Claw: 3d6 + 12 ASI + 6 Rage (average 28.5 damage) <--- This is more than 2 attacks with a greatsword. And you're holding a shield!
You are not comparing apples to apples. You need to add in the alternate barb abilities.
To pick the two best comparisons:
Zealot Barb: Sword: 2d8 + 8 ASI + 4 Rage +d6 Divine Fury + 2 (lvl 5/2 rounded down) is 26.5 ave, and I still have my bonus action. At level 6, that ave goes to 27.5
Zerker: Sword: 3d8 + 12 ASI +6 Rage (average is 31.5). Granted, you now have exhaustion so it needs to be managed a bit.
I will add, all of the above assumes that you STILL DON'T HAVE A MAGIC WEAPON by level 5. If you instead have a +1 longsword by lvl 5 (an absolute given in AL, for example), then you of course add 2 and 3 average damage to the above examples.
Claw: 3d6 + 12 ASI + 6 Rage (average 28.5 damage) <--- This is more than 2 attacks with a greatsword. And you're holding a shield!
You are not comparing apples to apples. You need to add in the alternate barb abilities.
To pick the two best comparisons:
Zealot Barb: Sword: 2d8 + 8 ASI + 4 Rage +d6 Divine Fury + 2 (lvl 5/2 rounded down) is 26.5 ave, and I still have my bonus action. At level 6, that ave goes to 27.5
Zerker: Sword: 3d8 + 12 ASI +6 Rage (average is 31.5). Granted, you now have exhaustion so it needs to be managed a bit.
I will add, all of the above assumes that you STILL DON'T HAVE A MAGIC WEAPON by level 5. If you instead have a +1 longsword by lvl 5 (an absolute given in AL, for example), then you of course add 2 and 3 average damage to the above examples.
Yes, the Zealot adds more damage, but I was addressing people saying normal weapon attacks do more damage. I also acknowledged that magic weapons and feats and such can eventually make weapon attacks win. The claws also are not the only option or feature with this subclass. Totem is a great subclass that adds no damage at all.
Berserker is a horrible trap of a subclass. I don't think you fully appreciate how bad that exhaustion is. You just have to manage it a bit? First let's look the effects.
Level
Effect
1
Disadvantage on ability checks
2
Speed halved
3
Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws
4
Hit point maximum halved
5
Speed reduced to 0
6
Death
Now check this out - PHB: "Finishing a long rest reduces a creature's exhaustion level by 1, provided that the creature has also ingested some food and drink."
So if you Rage just twice, after you finish a long rest you *still* have 1 level of exhaustion. How many times are you going to use Frenzy on that day? It's more than a bit of management. I mean why take Polearm Master when you can be constantly trying to get rid of exhaustion instead?
Claw: 3d6 + 12 ASI + 6 Rage (average 28.5 damage) <--- This is more than 2 attacks with a greatsword. And you're holding a shield!
You are not comparing apples to apples. You need to add in the alternate barb abilities.
To pick the two best comparisons:
Zealot Barb: Sword: 2d8 + 8 ASI + 4 Rage +d6 Divine Fury + 2 (lvl 5/2 rounded down) is 26.5 ave, and I still have my bonus action. At level 6, that ave goes to 27.5
Zerker: Sword: 3d8 + 12 ASI +6 Rage (average is 31.5). Granted, you now have exhaustion so it needs to be managed a bit.
I will add, all of the above assumes that you STILL DON'T HAVE A MAGIC WEAPON by level 5. If you instead have a +1 longsword by lvl 5 (an absolute given in AL, for example), then you of course add 2 and 3 average damage to the above examples.
By the way, those are still lower. Notwithstanding, yes, weapons will eventually overtake the claws. Certainly the Zealot eventually will. I would talk to the DM about creative magic items catered to Beast mode.
The feral power within you increases, causing the natural weapons of your Form of the Beast to count as magical for the purpose of overcoming resistance and immunity to nonmagical attacks and damage.
