at least an elaboration on it.
After I read it, The only thing I took away from it was to incorporate Xp into Roleplay and Exploration...
So, I redece all monster XP in my encounters by 50%, and award Roleplay XP and Explore XP to fill in the gaps.. so far, been pretty good balance just winging it, though I pretty uch know ahead fo time how much XP a session is / should reward.. but adds more reward for getting my players more involved in the story...
I don't mess with the each level is 100XP stuff...
As a new player and coming from LOTRO / EQ2 I like the idea of getting EXP from other activities besides killing. The three pillars idea is really neat and seems to me to foster a fuller experience. Now, will the system work? Not so sure... But, the idea in concept is a good one.
teak
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http://media.wizards.com/2017/dnd/downloads/UA-ThreePillarXP.pdf
This is rather interesting for exploring and social XP awards.
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ModeratorI was... underwhelmed by this UA. It felt like someone remembered at 4pm on Friday that UA was due on Monday.
All DMs that I've played with or discussed DMing with provides XP based on multiple layers (or pillars as they call them).
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I found it surprisingly simple when I read it, and sort of like it. In my opinion, it seems easier to track than the current XP system.
I'm a milestone guy, but my players like the sense that they are moving toward a goal. They need more frequent reminders of their progress. So I roughly calculate the XP based on combat and eyeball awards for things like roleplay/interaction, midway achievements, ingenuity, loot, etc.
Not really a fan of this system. I would rather simply see rules to award bonus EXP under the old rules... But then, DM Fiat, so even that is unnecessary.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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Why? What value does it add? If I were to identify the main ideas behind this system, it is 1) flattening the EXP curve which is a TERRIBLE idea, 2) Simplifying EXP awards (and in the process doing away with everything the DMG says about how to construct an encounter, offering nothing to replace it) and 3) standardizing something that doesn't need to be standardized. IMO, if you are running 1 shots, then levels and EXP are, for the most part pre-determined anyway, and if you are creating your own adventure, then this system is worse than useless, because it works backwards. Literally, the system could be "You go to 100xp levels and award however much xp you want whenever you want" and it would be a BETTER system.
First of all, We already do "use the guidelines in the UA for when to award EXP." At least, when related to combat. Treasure usually involves combat, so I don't see a need to award EXP for finding treasure. Finding treasure is already an award. Locations also tend to feature combat (and loot), so again, I don't really see the point of awarding random EXPs every 5 minutes, and would only award location/object XP under truly extraordinary circumstances (like activating an artifact that threw you to another plane of existance) or else because, as DM, I believed that it was time for a level up anyway and WANTED to do it (which I don't need this for). EXP gain is also way too high under this system... so throw ALL of that out the window, and what we are left with is social interactions.
Now social interactions are tricky. As a DM, most of us would like to encourage our players to socialize with NPCs, it's one of the few times that the DM actually gets to participate in the game. There are also characters who specialize in charisma/face non-combat RP opportunities, and who sacrifice combat prowess to do it. It feels right to reward them as we do the fighters who actually carry the combat portion of the game with their wild maneuvers and huge damages. Also, mechanically, convincing a shopkeeper to part with his dead daughter's spyglass because it might help you save the world does feel a bit like combat. There are rounds, there is dice rolling, there is risk of failure. Sometimes RP a scene can take the better part of an hour, and can include some of a face-character's real shining moments, so there is a real argument for social interaction based EXP.
That said, there are 3 reasons not to award social encounter based. I am not arguing that it should not be done, however. It's purely optional.
Simply put, unless you make a conscious effort to trap your characters in some type of political power game (which D&D is not really the right system for this) then, over the course of the game, those token XP drops are going to be little more than a slap in the face, every time that you get one. It is much better to find a different way to reward good role-play that doesn't effect the combat track. I'd rather do 1-2 really large XP drops at semi-critical moments, or find other ways for an NPC to reward good roleplay
After I read it, The only thing I took away from it was to incorporate Xp into Roleplay and Exploration...
So, I redece all monster XP in my encounters by 50%, and award Roleplay XP and Explore XP to fill in the gaps.. so far, been pretty good balance just winging it, though I pretty uch know ahead fo time how much XP a session is / should reward.. but adds more reward for getting my players more involved in the story...
I don't mess with the each level is 100XP stuff...
As a new player and coming from LOTRO / EQ2 I like the idea of getting EXP from other activities besides killing. The three pillars idea is really neat and seems to me to foster a fuller experience. Now, will the system work? Not so sure... But, the idea in concept is a good one.
teak
A little bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men...
- Willy Wonka