Anyone played (or played alongside) a higher level thief that makes use of unique magic items through Use Magic Device?
Seems like such a fun subclass if you have a DM that is willing to work with you to create opportunities to steal magic items (especially those with deep cultural roots like the oathbow or dwarven thrower)
I'd love to hear some stories (or theory craft builds) about Thief Rogues with oddball item kits enabled by Use Magic Device.
Are you talking about 3rd edition or do you mean making a new subclass with an ability similar to the 3rd edition skill?
For 3rd edition I have no stories except for the wand of fireball that blew up in my face on the first rogue I made. He died and everyone in my high school dnd laughed at me for a while.
For a new subclass, my first thought is what could it do that Arcane Trickster couldn't. And I genuinely don't know cause I need to look up the limitations on what AT can do in relation to magic items vs. a full caster, and how an equivalent to 3rd editions UMD would fit in to all of that.
I'm currently more inclined to add a feat that grants some kind of ability to non-casters. It also reminded me of this feature I was working on a long time ago but never followed up on.
Dynamic Attunement
As an action, you may attempt to temporarily attune to an item in your possession without having to take a short rest. Roll a d20 and add your Proficiency Bonus. On a result of 20 or higher, you become attuned to the item for a number of rounds equal to your Proficiency Bonus or until the item leaves your possession. This does not count against the total number of items you can be attuned to at once. You cannot use this feature again until you finish a long rest.
Sorry I was not more clear. It's from the 13th level Thief Rogue ability that is also called Use Magic Device. Should have realized it could get confused with the skill from older additions.
You ignore all class, race, and level requirements on the use of magic items.
That is the meat of the ability. I was hoping to see some whacky builds and hear some cool stories. I think this ability could lend to some amazing RP and memorable moments.
When you search "Use Magic Device" in DDB, it does not give you the Thief ability as one of the top results. I have generally ignored the Thief. Not that I think it is bad, just its style is less appealing vs. what I want to with most of my Rogues, and as such COMPLETELY forgot they retooled that ability.
The first thing I found that made me laugh was the Armblade. Although it would probably be akin more to a glove or bracer, I immediately imagined a non-Warforged Rogue losing its hand and having a weapon magically grafted onto the stump.
Can't speak from personal experience, but I've heard positive things about the Thief's Fast Hands ability being used from dousing enemies with alchemists fire to acting as a medic with a healer's kit (+Healer feat). Can't say I've heard much in the way of positive anecdotes using magical items Use Magical Device, aside from complaints from Thief players that the rules don't allow them to drink/administer healing potions with their Cunning Action.
Hopefully we'll see UMD become more appealing with the release of Tasha's as it includes a higher number of class-locked magical items.
The thief subclass has always been one of my favorites thematically, but it's mechanical benefits are pretty minor or situational. Scaling walls and running on rooftops is great fun, but if your dm is easygoing on the details, than second-story work is basically useless. Feels bad :(
Not quite the same, but I play an assassin/ranger and after an epic fight we found a very nice Voyager Staff that only require «spellcasting ability» which the ranger gives. So now I run around with a short sword in ome hand and a staff allowing me to teleport and blink with the other.
A thief can use a staff of the magi and basically be a spellcaster :)
There's three types of items that routinely show up with restrictions - holy items, magic staves/rods/wands/robes, and scrolls, and a lot of which require attunement. So, while it sounds pretty awesome to have a rogue running around with a Archmage Robe and a Holy Avenger (short-sword version), I've found that Thieves will prefer to attune items that make them better at rogue-stuff, and let the party wiz/war/sor have the Archmage Robe.
Realistically, I've found that level 13 thieves end up with the group scrolls to use, especially if the group spellcasters can scribe scrolls. The spellcasters usually don't need them, and the rogue can double as a back up mage/healer if something happens to the main ones, or they need to save spell slots.
