I like a nice debate, but this is a thread about 4 Elements Monk, on the Monk class Forum. Could we continue in that line, if there is anything else to say about it?
To try and take this thread in a different direction since the pros/cons of 4 elements has been talked to death (along with those of other subclasses from other classes entirely)
Are there any feats that are worth taking for a 4 elements monk that a regular monk of a different subclass might not take?
For example, the first feat that might come to a player's mind is elemental adept, as it allows for empowering at least one of your damage types from your Elemental Disciplines. It just comes with two (possibly minor) issues. 1) Assuming you only take the feat once, its only going to help with one damage type, so it might restrict which disciplines you would choose from. 2) It only works on spells you casts, so things like Fangs of the Fire Snake would not get the benefit.
For a tiefling, I feel like Flames of Phlegethos could be fun too (but with the same potential drawbacks of elemental adept)
And if you want to change it for your game, then fine. But changing something you don't understand isn't going to make it work better because you lack the understanding to know what it lacks. And any such discussion probably belongs in a homebrew forum and not here.
I do understand it from my own experiences with the subclass and I do not feel that really adds much to conversation in a productive way.
I think that there is enough sentiment that the subclass is on the weaker side that I am not alone in the assessment....in fact it would seem the minority position would be that it is viable as is.
While this is of course not fully representative of all DnD Players the fact that it is ranked low in almost every survey that is completed is pretty telling about the quality of the subclass IMO.
To try and take this thread in a different direction since the pros/cons of 4 elements has been talked to death (along with those of other subclasses from other classes entirely)
Are there any feats that are worth taking for a 4 elements monk that a regular monk of a different subclass might not take?
For example, the first feat that might come to a player's mind is elemental adept, as it allows for empowering at least one of your damage types from your Elemental Disciplines. It just comes with two (possibly minor) issues. 1) Assuming you only take the feat once, its only going to help with one damage type, so it might restrict which disciplines you would choose from. 2) It only works on spells you casts, so things like Fangs of the Fire Snake would not get the benefit.
For a tiefling, I feel like Flames of Phlegethos could be fun too (but with the same potential drawbacks of elemental adept)
Other thoughts?
Maybe a druid magic initiate? Would give you cantrips and a 1st level druid spell. Would be off WIS which you are likely to prioritize.
Cleric dips would also be interesting as you could get cantrips and spell slots for versatility and since you are focusing on WIS more than other monks would be beneficial.
Picking one that gives you martial weapons would open up a lot of choices for Dedicated Weapon (Whip, Longsword stick out)
To try and take this thread in a different direction since the pros/cons of 4 elements has been talked to death (along with those of other subclasses from other classes entirely)
Are there any feats that are worth taking for a 4 elements monk that a regular monk of a different subclass might not take?
For example, the first feat that might come to a player's mind is elemental adept, as it allows for empowering at least one of your damage types from your Elemental Disciplines. It just comes with two (possibly minor) issues. 1) Assuming you only take the feat once, its only going to help with one damage type, so it might restrict which disciplines you would choose from. 2) It only works on spells you casts, so things like Fangs of the Fire Snake would not get the benefit.
For a tiefling, I feel like Flames of Phlegethos could be fun too (but with the same potential drawbacks of elemental adept)
Other thoughts?
I thought magic initiate might be a good feat to add a little versatility. Thorn whip might be good as well as some other utility or ranged cantrips to save the Ki. Quite a few options to choose from.
I agree Magic Initiate is a good choice, but its one that I think all monks could gain the same sort of versatility from equally. The extra magic fits more thematically with 4 elements for sure, but it doesn't really build off of or synergize with the spellcasting they are given.
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The feats are pretty limited for 4E monks that other monks wouldn’t equally benefit from. Elemental Adept was already mentioned. Maybe Metamagic Adept might be another option to quicken some of your spells.
at least I think it would work. Use Ki to cast a fireball, with 2 SP to quicken it. Then Ki Fueled strike afterwards if someone is in range or that you can move up to after casting.
