I don't think it's in contention whether Dominate person could be effective. A premise of the thread is 'Level 5 combo'. The combo makes less sense when you remove that premise, not because you can't make it work better with higher level spells, but because it just isn't as remarkable. If you remove that 'level 5 combo' consideration, it becomes a different conversation.
Again, it being cool if it works is not much of an argument.
If 'it would be cool' is sufficient reason, then charm person variants work just fine, since it is just as cool if you talk the person into accepting despite their being in combat.
Argument for what? I am not making an argument. I am saying this thread has a context, which is 'Level 5 Combo'. I also added in why that context seems to matter beyond pure arbitrariness.
But I don't think anyone was disagreeing that it would be cool if it worked.
And I still think that Suggestion, which would be within the level 5 limit, would work in combat, albeit might require a good intimidate or persuasion use.
Charm Person would work also as an opening move before the fireworks start. If the party negotiates or opens with conversation then Charm Person is the way to go. My groups often like to talk before starting a fight, at the very least to throw insults or demand surrender.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Ummmm, just for the record - WHY are you using 3 people and spells to take out 1 foe? especially basing it all on a L1 spell with a wisdom save? if you need to inflict 9 or 18 dice of damage the foe is almost certain to be able to reasonably make the save anyway negating the whole exercise. Would this combination actually work under perfect conditions? probably but those same 3 casters almost certainly have a combine way to do as much or nearly as much damage in other far less contrived ways and with possibly better save chances.
Ummmm, just for the record - WHY are you using 3 people and spells to take out 1 foe? especially basing it all on a L1 spell with a wisdom save? if you need to inflict 9 or 18 dice of damage the foe is almost certain to be able to reasonably make the save anyway negating the whole exercise. Would this combination actually work under perfect conditions? probably but those same 3 casters almost certainly have a combine way to do as much or nearly as much damage in other far less contrived ways and with possibly better save chances.
It is possible that the OP can't figure out a way for 3 lvl 5 characters to do 18d6?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Am I crazy or are we all ignoring the unwritten rule that most DMs follow for stuff like this? It's something like:
"Clearly none of this is RAI, but if there's an argument to be made that it's technically legal, then allow it under one circumstance: the party has no other options left."
Like, it's controversial if they're trying to establish this as a reliable combo to use in most encounters, sure. I certainly would tell them no. But if they're fighting a monster resistant to their regular tactics and someone's going to die... Yeah, go for it. Right? Isn't that how these things usually go?
Side note: I think all the teleportation spells really ought to have the "on the ground" wording that Scatter has. They don't, though, so they're open to exploits. Maybe that's on purpose, but I really don't think it feels like it's on purpose.
Am I crazy or are we all ignoring the unwritten rule that most DMs follow for stuff like this? It's something like:
"Clearly none of this is RAI, but if there's an argument to be made that it's technically legal, then allow it under one circumstance: the party has no other options left."
Like, it's controversial if they're trying to establish this as a reliable combo to use in most encounters, sure. I certainly would tell them no. But if they're fighting a monster resistant to their regular tactics and someone's going to die... Yeah, go for it. Right? Isn't that how these things usually go?
Side note: I think all the teleportation spells really ought to have the "on the ground" wording that Scatter has. They don't, though, so they're open to exploits. Maybe that's on purpose, but I really don't think it feels like it's on purpose.
What about the alternative of simply thunderstep'ing the group away 180' ? That is not a trivial distance for the enemy to compensate for. Just with the resources required for this to work, that would seem an obvious alternative.
Thunder Step only works on one other person, maybe two (would only be 90 feet then) (a lot of people say twinned spell can't be used with thunder step, so I'm not caring to make an argument for it), so wouldn't bring the whole party out, unless it's a small party. Also, that's a lot of sorcerers need for your idea. Also, your reply is kind of missing ChoirOfFire's main point.
