Context: My PCs just finished a pretty complicated and intense adventure that involved breaking into a Fire Giant Hold (for those of you who are familiar with Storm King's Thunder, it was Ironslag). The PCs had two objectives: (1) they needed to recover a primordial that is native to the elemental plane of chaos. The fire giants stole this primordial from the dwarves of Gauntlgrym. (2) the PCs also needed to steal an important magical item owned by the Fire Giant Lord (his conch of teleportation). To recover this fire primordial, the dwarves of Gauntlgrym allowed the party to borrow an Iron Flask, which I said was one of only three that existed in the world....the fire giants had one of the others, which is how they stole the primordial originally).
Anyhoo...the encounter is a serious threat. The keep is full of fire giants, hell hounds, salamanders, orcs and ogres....but the PCs planned well. They were able to create a sound plan that got most of the beings in the Fire Giant keep outside and preoccupied. All except the fire giant family in charge of the keep, a drow wizard, and some drow elite warriors. So the threat is reduced, but these are still enough to kill a group of PCs in straight up combat. Yet, the PCs managed to plan well and get through mostly unscathed (only one was down to death saving throws).
The outcome of the adventure: The group managed to steal the important magic item (the conch of teleportation), BUT could not get the primordial. Instead they (and here's where I screwed up) trapped the fire giant lord's son in the Iron flask to use as a bargaining chip, which I allowed. This is where we ended the adventure until next time.
The adventure was so intense and complicated (the keep is many floors, some with many rooms...the party was split up, there were several NPCs for me to run, etc..). All of this kept me wrapped up in the moment and I completely forgot that the flask doesn't work on beings native to the plane that you try and trap them on. So, fire giants...native to the material plane...can't be trapped in an iron flask. The fire giant son they had trapped, was something I should not have allowed (DOH!!!!). The problem is made worse by the fact that, weeks after this adventure, one of the players brought this incongruity up to me. So now it has to be addressed sooner than I wanted (I was hoping a good solution would come to me before the PCs realized my mistake, but one hasn't yet).
Sorry for all the context! Here's where I appreciate any thoughts you have: I'm not sure what to do about this. As of now, my only (far-fetched) idea is to say that the son happened to be born on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Thus, even though it technically still isn't supposed to trap him because his species is native to the Material Plane, somehow it worked (a randomness of magic because the child was born on another plane). The only other option I could think of......because I've stated that there are only three of these flasks in existence in this world, I thought about stating that each was created for a slightly different purpose: one was created only to hold a being native to a plane other than where it currently exists.....one was created only to hold a being that currently exists on the same plane as whomever holds the flask (regardless of where it is native to)...and one was created only to hold a being that has died in order to keep them in stasis for resurrection... Or something. Not sure about that last option.
As an aside, the dwarves of gauntlgrym have already told them that the flask must be returned immediately after it is used for its intended purpose....and my PCs are pretty good at following rules like this. So I don't think the flask could become an overly powerful magic item for them that could break the game.
I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts folks on how to handle this. I have come to this forum several times with problems like this (usually self-inflicted :b) and have always gotten great feedback.....
Thanks in advance.
To make things easier, here is the description of the item in the DMG
Iron Flask
This iron flask is engraved with powerful glyphs that confine Maegera the Dawn Titan inside. Many small chains loop over the stopper, holding the flask closed.
While empty: you can use an action to speak the flask’s command word, targeting a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you. If the target is native to a plane of existence other than the one you’re on, the target must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or be trapped in the flask. If the target has been trapped by the flask before, it has advantage on the saving throw. Once trapped, a creature remains in the flask until released. The flask can hold only one creature at a time. A creature trapped in the flask doesn’t need to breathe, eat, or drink and doesn’t age.
While occupied: you can use an action to remove the flask’s stopper and release the creature the flask contains. The creature is friendly to you and your companions for 1 hour and obeys your commands for that duration. If you give no commands or give it a command that is likely to result in its death, it defends itself but otherwise takes no actions. At the end of the duration, the creature acts in accordance with its normal disposition and alignment.
An Identify spell reveals that a creature is inside the flask, but the only way to determine the type of creature is to open the flask. A newly discovered bottle might already contain a creature chosen by the DM or determined randomly
Honestly, the birth place (and potential ancestry) of the son is the only way out I can think of, without going back in time. Personally I’d also consider making him half fiend myself.
If the iron flask can't work on someone native to this plane, and the son is native to this plane, they've just discovered either someone else in disguise as the son, or the son was swapped like a changeling. Now they have information to bargain with as well.
All you need to do is patch the storyline that the players don't know about so that there is no inconsistency with the operation of the Iron Flask.
The Iron Flask only works on creatures from another plane. The specific term is "native". The DM can interpret that in whatever way makes the most sense for their story. In this case, the fire giant's son is "native" to another plane.
