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AC of you or the beast what ever higher . I mean it would be like 99.9999% chance 13+wis would be higher than the beast AC and when I talked I talked about the moon wildshape because it is the druid hat is focused on wildshape ... duh

 Circle of the Moon are the ones completely based around Wildshape, but it's still a massive part of any Druid character surely 

Wildshape is the Druid's USP really. In the last few editions at least. It's one of the things that stops them just being a "Nature Cleric" 

People are certainly free to say they prefer this balance of abilities for Druids, but I don't see how anyone can claim WotC haven't nerfed Wildshape (less so for Moonies, but still even for them). Again, you may prefer having a generally more limited Wildshape in return for other class abilities. But I think most people who play Druids consider Wildshape to be a central part of that experience so I'm not surprised they see this new version as an overall nerf of the class 

I agree false flag operation (or gaslighting for that matter) is a bit strong though :D 

 It's not really a nerf though. Both damage and AC are buffed, number of uses is buffed and if you're willing to expend spell slots for wild shape uses then the potential extra hp you can gain is also buffed (though you get less of it per wild shape use). Due to the way the hp works it also makes rarely used wild shape options more viable. About the only actual nerf is losing Elemental Wild Shapes, and you still get elemental damage at level 7

 The problem with assessing WS is we don't know the animal stat blocks that will be available. Using the 2014 MM/PHB there are hardly any Beasts of CR 3+ and those that are have such low chances to hit that extra damage on a hit is irrelevant because you're only going to hit once per combat if you're lucky. So in tier 3 & 4 no druid will be making attacks in WS form, your only viable option will be concentrating on Conjure Animals and using your WS form to grapple & shove enemies into your Conjure Animals area so that the Conjure Animals can attack it. At level 10, your CR 3 beasts typically have one attack per action with a +6 to hit and minimal options to gain advantage (no WM equivalents) vs a martial character at these levels have +9 to hit and at least 2 attacks per turn even without magical weapons. 

 

 And that is when players and DMs should work together to come up with a solution rather than strictly adhering to RAW. Homebrew is encouraged in the rules afterall. Various solutions could include using a Druid's own proficiency bonus instead of the beasts, using their Wisdom modifier on top of the beasts attack roll (because WS is still magic, so it should add the spellcasting modifier) or creating a new cantrip/editing shillelagh to work on WS attacks as well. A DM that refuses to work with a player on matters like this isn't one that's worth playing with in my opinion.

 My frustration comes from the fact that there is an obvious and streamlined solution: the Ranger Beastmaster Companion. Just like WS the Ranger can spend 1 spell slot to resurrect it at full HP, it has attacks rolls, damage rolls, and has AC and HP that scale with your character level. 

They could have left baseline WS alone with all its exploration shenanigan fun, and simply changed "Combat Wildshape" to give the ability to transform into those statblocks instead of increasing the CR that they can transform into and everything would have been fine. You get a natural balancing because the Ranger can only resurrect the companion outside of combat where as the Moon Druid can refresh the transformation mid combat in exchange for the Ranger getting to command the beast as a BA vs the Moon Druid having to use their action to attack as the beast.

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AC of you or the beast what ever higher . I mean it would be like 99.9999% chance 13+wis would be higher than the beast AC and when I talked I talked about the moon wildshape because it is the druid hat is focused on wildshape ... duh

 Circle of the Moon are the ones completely based around Wildshape, but it's still a massive part of any Druid character surely 

Wildshape is the Druid's USP really. In the last few editions at least. It's one of the things that stops them just being a "Nature Cleric" 

People are certainly free to say they prefer this balance of abilities for Druids, but I don't see how anyone can claim WotC haven't nerfed Wildshape (less so for Moonies, but still even for them). Again, you may prefer having a generally more limited Wildshape in return for other class abilities. But I think most people who play Druids consider Wildshape to be a central part of that experience so I'm not surprised they see this new version as an overall nerf of the class 

