Monstrous Compendium Vol. 1: Spelljammer Creatures
Frozen Sick
D&D Beyond Basic Rules
Basic Rules (2014)
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2024 rules for hide say an enemy has to roll a dc 15 stealth check and that enemy is then hidden until someone "finds" them. If you are on the same battlefield, can you rely on your pasive perception to prevent thr enemy from being hidden? Does the enemy attampting to hide have to beat a dc 15 AND passive perceptions of all enemies in the area?
I assume thats the case, but someone very forcefully said passive perception is only available when the dm wants to use it. I assume to do things like ambush the players with out asking for a perception check.
No one knows, my friend. No one knows.
But I bet you will get some very confident answers on both sides.
I'm not an expert on the 2024 rules, but isn't it that to successfully hide you MUST get at least a 15 on your hide check, and then whatever number you actually rolled (15, 18, 35, etc) is what is used against Passive Perception and active Search checks?
I was under the impression that you could not successfully hide with a 14, even if the enemy's passive perception was a 12. You need a minimum of 15 to hide, then their perception and Search checks are compared to the actual number you rolled.
Or am I way off?
The rules are clear, you have to stealth check get a 15 or higher, as a minimum to hide.
The question is, if you stealth check and roll a 16, but there is an enemy nearby with a passive perception of 20, does your stealth check fail because Pasive Perception is an "always on" sort of thing?
I get the strong impression that most people think passive perception is always on. But the rules are so ambiguous that im just asking...
Honestly, the 2024 perception rules are enough of a disaster that I mostly don't care what they say, but other than legacy from 2014 there's no real reason to think it serves as an effective target number for stealth in 2024.
Yes, this is correct. The DC 15 success allows you to Hide, but also you "stop being hidden immediately" if an enemy finds you. Passive Perception is one way that this can occur since passive perception "is a score that reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check."
It's interesting to note that this word "notice" is actually used pretty consistently by the authors for all of the related mechanics:
Wisdom: "notice things in the environment . . ."
Perception: "notice something that's easy to miss"
Stealth: "escape notice"
Some equipment can help someone to "perceive things they wouldn't otherwise notice"
"Some adventuring tasks—such as noticing danger . . . are affected by sight . . . "
From the DMG:
If we go back to the 2014 rules, there were some rules regarding exploration (but not combat) which explicitly made some exceptions to the "always on" nature of Passive Perception. While exploring, characters were meant to declare their "activity while traveling". The main recommended activity -- the default -- was called "noticing threats". This basically "turned on" your passive perception while traveling which was explicitly used to see if anyone "notices a hidden threat". Similar language was also used to adjudicate Surprise during combat. But the point is, there were also other activities that you could engage while traveling which would essentially "turn off" your Passive Perception -- these included "navigate", "draw a map", "tracking", "foraging". At that time, it wasn't fully clear whether or not an activity such as "looking out for traps" was included within the "noticing threats" activity or if that was a separate activity.
Pretty much all of the above mechanics were eliminated from the 2024 rules, leaving us with a Passive Perception ability that is just "always on". The only potentially explicit exception to this which has survived the migration to the 2024 rules are when the DM determines that Marching Order is important: "A marching order makes it easier to determine which characters are affected by traps, which ones can spot hidden enemies, and which ones are the closest to those enemies if a fight breaks out." But again, this would be more of an exploration rule which might affect something like combat Surprise, but it's really not a "during combat" rule.
This is an unfortunate misconception that stems from misinterpreting some of the explanations that are given in the DMG:
In this text, the first paragraph is comparing against the other situation where neither side is trying to be stealthy which results in creatures that "automatically notice each other". In contrast, when a creature is hidden, it's never trivial to notice them -- it requires some decent perception. But it's never impossible either -- with good enough perception they can be noticed. Now, it turns out that that paragraph is actually incorrectly written -- a character can never "try" an ability check. To "try" to notice a hidden creature, what the character CAN do is to perform a Search action. Then, if necessary, the DM will ask for the Perception check in order to adjudicate the result of that action.
The second paragraph is basically saying that sometimes the character isn't actually searching for anything. You don't ask for an active roll in that case because the active roll is for when they actively search. Instead, use the Passive Perception score to see if the character notices the thing in question without actively searching for it. Sure, it could have been written better just like the first paragraph could have been written better. But that's what is going on there.
These rules are NOT saying that the DM has the option to use these rules if he feels like it. Well, that's always true of course but then we aren't talking about RAW at that point.