I agree with Mephista, and by that thinking at least it provides the group with an additional concentration-slot which in itself is rather great (even just a bless spell is formidable).
Its not a question of "strength." Its just that, for the most part, well.... The problem is that there's not a lot of "spicy" options to really take.
Scrolls can pretty much do whatever class-restricted staves, wands or rods do, if not sometimes better. Same with the Instruments of the Bards, and pretty much any spellcaster-focused object. And you're not going to be attacking with these items either, since they're not Sneak Attack-able.
9 times out of 10, if a Robe of the Archmagi (the only class-restricted robe) shows up, it'll be meant for the group sorcerer, wizard or warlock to wear. Most people won't take away their party member's Legendary magic items. Same with the Avengers and the group paladin; indeed, expect it to come in longsword form in the first place, something rogues can't use with Sneak Attack. Dwarven Throwers require dwarfhood, but given the lack of sneak attack potential, its not really a good thing to use on a thief. Talismans of Good/Evil could be used, but realistically can only use half the benefits (+2 to spell attack rolls is pretty worthless on a rogue).
So, we're mostly just dealing with redundancy with scrolls, incompatibility with Rogue features, or just better in someone else's hands.
incompatability with Rogue features is not always the death knell that most players make it out to be. now giving certain classes first dibs on that holy avenger or Robe of the Archmagi is always smart.
There are plenty of wands and things that can really add to a rogues arsenal that the thief can make use of. Something like the Wand of Fireballs unexpectedly in the hands of the thief rather than the Wizard makes for a good surprise attack for example.
The same can be said for staves. i don't know about others but if campaigns last to high level our group tends to pick up at least one more staff that casts spells or has magical functions than the party can actually reliably use at once and usually sits on some caster as a back up item in case the party needs it. The Thief is now an alternative place to put that staff. it might not get backstab damage from hitting with it but the extra spells off it can usually make up for that at the very least if not a little more.
Yeah turning the thief into a pocket blaster with a staff of fire or wand of fireballs is really appealing to me. Staves not working with sneak attack is fine as they're about the spells. Totally spaced on the dwarven thrower not working with sneak attack. Lol. An oathbow would be a similarly cool piece of loot to steal seeing as how revered by the elves they are.
Bit delayed but my highest level character I've ever played was a thief. What made him strong was
1) we got a staff of power, obviously good for a spell Caster but it helps thieves come online too. Bonus to AC, and a couple great spells. Super useful.
2) spell scrolls. Due to the wording a level 13 thief could use a ninth level spell scroll. No problem. A dm might make you roll still, just take expertise in arcana. Newer spells are useful too like steel wind strike. You also can get spell scrolls for non wizard spells. I always kept a revivfy spell scroll on me.
And finally 3) your still a rogue. You're the best scout in the game and can drop meteor swarm to boot.
The detrimental side of the class is how expensive it can become, but you're a thief so go steal something. If you can get a scribe wizard that could help a lot. You can also use items like an archmages robes or something else that requires a specific alignment but I never ran into that.
Tldr; thief + stealth + meteor swarm = a very fun game
Another belated response but people talking about rogue features but forgetting the haste spell. A hasted thief can use a powerful spell like fire ball or lightning bolt then still stab someone. And if he hasted himself then you're not even taking up a party concentration spot for a spell that is insane for thieves. Additionally, many rogues choose between close range and long range. If you're a close range and the enemy is far instead of having two great magic items for sneak attack you can misty step to get in range, or maybe vice versa. Plus a rogue with easy access to invisibility or disguise self. It's easy to see noncompaitibility between rogues and spells or other items but they help out big time in certain scenarios. No feature in the game should be a game breaking feature, they should all be occasionally useful. That's what this is. And the thing about the legendary item being taken isn't necessarily accurate because many of those are also alignment focused. Like the Robe of the archmagi so if you steal it from an evil Caster, the only person who can use it would be the thief.
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Anyone played (or played alongside) a higher level thief that makes use of unique magic items through Use Magic Device?