I did not think about metamagic adept, thats a pretty good one. The number of sorc points you can use is low, but being able to add even more versatility to the limited number of spells you have prepared could help make your elemental abilities feel more fleshed out
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Magic Initiate is the no-brainer. Taking MI-Druid gives you Absorb Elements (which is super thematic, and is a quality first level spell across all tiers of play) as well as two of:
Elemental utility: Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, Shape Water
Elemental attack: Create Bonfire, Frostbite, Produce Flame, Thunderclap
Other good options that can be reflavored as elemental: Druidcraft, Guidance, Magic Stone, Mending, Primal Savagery, Resistance, Shillelagh, Thorn Whip (Yes, that was all of the Druid cantrips other than the poison damage ones.)
Otherwise, Metamagic Adept technically wouldn't be available (due to Elemonks not getting a "Spellcasting" trait), but as a DM I would absolutely let them take it. Transmuted Spell would be GREAT for this subclass, and you'd be able to use it twice a day to turn Burning Hands into Freezing Hands, or Shatter into Lightning Burst, etc. I guess Subtle Spell or Quickened Spell would be viable second options, but honestly going with only Transmuted Spell twice a day would be the most thematic. Again, it would require a DM ruling to allow it for your Monk, and if you get to that point I'd let them use it on all EDs, not just the spells.
Finally, Fey Touched is good. But Fey Touched is good for everyone always. :)
Otherwise, Metamagic Adept technically wouldn't be available (due to Elemonks not getting a "Spellcasting" trait), but as a DM I would absolutely let them take it. Transmuted Spell would be GREAT for this subclass, and you'd be able to use it twice a day to turn Burning Hands into Freezing Hands, or Shatter into Lightning Burst, etc. I guess Subtle Spell or Quickened Spell would be viable second options, but honestly going with only Transmuted Spell twice a day would be the most thematic. Again, it would require a DM ruling to allow it for your Monk, and if you get to that point I'd let them use it on all EDs, not just the spells.
Finally, Fey Touched is good. But Fey Touched is good for everyone always. :)
Ah, I missed that. I thought the prerequisite for Metamagic Adept was just the ability to cast a spell. Oh well. I am with you, as a DM I would definitely allow a 4 elements player to take it.
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Ah, I missed that. I thought the prerequisite for Metamagic Adept was just the ability to cast a spell. Oh well. I am with you, as a DM I would definitely allow a 4 elements player to take it.
Yeah, the TCE feats Metamagic Adept and Eldritch Adept have a slightly different prereq than the PHB feats like War Caster or Elemental Adept.
TCE: "Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature" PHB: "The ability to cast at least one spell"
Subtle difference but a difference nonetheless. It somewhat makes sense, especially for Metamagic Adept, but goes to show how the Four Elements Monk has been forgotten by WOTC. Like, Metamagic Adept only makes sense for PCs who can cast several spells, so it makes sense to leave out High Elves and Tieflings and whatnot that gain racial spellcasting -- but that also leaves out Elemonks from the fun as well.
Ah, I missed that. I thought the prerequisite for Metamagic Adept was just the ability to cast a spell. Oh well. I am with you, as a DM I would definitely allow a 4 elements player to take it.
Yeah, the TCE feats Metamagic Adept and Eldritch Adept have a slightly different prereq than the PHB feats like War Caster or Elemental Adept.
TCE: "Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature" PHB: "The ability to cast at least one spell"
Subtle difference but a difference nonetheless. It somewhat makes sense, especially for Metamagic Adept, but goes to show how the Four Elements Monk has been forgotten by WOTC. Like, Metamagic Adept only makes sense for PCs who can cast several spells, so it makes sense to leave out High Elves and Tieflings and whatnot that gain racial spellcasting -- but that also leaves out Elemonks from the fun as well.
Yeah, I messed that up. I had just been looking at elemental adept which only requires being able to cast a spell, and got that mixed with metamagic adept
And if you want to change it for your game, then fine. But changing something you don't understand isn't going to make it work better because you lack the understanding to know what it lacks. And any such discussion probably belongs in a homebrew forum and not here.
I do understand it from my own experiences with the subclass and I do not feel that really adds much to conversation in a productive way.
I think that there is enough sentiment that the subclass is on the weaker side that I am not alone in the assessment....in fact it would seem the minority position would be that it is viable as is.
While this is of course not fully representative of all DnD Players the fact that it is ranked low in almost every survey that is completed is pretty telling about the quality of the subclass IMO.
I'm struggling to find whatever point you might think is buried in there. I mean, just look at them.