Keep in mind that all ability checks in the game (active and passive) are asked for by the DM. The player does not ask to make a check. The player describes their action, and the DM might ask for a check to help adjudicate the result of that action. This goes for both active and passive checks. This does NOT mean that a DM can ignore passive checks if he feels like it. It's part of the mechanics for running the game. (Particularly for Passive Perception which is a core mechanic that is included in every monster stat block in the game. The DMG does imply that using other passive checks are very situational and somewhat optional.) When the player declares an action for his character that has an unknown consequence, the DM asks for an active check. If the player's character passively / unknowingly enters a situation that has an unknown consequence, the DM uses passive checks which don't require the player to do anything. This gameplay rhythm and mechanic is reinforced all over the place in the rule books.
How I run it yes. How the rules seem to be phrased, no. I do not think its really clear either way, just RAW wise it leans more towards no imo.
There is some logic to it as without a special feature you have to use an action to hide so requiring an action to find seems a fair counter. But I find the 2024 rules clumsier than the 2014 rules so i pretty much just use those. They were not perfect but they were more functional.
So, i think the rules say Hide is unaffected by Passive perception, that its a dc 15 stealth, and to find someone yku have to take thr search action.
HOWEVER, passive perception will not die, because taking it away is a debuff to a lot of players, a loss of power, and power creep is a thing .
THEREFORE, ive accepted passive perceptiin is always on...
AND YET i would like to see the rule that supports it being always on, all thr time, for all instances of possible perception.
UNTIL THEN, i think if pasive perception is always on, i think it should get a debuff during combat....
According to the rules, you only need a 15 to hide.
Passive perception is always on.
But that does not mean that it's always applicable, and you're auto-found by anything with a passive perception higher than your roll. That's ultimately a DM call.
Passive Perception is not always on, it is used when the DM doesn't want to call for a roll, or the character has no reason to be actively searching.
In combat, there are enough distractions that if someone wants to look for something, they need to search for it. Passive Perception was never meant to be a floor akin to a Rogue's Reliable Talent (where they treat any roll lower than x as x).
If you need a real life example: Ever lose something and spent a lot of time looking for it before realizing it's sitting right out in the open and has been the whole time? That's an example of failing a search roll. Doesn't matter what the passive perception was, it was an active search, so a search roll overrides it.
Another example is the saying, "can't find the forest for the trees." Focusing one's attention on too minute of a detail and missing the bigger picture.
The "Finding Hidden Objects" section of the Player's Handbook makes no mention of Passive Perception, btw. It instead says, "the Dm typically asks you to make a Wisdom (perception) check..."
To Hide, the person hiding must roll at least a 15 on Stealth. Whatever their actual roll is (assuming 15 or higher), then becomes the DC for anyone making an active Search roll. An exception would be outside of combat, sneaking past a guard that is not on active alert - that might be a case where the DM may use the guard's passive perception (and may even apply disadvantage (-5) if the guard is tired or at the end of their shift).
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
This is exactly right. Passive Perception only applies in certain situations, and is not an "always on" ability that essentially gives you a minimum of 10 on your Perception checks. That is definitely NOT the intention of the rules.
If its a DM call, its not "always on"
If someone can give a 2024 rules-based explanation how passive perception is only by DM call, i would love the clarification.
The only defined use of passive perception in 2024 is in the rules for chases; as such, all other uses are a DM call.
If you have a 30 passive perception, you can notice a lot.
You presumably can notice somebody hiding in a bush.
But you probably can't notice somebody hiding completely behind a wall, even if they rolled only 15.
Your passive perception is always on, but you can still only detect the things you can detect.
Sometimes your DM will determine whether your character notices something without asking you to make a Wisdom (Perception) check; the DM uses your Passive Perception instead.
Passive Perception is a score that reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Also DM call in the DMG refers to using Passive Perception instead of asking players to make a check
Using Passive Perception. Sometimes, asking players to make Wisdom (Perception) checks for their characters tips them off that there's something they should be searching for, giving them a clue you'd rather they didn't have. In those circumstances, use characters' Passive Perception scores instead.
Seems fine to me. If you've ever been in the living room watching TV, with kids in the bedroom playing, and then all of a sudden they get really quiet, thats the time to go check to make sure theyre not drawing on the walls with permanent marker.
They were behind total cover, three rooms away, and yet passive perception kicked in....
And besides if the hidden character is behind total cover, they cant shoot their enemies, and enemies cant shoot them, so it doesnt matter. What matters is when the assasin who hid behind total cover comes to 3/4 cover or comes out in the open to attack you. At which point, if passive perceptiin is always on, that when you percieve them, and they cannot attack with advantage.
Even if a creature is behind total cover, they can still be found. What if their shadow extends out past the edge of cover, what if they're making a lot of noise.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
Nope. The rules do not actually say that -- this is a common misconception.
What the rules actually say is that you stop being hidden immediately when an enemy finds you. The rules also say that your Stealth check's total is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check. From those two statements, some people are incorrectly making an inference or drawing a conclusion that is not actually written.