Seems like such a fun subclass if you have a DM that is willing to work with you to create opportunities to steal magic items (especially those with deep cultural roots like the oathbow or dwarven thrower)
I'd love to hear some stories (or theory craft builds) about Thief Rogues with oddball item kits enabled by Use Magic Device.
Are you talking about 3rd edition or do you mean making a new subclass with an ability similar to the 3rd edition skill?
For 3rd edition I have no stories except for the wand of fireball that blew up in my face on the first rogue I made. He died and everyone in my high school dnd laughed at me for a while.
For a new subclass, my first thought is what could it do that Arcane Trickster couldn't. And I genuinely don't know cause I need to look up the limitations on what AT can do in relation to magic items vs. a full caster, and how an equivalent to 3rd editions UMD would fit in to all of that.
I'm currently more inclined to add a feat that grants some kind of ability to non-casters. It also reminded me of this feature I was working on a long time ago but never followed up on.
EDIT: Or is this something from Tasha's?
Sorry I was not more clear. It's from the 13th level Thief Rogue ability that is also called Use Magic Device. Should have realized it could get confused with the skill from older additions.
That is the meat of the ability. I was hoping to see some whacky builds and hear some cool stories. I think this ability could lend to some amazing RP and memorable moments.
When you search "Use Magic Device" in DDB, it does not give you the Thief ability as one of the top results. I have generally ignored the Thief. Not that I think it is bad, just its style is less appealing vs. what I want to with most of my Rogues, and as such COMPLETELY forgot they retooled that ability.
The first thing I found that made me laugh was the Armblade. Although it would probably be akin more to a glove or bracer, I immediately imagined a non-Warforged Rogue losing its hand and having a weapon magically grafted onto the stump.
Can't speak from personal experience, but I've heard positive things about the Thief's Fast Hands ability being used from dousing enemies with alchemists fire to acting as a medic with a healer's kit (+Healer feat). Can't say I've heard much in the way of positive anecdotes using magical items Use Magical Device, aside from complaints from Thief players that the rules don't allow them to drink/administer healing potions with their Cunning Action.
Hopefully we'll see UMD become more appealing with the release of Tasha's as it includes a higher number of class-locked magical items.
Yeah Use Magic Device is one of those class abilities that I love that is attached to a subclass that does nothing for me otherwise.
Fast Hands interacting with items is cute, but does absolutely nothing for me.
The thief subclass has always been one of my favorites thematically, but it's mechanical benefits are pretty minor or situational. Scaling walls and running on rooftops is great fun, but if your dm is easygoing on the details, than second-story work is basically useless. Feels bad :(
Not quite the same, but I play an assassin/ranger and after an epic fight we found a very nice Voyager Staff that only require «spellcasting ability» which the ranger gives. So now I run around with a short sword in ome hand and a staff allowing me to teleport and blink with the other.
A thief can use a staff of the magi and basically be a spellcaster :)
I love martial builds that use cool staves thanks to a dip into some kind of spellcasting. Staff of Power monk anyone?
I'd love to play a high level thief that uses a staff of the woodlands for example. Stealing that from a druidic enclave...how deliciously corrupt.
There's three types of items that routinely show up with restrictions - holy items, magic staves/rods/wands/robes, and scrolls, and a lot of which require attunement. So, while it sounds pretty awesome to have a rogue running around with a Archmage Robe and a Holy Avenger (short-sword version), I've found that Thieves will prefer to attune items that make them better at rogue-stuff, and let the party wiz/war/sor have the Archmage Robe.
Realistically, I've found that level 13 thieves end up with the group scrolls to use, especially if the group spellcasters can scribe scrolls. The spellcasters usually don't need them, and the rogue can double as a back up mage/healer if something happens to the main ones, or they need to save spell slots.
I agree with Mephista, and by that thinking at least it provides the group with an additional concentration-slot which in itself is rather great (even just a bless spell is formidable).
