At a bare minimum, you need 2 weapons with the Light and not with the 2 handed property. And one weapon needs the Nick property, though that leads to each of your turns being a little different as you swap. So to simplify, assume both weapons have nick. that means: either dagger(d4) or scimitar(d6)
LIGHT: When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage...
This is available to some classes at level 1 or 2, Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues
TURN: ACTION: dagger attack(+abmod to damage). second-weapon-light attack (no +abmod to damage) BonusAction: free
Two Weapon Fighting Style: When you make an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of that attack
This is available to Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers at level 1 or 2.
TURN: ACTION: dagger attack(+abmod to damage). second-weapon-light attack (+abmod to damage) BonusAction: free
Enhanced Dual Wielding. When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a weapon that has the Light property, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn with a different weapon ... You don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage
Prerequisites: General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
Note: this dual attack satisfies the two-weapon fighting style in that it's "an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property," therefore you can add abmod to damage
TURN: ACTION: dagger attack(+abmod to damage). second-weapon-light attack (+abmod to damage) BonusAction: dual-weapon-light-single-handed attack(+abmod to damage)
Note that the rules require that the weapon used for the initial attack (dagger) must be different from both the second-weapon-light attack and the dual-weapon-light-single-handed attack weapons, however both the the second-weapon-light attack and the dual-weapon-light-single-handed attack weapons can be the same weapon as long as it meets all the requirements: light, not 2 handed,
so, enough levels of Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger gets you 2 attacks ate level 2, and 3 attacks by level 4. and 4 attacks with ExtraAttack unlocked at level 5.
But we haven't even gotten to the crazy part. The crazy part is you can do all these attacks with 2 weapons using just one hand, leaving the other hand free for a shield or spellcasting focus or whatever.
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action
Note that the Action[Attack] Equipping and Unequpping weapons rules allows you to equip or dequip one weapon per attack you make during your ACTION, so you don't get an extra equip/deequip weapon change during your BonusAction.
player starts turn with a sheild and Dagger1 equipped.
action: attack w Dagger1
Free weapon stow/equip per attack:: stow Dagger1
Free weapon stow/equip per attack: equip Dagger 2
Action: Dagger2 light attack
BonusAction: Dagger2 Dual attack
You have one free object interaction left. But if you stow Dagger2, you don't have any actions left to draw Dagger1. Which leaves you unarmed for reactions such as OpportunityAttacks and leaves you in a different situation than when we started, meaning the second turn will use a different sequence. Also, if you have a dagger in one hand and a shield in another hand, you can't do things like open a door. So, either you use that free object interaction after you stow dagger1 and before you equip dagger 2, or you cannot use the free object interaction and repeat the same sequence turn after turn.
At this point, you stop your turn, ending the turn with Dagger2 in your one hand.
The weapon you wield at the start of your turn will alternate between dagger1 and dagger2, flipping every turn.
But by level 4. you can do 3 attacks with a single hand, swapping between 2 different weapons. Allowing you to have a shield in the other hand.
at level 5, "action: attack w Dagger1" becomes: "action: attack w Dagger1, ExtraAttack w Dagger1"
4 attacks with one hand at level 5.
That's why I call it Rosie the Riveter, running a rapid-fire riveter with just one hand.
Now, not every DM will allow all of this. The first issue is whether or not doing all the attacks with one hand is allowed. Part of this build relies on a feature called "Dual Wielding" and while the rules for that feat to not require a weapons to be in both hands, the name "Dual Wielding" does kind of imply that's how it works.
Talk to your DM before you spring this build on them.
≈=≈=====
There are a couple ways to really get the most damage here:
One: Rogue. Rogue doesn't get extra attack at level 5. They only get one regular attack per turn, therefore only one chance to hit and apply sneak attack damage. However, if you use a Rosie the Riveter Rogue build, you've got three attacks per turn to get a chance to hit, and if any one of those hit, and you qualify for sneak attack damage, you can apply the extra damage.