You can also alter your form to help you adapt to your surroundings. When you finish a short or long rest, choose one of the following benefits, which lasts until you finish your next short or long rest:
Climbing
You gain a climbing speed equal to your walking speed, and you can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
Jumping
When you jump, you can make a Strength (Athletics) check and extend your jump by a number of feet equal to the check’s total. You can make this special check only once per turn.
Swimming
You gain a swimming speed equal to your walking speed, and you can breathe underwater.
I don't think you fully appreciate how bad that exhaustion is.
Yes, I am well aware that exhaustion sucks, but that is really campaign and setting specific problem - and one that can be easily managed. I mostly play in that "unwanted son with no father" version called AL so it is exceptionally easy to manage exhaustion as it completely resets after each game, regardless of the amount of exhaustion. A semi-intelligent player can easily manage their exhaustion in such a setting to Rage 2-3 times a game (where there are usually no more than 4 combats) with the only very temporary downside of disadvantage on ability checks.
By the way, those are still lower. Notwithstanding, yes, weapons will eventually overtake the claws. Certainly the Zealot eventually will. I would talk to the DM about creative magic items catered to Beast mode.
Sorry, but appeals to the DM to homebrew a solution is moving the goal post. Any subclass can be made better if we are asking the DM to color outside of the lines.
I don't think you fully appreciate how bad that exhaustion is.
Yes, I am well aware that exhaustion sucks, but that is really campaign and setting specific problem - and one that can be easily managed. I mostly play in that "unwanted son with no father" version called AL so it is exceptionally easy to manage exhaustion as it completely resets after each game, regardless of the amount of exhaustion. A semi-intelligent player can easily manage their exhaustion in such a setting to Rage 2-3 times a game (where there are usually no more than 4 combats) with the only very temporary downside of disadvantage on ability checks.
By the way, those are still lower. Notwithstanding, yes, weapons will eventually overtake the claws. Certainly the Zealot eventually will. I would talk to the DM about creative magic items catered to Beast mode.
Sorry, but appeals to the DM to homebrew a solution is moving the goal post. Any subclass can be made better if we are asking the DM to color outside of the lines.
Aside from a one-shot, or a house rule, or an unusual reset-between-games situation like yours, Berserker is horrible. I wouldn't even play it for a one-shot. Just get pole-arm master if you want a bonus attack.
How about if we appeal to the DM for options that are NOT a homebrew? Is that moving the goal post?
Produced by a special needle, this magic tattoo depicts clawlike forms and other jagged shapes.
Tattoo Attunement. To attune to this item, you hold the needle to your skin where you want the tattoo to appear, pressing the needle there throughout the attunement process. When the attunement is complete, the needle turns into the ink that becomes the tattoo, which appears on the skin.
If your attunement to the tattoo ends, the tattoo vanishes, and the needle reappears in your space.
Magical Strikes. While the tattoo is on your skin, your unarmed strikes are considered magical for the purpose of overcoming immunity and resistance to nonmagical attacks, and you gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with unarmed strikes.
Eldritch Maul. As a bonus action, you can empower the tattoo for 1 minute. For the duration, each of your melee attacks with a weapon or an unarmed strike can reach a target up to 15 feet away from you, as inky tendrils launch toward the target. In addition, your melee attacks deal an extra 1d6 force damage on a hit. Once used, this bonus action can’t be used again until the next dawn.
So with the way the wording is for the Claws, would you be able to use the three attacks while using a shield? Or does using a shield mean your hand isn’t empty, thus negating the claw attacks?
So with the way the wording is for the Claws, would you be able to use the three attacks while using a shield? Or does using a shield mean your hand isn’t empty, thus negating the claw attacks?
Yes 👍 If you attack with *a* claw, you can make an additional claw attack as part of the same action (once on your turn).
You can hold a shield and claw - claw - claw. You can wield a greatsword and sword - claw - claw
Here’s where it gets fun: FOUR attacks at Level 5! Glaive + Polearm Master OR choose the Shifter Longtooth race and Bite as a bonus action.
“Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attackaction, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.”