The fanvsvotes link has a mere 148 votes for favorite class. You cannot seriously expect anyone here to pay that even the slightest bit of their mind.
I'm assuming the infogram is showing that 11% of monks are 4E monks. I find that a respectable percentage; given seven different subclasses. The average of which would be 14.29%. But I just don't know. It's a bunch of graphs with no context given. Information is lacking, so what conclusions can we draw? I mean, did you even pass mathematics in high school? How to properly label graphs is basic.
The googledocs class survey is equally meaningless. All I see are lots of numbers and no context given. What's the sample size? Because the last page is just one dude's personal ratings for each subclass.
The only one that is remotely useful is the imgur link showing D&D Beyond's stats, and...it doesn't even discuss the 4E monk.
I feel dumber for having even looked at these. They don't bloody say anything. People can think whatever they want. Having different tastes is allowed. That's one of the reasons there are so many classes and subclasses to play. There's, hopefully, something for everyone. But people can also hate beautiful things and adore utter trash. Correlation does not equate to causation. Something can be popular with the crowd, but what is popular isn't always right. And what is right isn't always popular.
Magic Initiate is the no-brainer. Taking MI-Druid gives you Absorb Elements (which is super thematic, and is a quality first level spell across all tiers of play) as well as two of:
Elemental utility: Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, Shape Water
Elemental attack: Create Bonfire, Frostbite, Produce Flame, Thunderclap
Other good options that can be reflavored as elemental: Druidcraft, Guidance, Magic Stone, Mending, Primal Savagery, Resistance, Shillelagh, Thorn Whip (Yes, that was all of the Druid cantrips other than the poison damage ones.)
Otherwise, Metamagic Adept technically wouldn't be available (due to Elemonks not getting a "Spellcasting" trait), but as a DM I would absolutely let them take it. Transmuted Spell would be GREAT for this subclass, and you'd be able to use it twice a day to turn Burning Hands into Freezing Hands, or Shatter into Lightning Burst, etc. I guess Subtle Spell or Quickened Spell would be viable second options, but honestly going with only Transmuted Spell twice a day would be the most thematic. Again, it would require a DM ruling to allow it for your Monk, and if you get to that point I'd let them use it on all EDs, not just the spells.
Finally, Fey Touched is good. But Fey Touched is good for everyone always. :)
Man is Fey Touched good! I would allow them to use Ki to cast the spell as well if they picked it and didn't have one of the slot variations I mentioned.
Transmuted would be an awesome addition as well....would make thematic sense as you mentioned. Plus if you dipped Tempest Cleric then you would have the channel divinity to max the damage which feels very Avatarish.
And if you want to change it for your game, then fine. But changing something you don't understand isn't going to make it work better because you lack the understanding to know what it lacks. And any such discussion probably belongs in a homebrew forum and not here.
I do understand it from my own experiences with the subclass and I do not feel that really adds much to conversation in a productive way.
I think that there is enough sentiment that the subclass is on the weaker side that I am not alone in the assessment....in fact it would seem the minority position would be that it is viable as is.
While this is of course not fully representative of all DnD Players the fact that it is ranked low in almost every survey that is completed is pretty telling about the quality of the subclass IMO.
I'm struggling to find whatever point you might think is buried in there. I mean, just look at them.
The fanvsvotes link has a mere 148 votes for favorite class. You cannot seriously expect anyone here to pay that even the slightest bit of their mind.
I'm assuming the infogram is showing that 11% of monks are 4E monks. I find that a respectable percentage; given seven different subclasses. The average of which would be 14.29%. But I just don't know. It's a bunch of graphs with no context given. Information is lacking, so what conclusions can we draw? I mean, did you even pass mathematics in high school? How to properly label graphs is basic.
The googledocs class survey is equally meaningless. All I see are lots of numbers and no context given. What's the sample size? Because the last page is just one dude's personal ratings for each subclass.
The only one that is remotely useful is the imgur link showing D&D Beyond's stats, and...it doesn't even discuss the 4E monk.
I feel dumber for having even looked at these. They don't bloody say anything. People can think whatever they want. Having different tastes is allowed. That's one of the reasons there are so many classes and subclasses to play. There's, hopefully, something for everyone. But people can also hate beautiful things and adore utter trash. Correlation does not equate to causation. Something can be popular with the crowd, but what is popular isn't always right. And what is right isn't always popular.