Two: Rosie the Riveter Ranger: Rangers get ExtraAttack at level 5. They also get quite a number of uses of the Hunter's Mark spell which adds a d6 per hit. And at level 5, you're making 4 attacks. So that's a possible extra 4d6 per turn of damage.
Three: Rosie the Riveter Rager (Barbarian): For this build, choose Strength based weapons (see above). When you rage, you add anywhere from 2 to 4 points per hit. And Barbarians get Extra Attack at level 5, so that's anywhere from 8 to 16 possible points of extra damage per turn, assuming each attack hits.
======
ETA: But is this good game design???
I do wonder if maybe 4 attacks per turn plus shield out paces 2 attavks with a big two handed weapon and not being able to use a shield. Seems a tad unfair? lets assume every build has an ability modifier of +5, so theyre probably level 8. And with a +5 abmod tohit, Lets assume a 75% chance to hit for wvery build.
Rosie the Rivetter Ranger (dex/dagger): first turn: bonus action cast hunters mark for +1d6 per hit. Action 3 attacks (attack, extra attack, light attack). 1d4+5+1d6=11 points per hit. 75% chance to hit = 8.25 averag dmg per attack. ×3 attacks = 24.75 dmg first turn. ×4=33 dmg every turn after that. And they get a shield
Bob, the Basic Barbarian: no shield, wielding a 2 handed weapon with the biggest weapon damage: a great sword, for 2d6 weapon damage per hit. And if he rages, he gets +3 rage damage per hit. 2d6+5+3 per hit, for an average of 15 per hit. ×75% chance to hit yields 11.25 pts dmg per attack. Bob only gets 2 attacks, so theyre averaging 22.5 points of damage per turn, every turn.
Rosie the Rivetter Ranger: 25dmg rnd1, 33 dmg per turn after that. Has a shield.
Bob the basic barbarian: 22.5 dmg per turn. No shield.
I dont know. Something about this doesnt feel right. Both are expending a resource to do this: hunters mark or rage, but Bob with his big 2 handed weapon and no shield is vastly outpaced by Rosie with her tiny daggers hot swapped while carrying a shield
And then if the ranger uses 2 scimitars instead, thats a d6 instead of d4 weapon dmg, meaning on average another 3 points of damage per turn
Weapon-switching mechanics have been loosened in 2024 specifically to allow this. It is meant to work with Weapon Mastery, allowing martials to switch weapons during their Attack action to benefit from another Weapon Mastery. While some DMs might not allow it because they simply don't want to take on the mental load of verifying that you can do what you want to do (which is understandable), your build doesn't really qualify as "shenanigans" in my opinion, since you're using these rules exactly as they are intended to be used. Like you said, check with your DM first. Don't start doing that for the first time in the middle of the sessions and expect them to just roll with it, especially if they're not used to it.
Weapon-switching mechanics have been loosened in 2024 specifically to allow this. It is meant to work with Weapon Mastery, allowing martials to switch weapons during their Attack action to benefit from another Weapon Mastery. While some DMs might not allow it because they simply don't want to take on the mental load of verifying that you can do what you want to do (which is understandable), your build doesn't really qualify as "shenanigans" in my opinion, since you're using these rules exactly as they are intended to be used. Like you said, check with your DM first. Don't start doing that for the first time in the middle of the sessions and expect them to just roll with it, especially if they're not used to it.
I dont mind the rules allowing martials to basically always use the weapon they want. One feee interacrion would basically force you to pick a singke wespon for an entire encounter..
And with the new weapon masteries, all those masteries dont do much good if you cant swap.
But the 2024 rules for rosie the riveter just rubs me the wrong way. The idea is the martial builds are combat trained in weapons and unlock the bigger, nastier, more damaging martial weapons. The classes that can only use simple weapons shouldnt be able.to do as much damage. Dual wielding 2 daggers used to be a way to let the class catch up with damage of the big toys at the expense of not having a shield.
But adding in 2 additional attacks AND allowing the swapping shenanigans feels like 4 hammer attacks plus rage dmg or hunters mark damage is just way more than some big nasty 2 handed weapon that prohibits using a shield and gets half as many attacks per turn, so it gets half the damage from hunters mark or rage damage. Doesnt feel like having proficiency in a massive 2 handed weapon is actually better than running around with light hammers, a shield, and hot swapping skills.
