So...our DM's wife runs a bugbear ranger. Gloomstalker, 4th level. We meet 3 lovely people who wish to kill us, a party of 5 - 2 rangers, 1 warlock, a cleric and a barbarian.
The bugbear does just a huge amount of the damage....but then gets 3 attacks? At 4th level? WTF? The rest of us didn't even really get a chance to attack so what was the point?
I don't play a ranger right now and have not played gloomstalker, but is that right?
A Gloom Stalker gets the feature Dread Ambusher at 3rd level. This feature does several things:
You can also add your Wisdom modifier to initiative rolls
On your first turn in combat your speed increases by 10ft. If you take the Attack action you can make an additional attack. This additional attack deals 1d8 extra damage if it hits.
Bugbears also have a very powerful feature called Sneaky. If they hit a creature that has not yet taken a turn in combat the hit deals an extra 2d6 damage.
Assuming they are two-weapon fighting with scimitars then they can make a total of three attacks. So they make their normal attack with their Attack action, make their additional attack from Dread Ambusher, then use their Bonus Action to make their two-weapon fighting attack.
That is 1d6+dex, 1d6+1d8+dex, and 1d6+dex (assuming they have the Two-Weapon Fighting Style). if their target hasn't acted yet then each hit deals an additional 2d6. Assuming every attack hits and is against a target that hasn't acted this is 9d6+1d8+(3*dex).
After this initial round they are back to two attacks for 1d6+dex each.
I don't know if that is necessarily what they did but there are builds around Bugbear Gloom Stalkers that are all about maximizing damage during the first round of combat.
That’s a fun combo, with good first round nova damage potential. Does depend to some degree on winning the initiative roll; a Twilight Cleric in the party or other ways to get an initiative boost makes it scarier. Throw rogue (assassin) on there for more fun. Not sure where the third attack came from unless it was a bonus off hand attack?
So...our DM's wife runs a bugbear ranger. Gloomstalker, 4th level. We meet 3 lovely people who wish to kill us, a party of 5 - 2 rangers, 1 warlock, a cleric and a barbarian.
The bugbear does just a huge amount of the damage....but then gets 3 attacks? At 4th level? WTF? The rest of us didn't even really get a chance to attack so what was the point?
I don't play a ranger right now and have not played gloomstalker, but is that right?
Just seems hugely overpowered.
Cheers!
A Bugbear Gloomstalker Ranger can effectively make up to three attacks (Attack action, Dread Ambusher, Bonus action) and deal extra damage (Surprise Attack, Hunter's Mark, Favored Foe) if the target hasn’t taken a turn yet in the current combat and the DM allowed spellcasting before initiative for exemple. There's several ways it can do this depending of the weapon or feat in use but can certainly look powerful as the combination of racial and class features is designed to maximize offensive output on the first round of combat when acting before enemies.
Bugbears also have a very powerful feature called Sneaky. If they hit a creature that has not yet taken a turn in combat the hit deals an extra 2d6 damage.
So...our DM's wife runs a bugbear ranger. Gloomstalker, 4th level. We meet 3 lovely people who wish to kill us, a party of 5 - 2 rangers, 1 warlock, a cleric and a barbarian.
The bugbear does just a huge amount of the damage....but then gets 3 attacks? At 4th level? WTF? The rest of us didn't even really get a chance to attack so what was the point?
I don't play a ranger right now and have not played gloomstalker, but is that right?
Just seems hugely overpowered.
Cheers!
A Bugbear Gloomstalker Ranger can effectively make up to three attacks (Attack action, Dread Ambusher, Bonus action) and deal extra damage (Surprise Attack, Hunter's Mark, Favored Foe) if the target hasn’t taken a turn yet in the current combat and the DM allowed spellcasting before initiative for exemple. There's several ways it can do this depending of the weapon or feat in use but can certainly look powerful as the combination of racial and class features is designed to maximize offensive output on the first round of combat when acting before enemies.
Bugbears are usually a first combat round alpha strike type build ... mostly due to their Surprise Attack ability that adds 2d6 of damage for any attack against creatures who have not yet taken a turn in the combat.
If the bugbear loses initiative Surprise Attack does nothing. After the first round of combat, surprise attack does nothing.