If you consistently finding people not enjoying a subclass then I think its fair to say something is intriniscally off about said subclass. There is plenty of surveys out there that show its a subclass that is not picked a lot or even very well enjoyed by those who pick it.
The "Power to Enjoyment" ratio on the google docs sheet is about the most glaring to me....people view it as both weak and not really enjoyable.
Also if you look at guides the subclass is consistently rated low:
The consistent assessment from a variety of people who spent the time to thoroughly breakdown the subclasses is "Underwhelming" and "There are trap options here"
At some point you kind of have to see it for what it is....a lower tier option for monk.
Its a better comparison to look at average damage. Also percentages are misleading as 66% sounds impressive....but if you asked a player if they would want to do 6 more points of a damage a turn in exchange for a level of exhaustion then it puts that in different light.
It is unfair from your perspective to allow subclass abilities from Berzerker and not from the PAM Barbarian who chose another subclass. If you want an apples to apples comparison you could give the Berzerker GWM as a v.human and that would even things out more and be a fair comparison. In that case I do think the Berzerker would come out ahead but likely fall behind later to other subclasses that get PAM+GWM at level 4....especially considering they can get a AoO more frequently as I mentioned.
The bottom line is a feat approximates 75% of your damage without having the huge penalty of a level of exhaustion. It does not take a lot of reasoning to see this is a horrible trade off and that the feat will not only provide the majority of the damage BEFORE you even include your alternative subclass choice....but you also get the benefits of said subclass that are not damage related in addition.
The benefits you get from PAM not only approximate the vast majority of the benefits from the Berserker subclass it adds a feature that is arguably even better than its 14th level ability that allows you to use a reaction to attack a creature.
Overall its not hard to see why Berzerker is a terribly designed subclass and is rightfully panned as one of the worst.
I could allow them. The thing is. They don't really apply. If I want to shift goals and talk about overall damage. We can do that. But it isn't necessarily as pretty as you think. Because it means in fairness i then have to give Feats to the Berserker. In place of your PAM? I can give GWM. It's a massive boost in damage, both overall and on the specific attack we're talking about. You claim I'm not being fair. But the truth of the matter is that your argument for fairness is actually false in a discussion purely about the BA because it doesn't apply. PAM does versus the singular feature of the Berserker.
Your working off a perception that you claim is easy to see. But your not seeing any of the faults in the argument. The truth of the matter is in the PAM against Frenzy argument there is plenty that is being left off on both sides. Fair does not actually get nicer for either side. It can always be stacked in some way. If I give to one then I have to equal out the other. I was leaving out things that easily apply in favor of Berserker as well, particularly to overall damage.
So your easy to see how bad it is? That's all based upon misperception of the truth. Easy to see does not mean that is what is actually happening. I am not understanding what Lacks here. I understand very well the parts and problems going on there. Just like I do with 4 elements. Which you've made remarks to ignore repeatedly. Just like your shifting goals over the Berserker to serve your Outcome and not letting the outcome come to you.
And if you want to change it for your game, then fine. But changing something you don't understand isn't going to make it work better because you lack the understanding to know what it lacks. And any such discussion probably belongs in a homebrew forum and not here.
I do understand it from my own experiences with the subclass and I do not feel that really adds much to conversation in a productive way.
I think that there is enough sentiment that the subclass is on the weaker side that I am not alone in the assessment....in fact it would seem the minority position would be that it is viable as is.
While this is of course not fully representative of all DnD Players the fact that it is ranked low in almost every survey that is completed is pretty telling about the quality of the subclass IMO.
All this shows. Is mass perception. It doesn't show the truth of how good or bad any of these subclasses are. Just the way that the player base at large (if even that) percieves the subclasses or favors certain ones. It doesn't say how good they actually are. Some of them could easily be better when it comes to mechanics and still not be favored in polls for various reasons. Polls do not tell the story of how good something is and never have. They only tell the story of how popular somehting is which is very different altogether.
And if you want to change it for your game, then fine. But changing something you don't understand isn't going to make it work better because you lack the understanding to know what it lacks. And any such discussion probably belongs in a homebrew forum and not here.
I do understand it from my own experiences with the subclass and I do not feel that really adds much to conversation in a productive way.