I added some math to the original post comparing a ranger using 4 dagger attacks per turn versus a barbarian using 2 great sword attacks per turn.
Rosie the Rivetter Ranger: 25dmg rnd1, 33 dmg per turn after that. Has a shield.
Bob the basic barbarian: 22.5 dmg per turn. 2 handed weapon so cant use shield.
This is a personal opinion, but to me, if a character gives up the shield to use the biggest nastiest hardest hitting weapon in the game, they should be able to do more damage than some peanut who is using a tiny little dagger AND uses hot swapping to also carry a shield.
It doesnt feel right to me that the dagger build is doing more damage than the great sword build. Which is why this feels like shenanigans.
There is something going on here thats like "action economy" but for number of attacks per turn? Dont know if there is a name for it.
Attack Economy?
Basically, 4 attacks with tiny daggers and a shield is mathematically better than 2 attacks with a big bruising 2 handed weapon and no shield.
Rosie does more damage per turn than Bob. And 4 attacks per turn means Rosie has a better chance of at least one attack landing every turn, which is handy for breaking concentrstion. Rosie also gets a shield.
Bob is using a massive weapon, so big that he cant use a shield, is more likely to get hit, and does less damage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
Now, not every DM will allow all of this. The first issue is whether or not doing all the attacks with one hand is allowed. Part of this build relies on a feature called "Dual Wielding" and while the rules for that feat to not require a weapons to be in both hands, the name "Dual Wielding" does kind of imply that's how it works.
The same logic, for what it's worth, applies to the "Two-Weapon Fighting" fighting style. So if you or your DM wants to include the trait names as further rules minutia, you can't get the Dual Wielding attack nor the Light/Nick ability mod damage, if you are trying to pull this off one-handed. Which is reasonably balanced, in my opinion.
I do think the names indicate the spirit of the rule, at least. So I wouldn't fault a DM for ruling that way.
Why would anyone build a martial that uses a heavy, 2 handed weapon with no shield, if running around with a couple of daggers AND a shield does so much more damage?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
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For this to work, you need to know which weapons have the light property and to not have the two-handed property. WEapons are listed here:
At a bare minimum, you need 2 weapons with the Light and not with the 2 handed property. And one weapon needs the Nick property, though that leads to each of your turns being a little different as you swap. So to simplify, assume both weapons have nick. that means: either dagger(d4) or scimitar(d6)
This is available at level 1. Just purchase a dagger or other weapon with the light property. Any class can use a dagger.
TURN: Action: dagger attack(+abmod to damage). Bonus Action: second-weapon-light attack (no abmod to damage)
This is available to some classes at level 1 or 2, Barbarians, Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, and Rogues
TURN: ACTION: dagger attack(+abmod to damage). second-weapon-light attack (no +abmod to damage) BonusAction: free
This is available to Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers at level 1 or 2.
TURN: ACTION: dagger attack(+abmod to damage). second-weapon-light attack (+abmod to damage) BonusAction: free
Prerequisites: General Feat (Prerequisite: Level 4+, Strength or Dexterity 13+)
Note: this dual attack satisfies the two-weapon fighting style in that it's "an extra attack as a result of using a weapon that has the Light property," therefore you can add abmod to damage
TURN: ACTION: dagger attack(+abmod to damage). second-weapon-light attack (+abmod to damage) BonusAction: dual-weapon-light-single-handed attack(+abmod to damage)
Note that the rules require that the weapon used for the initial attack (dagger) must be different from both the second-weapon-light attack and the dual-weapon-light-single-handed attack weapons, however both the the second-weapon-light attack and the dual-weapon-light-single-handed attack weapons can be the same weapon as long as it meets all the requirements: light, not 2 handed,
so, enough levels of Fighter, Paladin, and Ranger gets you 2 attacks ate level 2, and 3 attacks by level 4. and 4 attacks with ExtraAttack unlocked at level 5.