Honestly, the problem all along isn't so much that the whole thing is so overpowered. It's obvious that it's far too contrived to work and that with as many people as it requires to make it work, those same people working in concert would pretty much doom a single level 5 character. Nope. The problem here, and the thing that makes "I Eat Toast" keep posting is found in their signature. "Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind."
People have told them that Command is not as powerful as they think, those people have proven it, and I_Eat_Toast just can't stand to change their mind. The thread has gone on now for 8 pages, and they are still arguing.
Honestly, the problem all along isn't so much that the whole thing is so overpowered. It's obvious that it's far too contrived to work and that with as many people as it requires to make it work, those same people working in concert would pretty much doom a single level 5 character. Nope. The problem here, and the thing that makes "I Eat Toast" keep posting is found in their signature. "Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind."
People have told them that Command is not as powerful as they think, those people have proven it, and I_Eat_Toast just can't stand to change their mind. The thread has gone on now for 8 pages, and they are still arguing.
That's just a meme, but take it how you want to.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
You have had an account for 3 months. 4 days ago, you made your very first post, and that was the creation of this thread. The only other post you have ever made was in Rules & Game Mechanics "Question Regarding Rune Knight's Cloud Rune" You really seem to have a lot invested in this thread. I think that's way too much to be dismissed as a simple "meme".
You have had an account for 3 months. 4 days ago, you made your very first post, and that was the creation of this thread. The only other post you have ever made was in Rules & Game Mechanics "Question Regarding Rune Knight's Cloud Rune" You really seem to have a lot invested in this thread. I think that's way too much to be dismissed as a simple "meme".
Not sure what you're implying with all that other information. Please specify. I'm glad you taken time to researching my profile, so it seems I'm not as invested as you are.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
Hey, you keep bugging me. I took a look. I wondered why you were so utterly determined. I showed people what I found out. At one point I offered a challenge. Use just one word without context as the Command spell requires, and I'd tell you what a character would do. You didn't respond. You're up to 42 post on the same subject now.
Hey, you keep bugging me. I took a look. I wondered why you were so utterly determined. I showed people what I found out. At one point I offered a challenge. Use just one word without context as the Command spell requires, and I'd tell you what a character would do. You didn't respond. You're up to 42 post on the same subject now.
Am I bugging you? I am replying to a post in a thread where I'm the OP and you named me. Or was it that I didn't reply to one of your comments that bugged you? Please specify.
Am I crazy or are we all ignoring the unwritten rule that most DMs follow for stuff like this? It's something like:
"Clearly none of this is RAI, but if there's an argument to be made that it's technically legal, then allow it under one circumstance: the party has no other options left."
Like, it's controversial if they're trying to establish this as a reliable combo to use in most encounters, sure. I certainly would tell them no. But if they're fighting a monster resistant to their regular tactics and someone's going to die... Yeah, go for it. Right? Isn't that how these things usually go?
Side note: I think all the teleportation spells really ought to have the "on the ground" wording that Scatter has. They don't, though, so they're open to exploits. Maybe that's on purpose, but I really don't think it feels like it's on purpose.
What about the alternative of simply thunderstep'ing the group away 180' ? That is not a trivial distance for the enemy to compensate for. Just with the resources required for this to work, that would seem an obvious alternative.
Thunder Step only works on one other person, maybe two (would only be 90 feet then) (a lot of people say twinned spell can't be used with thunder step, so I'm not caring to make an argument for it), so wouldn't bring the whole party out, unless it's a small party. Also, that's a lot of sorcerers need for your idea. Also, your reply is kind of missing ChoirOfFire's main point.
You have only specified 2 or maybe 3 people in the party. And a counter-point is not missing the point.
2 people needed. A counter-point isn't "this is how we run away when we are intending to do damage." The idea is that you use this idea to attack, not run away. Stay within scope. Also, there are times when you can't run away, so running away is not an option, before you suggest it is.
2 people needed. A counter-point isn't "this is how we run away when we are intending to do damage." The idea is that you use this idea to attack, not run away. Stay within scope. Also, there are times when you can't run away, so running away is not an option, before you suggest it is.