- This could mean that the son was born on another plane. That could make him a "native" of that plane even if his species as a whole doesn't live there.
- It could mean that the son's genealogy contains some aspect from another plane making him an eligible target for the flask. The fire giant could be part fire elemental (efreeti or similar), the fire giant's son could be part fiend, perhaps as a surprise twist the fire giant's son could be part celestial - choice could depend on the son's disposition and how it has affected their behavior. As someone else mentioned, the son's heritage could also be a secret giving the party more bargaining power. However, in context, I am not sure that having the son trapped is that useful.
As written ...
"If Zalto has Maegera in his custody (see the "Special Delivery" section later in this chapter), the characters can demand that he surrender the fire primordial. This he won't do, for the loss of Maegera would thwart his plan to rise to the top of the ordning. If he must choose between his son and his destiny, Zalto chooses the latter. Not even his wife can convince him otherwise."
... though the DM can change up the story if they want or need to ...
P.S. At this point the PC's should be about 8th level so although it is a challenge they should be able to deal with most of the threats. However, you mentioned the party being split up which can often be a problem by itself since the individuals can easily encounter threats they aren't able to deal with.
This all helps give me ideas for how to deal with the situation!
Part of my problem also stems from the fact that I gave them a handout with the Iron Flask's abilities, so they know what it can do. Somehow the "native to plane currently on"- thing just slipped everyone's mind....especially mine. But, aside from feeling a little foolish that I screwed that up, at least the PCs don't know I screwed up :) , and I think some of the ideas above could actually lead to some interesting interactions AND perhaps even side quests. So thanks again!
David42:
yeah...the way things have worked in my version of SKT, the PCs have spent a lot of time in Gauntlgrym (homebrew content for one PCs backstory and also content involving drow to more tightly connect the story with LMoP, which is where the party started before SKT). As a result of all this, King Bruenor has helped the PCs by both allowing them use of Gauntlgrym's Iron Flask and also by creating a distraction in front of Ironslag (staging an assault to get Maegera back)...which cleared out a lot of the critters from inside Ironslag. Zalto sent his minions to meet the dwarves...but even though the duke loves to fight...doesn't want to risk losing Maegera (and in my version, the fire giants are still working on prepping the adamantine forge to hold the primordial. So he still has Maegera in the Iron Flask from the drow, which is tied to his belt). The group is in communication with Bruenor remotely (magic earbands that he's gifted the PCs to communicate with him over distance). Bruenor has flat out told them that he strongly believes Zalto wont bargain. As Bruenor said: "Zalto can make more sons....but there may never be another opportunity to elevate all fire giants to a higher rank in the ordning". But, that's on them to figure out. Needless to say:....the PCs currently have their hands full!
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Hi All,
I recently screwed up with an Iron Flask.
Context: My PCs just finished a pretty complicated and intense adventure that involved breaking into a Fire Giant Hold (for those of you who are familiar with Storm King's Thunder, it was Ironslag). The PCs had two objectives: (1) they needed to recover a primordial that is native to the elemental plane of chaos. The fire giants stole this primordial from the dwarves of Gauntlgrym. (2) the PCs also needed to steal an important magical item owned by the Fire Giant Lord (his conch of teleportation). To recover this fire primordial, the dwarves of Gauntlgrym allowed the party to borrow an Iron Flask, which I said was one of only three that existed in the world....the fire giants had one of the others, which is how they stole the primordial originally).
Anyhoo...the encounter is a serious threat. The keep is full of fire giants, hell hounds, salamanders, orcs and ogres....but the PCs planned well. They were able to create a sound plan that got most of the beings in the Fire Giant keep outside and preoccupied. All except the fire giant family in charge of the keep, a drow wizard, and some drow elite warriors. So the threat is reduced, but these are still enough to kill a group of PCs in straight up combat. Yet, the PCs managed to plan well and get through mostly unscathed (only one was down to death saving throws).
The outcome of the adventure: The group managed to steal the important magic item (the conch of teleportation), BUT could not get the primordial. Instead they (and here's where I screwed up) trapped the fire giant lord's son in the Iron flask to use as a bargaining chip, which I allowed. This is where we ended the adventure until next time.
The adventure was so intense and complicated (the keep is many floors, some with many rooms...the party was split up, there were several NPCs for me to run, etc..). All of this kept me wrapped up in the moment and I completely forgot that the flask doesn't work on beings native to the plane that you try and trap them on. So, fire giants...native to the material plane...can't be trapped in an iron flask. The fire giant son they had trapped, was something I should not have allowed (DOH!!!!). The problem is made worse by the fact that, weeks after this adventure, one of the players brought this incongruity up to me. So now it has to be addressed sooner than I wanted (I was hoping a good solution would come to me before the PCs realized my mistake, but one hasn't yet).