I think that there is enough sentiment that the subclass is on the weaker side that I am not alone in the assessment....in fact it would seem the minority position would be that it is viable as is.
While this is of course not fully representative of all DnD Players the fact that it is ranked low in almost every survey that is completed is pretty telling about the quality of the subclass IMO.
I'm struggling to find whatever point you might think is buried in there. I mean, just look at them.
The fanvsvotes link has a mere 148 votes for favorite class. You cannot seriously expect anyone here to pay that even the slightest bit of their mind.
I'm assuming the infogram is showing that 11% of monks are 4E monks. I find that a respectable percentage; given seven different subclasses. The average of which would be 14.29%. But I just don't know. It's a bunch of graphs with no context given. Information is lacking, so what conclusions can we draw? I mean, did you even pass mathematics in high school? How to properly label graphs is basic.
The googledocs class survey is equally meaningless. All I see are lots of numbers and no context given. What's the sample size? Because the last page is just one dude's personal ratings for each subclass.
The only one that is remotely useful is the imgur link showing D&D Beyond's stats, and...it doesn't even discuss the 4E monk.
I feel dumber for having even looked at these. They don't bloody say anything. People can think whatever they want. Having different tastes is allowed. That's one of the reasons there are so many classes and subclasses to play. There's, hopefully, something for everyone. But people can also hate beautiful things and adore utter trash. Correlation does not equate to causation. Something can be popular with the crowd, but what is popular isn't always right. And what is right isn't always popular.
If you consistently finding people not enjoying a subclass then I think its fair to say something is intriniscally off about said subclass. There is plenty of surveys out there that show its a subclass that is not picked a lot or even very well enjoyed by those who pick it.
The "Power to Enjoyment" ratio on the google docs sheet is about the most glaring to me....people view it as both weak and not really enjoyable.
Also if you look at guides the subclass is consistently rated low:
The consistent assessment from a variety of people who spent the time to thoroughly breakdown the subclasses is "Underwhelming" and "There are trap options here"
At some point you kind of have to see it for what it is....a lower tier option for monk.
Consistent Assessment is driven as much by mass perception as it is by anything else. There is nothing saying in any of them that the person ever even played a 4 elements monk to say whether it was fun. There is a lot of hate that goes around by people that have never actually tried things.
I can actually go around and find the same thing for multiple classes and subclasses. Potentially even ones you might like and argue is wrong. Bard for example is an entire class that has had to change perceptions over it and polls about it between the start of 5th edition and now are actually very different about it. And it was almost entirely driven by player perception until people played it finally in groups and showed that it was mechanically strong and familiar to things like Mages now.
Druids are another one that rank consistently low for various reasons but has just enough sway in perception that at least some that dislike them for various reasons will at least admit they can be powerful.
Blade Singers are highly popular even though mechanically they aren't any stronger than several other kinds of mages. They only do something a bit different that takes extra attention and building and play style to make useful that if your not going to buy into any one of those factors with a character it's just not going to be an enjoyable build at all. But it at least has guides to help new players with that and point out that it's a different style of play from playing say Any other kind of Wizard. Even though mechanically in power it can't actually outperform other wizards it is often rated as "the most powerful" or "most popular" only one of those of which is true.
Magic Initiate is the no-brainer. Taking MI-Druid gives you Absorb Elements (which is super thematic, and is a quality first level spell across all tiers of play) as well as two of:
Elemental utility: Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, Shape Water
Elemental attack: Create Bonfire, Frostbite, Produce Flame, Thunderclap
Other good options that can be reflavored as elemental: Druidcraft, Guidance, Magic Stone, Mending, Primal Savagery, Resistance, Shillelagh, Thorn Whip (Yes, that was all of the Druid cantrips other than the poison damage ones.)
Otherwise, Metamagic Adept technically wouldn't be available (due to Elemonks not getting a "Spellcasting" trait), but as a DM I would absolutely let them take it. Transmuted Spell would be GREAT for this subclass, and you'd be able to use it twice a day to turn Burning Hands into Freezing Hands, or Shatter into Lightning Burst, etc. I guess Subtle Spell or Quickened Spell would be viable second options, but honestly going with only Transmuted Spell twice a day would be the most thematic. Again, it would require a DM ruling to allow it for your Monk, and if you get to that point I'd let them use it on all EDs, not just the spells.