Gloomstalker also gets an extra attack, also only during the first round of combat. This attack can do an extra d8 of damage. After the first round of combat, the Gloomstalker doesn't get any additional attacks.
There are two ways for a 4th level ranger to have 3 attacks in the first round.
1) Two weapon fighting. Attack with main hand weapon, second attack with main hand weapon from gloomstalker, two weapon fighting attack with the weapon in the other hand.
2) X-bow expert feat with hand crossbow. Attack with hand crossbow, second attack with hand crossbow from gloomstalker, bonus action attack with hand crossbow from feat.
There are the additional damage options mentioned but Favored Foe will only add 2.5 damage/turn on average.
- Favored foe can be used to add d4 damage to the designated target once/turn when they are hit.
- Hunters mark is a spell but it requires a bonus action to cast. This will add d6 to every hit. For a bugbear, in the first round, it is better to make an attack with the bonus action if possible if there is a valid target for the surprise attack since it will usually be more damage than adding the d6 from Hunter's Mark.
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However, lets look at the average damage one might expect. Assume d6 weapons, 18 dex (+4).
TWF attacks: d6+4+2d6, d6+4+d8+2d6, d6+2d6 = 44 average damage (a lot!). However, the DM put 3 opponents up against a level 4 party with 5 characters.
Xbow Xpert: d6+4+2d6, d6+4+d8+2d6, d6+4+2d6 = 48 (even more damage)
Add a d4 for favored foe if you want to add insult to injury. Those numbers assume that every attack hits.
However, what are the typical opponents for a level 4 party of 5? CR 2-5? Many of these creatures have MORE that 44-50 hit points. The ranger will usually either kill one target or come close to it but after that first turn their damage is unexceptional. If the DM is running a reasonable game with reasonable opponents then the bugbear will look impressive on the first round, possibly taking out one opponent more or less on their own but that leaves two more targets for everyone else.
Also keep in mind, that if they ranger is not using a shield then their AC is typically lower and they are more vulnerable. They also don't have any more hit points. A fighter using two weapon fighting and action surge can also make three attacks in the first round of combat.
There are two ways for a 4th level ranger to have 3 attacks in the first round.
1) Two weapon fighting. Attack with main hand weapon, second attack with main hand weapon from gloomstalker, two weapon fighting attack with the weapon in the other hand.
2) X-bow expert feat with hand crossbow. Attack with hand crossbow, second attack with hand crossbow from gloomstalker, bonus action attack with hand crossbow from feat.
There is a more ways with the Polearm Master feat or Scimitar of Speed magic item for exemple.
If it makes it better, the gloomstalker trades a strong first turn for being slightly weaker than the average other class on later turns. (A 1-2 round combat will make him very powerful, but in a 5 round combat he'll be somewhat weak, overall.)
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DM, writer, and blog master of https://dragonencounters.com/ a blog dedicated to providing unusual, worthwhile encounters for each monster, making each one unique.
Also, suggestions for which monsters might be found together (for people tired of dungeons full of one humanoid race, and perhaps a few beasts and undead.)
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So...our DM's wife runs a bugbear ranger. Gloomstalker, 4th level. We meet 3 lovely people who wish to kill us, a party of 5 - 2 rangers, 1 warlock, a cleric and a barbarian.
The bugbear does just a huge amount of the damage....but then gets 3 attacks? At 4th level? WTF? The rest of us didn't even really get a chance to attack so what was the point?
I don't play a ranger right now and have not played gloomstalker, but is that right?
Just seems hugely overpowered.
Cheers!
A Gloom Stalker gets the feature Dread Ambusher at 3rd level. This feature does several things:
Bugbears also have a very powerful feature called Sneaky. If they hit a creature that has not yet taken a turn in combat the hit deals an extra 2d6 damage.
Assuming they are two-weapon fighting with scimitars then they can make a total of three attacks. So they make their normal attack with their Attack action, make their additional attack from Dread Ambusher, then use their Bonus Action to make their two-weapon fighting attack.
That is 1d6+dex, 1d6+1d8+dex, and 1d6+dex (assuming they have the Two-Weapon Fighting Style). if their target hasn't acted yet then each hit deals an additional 2d6. Assuming every attack hits and is against a target that hasn't acted this is 9d6+1d8+(3*dex).