I agree false flag operation (or gaslighting for that matter) is a bit strong though :D 

 It's not really a nerf though. Both damage and AC are buffed, number of uses is buffed and if you're willing to expend spell slots for wild shape uses then the potential extra hp you can gain is also buffed (though you get less of it per wild shape use). Due to the way the hp works it also makes rarely used wild shape options more viable. About the only actual nerf is losing Elemental Wild Shapes, and you still get elemental damage at level 7

 The problem with assessing WS is we don't know the animal stat blocks that will be available. Using the 2014 MM/PHB there are hardly any Beasts of CR 3+ and those that are have such low chances to hit that extra damage on a hit is irrelevant because you're only going to hit once per combat if you're lucky. So in tier 3 & 4 no druid will be making attacks in WS form, your only viable option will be concentrating on Conjure Animals and using your WS form to grapple & shove enemies into your Conjure Animals area so that the Conjure Animals can attack it. At level 10, your CR 3 beasts typically have one attack per action with a +6 to hit and minimal options to gain advantage (no WM equivalents) vs a martial character at these levels have +9 to hit and at least 2 attacks per turn even without magical weapons. 

 

 And that is when players and DMs should work together to come up with a solution rather than strictly adhering to RAW. Homebrew is encouraged in the rules afterall. Various solutions could include using a Druid's own proficiency bonus instead of the beasts, using their Wisdom modifier on top of the beasts attack roll (because WS is still magic, so it should add the spellcasting modifier) or creating a new cantrip/editing shillelagh to work on WS attacks as well. A DM that refuses to work with a player on matters like this isn't one that's worth playing with in my opinion.

 My frustration comes from the fact that there is an obvious and streamlined solution: the Ranger Beastmaster Companion. Just like WS the Ranger can spend 1 spell slot to resurrect it at full HP, it has attacks rolls, damage rolls, and has AC and HP that scale with your character level. 

They could have left baseline WS alone with all its exploration shenanigan fun, and simply changed "Combat Wildshape" to give the ability to transform into those statblocks instead of increasing the CR that they can transform into and everything would have been fine. You get a natural balancing because the Ranger can only resurrect the companion outside of combat where as the Moon Druid can refresh the transformation mid combat in exchange for the Ranger getting to command the beast as a BA vs the Moon Druid having to use their action to attack as the beast.

 Personally, I think a simpler solution is to allow a Moon Druid to use their own Proficieny Bonus instead of the beasts for attack rolls. Proficiency Bonus is included in beast stat blocks on DnDBeyond and in Monsters of the Multiverse, so that's the design direction they're going in, with making the beasts PB easy enough to find without the player or DM having to figure it out based on their STR and attack bonus.

So are we getting a full Druid article a la "2024 Bard vs. 2014 Bard" or is this it?

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

 It's not really a nerf though. Both damage and AC are buffed, number of uses is buffed and if you're willing to expend spell slots for wild shape uses then the potential extra hp you can gain is also buffed (though you get less of it per wild shape use). Due to the way the hp works it also makes rarely used wild shape options more viable. About the only actual nerf is losing Elemental Wild Shapes, and you still get elemental damage at level 7

 That's Moon Druids though isn't it? Not the Druid class in general. 

Moon Druids are the Wild Shape experts but that doesn't mean their version of it should be the "standard" we look to for Wild Shape. It should be a useful and impactful ability across the board for any Druid character 

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

 And that is when players and DMs should work together to come up with a solution rather than strictly adhering to RAW. Homebrew is encouraged in the rules afterall. Various solutions could include using a Druid's own proficiency bonus instead of the beasts, using their Wisdom modifier on top of the beasts attack roll (because WS is still magic, so it should add the spellcasting modifier) or creating a new cantrip/editing shillelagh to work on WS attacks as well. A DM that refuses to work with a player on matters like this isn't one that's worth playing with in my opinion.

Sure we can all homebrew stuff. But the basic character classes should work without needing that. Otherwise what's the point of doing a revised version of them?