Finally, Fey Touched is good. But Fey Touched is good for everyone always. :)
Man is Fey Touched good! I would allow them to use Ki to cast the spell as well if they picked it and didn't have one of the slot variations I mentioned.
Transmuted would be an awesome addition as well....would make thematic sense as you mentioned. Plus if you dipped Tempest Cleric then you would have the channel divinity to max the damage which feels very Avatarish.
Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, and Telekenetic All have additional flavor or abilities that they can add that expand abilities out more and can key off of Wisdom. which the Monk already wants and as these are useful picks for all Monks that doesn't change here. It's perhaps more true because your going to be Wisdom First most likely. The only downside is you don't have slots to recast their spells. Though I feel there is an argument for making this possible at ones own table through the appropriate number of ki points. But that's just more reason why I advocate for the tweak of a few more ki points for 4 elements monks to begin with.
Elemental Adept is strongest if you have just a single or dual element user in mind. But I have seen this put to really good use by somebody else, specially when combined with doing a few more disciplines that suited their element. (In their case it was acid damage for leaning into earth).
Flames is great if your a Tiefling. it basically gives your 4 elements monk a version of the Sun Soul's 17th level power in a way but your actually more likely to be in close range to make use of it and it doesn't require action economy to trigger. It just triggers by what your doing to begin with.
I wouldn't recommend all of them on a monk but one of the Halfling Feats could be useful on a monk as well if you went with that race selection.
Some of the base monk feats thta people advocate for are useful as well. Though I'd argue a few of them are a bit over hyped.
Also. There is consideration for things like Toughness for monks in general, but even for 4 elements. And things like War Caster though it's only partly useful or resilient in Con can be useful if your leaning into Elemental Disciplines that have Concentration like fly or Hold Person (or any elemental ones you might add on your own).
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Fair point I will drop it;
To try and take this thread in a different direction since the pros/cons of 4 elements has been talked to death (along with those of other subclasses from other classes entirely)
Are there any feats that are worth taking for a 4 elements monk that a regular monk of a different subclass might not take?
For example, the first feat that might come to a player's mind is elemental adept, as it allows for empowering at least one of your damage types from your Elemental Disciplines. It just comes with two (possibly minor) issues. 1) Assuming you only take the feat once, its only going to help with one damage type, so it might restrict which disciplines you would choose from. 2) It only works on spells you casts, so things like Fangs of the Fire Snake would not get the benefit.
For a tiefling, I feel like Flames of Phlegethos could be fun too (but with the same potential drawbacks of elemental adept)
Other thoughts?
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I do understand it from my own experiences with the subclass and I do not feel that really adds much to conversation in a productive way.
I think that there is enough sentiment that the subclass is on the weaker side that I am not alone in the assessment....in fact it would seem the minority position would be that it is viable as is.
https://www.dnd.fansvsvotes.com/Results.html
https://infogram.com/dnd-character-classsubclass-population-survey-12020-1hke60mg1nd325r?live
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vQK9WoCYz5l0IWv6a9kDJmy4X5-zQYd631t1CFxGA_68OKeKxKyM3prgvHqx1k7acRdTKO0ZR6XXLOp/pubhtml
https://imgur.com/a/K5MFcp1
While this is of course not fully representative of all DnD Players the fact that it is ranked low in almost every survey that is completed is pretty telling about the quality of the subclass IMO.
Maybe a druid magic initiate? Would give you cantrips and a 1st level druid spell. Would be off WIS which you are likely to prioritize.
Cleric dips would also be interesting as you could get cantrips and spell slots for versatility and since you are focusing on WIS more than other monks would be beneficial.
Picking one that gives you martial weapons would open up a lot of choices for Dedicated Weapon (Whip, Longsword stick out)
I thought magic initiate might be a good feat to add a little versatility. Thorn whip might be good as well as some other utility or ranged cantrips to save the Ki. Quite a few options to choose from.
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I agree Magic Initiate is a good choice, but its one that I think all monks could gain the same sort of versatility from equally. The extra magic fits more thematically with 4 elements for sure, but it doesn't really build off of or synergize with the spellcasting they are given.
