Because Wizards of the Coast crunched the numbers early on in 5e's development process and found that practically nobody played those levels. In fact, they even designed the edition around the concept of "sweet spots", which is why the XP totals for levels aren't linear but rather staggered in blocks to promote speedy levelling in certain brackets and slowing down in others. Most groups tended to stop at around 11th level IIRC.
So the market basically just isn't there for the content.
I think you can still find some neat fan-made adventures that cover that range of levels in the DM's Guild. Not the exact same as having an official module, but it's the closest you can get without coming up with your own adventures (which I perfectly understand, I would have very little time to invest in something like that myself).
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Im glad they did market research, in this case though I think there was bias due to previous editions. In 3.5 at least, high level play was rocket tag - whoever hit first, be it players or monsters, won the encounter due to save or die spells, high level effects, and iterative attacks. I think that’s why few people played beyond 11-13, because that’s when things started getting bananas.
As Jim on Web DM said, if you don’t want to support high level play, just cut those levels out of the classes and set the level cap to somewhere between 13 and 15 instead of 20.
I hope they will build out more epic tier stuff as time progresses and people get used to 5e because I think epic level stuff is super fun.
As Jim on Web DM said, if you don’t want to support high level play, just cut those levels out of the classes and set the level cap to somewhere between 13 and 15 instead of 20.
Agreed, doesn't really make sense that these levels exist if their is virtually 0 support for them.
I think things get a bit too crazy after level 15. The power levels are simply too big and the campaigns are just too hard to justify. It is hard to predict how players will react to certain situations and what kind of resources they will have at hand at this levels.
For exemple at level 17th players get the Wish spell. This alone can change a bunch of things that might happen in a campaign.
Probably it is just lack of the ability to control how magic will behave at those levels.
Well, they've given us lots of campaign books now that go to level 12-15. It would be nice to have at least one epic level campaign book where PCs fight some truly massive evil that really could change the world à la spellplague or sundering. Something involving the gods directly? A war between the heavens and hell? It would give them a chance to really shake up the realms.
Epic level play shouldn't be impossible, if there is a villain worthy and powerful enough. We need to think of it cinematicly.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I feel like at higher levels you need a very good DM who can think on his feat to counter players superpower abilities. An adventure book would be hard to balance and a nightmare for the DM to follow.
I'm hearing a lot of nay saying concerning higher level adventures. I can totally understand WOTC ignoring high level play in favor of low to mid level play; statistics and surveys have told them that that is what most people play. It makes sense. But let's not act like high level adventures haven't been done before. They exist, WOTC is just choosing not to do them for 5e.
I'm hearing a lot of nay saying concerning higher level adventures. I can totally understand WOTC ignoring high level play in favor of low to mid level play; statistics and surveys have told them that that is what most people play. It makes sense. But let's not act like high level adventures haven't been done before. They exist, WOTC is just choosing not to do them for 5e.
Well, more accurately, they are choosing not to publish them for a wider audience. There are some Epic-level adventures that get run for convention players, though they too are somewhat in the minority. The D&D 5e product line has really scaled back so as to not have to deal with a huge glut of splat books targeted to an ever shrinking niche audience. I'm guessing WotC has cede Epic-level adventures to people making content for the DM's Guild website and you really shouldn't expect them to put out a splat book for such things until the near end of 5e's life cycle.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
How it went down, from my point of view, is actually a bit of circular logic; not many people play high level because WotC doesn't put out enough high-level support, which is because not many people play high level.
Survey asked what level ranges people play in, answers said most people avoid the highest levels. WotC wrote 5th edition to be more sustainable than most prior editions at higher levels, gave people some time to play, and surveyed again asking what levels people end their campaigns at and what levels they want to end campaigns at (which could have shown people ending at lower levels than they wanted to, but didn't).
How it went down, from my point of view, is actually a bit of circular logic; not many people play high level because WotC doesn't put out enough high-level support, which is because not many people play high level.
Survey asked what level ranges people play in, answers said most people avoid the highest levels. WotC wrote 5th edition to be more sustainable than most prior editions at higher levels, gave people some time to play, and surveyed again asking what levels people end their campaigns at and what levels they want to end campaigns at (which could have shown people ending at lower levels than they wanted to, but didn't).
This was what I was driving at earlier - few people played epic level stuff because there wasn’t a lot of material and there’s the idea that it becomes too hard to manage high level magic and abilities.
I agree with your assessment about the “where did you end it” vs “where would you want to end it”. 5e is pretty balanced on the high end and doesn’t look to be the nightmare of rocket tag and campaign shattering effects that happened in previous editions. Wish is a good example of this.
It's not just the numbers. By the time you hit the epic tier, the campaign's world has taken a life of its own, even if it started as a published adventure. And if you're going to retire your character, wouldn't you rather their final adventure fulfill their specific goals rather than following a predefined adventure?