But we haven't even gotten to the crazy part. The crazy part is you can do all these attacks with 2 weapons using just one hand, leaving the other hand free for a shield or spellcasting focus or whatever.
Note that the Action[Attack] Equipping and Unequpping weapons rules allows you to equip or dequip one weapon per attack you make during your ACTION, so you don't get an extra equip/deequip weapon change during your BonusAction.
player starts turn with a sheild and Dagger1 equipped.
action: attack w Dagger1
Free weapon stow/equip per attack:: stow Dagger1
Free weapon stow/equip per attack: equip Dagger 2
Action: Dagger2 light attack
BonusAction: Dagger2 Dual attack
You have one free object interaction left. But if you stow Dagger2, you don't have any actions left to draw Dagger1. Which leaves you unarmed for reactions such as OpportunityAttacks and leaves you in a different situation than when we started, meaning the second turn will use a different sequence. Also, if you have a dagger in one hand and a shield in another hand, you can't do things like open a door. So, either you use that free object interaction after you stow dagger1 and before you equip dagger 2, or you cannot use the free object interaction and repeat the same sequence turn after turn.
At this point, you stop your turn, ending the turn with Dagger2 in your one hand.
The weapon you wield at the start of your turn will alternate between dagger1 and dagger2, flipping every turn.
But by level 4. you can do 3 attacks with a single hand, swapping between 2 different weapons. Allowing you to have a shield in the other hand.
at level 5, "action: attack w Dagger1" becomes: "action: attack w Dagger1, ExtraAttack w Dagger1"
4 attacks with one hand at level 5.
That's why I call it Rosie the Riveter, running a rapid-fire riveter with just one hand.
Now, not every DM will allow all of this. The first issue is whether or not doing all the attacks with one hand is allowed. Part of this build relies on a feature called "Dual Wielding" and while the rules for that feat to not require a weapons to be in both hands, the name "Dual Wielding" does kind of imply that's how it works.
Talk to your DM before you spring this build on them.
≈=≈=====
There are a couple ways to really get the most damage here:
One: Rogue. Rogue doesn't get extra attack at level 5. They only get one regular attack per turn, therefore only one chance to hit and apply sneak attack damage. However, if you use a Rosie the Riveter Rogue build, you've got three attacks per turn to get a chance to hit, and if any one of those hit, and you qualify for sneak attack damage, you can apply the extra damage.
Two: Rosie the Riveter Ranger: Rangers get ExtraAttack at level 5. They also get quite a number of uses of the Hunter's Mark spell which adds a d6 per hit. And at level 5, you're making 4 attacks. So that's a possible extra 4d6 per turn of damage.
Three: Rosie the Riveter Rager (Barbarian): For this build, choose Strength based weapons (see above). When you rage, you add anywhere from 2 to 4 points per hit. And Barbarians get Extra Attack at level 5, so that's anywhere from 8 to 16 possible points of extra damage per turn, assuming each attack hits.
======
ETA: But is this good game design???
I do wonder if maybe 4 attacks per turn plus shield out paces 2 attavks with a big two handed weapon and not being able to use a shield. Seems a tad unfair? lets assume every build has an ability modifier of +5, so theyre probably level 8. And with a +5 abmod tohit, Lets assume a 75% chance to hit for wvery build.
Rosie the Rivetter Ranger (dex/dagger): first turn: bonus action cast hunters mark for +1d6 per hit. Action 3 attacks (attack, extra attack, light attack). 1d4+5+1d6=11 points per hit. 75% chance to hit = 8.25 averag dmg per attack. ×3 attacks = 24.75 dmg first turn. ×4=33 dmg every turn after that. And they get a shield
Bob, the Basic Barbarian: no shield, wielding a 2 handed weapon with the biggest weapon damage: a great sword, for 2d6 weapon damage per hit. And if he rages, he gets +3 rage damage per hit. 2d6+5+3 per hit, for an average of 15 per hit. ×75% chance to hit yields 11.25 pts dmg per attack. Bob only gets 2 attacks, so theyre averaging 22.5 points of damage per turn, every turn.