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The feats are pretty limited for 4E monks that other monks wouldn’t equally benefit from. Elemental Adept was already mentioned. Maybe Metamagic Adept might be another option to quicken some of your spells.
at least I think it would work. Use Ki to cast a fireball, with 2 SP to quicken it. Then Ki Fueled strike afterwards if someone is in range or that you can move up to after casting.
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I did not think about metamagic adept, thats a pretty good one. The number of sorc points you can use is low, but being able to add even more versatility to the limited number of spells you have prepared could help make your elemental abilities feel more fleshed out
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Magic Initiate is the no-brainer. Taking MI-Druid gives you Absorb Elements (which is super thematic, and is a quality first level spell across all tiers of play) as well as two of:
Elemental utility:
Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, Shape Water
Elemental attack:
Create Bonfire, Frostbite, Produce Flame, Thunderclap
Other good options that can be reflavored as elemental:
Druidcraft, Guidance, Magic Stone, Mending, Primal Savagery, Resistance, Shillelagh, Thorn Whip
(Yes, that was all of the Druid cantrips other than the poison damage ones.)
Otherwise, Metamagic Adept technically wouldn't be available (due to Elemonks not getting a "Spellcasting" trait), but as a DM I would absolutely let them take it. Transmuted Spell would be GREAT for this subclass, and you'd be able to use it twice a day to turn Burning Hands into Freezing Hands, or Shatter into Lightning Burst, etc. I guess Subtle Spell or Quickened Spell would be viable second options, but honestly going with only Transmuted Spell twice a day would be the most thematic. Again, it would require a DM ruling to allow it for your Monk, and if you get to that point I'd let them use it on all EDs, not just the spells.
Finally, Fey Touched is good. But Fey Touched is good for everyone always. :)
Ah, I missed that. I thought the prerequisite for Metamagic Adept was just the ability to cast a spell. Oh well. I am with you, as a DM I would definitely allow a 4 elements player to take it.
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Yeah, the TCE feats Metamagic Adept and Eldritch Adept have a slightly different prereq than the PHB feats like War Caster or Elemental Adept.
TCE: "Spellcasting or Pact Magic feature"
PHB: "The ability to cast at least one spell"
Subtle difference but a difference nonetheless. It somewhat makes sense, especially for Metamagic Adept, but goes to show how the Four Elements Monk has been forgotten by WOTC. Like, Metamagic Adept only makes sense for PCs who can cast several spells, so it makes sense to leave out High Elves and Tieflings and whatnot that gain racial spellcasting -- but that also leaves out Elemonks from the fun as well.
Also shadow monk
Yeah, I messed that up. I had just been looking at elemental adept which only requires being able to cast a spell, and got that mixed with metamagic adept
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I'm struggling to find whatever point you might think is buried in there. I mean, just look at them.
I feel dumber for having even looked at these. They don't bloody say anything. People can think whatever they want. Having different tastes is allowed. That's one of the reasons there are so many classes and subclasses to play. There's, hopefully, something for everyone. But people can also hate beautiful things and adore utter trash. Correlation does not equate to causation. Something can be popular with the crowd, but what is popular isn't always right. And what is right isn't always popular.
Man is Fey Touched good! I would allow them to use Ki to cast the spell as well if they picked it and didn't have one of the slot variations I mentioned.
Transmuted would be an awesome addition as well....would make thematic sense as you mentioned. Plus if you dipped Tempest Cleric then you would have the channel divinity to max the damage which feels very Avatarish.
If you consistently finding people not enjoying a subclass then I think its fair to say something is intriniscally off about said subclass. There is plenty of surveys out there that show its a subclass that is not picked a lot or even very well enjoyed by those who pick it.
The "Power to Enjoyment" ratio on the google docs sheet is about the most glaring to me....people view it as both weak and not really enjoyable.
Also if you look at guides the subclass is consistently rated low:
https://rpgbot.net/dnd5/characters/classes/monk/subclasses.html
https://arcaneeye.com/class-guides/5e-monk-guide/
https://www.gameoutonline.com/dnd-5e-monk-class-guide/
https://www.skullsplitterdice.com/blogs/dnd/the-ultimate-monk-class-guide-5e
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/monk/2382-a-monkeys-monk-guide-for-the-monk-monkeys
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/monk/84652-plums-guide-to-monks
The consistent assessment from a variety of people who spent the time to thoroughly breakdown the subclasses is "Underwhelming" and "There are trap options here"
At some point you kind of have to see it for what it is....a lower tier option for monk.