There's also the fact that the different tiers are inherently different genres; epic tier plays more like a superhero game than a fantasy adventure.
DMs tend to customize their campaigns more an more as their characters gain levels. It's hard to create high-level adventures that will serve tens of thousands of DMs. Also, our research shows that a relatively low percentage of campaigns make it to levels 16+. However, that doesn't rule out high-level content in the future.
Most con-only adventures are not published outside of the con, though some copies are given away as prizes. Then, of course the digital versions leak out there and are pirated and collected. Discussing where those exist isn't really a thing that is allowed here, but you can find some of the older convention adventures on the DM's Guild website I think.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
If they aren't going to publish any (many?) Epic tier adventures, then it might have been nice to have a chapter in XGtE with tips, ideas, and maybe some random tables for Epic Tier play.
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You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
If they aren't going to publish any (many?) Epic tier adventures, then it might have been nice to have a chapter in XGtE with tips, ideas, and maybe some random tables for Epic Tier play.
I think the problem is not much of mechanical scaling, something that tips and ideas might work for, but more of integration with each high-level campaign.
Don't get me wrong, it would be neat to have something like what you propose, but it might be difficult to find tips and ideas on content general enough to apply to any campaign, given that by lvl 15/16, supposing a continuous campaign, the world is very much consolidated, and the characters have been theoretically active part in shaping and modifying it. Something as "otherworldly menace" or a planar shift of the campaign as a followup are generic ideas that could fit in mostly any campaign, but not really worth a mention in a published book (imho).
One question, out of curiosity: Could you give me an example of a table that you think could be useful in Epic-level campaigns?
Well, in the DMG there are random roll tables for generating a villain, the villain's plot, etc. Similar tables for generating more epic-themed villains/plots could be helpful.
TL;DR:I am going to "level up" the existing adventures and string them together to epic levels.
What I am doing in my own campaign is modifying the existing adventures. We started with Lost Mine of Phandelver, which got the PCs to level 5. I plan to have them do Storm King's Thunder, and SKT specifically has a way to have LMoP PCs start the adventure at a certain point being level 5 from LMoP. However I also wanted to run Curse of Strahd, and believe that the best way to run a Ravenloft campaign is to surprise players with it. So though they knew all along they would be moving on to SKT, they didn't expect they'd have to defeat Strahd first.
They are now in Barovia, and have reached level 8. BY the time they finish CoS they likely will be level 9, so if/when they get back to Faerun and I can start SKT, I will be advancing many of the encounters and villains, thus "leveling up" to make it more challenging for their level. Once the complete SKT, if they still want to play I will have them transition into ToA, which I will again "level up" to "epic" proportions.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Well, in the DMG there are random roll tables for generating a villain, the villain's plot, etc. Similar tables for generating more epic-themed villains/plots could be helpful.
TL;DR:I am going to "level up" the existing adventures and string them together to epic levels.
What I am doing in my own campaign is modifying the existing adventures. We started with Lost Mine of Phandelver, which got the PCs to level 5. I plan to have them do Storm King's Thunder, and SKT specifically has a way to have LMoP PCs start the adventure at a certain point being level 5 from LMoP. However I also wanted to run Curse of Strahd, and believe that the best way to run a Ravenloft campaign is to surprise players with it. So though they knew all along they would be moving on to SKT, they didn't expect they'd have to defeat Strahd first.
They are now in Barovia, and have reached level 8. BY the time they finish CoS they likely will be level 9, so if/when they get back to Faerun and I can start SKT, I will be advancing many of the encounters and villains, thus "leveling up" to make it more challenging for their level. Once the complete SKT, if they still want to play I will have them transition into ToA, which I will again "level up" to "epic" proportions.
The levelling up of already published adventures is a very good idea, and it's actually what makes the most sense, even if, maybe, I would have kept Curse for after SKT (I am just a sucker [hahahaha] for vampires :P).
Regarding the tables... yes and no. They could be useful if you are running a game specifically for lvl15+, or if you are taking your characters to (or taking the threat from) a completely different plane/world/reality, as I feel that if you just dump in something world-threatening almost out of nowhere that the party has never heard of in 15 levels, it would feel kind of strange, I think. That being said, I had another look at the tables you mention from the DMG, and I'd argue they are generic enough to work as idea-fuel for lvl15+ adventures as well... I mean it can't really get much more epic than a guy wanting to ascend to godhood, imho.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
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Anyone else notice there is literally no content for character levels 15 and up?
Officially speaking of course, one can always create epic level stuff.
Am I wrong in this and missing something obvious?
Because Wizards of the Coast crunched the numbers early on in 5e's development process and found that practically nobody played those levels. In fact, they even designed the edition around the concept of "sweet spots", which is why the XP totals for levels aren't linear but rather staggered in blocks to promote speedy levelling in certain brackets and slowing down in others. Most groups tended to stop at around 11th level IIRC.