After this initial round they are back to two attacks for 1d6+dex each.
I don't know if that is necessarily what they did but there are builds around Bugbear Gloom Stalkers that are all about maximizing damage during the first round of combat.
That’s a fun combo, with good first round nova damage potential. Does depend to some degree on winning the initiative roll; a Twilight Cleric in the party or other ways to get an initiative boost makes it scarier. Throw rogue (assassin) on there for more fun. Not sure where the third attack came from unless it was a bonus off hand attack?
A Bugbear Gloomstalker Ranger can effectively make up to three attacks (Attack action, Dread Ambusher, Bonus action) and deal extra damage (Surprise Attack, Hunter's Mark, Favored Foe) if the target hasn’t taken a turn yet in the current combat and the DM allowed spellcasting before initiative for exemple. There's several ways it can do this depending of the weapon or feat in use but can certainly look powerful as the combination of racial and class features is designed to maximize offensive output on the first round of combat when acting before enemies.
Cought Surprise Attack Couch ;)
Bugbears are usually a first combat round alpha strike type build ... mostly due to their Surprise Attack ability that adds 2d6 of damage for any attack against creatures who have not yet taken a turn in the combat.
If the bugbear loses initiative Surprise Attack does nothing. After the first round of combat, surprise attack does nothing.
Gloomstalker also gets an extra attack, also only during the first round of combat. This attack can do an extra d8 of damage. After the first round of combat, the Gloomstalker doesn't get any additional attacks.
There are two ways for a 4th level ranger to have 3 attacks in the first round.
1) Two weapon fighting. Attack with main hand weapon, second attack with main hand weapon from gloomstalker, two weapon fighting attack with the weapon in the other hand.
2) X-bow expert feat with hand crossbow. Attack with hand crossbow, second attack with hand crossbow from gloomstalker, bonus action attack with hand crossbow from feat.
There are the additional damage options mentioned but Favored Foe will only add 2.5 damage/turn on average.
- Favored foe can be used to add d4 damage to the designated target once/turn when they are hit.
- Hunters mark is a spell but it requires a bonus action to cast. This will add d6 to every hit. For a bugbear, in the first round, it is better to make an attack with the bonus action if possible if there is a valid target for the surprise attack since it will usually be more damage than adding the d6 from Hunter's Mark.
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However, lets look at the average damage one might expect. Assume d6 weapons, 18 dex (+4).
TWF attacks: d6+4+2d6, d6+4+d8+2d6, d6+2d6 = 44 average damage (a lot!). However, the DM put 3 opponents up against a level 4 party with 5 characters.
Xbow Xpert: d6+4+2d6, d6+4+d8+2d6, d6+4+2d6 = 48 (even more damage)
Add a d4 for favored foe if you want to add insult to injury. Those numbers assume that every attack hits.
However, what are the typical opponents for a level 4 party of 5? CR 2-5? Many of these creatures have MORE that 44-50 hit points. The ranger will usually either kill one target or come close to it but after that first turn their damage is unexceptional. If the DM is running a reasonable game with reasonable opponents then the bugbear will look impressive on the first round, possibly taking out one opponent more or less on their own but that leaves two more targets for everyone else.
Also keep in mind, that if they ranger is not using a shield then their AC is typically lower and they are more vulnerable. They also don't have any more hit points. A fighter using two weapon fighting and action surge can also make three attacks in the first round of combat.
There is a more ways with the Polearm Master feat or Scimitar of Speed magic item for exemple.
Thanks for all the information. It certainly is a powerful combo (bugbear\gloomstalker). I appreciate the assist in clarification.
If it makes it better, the gloomstalker trades a strong first turn for being slightly weaker than the average other class on later turns. (A 1-2 round combat will make him very powerful, but in a 5 round combat he'll be somewhat weak, overall.)
DM, writer, and blog master of https://dragonencounters.com/ a blog dedicated to providing unusual, worthwhile encounters for each monster, making each one unique.
Also, suggestions for which monsters might be found together (for people tired of dungeons full of one humanoid race, and perhaps a few beasts and undead.)