Specifically, that text does NOT say that that is the only way to find a creature, and it does NOT say that finding a creature MUST be done in that manner. It IS saying that IF you do attempt to find a creature in that manner, that mechanically such a thing can be done as described.
It actually does mean exactly that unless there is some specific circumstance that is hindering your senses such as having the blinded and deafened conditions or you are deafened while looking around in Dim Light without Darkvision or there is some issue related to the Marching Order and so on.
^ This is false.
This is incorrect.
In the 2014 rules, the hiding rules and the surprise rules explicitly call out passive perception to be used in exactly this manner. Whenever this original intent is mentioned I will typically point out that there is a Youtube clip somewhere of JC specifically talking about using it as a "floor" for your active Perception checks in exactly this manner. I do not have the link to this saved anywhere myself but usually someone else will come along and post this clip in these threads when this exact argument arises. As such, the original RAI on that mechanic is quite clear.
The 2024 rules were written with a particular eye towards cleaning up and eliminating redundancy and unnecessary wordiness that existed in 2014 for more conciseness and brevity so that they could make room to add new content. So now it can take a bit more hunting around to find the answers, but as it turns out this aspect of Passive Perception has not actually changed from the 2014 rules. Perception is used to notice things and as a subcategory Passive Perception is used to notice things passively. It's the same skill. One is just happening automatically while your normal senses are functioning normally. The active version happens when you actively direct and focus those senses intentionally in an attempt to accomplish something. As such, there is no such thing as something that can be actively searched for that cannot be passively found. This is clear from the text that is written about the mechanics of the Search action, the Perception skill and the Passive Perception mechanic. It is necessary to read all of those rules together to get the full picture of how it works instead of how things were written in 2014 where all of these were mentioned in multiple places unnecessarily.
As for the comparison to Reliable Talent -- it does function that way for this one thing because that's how your senses actually function. You don't need to be a Rogue to have normal use of your eyes and ears. It hardly steps on Reliable Talent anyway -- that feature provides this benefit for ALL of the rogue's proficient skills, not just Perception. That's pretty powerful.
Here is the key that is often missed: This then also becomes the DC for Passive Perception. The text for the Hide action does not have to explicitly mention this because this is already covered by rules that are written elsewhere -- that's a big part of the difference with the 2024 rules, the authors really make a point of not repeating themselves unnecessarily.
Any and all scenarios that involve setting a DC for Perception on an active search also sets that same DC for Passive Perception. We know that it works this way because of a combination of rules. First, the description of the Search action is that this is an attempt "to discern something that isn’t obvious" which could involve the skills of Insight, Medicine, Perception or Survival depending on the particular task being attempted. Specifically for Perception, the task is that we are trying to detect a "concealed creature or object". More specifically, the Perception skill applies when we are "Using a combination of senses, notice something that’s easy to miss". That description applies to the skill itself, whether that skill is being used within a Search or used passively. Lastly, the text tells us explicitly that "Passive Perception is a score that reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings. The DM uses this score when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check."
The important information is that the Search action and the Passive check both involve the same skill: Perception. As such, any Wisdom check where proficiency in Perception applies certainly applies to both active Perception checks and Passive Perception checks. In both cases, it's just an ability check which incorporates the skill. The difference is that the behavior of the creature which initiates the check differs and therefore the resulting mechanic for how to adjudicate the final result also differs. But the thing that's being detected can always be detected with the same level of difficulty by either method. The difficulty is a property of the thing being detected, not a property of the activity itself. So, for any hidden creature or object that has a certain difficulty of being found, it could be found passively which has no variation in ability level or it could be found actively which has the full variation of randomness for success or failure like any other active check in the game. This means that the DM should always check first if the thing is detected passively with no action required. If that fails AND the creature decides to actively search, then ask for the active check which provides an opportunity to sometimes (about half the time) outperform the result of the passive check. That's just how it works according to the rules.
This is incorrect. There are YouTube videos of the designers discussing these mechanics under the 2014 rules where this was indeed clearly the intent. These mechanics have not changed with the update to the 2024 rules.
It absolutely does NOT "only" apply in "certain situations". It is indeed "always on" since that's how the normal senses of sight and hearing function. Explicitly, Passive Perception is used "when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check" which "reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings".
This is incorrect.
Explicitly, Passive Perception is used "when determining whether a creature notices something without consciously making a Wisdom (Perception) check" which "reflects a creature’s general awareness of its surroundings".
Actually, in D&D 5e and 5.5e you can do exactly that. If the hidden thing in question is a creature, it can be detected via sight or hearing as detailed in the rules for Unseen Attackers and Targets. Not only that, but via hearing alone you can determine the exact location of the creature that is hiding completely behind a wall.
There are limits of course. The DMG has a quick and dirty table of recommended "audible distances". There is also the possibility of loud background noise causing disadvantage (DM's call) or having the deafened condition, for example.