Rosie the Rivetter Ranger: 25dmg rnd1, 33 dmg per turn after that. Has a shield.
Bob the basic barbarian: 22.5 dmg per turn. No shield.
I dont know. Something about this doesnt feel right. Both are expending a resource to do this: hunters mark or rage, but Bob with his big 2 handed weapon and no shield is vastly outpaced by Rosie with her tiny daggers hot swapped while carrying a shield
And then if the ranger uses 2 scimitars instead, thats a d6 instead of d4 weapon dmg, meaning on average another 3 points of damage per turn
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
Some DMs have more patience for weapon-juggling shenanigans than others.
pronouns: he/she/they
Weapon-switching mechanics have been loosened in 2024 specifically to allow this. It is meant to work with Weapon Mastery, allowing martials to switch weapons during their Attack action to benefit from another Weapon Mastery.
While some DMs might not allow it because they simply don't want to take on the mental load of verifying that you can do what you want to do (which is understandable), your build doesn't really qualify as "shenanigans" in my opinion, since you're using these rules exactly as they are intended to be used.
Like you said, check with your DM first. Don't start doing that for the first time in the middle of the sessions and expect them to just roll with it, especially if they're not used to it.
I dont mind the rules allowing martials to basically always use the weapon they want. One feee interacrion would basically force you to pick a singke wespon for an entire encounter..
And with the new weapon masteries, all those masteries dont do much good if you cant swap.
But the 2024 rules for rosie the riveter just rubs me the wrong way. The idea is the martial builds are combat trained in weapons and unlock the bigger, nastier, more damaging martial weapons. The classes that can only use simple weapons shouldnt be able.to do as much damage. Dual wielding 2 daggers used to be a way to let the class catch up with damage of the big toys at the expense of not having a shield.
But adding in 2 additional attacks AND allowing the swapping shenanigans feels like 4 hammer attacks plus rage dmg or hunters mark damage is just way more than some big nasty 2 handed weapon that prohibits using a shield and gets half as many attacks per turn, so it gets half the damage from hunters mark or rage damage. Doesnt feel like having proficiency in a massive 2 handed weapon is actually better than running around with light hammers, a shield, and hot swapping skills.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
I added some math to the original post comparing a ranger using 4 dagger attacks per turn versus a barbarian using 2 great sword attacks per turn.
Rosie the Rivetter Ranger: 25dmg rnd1, 33 dmg per turn after that. Has a shield.
Bob the basic barbarian: 22.5 dmg per turn. 2 handed weapon so cant use shield.
This is a personal opinion, but to me, if a character gives up the shield to use the biggest nastiest hardest hitting weapon in the game, they should be able to do more damage than some peanut who is using a tiny little dagger AND uses hot swapping to also carry a shield.
It doesnt feel right to me that the dagger build is doing more damage than the great sword build. Which is why this feels like shenanigans.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
There is something going on here thats like "action economy" but for number of attacks per turn? Dont know if there is a name for it.
Attack Economy?
Basically, 4 attacks with tiny daggers and a shield is mathematically better than 2 attacks with a big bruising 2 handed weapon and no shield.
Rosie does more damage per turn than Bob. And 4 attacks per turn means Rosie has a better chance of at least one attack landing every turn, which is handy for breaking concentrstion. Rosie also gets a shield.
Bob is using a massive weapon, so big that he cant use a shield, is more likely to get hit, and does less damage.
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire
The same logic, for what it's worth, applies to the "Two-Weapon Fighting" fighting style. So if you or your DM wants to include the trait names as further rules minutia, you can't get the Dual Wielding attack nor the Light/Nick ability mod damage, if you are trying to pull this off one-handed. Which is reasonably balanced, in my opinion.
I do think the names indicate the spirit of the rule, at least. So I wouldn't fault a DM for ruling that way.
Why would anyone build a martial that uses a heavy, 2 handed weapon with no shield, if running around with a couple of daggers AND a shield does so much more damage?
“Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.” — Voltaire