So the market basically just isn't there for the content.
I think you can still find some neat fan-made adventures that cover that range of levels in the DM's Guild. Not the exact same as having an official module, but it's the closest you can get without coming up with your own adventures (which I perfectly understand, I would have very little time to invest in something like that myself).
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Im glad they did market research, in this case though I think there was bias due to previous editions. In 3.5 at least, high level play was rocket tag - whoever hit first, be it players or monsters, won the encounter due to save or die spells, high level effects, and iterative attacks. I think that’s why few people played beyond 11-13, because that’s when things started getting bananas.
As Jim on Web DM said, if you don’t want to support high level play, just cut those levels out of the classes and set the level cap to somewhere between 13 and 15 instead of 20.
I hope they will build out more epic tier stuff as time progresses and people get used to 5e because I think epic level stuff is super fun.
I think things get a bit too crazy after level 15. The power levels are simply too big and the campaigns are just too hard to justify. It is hard to predict how players will react to certain situations and what kind of resources they will have at hand at this levels.
For exemple at level 17th players get the Wish spell. This alone can change a bunch of things that might happen in a campaign.
Probably it is just lack of the ability to control how magic will behave at those levels.
Well, they've given us lots of campaign books now that go to level 12-15. It would be nice to have at least one epic level campaign book where PCs fight some truly massive evil that really could change the world à la spellplague or sundering. Something involving the gods directly? A war between the heavens and hell? It would give them a chance to really shake up the realms.
Epic level play shouldn't be impossible, if there is a villain worthy and powerful enough. We need to think of it cinematicly.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
I feel like at higher levels you need a very good DM who can think on his feat to counter players superpower abilities. An adventure book would be hard to balance and a nightmare for the DM to follow.
I'm hearing a lot of nay saying concerning higher level adventures. I can totally understand WOTC ignoring high level play in favor of low to mid level play; statistics and surveys have told them that that is what most people play. It makes sense. But let's not act like high level adventures haven't been done before. They exist, WOTC is just choosing not to do them for 5e.
How it went down, from my point of view, is actually a bit of circular logic; not many people play high level because WotC doesn't put out enough high-level support, which is because not many people play high level.
Survey asked what level ranges people play in, answers said most people avoid the highest levels. WotC wrote 5th edition to be more sustainable than most prior editions at higher levels, gave people some time to play, and surveyed again asking what levels people end their campaigns at and what levels they want to end campaigns at (which could have shown people ending at lower levels than they wanted to, but didn't).
Here's a DM's Guild link to something that may interest people looking for Epic-level play.
It's not just the numbers. By the time you hit the epic tier, the campaign's world has taken a life of its own, even if it started as a published adventure. And if you're going to retire your character, wouldn't you rather their final adventure fulfill their specific goals rather than following a predefined adventure?
There's also the fact that the different tiers are inherently different genres; epic tier plays more like a superhero game than a fantasy adventure.
Chris Perkins addressed this on reddit:
Most con-only adventures are not published outside of the con, though some copies are given away as prizes. Then, of course the digital versions leak out there and are pirated and collected. Discussing where those exist isn't really a thing that is allowed here, but you can find some of the older convention adventures on the DM's Guild website I think.
If they aren't going to publish any (many?) Epic tier adventures, then it might have been nice to have a chapter in XGtE with tips, ideas, and maybe some random tables for Epic Tier play.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Well, in the DMG there are random roll tables for generating a villain, the villain's plot, etc. Similar tables for generating more epic-themed villains/plots could be helpful.
TL;DR: I am going to "level up" the existing adventures and string them together to epic levels.
What I am doing in my own campaign is modifying the existing adventures. We started with Lost Mine of Phandelver, which got the PCs to level 5. I plan to have them do Storm King's Thunder, and SKT specifically has a way to have LMoP PCs start the adventure at a certain point being level 5 from LMoP. However I also wanted to run Curse of Strahd, and believe that the best way to run a Ravenloft campaign is to surprise players with it. So though they knew all along they would be moving on to SKT, they didn't expect they'd have to defeat Strahd first.
They are now in Barovia, and have reached level 8. BY the time they finish CoS they likely will be level 9, so if/when they get back to Faerun and I can start SKT, I will be advancing many of the encounters and villains, thus "leveling up" to make it more challenging for their level. Once the complete SKT, if they still want to play I will have them transition into ToA, which I will again "level up" to "epic" proportions.
You don't OWN your books on DDB: WotC can change them any time. What do you think will happen when OneD&D comes out?
That being said, I had another look at the tables you mention from the DMG, and I'd argue they are generic enough to work as idea-fuel for lvl15+ adventures as well... I mean it can't really get much more epic than a guy wanting to ascend to godhood, imho.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games