I dunno, the whole thing feels weird to me. I'm not against change but it's like it's been redesigned by people who don't play as Druids and don't know why people like playing that class

Quote from welteislehre >>

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

 It's not really a nerf though. Both damage and AC are buffed, number of uses is buffed and if you're willing to expend spell slots for wild shape uses then the potential extra hp you can gain is also buffed (though you get less of it per wild shape use). Due to the way the hp works it also makes rarely used wild shape options more viable. About the only actual nerf is losing Elemental Wild Shapes, and you still get elemental damage at level 7

 That's Moon Druids though isn't it? Not the Druid class in general. 

Moon Druids are the Wild Shape experts but that doesn't mean their version of it should be the "standard" we look to for Wild Shape. It should be a useful and impactful ability across the board for any Druid character 

 Moon Druids get Lunar form, but Wild Resurgence and Primal Strike (what gives elemental damage) are both part of the base class. The AC buff is Moon Druid specific I think.

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 And that is when players and DMs should work together to come up with a solution rather than strictly adhering to RAW. Homebrew is encouraged in the rules afterall. Various solutions could include using a Druid's own proficiency bonus instead of the beasts, using their Wisdom modifier on top of the beasts attack roll (because WS is still magic, so it should add the spellcasting modifier) or creating a new cantrip/editing shillelagh to work on WS attacks as well. A DM that refuses to work with a player on matters like this isn't one that's worth playing with in my opinion.

 

Sure we can all homebrew stuff. But the basic character classes should work without needing that. Otherwise what's the point of doing a revised version of them?

I dunno, the whole thing feels weird to me. I'm not against change but it's like it's been redesigned by people who don't play as Druids and don't know why people like playing that class

 

 Again, homebrew is literally something that is allowed for in the rules. If you want a non homebrew option ask your DM if you can get the hide of the feral guardian. The armors effects carry over to wildshape and offer up to a +3 on attack rolls (it levels up with a player character) while it is equipped (including in wild shape, even if the equipment is merged into your form) or the insignia of claws which offers a +1.

Whoever agreed to this "balance" change has never understood why people enjoy playing moon druid or they just really hate druid players because these changes killed moon druid, it's dead, gone, literally obliterated from orbit and then the "balance team" spat on it's corpse and expect us to thank them. 

What a ******* joke...

Agreed.  Druid as a whole is still viable, it IS a full spell caster which ranks it above martials in terms of versaltility and power, but much weaker when one of its iconic features is shot in the head.  And it was an unnecessary change.

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 It's not really a nerf though. Both damage and AC are buffed, number of uses is buffed and if you're willing to expend spell slots for wild shape uses then the potential extra hp you can gain is also buffed (though you get less of it per wild shape use). Due to the way the hp works it also makes rarely used wild shape options more viable. About the only actual nerf is losing Elemental Wild Shapes, and you still get elemental damage at level 7

 

Elemental Wild Shapes were nothing to do with getting elemental damage - 3/4 of them just do bludgeoning damage. It was about getting an actually viable form for that level. The elementals are each CR 5, which is a massive step up from the CR 3 beasts you can otherwise WS into at this level. Elemental WS gave you a +2 to hit, an extra attack, and a new movement type over the best Beast available to you at the same level.

The extra HP isn't that impressive, it's not even one round of attacks from an enemy of a CR equal to your level. So you have to use WS every single turn if you want to be a frontliner as a Moon Druid. Damage has been buffed for level 7-9, it is the same or worse for all other levels. The changes to HP & AC don't really make a difference to how you choose WS forms, as beasts are pretty balanced w.r.t. HP & AC with low AC == high HP. Brown Bear / Polar Bear is still obviously the best combat choice from level 3-8, and now there are no viable forms for level 9+.

The changes don't solve any of the problems they set out to solve. Moon Druid is still kind busted at level 3&4 (though martial characters have been boosted at these levels due to Weapon Mastery so the gap isn't as large), a balanced melee tank for level 5-6, then mediocre gish for level 7-8, then just a full spellcaster who gives up on WSing in boss combat at level 9+ (WS is still viable for Medium/Easy fights).

