I was looking at the steel defender and I was curious, can it use its action to throw a magic stone you give it? Looking at the description for its actions it states that
"In combat, the defender shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. If you are incapacitated, the defender can take any action of its choice, not just Dodge."
Does this mean that it can use its action to throw the stone if it physically can (Like an ape steel defender)? I assume not but it would be cool if it could. I'm thinking the issue though is that throwing the stone is a ranged spell attack which I don't know if the steel defender can do. If it was just a ranged attack I think they can do it.
What do you guys think? Can they throw the stones?
I think to the part you bolded it is referring to other actions like hide, disengage, help, etc. not another form of attack outside the stat block. So I think you are correct in assuming it can’t throw the stones.
The phase "...or some other action" seems to be deliberately open ended. If the steel defender were physically capable of throwing, then I would allow it.
Being a "Spell Attack" has nothing to do with the thrower. They are a conduit for the caster's magic.
If i go by Tasha's version, the other action a Steel Defender can take doesn't exclude the Attack action when you command it or you're incapacitated so it could attack with a Magic Stone.
I can't find if it received an errata, but the entry on D&D beyond is different though. It specifically list the other actions it can take, which doesn't include the Attack action. According to this entry, it would therefore not be able to attack with a Magic Stone. Strangely, it lists its source as being the Basic Rules, but it is not contained in them. https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/steel-defender
Steel Defender. In combat, the steel defender shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take one of the actions in its stat block or the Dash, Disengage, Help, Hide, or Search action.
The version Plaguescarred found is pre Tashas. I would absolutely allow the steel defender to do this. There is a lot of usefull stuff the SD can do now, like using a healers kit or attuning and using a magic item like a wand of magic missiles.
Ha found it it's from Eberron -Rising from the Last War so D&D Beyond incorrectly list the source then.
Note also that Eberron-Rising from the Last War has errata that changes that section of the Steel Defender feature to match what appears in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. This errata document was released when Tasha's was released.
The [Tooltip Not Found] Statblock on D&D beyond hasn't yet been updated to reflect these changes. It notably still has the "Might of the Master" feature which was removed.
I think it makes sense, especially because the Magic Stone goes out of its way in the spell description to clarify that the stones can be thrown by other creatures. I've always considered the most useful part of Magic Stone to be the fact that it can give a viable ranged attack to other creatures... whether it's giving a civilian NPC a way to defend themselves or just to give something for the Barbarian to do against flying enemies.
Although this does raise the question... can you just give a Steel Defender a normal weapon? Can you give it a shield?
I think yes you could give the SD a normal weapon and shield, but it wouldn't be proficient so it wouldn't add proficiency to its weapon attacks and would have disadvantage on attacks with dex and str, ability checks and saves.
Although this does raise the question... can you just give a Steel Defender a normal weapon? Can you give it a shield?
Personally I would say that it would depend on a case by case basis. The text says that the Arty can chose the form when they create the SD, if the chosen form has limbs that could move in such a way that it could hold and or use / throw something - say a simian form then yes. If it does not - say a typical cat or dog then no.
Ha found it it's from Eberron -Rising from the Last War so D&D Beyond incorrectly list the source then.
Note also that Eberron-Rising from the Last War has errata that changes that section of the Steel Defender feature to match what appears in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. This errata document was released when Tasha's was released.
The Steel Defender Statblock on D&D beyond hasn't yet been updated to reflect these changes. It notably still has the "Might of the Master" feature which was removed.
Hehe thank you. I had checked errata for Tasha, but not for Eberron after. It make sense that they updated the wording. I will advise D&D Beyond.
First, the Steel Defender cannot explicitly take the Attack. Some people interpret the "some other action" clause to include Attack and some do not. Personally, I don't think that's the case. Otherwise you get weird situations where a Tasha's Beast Master can take two attacks and still order their Primal Companion to take two attacks, and I feel like that's a cheat. The clause "some other action" does not necessarily include any and all actions. And I like consistency between similarly-worded features.
Second, the makeup of the Steel Defender is kind of important. Some are quadrupedal. Others are bipedal. The stat block doesn't change, but these more flavorful descriptions can still influence how a DM decides to rule on a given activity. Does your Steel Defender have arms to throw a magic stone, or do they have a small cannon built into their back and loaded up? Can it wield a shield, albeit without proficiency? If a Steel Defender is given a [Tooltip Not Found], can it use it? Can it attune to magic items? These questions are all sort of in the same vein.
And if the stat block never changes, what's fair? Could two distinct Steel Defenders, from two distinct Battle Smiths, be so radically different as to have different capabilities?
It's true that when you compare the wording of the Steel Defender and Primal Companion, the Steel Defender doesn't say it can take the Attack action. But unfortunatly, people assume it can because the wording doesn't actually forbids it.
Steel Defender: In combat, the defender shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. If you are incapacitated, the defender can take any action of its choice, not just Dodge.
Primal Companion: In combat, the beast acts during your turn. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. You can also sacrifice one of your attacks when you take the Attack action to command the beast to take the Attack action. If you are incapacitated, the beast can take any action of its choice, not just Dodge.