Yea claw + shield works to get 3 attacks. Nothing in the text of the extra claw attack says that it has to be made with the other hand.
Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.
Probably the first sub that actively wants a shield and two-handed weapon in their kit.
Ninja!
Beat me to it, but I don't think PAM works to give you that consistent bonus action attack.
When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon.
Since you're splitting up your attack action between weapon and claw this doesn't seem to work.
There seem to be very few ways to give the Beast Barb a consistent bonus action attack. Longtooth Shifter is a really good find for sure. Has a lot of natural synergy with the flavor too. All around good fit.
Crossbow Expert lacks that all important "only". Perhaps a really goofy hand crossbow + claw build? Unarmored to promote maxing strength and dex. Just be careful not to snap your crossbow string when you load those bolts with a clawed hand lol.
Yea claw + shield works to get 3 attacks. Nothing in the text of the extra claw attack says that it has to be made with the other hand.
Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.
Probably the first sub that actively wants a shield and two-handed weapon in their kit.
Ninja!
Beat me to it, but I don't think PAM works to give you that consistent bonus action attack.
When you take the Attack action and attack with only a glaive, halberd, quarterstaff, or spear, you can use a bonus action to make a melee attack with the opposite end of the weapon.
Since you're splitting up your attack action between weapon and claw this doesn't seem to work.
There seem to be very few ways to give the Beast Barb a consistent bonus action attack. Longtooth Shifter is a really good find for sure. Has a lot of natural synergy with the flavor too. All around good fit.
Crossbow Expert lacks that all important "only". Perhaps a really goofy hand crossbow + claw build? Unarmored to promote maxing strength and dex. Just be careful not to snap your crossbow string when you load those bolts with a clawed hand lol.
Perhaps there’s sage advice that corrects me, but I interpret “only” to mean only those weapons will grant you a bonus action attack. Not that you cannot have also attacked with a different weapon.
Like a Polearm Master Monk should be able to kick, quarterstaff, (bonus) quarterstaff, right?
Edit: I reread it and thought about it, and I’m kind of agreeing with you here.
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
The fact that they have such distinct and specific language leads me to think PAM was worded to work if you only attack with your polearm. This feat seems to have historical precedence in the 3.5 feat from Complete Warrior; Spinning Halberd. This was a style feat that allowed you to make an extra attack with the butt of your halberd. I believe PAM is based off of this and was designed to mirror that flavor where your mastery of the polearm allows you to fully utilize all parts of the weapon in your attacks.
Maybe they didn't worry about the monk flavor because they already have a bonus action attack? I agree it's weird a monk can't pull this off in some way. But if PAM is influenced by Spinning Halberd, then it's all about manipulating the weapon.
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You are not comparing apples to apples. You need to add in the alternate barb abilities.
To pick the two best comparisons:
Zealot Barb: Sword: 2d8 + 8 ASI + 4 Rage +d6 Divine Fury + 2 (lvl 5/2 rounded down) is 26.5 ave, and I still have my bonus action. At level 6, that ave goes to 27.5
Zerker: Sword: 3d8 + 12 ASI +6 Rage (average is 31.5). Granted, you now have exhaustion so it needs to be managed a bit.
I will add, all of the above assumes that you STILL DON'T HAVE A MAGIC WEAPON by level 5. If you instead have a +1 longsword by lvl 5 (an absolute given in AL, for example), then you of course add 2 and 3 average damage to the above examples.
Yes, the Zealot adds more damage, but I was addressing people saying normal weapon attacks do more damage. I also acknowledged that magic weapons and feats and such can eventually make weapon attacks win. The claws also are not the only option or feature with this subclass. Totem is a great subclass that adds no damage at all.
Berserker is a horrible trap of a subclass. I don't think you fully appreciate how bad that exhaustion is. You just have to manage it a bit? First let's look the effects.
Now check this out - PHB: "Finishing a long rest reduces a creature's exhaustion level by 1, provided that the creature has also ingested some food and drink."