I could allow them. The thing is. They don't really apply. If I want to shift goals and talk about overall damage. We can do that. But it isn't necessarily as pretty as you think. Because it means in fairness i then have to give Feats to the Berserker. In place of your PAM? I can give GWM. It's a massive boost in damage, both overall and on the specific attack we're talking about. You claim I'm not being fair. But the truth of the matter is that your argument for fairness is actually false in a discussion purely about the BA because it doesn't apply. PAM does versus the singular feature of the Berserker.
Your working off a perception that you claim is easy to see. But your not seeing any of the faults in the argument. The truth of the matter is in the PAM against Frenzy argument there is plenty that is being left off on both sides. Fair does not actually get nicer for either side. It can always be stacked in some way. If I give to one then I have to equal out the other. I was leaving out things that easily apply in favor of Berserker as well, particularly to overall damage.
So your easy to see how bad it is? That's all based upon misperception of the truth. Easy to see does not mean that is what is actually happening. I am not understanding what Lacks here. I understand very well the parts and problems going on there. Just like I do with 4 elements. Which you've made remarks to ignore repeatedly. Just like your shifting goals over the Berserker to serve your Outcome and not letting the outcome come to you.
All this shows. Is mass perception. It doesn't show the truth of how good or bad any of these subclasses are. Just the way that the player base at large (if even that) percieves the subclasses or favors certain ones. It doesn't say how good they actually are. Some of them could easily be better when it comes to mechanics and still not be favored in polls for various reasons. Polls do not tell the story of how good something is and never have. They only tell the story of how popular somehting is which is very different altogether.
Consistent Assessment is driven as much by mass perception as it is by anything else. There is nothing saying in any of them that the person ever even played a 4 elements monk to say whether it was fun. There is a lot of hate that goes around by people that have never actually tried things.
I can actually go around and find the same thing for multiple classes and subclasses. Potentially even ones you might like and argue is wrong. Bard for example is an entire class that has had to change perceptions over it and polls about it between the start of 5th edition and now are actually very different about it. And it was almost entirely driven by player perception until people played it finally in groups and showed that it was mechanically strong and familiar to things like Mages now.
Druids are another one that rank consistently low for various reasons but has just enough sway in perception that at least some that dislike them for various reasons will at least admit they can be powerful.
Blade Singers are highly popular even though mechanically they aren't any stronger than several other kinds of mages. They only do something a bit different that takes extra attention and building and play style to make useful that if your not going to buy into any one of those factors with a character it's just not going to be an enjoyable build at all. But it at least has guides to help new players with that and point out that it's a different style of play from playing say Any other kind of Wizard. Even though mechanically in power it can't actually outperform other wizards it is often rated as "the most powerful" or "most popular" only one of those of which is true.
Fey Touched, Shadow Touched, and Telekenetic All have additional flavor or abilities that they can add that expand abilities out more and can key off of Wisdom. which the Monk already wants and as these are useful picks for all Monks that doesn't change here. It's perhaps more true because your going to be Wisdom First most likely. The only downside is you don't have slots to recast their spells. Though I feel there is an argument for making this possible at ones own table through the appropriate number of ki points. But that's just more reason why I advocate for the tweak of a few more ki points for 4 elements monks to begin with.
Elemental Adept is strongest if you have just a single or dual element user in mind. But I have seen this put to really good use by somebody else, specially when combined with doing a few more disciplines that suited their element. (In their case it was acid damage for leaning into earth).
Flames is great if your a Tiefling. it basically gives your 4 elements monk a version of the Sun Soul's 17th level power in a way but your actually more likely to be in close range to make use of it and it doesn't require action economy to trigger. It just triggers by what your doing to begin with.
I wouldn't recommend all of them on a monk but one of the Halfling Feats could be useful on a monk as well if you went with that race selection.
Some of the base monk feats thta people advocate for are useful as well. Though I'd argue a few of them are a bit over hyped.
Also. There is consideration for things like Toughness for monks in general, but even for 4 elements. And things like War Caster though it's only partly useful or resilient in Con can be useful if your leaning into Elemental Disciplines that have Concentration like fly or Hold Person (or any elemental ones you might add on your own).