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 It's not really a nerf though. Both damage and AC are buffed, number of uses is buffed and if you're willing to expend spell slots for wild shape uses then the potential extra hp you can gain is also buffed (though you get less of it per wild shape use). Due to the way the hp works it also makes rarely used wild shape options more viable. About the only actual nerf is losing Elemental Wild Shapes, and you still get elemental damage at level 7

 

Elemental Wild Shapes were nothing to do with getting elemental damage - 3/4 of them just do bludgeoning damage. It was about getting an actually viable form for that level. The elementals are each CR 5, which is a massive step up from the CR 3 beasts you can otherwise WS into at this level. Elemental WS gave you a +2 to hit, an extra attack, and a new movement type over the best Beast available to you at the same level.

The extra HP isn't that impressive, it's not even one round of attacks from an enemy of a CR equal to your level. So you have to use WS every single turn if you want to be a frontliner as a Moon Druid. Damage has been buffed for level 7-9, it is the same or worse for all other levels. The changes to HP & AC don't really make a difference to how you choose WS forms, as beasts are pretty balanced w.r.t. HP & AC with low AC == high HP. Brown Bear / Polar Bear is still obviously the best combat choice from level 3-8, and now there are no viable forms for level 9+.

The changes don't solve any of the problems they set out to solve. Moon Druid is still kind busted at level 3&4 (though martial characters have been boosted at these levels due to Weapon Mastery so the gap isn't as large), a balanced melee tank for level 5-6, then mediocre gish for level 7-8, then just a full spellcaster who gives up on WSing in boss combat at level 9+ (WS is still viable for Medium/Easy fights).

 Level 10 the moon druid gets moonlight step, a new way to move around the battlefield that is reminiscent of elementals. At level 10 a moon druid is getting +30 temp HP per wild shape and has a minimum AC of 13+ WIS. Level 6 they can add WIS to CON saving throws, Level 7 they get Primal Strike (adds 1d8 of elemental damage), level 14 they get Lunar form (adds 2d10 radiant damage) and level 15 they get improved Primal Strike (adds an additional 1d8 of elemental damage). Literally the only potential issue with Moon Druids is their attack rolls and that may be solved by the rebalancing of the beast stat blocks

30 temp HP is still a huge nerf in that its still your HP and effects that do damage around TempHP will slice you.  The new WS is both silly, talking in WS, and underpowered.  I'd have liked a subclass that REALLY leaned into a shapeshifting and allowed to turn into monstrosities, dragons, elementals, etc.  Also, the Water Elemental might have done smashing damage, they could also just drown a *****.  Ya, there is no defending this....

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 It's not really a nerf though. Both damage and AC are buffed, number of uses is buffed and if you're willing to expend spell slots for wild shape uses then the potential extra hp you can gain is also buffed (though you get less of it per wild shape use). Due to the way the hp works it also makes rarely used wild shape options more viable. About the only actual nerf is losing Elemental Wild Shapes, and you still get elemental damage at level 7

 

Elemental Wild Shapes were nothing to do with getting elemental damage - 3/4 of them just do bludgeoning damage. It was about getting an actually viable form for that level. The elementals are each CR 5, which is a massive step up from the CR 3 beasts you can otherwise WS into at this level. Elemental WS gave you a +2 to hit, an extra attack, and a new movement type over the best Beast available to you at the same level.

The extra HP isn't that impressive, it's not even one round of attacks from an enemy of a CR equal to your level. So you have to use WS every single turn if you want to be a frontliner as a Moon Druid. Damage has been buffed for level 7-9, it is the same or worse for all other levels. The changes to HP & AC don't really make a difference to how you choose WS forms, as beasts are pretty balanced w.r.t. HP & AC with low AC == high HP. Brown Bear / Polar Bear is still obviously the best combat choice from level 3-8, and now there are no viable forms for level 9+.