Otherwise you get weird situations where a Tasha's Beast Master can take two attacks and still order their Primal Companion to take two attacks, and I feel like that's a cheat.
I don't understand, how do you arrive at 4 attacks?
A L5 Beast Master could take the Attack action to attack twice and a bonus action to command its Primal Companion to take the Attack action. Alternatively, the same character could instead take Attack action to attack once, sacrifice one of his attacks to command the beast to take the Attack action and a bonus action to command it to take the Attack action. So 3 attacks either way (2+1 or 1 + 2)
When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action.
So then the question is whether or not the Attack action is an action available to all creatures. I think it is given it's listed directly under Actions in Combat and is stated as "The most common action to take in combat" and is the same action when attacking with a weapon (manufactured or natural) or making an unarmed strike, so it has no prerequisites other than being able to take actions in the first place.
So if all monsters can take the attack action then surely the Steel Defender can too.
I think yes you could give the SD a normal weapon and shield, but it wouldn't be proficient so it wouldn't add proficiency to its weapon attacks and would have disadvantage on attacks with dex and str, ability checks and saves.
I think this is the most logical way to handle this. In this way, Magic Stone is basically the only attack other than its Force-Empowered Rend that has any kind of bonus to it, since Magic Stone replaces the attack roll to treat it as a spell attack from the person who cast Magic Stone. So a Steel Defender could be given Greatsword to attack with and potentially deal more damage than its base attack (assuming it has a form that can wield one), but it only gets a +2 to the attack, instead of using the Artificer's spell attack bonus.
When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action.
So then the question is whether or not the Attack action is an action available to all creatures. I think it is given it's listed directly under Actions in Combat and is stated as "The most common action to take in combat" and is the same action when attacking with a weapon (manufactured or natural) or making an unarmed strike, so it has no prerequisites other than being able to take actions in the first place.
So if all monsters can take the attack action then surely the Steel Defender can too.
Granted, (as always) DMs can rule otherwise.
I love that you cited this, but the problem here is the Steel Defender isn't choosing an action. Rather, it's dependent on what the Battle Smith can order it to do.
When a monster takes its action, it can choose from the options in the Actions section of its stat block or use one of the actions available to all creatures, such as the Dash or Hide action.
So then the question is whether or not the Attack action is an action available to all creatures. I think it is given it's listed directly under Actions in Combat and is stated as "The most common action to take in combat" and is the same action when attacking with a weapon (manufactured or natural) or making an unarmed strike, so it has no prerequisites other than being able to take actions in the first place.
So if all monsters can take the attack action then surely the Steel Defender can too.
Granted, (as always) DMs can rule otherwise.
I love that you cited this, but the problem here is the Steel Defender isn't choosing an action. Rather, it's dependent on what the Battle Smith can order it to do.
That seems like such a ridiculously pedantic technicality to me. The issue isn't what the steel defender can choose. The Steel Defender will choose what it's commanded to do or Dodge.
The issue is what actions are available to it.
If an action is "available to all creatures" then it's an action the Battle Smith can command their Steel Defender to take. You made the point that "some other action" doesn't specify specify what specific actions are available to the Steel Defender I'm not disagreeing with that. Since it doesn't specifically say what other actions are available you default to the generic rules to see what other actions are available. I referenced the generic rules.
Hence my point is thus: "some other action" is selecting from the other actions that creature has access to.
If the Attack action is available to the Steel Defender then it's an action the Battle Smith can command it to take. Full stop.
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I was looking at the steel defender and I was curious, can it use its action to throw a magic stone you give it? Looking at the description for its actions it states that
"In combat, the defender shares your initiative count, but it takes its turn immediately after yours. It can move and use its reaction on its own, but the only action it takes on its turn is the Dodge action, unless you take a bonus action on your turn to command it to take another action. That action can be one in its stat block or some other action. If you are incapacitated, the defender can take any action of its choice, not just Dodge."
Does this mean that it can use its action to throw the stone if it physically can (Like an ape steel defender)? I assume not but it would be cool if it could. I'm thinking the issue though is that throwing the stone is a ranged spell attack which I don't know if the steel defender can do. If it was just a ranged attack I think they can do it.
What do you guys think? Can they throw the stones?
I think to the part you bolded it is referring to other actions like hide, disengage, help, etc. not another form of attack outside the stat block. So I think you are correct in assuming it can’t throw the stones.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
The phase "...or some other action" seems to be deliberately open ended. If the steel defender were physically capable of throwing, then I would allow it.
Being a "Spell Attack" has nothing to do with the thrower. They are a conduit for the caster's magic.
If i go by Tasha's version, the other action a Steel Defender can take doesn't exclude the Attack action when you command it or you're incapacitated so it could attack with a Magic Stone.
I can't find if it received an errata, but the entry on D&D beyond is different though. It specifically list the other actions it can take, which doesn't include the Attack action. According to this entry, it would therefore not be able to attack with a Magic Stone. Strangely, it lists its source as being the Basic Rules, but it is not contained in them. https://www.dndbeyond.com/monsters/steel-defenderThe version Plaguescarred found is pre Tashas. I would absolutely allow the steel defender to do this. There is a lot of usefull stuff the SD can do now, like using a healers kit or attuning and using a magic item like a wand of magic missiles.