I certainly understand the strength of doing that, but I sure was hoping there would be some tales of thieves that made spicier decisions.
Its not a question of "strength." Its just that, for the most part, well.... The problem is that there's not a lot of "spicy" options to really take.
Scrolls can pretty much do whatever class-restricted staves, wands or rods do, if not sometimes better. Same with the Instruments of the Bards, and pretty much any spellcaster-focused object. And you're not going to be attacking with these items either, since they're not Sneak Attack-able.
9 times out of 10, if a Robe of the Archmagi (the only class-restricted robe) shows up, it'll be meant for the group sorcerer, wizard or warlock to wear. Most people won't take away their party member's Legendary magic items. Same with the Avengers and the group paladin; indeed, expect it to come in longsword form in the first place, something rogues can't use with Sneak Attack. Dwarven Throwers require dwarfhood, but given the lack of sneak attack potential, its not really a good thing to use on a thief. Talismans of Good/Evil could be used, but realistically can only use half the benefits (+2 to spell attack rolls is pretty worthless on a rogue).
So, we're mostly just dealing with redundancy with scrolls, incompatibility with Rogue features, or just better in someone else's hands.
incompatability with Rogue features is not always the death knell that most players make it out to be. now giving certain classes first dibs on that holy avenger or Robe of the Archmagi is always smart.
There are plenty of wands and things that can really add to a rogues arsenal that the thief can make use of. Something like the Wand of Fireballs unexpectedly in the hands of the thief rather than the Wizard makes for a good surprise attack for example.
The same can be said for staves. i don't know about others but if campaigns last to high level our group tends to pick up at least one more staff that casts spells or has magical functions than the party can actually reliably use at once and usually sits on some caster as a back up item in case the party needs it. The Thief is now an alternative place to put that staff. it might not get backstab damage from hitting with it but the extra spells off it can usually make up for that at the very least if not a little more.
Yeah turning the thief into a pocket blaster with a staff of fire or wand of fireballs is really appealing to me. Staves not working with sneak attack is fine as they're about the spells. Totally spaced on the dwarven thrower not working with sneak attack. Lol. An oathbow would be a similarly cool piece of loot to steal seeing as how revered by the elves they are.
Bit delayed but my highest level character I've ever played was a thief. What made him strong was
1) we got a staff of power, obviously good for a spell Caster but it helps thieves come online too. Bonus to AC, and a couple great spells. Super useful.
2) spell scrolls. Due to the wording a level 13 thief could use a ninth level spell scroll. No problem. A dm might make you roll still, just take expertise in arcana. Newer spells are useful too like steel wind strike. You also can get spell scrolls for non wizard spells. I always kept a revivfy spell scroll on me.
And finally 3) your still a rogue. You're the best scout in the game and can drop meteor swarm to boot.
The detrimental side of the class is how expensive it can become, but you're a thief so go steal something. If you can get a scribe wizard that could help a lot. You can also use items like an archmages robes or something else that requires a specific alignment but I never ran into that.
Tldr; thief + stealth + meteor swarm = a very fun game
Another belated response but people talking about rogue features but forgetting the haste spell. A hasted thief can use a powerful spell like fire ball or lightning bolt then still stab someone. And if he hasted himself then you're not even taking up a party concentration spot for a spell that is insane for thieves. Additionally, many rogues choose between close range and long range. If you're a close range and the enemy is far instead of having two great magic items for sneak attack you can misty step to get in range, or maybe vice versa. Plus a rogue with easy access to invisibility or disguise self. It's easy to see noncompaitibility between rogues and spells or other items but they help out big time in certain scenarios. No feature in the game should be a game breaking feature, they should all be occasionally useful. That's what this is. And the thing about the legendary item being taken isn't necessarily accurate because many of those are also alignment focused. Like the Robe of the archmagi so if you steal it from an evil Caster, the only person who can use it would be the thief.