The changes don't solve any of the problems they set out to solve. Moon Druid is still kind busted at level 3&4 (though martial characters have been boosted at these levels due to Weapon Mastery so the gap isn't as large), a balanced melee tank for level 5-6, then mediocre gish for level 7-8, then just a full spellcaster who gives up on WSing in boss combat at level 9+ (WS is still viable for Medium/Easy fights).

 Level 10 the moon druid gets moonlight step, a new way to move around the battlefield that is reminiscent of elementals. At level 10 a moon druid is getting +30 temp HP per wild shape and has a minimum AC of 13+ WIS. Level 6 they can add WIS to CON saving throws, Level 7 they get Primal Strike (adds 1d8 of elemental damage), level 14 they get Lunar form (adds 2d10 radiant damage) and level 15 they get improved Primal Strike (adds an additional 1d8 of elemental damage). Literally the only potential issue with Moon Druids is their attack rolls and that may be solved by the rebalancing of the beast stat blocks

 CR 3 beasts have 1 attack per turn and to hit modifiers in +6-+7 range. You can't "rebalance" around this because these creatures also have to be suitable for a party of level 3 adventurers to fight, so they cannot have a high chance to hit, nor more attacks per turn. It doesn't matter how many dice of damage you can add, if you have a 30% chance to hit the enemy.

The most telling thing to me, is that the Ranger Beastmaster's beast companion is more powerful as a combat animal than a Wild Shaping Moon Druid at higher levels - they get 5*level hit points, they get Wis + Proficiency to hit, they get 2 attacks per action at level 7, they get scaling damage thanks to adding proficiency bonus to the damage. Or alternatively, the creature you could summon as a Druid using Summon Fey or Summon Beast will be more powerful than your Wild Shape form. 

Summon Fey cast at 4th level : AC 16, 40 hit points, 2 attacks per turn dealing 2d6+7 damage each that use your spellcasting modifier to hit, bonus action 30 ft teleport with a rider every turn.

New text of Wild Shape (per a video that was showing off the full PHB on youtube) says that Druids gain all of the proficiencies of a beast, which allows them to use their own PB for attack rolls once it starts outpacing the PB provided by the beast stat blocks. This is one way of rebalancing WS.

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

New text of Wild Shape (per a video that was showing off the full PHB on youtube) says that Druids gain all of the proficiencies of a beast, which allows them to use their own PB for attack rolls once it starts outpacing the PB provided by the beast stat blocks. This is one way of rebalancing WS.

If that's what they meant, they really should have said so explicitly. Because that is not how I would have interpreted that phrase. Something like "The druid uses their proficiency bonus instead of the that of the beast for all d20 Tests where either they or the beast would add their proficiency bonus".

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

New text of Wild Shape (per a video that was showing off the full PHB on youtube) says that Druids gain all of the proficiencies of a beast, which allows them to use their own PB for attack rolls once it starts outpacing the PB provided by the beast stat blocks. This is one way of rebalancing WS.

If that's what they meant, they really should have said so explicitly. Because that is not how I would have interpreted that phrase. Something like "The druid uses their proficiency bonus instead of the that of the beast for all d20 Tests where either they or the beast would add their proficiency bonus".

 It's definitely a change from the previous version, seems clear enough to me. The next line of the text also explicitly tells you the only time you use the beast's modifiers is if they're higher than yours for skill and saving throws. Outside of those times you use your own modifiers, which would include your PB

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

New text of Wild Shape (per a video that was showing off the full PHB on youtube) says that Druids gain all of the proficiencies of a beast, which allows them to use their own PB for attack rolls once it starts outpacing the PB provided by the beast stat blocks. This is one way of rebalancing WS.

If that's what they meant, they really should have said so explicitly. Because that is not how I would have interpreted that phrase. Something like "The druid uses their proficiency bonus instead of the that of the beast for all d20 Tests where either they or the beast would add their proficiency bonus".