So if you Rage just twice, after you finish a long rest you *still* have 1 level of exhaustion. How many times are you going to use Frenzy on that day? It's more than a bit of management. I mean why take Polearm Master when you can be constantly trying to get rid of exhaustion instead?
By the way, those are still lower. Notwithstanding, yes, weapons will eventually overtake the claws. Certainly the Zealot eventually will. I would talk to the DM about creative magic items catered to Beast mode.
I freaking love this!
Yes, I am well aware that exhaustion sucks, but that is really campaign and setting specific problem - and one that can be easily managed. I mostly play in that "unwanted son with no father" version called AL so it is exceptionally easy to manage exhaustion as it completely resets after each game, regardless of the amount of exhaustion. A semi-intelligent player can easily manage their exhaustion in such a setting to Rage 2-3 times a game (where there are usually no more than 4 combats) with the only very temporary downside of disadvantage on ability checks.
Sorry, but appeals to the DM to homebrew a solution is moving the goal post. Any subclass can be made better if we are asking the DM to color outside of the lines.
Aside from a one-shot, or a house rule, or an unusual reset-between-games situation like yours, Berserker is horrible. I wouldn't even play it for a one-shot. Just get pole-arm master if you want a bonus attack.
How about if we appeal to the DM for options that are NOT a homebrew? Is that moving the goal post?
To break down the difference in simple terms,, you can always replace one weapon attack with two claw attacks.
Level 5, 18 Strength
Greatsword: 2d6 + 4 + 3 = 14 average damage
2 Claws: 2d6 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 3 = 21 average damage
That’s a 33% increase. And the higher your ASI and Rage bonus becomes, the bigger the difference.
So with the way the wording is for the Claws, would you be able to use the three attacks while using a shield? Or does using a shield mean your hand isn’t empty, thus negating the claw attacks?
Yes 👍 If you attack with *a* claw, you can make an additional claw attack as part of the same action (once on your turn).
You can hold a shield and claw - claw - claw.
You can wield a greatsword and sword - claw - claw
Here’s where it gets fun: FOUR attacks at Level 5! Glaive + Polearm Master OR choose the Shifter Longtooth race and Bite as a bonus action.
“Claws. Each of your hands transforms into a claw, which you can use as a weapon if it’s empty. It deals 1d6 slashing damage on a hit. Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attackaction, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action.”
Yea claw + shield works to get 3 attacks. Nothing in the text of the extra claw attack says that it has to be made with the other hand.
Probably the first sub that actively wants a shield and two-handed weapon in their kit.
Ninja!
Beat me to it, but I don't think PAM works to give you that consistent bonus action attack.
Since you're splitting up your attack action between weapon and claw this doesn't seem to work.
There seem to be very few ways to give the Beast Barb a consistent bonus action attack. Longtooth Shifter is a really good find for sure. Has a lot of natural synergy with the flavor too. All around good fit.
Crossbow Expert lacks that all important "only". Perhaps a really goofy hand crossbow + claw build? Unarmored to promote maxing strength and dex. Just be careful not to snap your crossbow string when you load those bolts with a clawed hand lol.
Perhaps there’s sage advice that corrects me, but I interpret “only” to mean only those weapons will grant you a bonus action attack. Not that you cannot have also attacked with a different weapon.
Like a Polearm Master Monk should be able to kick, quarterstaff, (bonus) quarterstaff, right?
Edit: I reread it and thought about it, and I’m kind of agreeing with you here.
Here's crossbow expert for reference:
The fact that they have such distinct and specific language leads me to think PAM was worded to work if you only attack with your polearm. This feat seems to have historical precedence in the 3.5 feat from Complete Warrior; Spinning Halberd. This was a style feat that allowed you to make an extra attack with the butt of your halberd. I believe PAM is based off of this and was designed to mirror that flavor where your mastery of the polearm allows you to fully utilize all parts of the weapon in your attacks.
Maybe they didn't worry about the monk flavor because they already have a bonus action attack? I agree it's weird a monk can't pull this off in some way. But if PAM is influenced by Spinning Halberd, then it's all about manipulating the weapon.