Ha found it it's from Eberron -Rising from the Last War so D&D Beyond incorrectly list the source then.
Note also that Eberron-Rising from the Last War has errata that changes that section of the Steel Defender feature to match what appears in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything. This errata document was released when Tasha's was released.
The [Tooltip Not Found] Statblock on D&D beyond hasn't yet been updated to reflect these changes. It notably still has the "Might of the Master" feature which was removed.
I think it makes sense, especially because the Magic Stone goes out of its way in the spell description to clarify that the stones can be thrown by other creatures. I've always considered the most useful part of Magic Stone to be the fact that it can give a viable ranged attack to other creatures... whether it's giving a civilian NPC a way to defend themselves or just to give something for the Barbarian to do against flying enemies.
Although this does raise the question... can you just give a Steel Defender a normal weapon? Can you give it a shield?
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I think yes you could give the SD a normal weapon and shield, but it wouldn't be proficient so it wouldn't add proficiency to its weapon attacks and would have disadvantage on attacks with dex and str, ability checks and saves.
Although this does raise the question... can you just give a Steel Defender a normal weapon? Can you give it a shield?
Personally I would say that it would depend on a case by case basis. The text says that the Arty can chose the form when they create the SD, if the chosen form has limbs that could move in such a way that it could hold and or use / throw something - say a simian form then yes. If it does not - say a typical cat or dog then no.
Hehe thank you. I had checked errata for Tasha, but not for Eberron after. It make sense that they updated the wording. I will advise D&D Beyond.
This depends on a couple of factors.
First, the Steel Defender cannot explicitly take the Attack. Some people interpret the "some other action" clause to include Attack and some do not. Personally, I don't think that's the case. Otherwise you get weird situations where a Tasha's Beast Master can take two attacks and still order their Primal Companion to take two attacks, and I feel like that's a cheat. The clause "some other action" does not necessarily include any and all actions. And I like consistency between similarly-worded features.
Second, the makeup of the Steel Defender is kind of important. Some are quadrupedal. Others are bipedal. The stat block doesn't change, but these more flavorful descriptions can still influence how a DM decides to rule on a given activity. Does your Steel Defender have arms to throw a magic stone, or do they have a small cannon built into their back and loaded up? Can it wield a shield, albeit without proficiency? If a Steel Defender is given a [Tooltip Not Found], can it use it? Can it attune to magic items? These questions are all sort of in the same vein.
And if the stat block never changes, what's fair? Could two distinct Steel Defenders, from two distinct Battle Smiths, be so radically different as to have different capabilities?
Talk to your DM about this.
It's true that when you compare the wording of the Steel Defender and Primal Companion, the Steel Defender doesn't say it can take the Attack action. But unfortunatly, people assume it can because the wording doesn't actually forbids it.
I don't understand, how do you arrive at 4 attacks?
A L5 Beast Master could take the Attack action to attack twice and a bonus action to command its Primal Companion to take the Attack action. Alternatively, the same character could instead take Attack action to attack once, sacrifice one of his attacks to command the beast to take the Attack action and a bonus action to command it to take the Attack action. So 3 attacks either way (2+1 or 1 + 2)
Monster actions
So then the question is whether or not the Attack action is an action available to all creatures. I think it is given it's listed directly under Actions in Combat and is stated as "The most common action to take in combat" and is the same action when attacking with a weapon (manufactured or natural) or making an unarmed strike, so it has no prerequisites other than being able to take actions in the first place.
So if all monsters can take the attack action then surely the Steel Defender can too.
Granted, (as always) DMs can rule otherwise.
I think this is the most logical way to handle this. In this way, Magic Stone is basically the only attack other than its Force-Empowered Rend that has any kind of bonus to it, since Magic Stone replaces the attack roll to treat it as a spell attack from the person who cast Magic Stone. So a Steel Defender could be given Greatsword to attack with and potentially deal more damage than its base attack (assuming it has a form that can wield one), but it only gets a +2 to the attack, instead of using the Artificer's spell attack bonus.
Watch Crits for Breakfast, an adults-only RP-Heavy Roll20 Livestream at twitch.tv/afterdisbooty
And now you too can play with the amazing art and assets we use in Roll20 for our campaign at Hazel's Emporium
I love that you cited this, but the problem here is the Steel Defender isn't choosing an action. Rather, it's dependent on what the Battle Smith can order it to do.
That seems like such a ridiculously pedantic technicality to me. The issue isn't what the steel defender can choose. The Steel Defender will choose what it's commanded to do or Dodge.
The issue is what actions are available to it.
If an action is "available to all creatures" then it's an action the Battle Smith can command their Steel Defender to take.
You made the point that "some other action" doesn't specify specify what specific actions are available to the Steel Defender I'm not disagreeing with that.
Since it doesn't specifically say what other actions are available you default to the generic rules to see what other actions are available. I referenced the generic rules.
Hence my point is thus: "some other action" is selecting from the other actions that creature has access to.
If the Attack action is available to the Steel Defender then it's an action the Battle Smith can command it to take. Full stop.