 It's definitely a change from the previous version, seems clear enough to me. The next line of the text also explicitly tells you the only time you use the beast's modifiers is if they're higher than yours for skill and saving throws. Outside of those times you use your own modifiers, which would include your PB

 That's the same language as in WS now, which is generally interpreted to not include attack rolls.

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

New text of Wild Shape (per a video that was showing off the full PHB on youtube) says that Druids gain all of the proficiencies of a beast, which allows them to use their own PB for attack rolls once it starts outpacing the PB provided by the beast stat blocks. This is one way of rebalancing WS.

If that's what they meant, they really should have said so explicitly. Because that is not how I would have interpreted that phrase. Something like "The druid uses their proficiency bonus instead of the that of the beast for all d20 Tests where either they or the beast would add their proficiency bonus".

 It's definitely a change from the previous version, seems clear enough to me. The next line of the text also explicitly tells you the only time you use the beast's modifiers is if they're higher than yours for skill and saving throws. Outside of those times you use your own modifiers, which would include your PB

 That's the same language as in WS now, which is generally interpreted to not include attack rolls.

 It's actually not.

2014 version states:

Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature’s bonus instead of yours. If the creature has any legendary or lair actions, you can’t use them.

2024 version states:

Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast's stat block, but you retain your creature type, Hit Points, Hit Point Dice, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores, class features, languages and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature. If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast's stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block.

Bolded the pertinent parts but 2014 only grants you the skill and saving throw proficiencies of the beast, 2024 grants you all proficiencies of the beast (simply due to a very minor rewording, the second half of the sentence no longer specifically refers back to skill and saving throw proficiencies). Since you now have proficiency with the beast's attacks you can add your PB to attack rolls (Player PB + Beast STR) via the general combat rules regarding attack rolls.

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

2024 version states:

Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast's stat block, but you retain your creature type, Hit Points, Hit Point Dice, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores, class features, languages and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature. If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast's stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block.

The highlighted text clearly implies you don't swap your proficiency bonus for the creature's proficiency bonus when determining the modifier for stuff the creature is proficient in. 

You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them

You use your proficiency bonus for stuff you are proficient in, it does not say you use your proficiency bonus for things the beast is proficient in.

If they intended you to replace the beast's proficiency bonus with your own for attacks, skills and saves they would have said so explicitly. They didn't. The only difference you are highlighting in 2014 vs 2024 language is they expanded "those" to repeat what "those" refers to. The meaning of the two sentences is identical. "those" in 2014 clearly refers to "the proficiencies" mentioned earlier in the sentence.

Quote from Agilemind >>

Quote from Fenrys87 >>

2024 version states:

Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast's stat block, but you retain your creature type, Hit Points, Hit Point Dice, Intelligence, Wisdom and Charisma scores, class features, languages and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature. If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast's stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block.

The highlighted text clearly implies you don't swap your proficiency bonus for the creature's proficiency bonus when determining the modifier for stuff the creature is proficient in. 

You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them

You use your proficiency bonus for stuff you are proficient in, it does not say you use your proficiency bonus for things the beast is proficient in.

If they intended you to replace the beast's proficiency bonus with your own for attacks, skills and saves they would have said so explicitly. They didn't. The only difference you are highlighting in 2014 vs 2024 language is they expanded "those" to repeat what "those" refers to. The meaning of the two sentences is identical. "those" in 2014 clearly refers to "the proficiencies" mentioned earlier in the sentence.

 You also retain your class features, Proficiency Bonus is listed in the table under Druid Features, 2nd column in. Yes, it's not in the class features column of the Druid Features table, however by nature of being on the Druid Features table it is technically a class feature, which means you do in fact retain your own Proficiency Bonus for things that you are proficient in and since you gain all of the proficiencies of the beast (again, the rewording means that it's not calling back to skill and saving throw proficiencies, you get all proficiencies of the beast) then you use your own bonus for attacks.