And there you have added another condition: 'When we are intending to do damage.'
This is what it comes back to for me. Is your perceived need grounds for the mechanics working how you need them to to achieve said need? My answer remains 'no.'
just stating the obvious that only you need.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
Charm Person would work also as an opening move before the fireworks start. If the party negotiates or opens with conversation then Charm Person is the way to go. My groups often like to talk before starting a fight, at the very least to throw insults or demand surrender.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Ummmm, just for the record - WHY are you using 3 people and spells to take out 1 foe? especially basing it all on a L1 spell with a wisdom save? if you need to inflict 9 or 18 dice of damage the foe is almost certain to be able to reasonably make the save anyway negating the whole exercise. Would this combination actually work under perfect conditions? probably but those same 3 casters almost certainly have a combine way to do as much or nearly as much damage in other far less contrived ways and with possibly better save chances.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
It is possible that the OP can't figure out a way for 3 lvl 5 characters to do 18d6?
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Am I crazy or are we all ignoring the unwritten rule that most DMs follow for stuff like this? It's something like:
"Clearly none of this is RAI, but if there's an argument to be made that it's technically legal, then allow it under one circumstance: the party has no other options left."
Like, it's controversial if they're trying to establish this as a reliable combo to use in most encounters, sure. I certainly would tell them no. But if they're fighting a monster resistant to their regular tactics and someone's going to die... Yeah, go for it. Right? Isn't that how these things usually go?
Side note: I think all the teleportation spells really ought to have the "on the ground" wording that Scatter has. They don't, though, so they're open to exploits. Maybe that's on purpose, but I really don't think it feels like it's on purpose.
Thunder Step only works on one other person
, maybe two (would only be 90 feet then)(a lot of people say twinned spell can't be used with thunder step, so I'm not caring to make an argument for it), so wouldn't bring the whole party out, unless it's a small party. Also, that's a lot of sorcerers need for your idea. Also, your reply is kind of missing ChoirOfFire's main point.Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
Honestly, the problem all along isn't so much that the whole thing is so overpowered. It's obvious that it's far too contrived to work and that with as many people as it requires to make it work, those same people working in concert would pretty much doom a single level 5 character. Nope. The problem here, and the thing that makes "I Eat Toast" keep posting is found in their signature. "Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind."
People have told them that Command is not as powerful as they think, those people have proven it, and I_Eat_Toast just can't stand to change their mind. The thread has gone on now for 8 pages, and they are still arguing.
<Insert clever signature here>
That's just a meme, but take it how you want to.
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
You have had an account for 3 months. 4 days ago, you made your very first post, and that was the creation of this thread. The only other post you have ever made was in Rules & Game Mechanics "Question Regarding Rune Knight's Cloud Rune" You really seem to have a lot invested in this thread. I think that's way too much to be dismissed as a simple "meme".
<Insert clever signature here>
Not sure what you're implying with all that other information. Please specify. I'm glad you taken time to researching my profile, so it seems I'm not as invested as you are.
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
Hey, you keep bugging me. I took a look. I wondered why you were so utterly determined. I showed people what I found out. At one point I offered a challenge. Use just one word without context as the Command spell requires, and I'd tell you what a character would do. You didn't respond. You're up to 42 post on the same subject now.
<Insert clever signature here>
Am I bugging you? I am replying to a post in a thread where I'm the OP and you named me. Or was it that I didn't reply to one of your comments that bugged you? Please specify.
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
2 people needed. A counter-point isn't "this is how we run away when we are intending to do damage." The idea is that you use this idea to attack, not run away. Stay within scope. Also, there are times when you can't run away, so running away is not an option, before you suggest it is.
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
No. Rule of cool is fine but not when it can't reasonably work.
It is my job to to help them have fun, but not if they throw rules out the window.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
just stating the obvious that only you need.
Command is the most powerful level 1 spell; change my mind.
This isn't cool anyway. It's rules lawyer cheese.