Sorry for all the context! Here's where I appreciate any thoughts you have: I'm not sure what to do about this. As of now, my only (far-fetched) idea is to say that the son happened to be born on the Elemental Plane of Fire. Thus, even though it technically still isn't supposed to trap him because his species is native to the Material Plane, somehow it worked (a randomness of magic because the child was born on another plane). The only other option I could think of......because I've stated that there are only three of these flasks in existence in this world, I thought about stating that each was created for a slightly different purpose: one was created only to hold a being native to a plane other than where it currently exists.....one was created only to hold a being that currently exists on the same plane as whomever holds the flask (regardless of where it is native to)...and one was created only to hold a being that has died in order to keep them in stasis for resurrection... Or something. Not sure about that last option.
As an aside, the dwarves of gauntlgrym have already told them that the flask must be returned immediately after it is used for its intended purpose....and my PCs are pretty good at following rules like this. So I don't think the flask could become an overly powerful magic item for them that could break the game.
I'd greatly appreciate any thoughts folks on how to handle this. I have come to this forum several times with problems like this (usually self-inflicted :b) and have always gotten great feedback.....
Thanks in advance.
To make things easier, here is the description of the item in the DMG
Iron Flask
This iron flask is engraved with powerful glyphs that confine Maegera the Dawn Titan inside. Many small chains loop over the stopper, holding the flask closed.
While empty: you can use an action to speak the flask’s command word, targeting a creature that you can see within 60 feet of you. If the target is native to a plane of existence other than the one you’re on, the target must succeed on a DC 17 Wisdom saving throw or be trapped in the flask. If the target has been trapped by the flask before, it has advantage on the saving throw. Once trapped, a creature remains in the flask until released. The flask can hold only one creature at a time. A creature trapped in the flask doesn’t need to breathe, eat, or drink and doesn’t age.
While occupied: you can use an action to remove the flask’s stopper and release the creature the flask contains. The creature is friendly to you and your companions for 1 hour and obeys your commands for that duration. If you give no commands or give it a command that is likely to result in its death, it defends itself but otherwise takes no actions. At the end of the duration, the creature acts in accordance with its normal disposition and alignment.
An Identify spell reveals that a creature is inside the flask, but the only way to determine the type of creature is to open the flask. A newly discovered bottle might already contain a creature chosen by the DM or determined randomly
Honestly, the birth place (and potential ancestry) of the son is the only way out I can think of, without going back in time. Personally I’d also consider making him half fiend myself.
Probably the most likely non-Prime ancestry would be part Efreeti (and born somewhere on the Elemental Plane of Fire).
If the iron flask can't work on someone native to this plane, and the son is native to this plane, they've just discovered either someone else in disguise as the son, or the son was swapped like a changeling. Now they have information to bargain with as well.
Birgit | Shifter | Sorcerer | Dragonlords
Shayone | Hobgoblin | Sorcerer | Netherdeep
You are the DM. You are in charge :)
All you need to do is patch the storyline that the players don't know about so that there is no inconsistency with the operation of the Iron Flask.
The Iron Flask only works on creatures from another plane. The specific term is "native". The DM can interpret that in whatever way makes the most sense for their story. In this case, the fire giant's son is "native" to another plane.
- This could mean that the son was born on another plane. That could make him a "native" of that plane even if his species as a whole doesn't live there.
- It could mean that the son's genealogy contains some aspect from another plane making him an eligible target for the flask. The fire giant could be part fire elemental (efreeti or similar), the fire giant's son could be part fiend, perhaps as a surprise twist the fire giant's son could be part celestial - choice could depend on the son's disposition and how it has affected their behavior. As someone else mentioned, the son's heritage could also be a secret giving the party more bargaining power. However, in context, I am not sure that having the son trapped is that useful.
As written ...
"If Zalto has Maegera in his custody (see the "Special Delivery" section later in this chapter), the characters can demand that he surrender the fire primordial. This he won't do, for the loss of Maegera would thwart his plan to rise to the top of the ordning. If he must choose between his son and his destiny, Zalto chooses the latter. Not even his wife can convince him otherwise."
... though the DM can change up the story if they want or need to ...
P.S. At this point the PC's should be about 8th level so although it is a challenge they should be able to deal with most of the threats. However, you mentioned the party being split up which can often be a problem by itself since the individuals can easily encounter threats they aren't able to deal with.
Hi All,
Thanks everyone for your thoughts!
This all helps give me ideas for how to deal with the situation!
Part of my problem also stems from the fact that I gave them a handout with the Iron Flask's abilities, so they know what it can do. Somehow the "native to plane currently on"- thing just slipped everyone's mind....especially mine. But, aside from feeling a little foolish that I screwed that up, at least the PCs don't know I screwed up :) , and I think some of the ideas above could actually lead to some interesting interactions AND perhaps even side quests. So thanks again!
David42:
yeah...the way things have worked in my version of SKT, the PCs have spent a lot of time in Gauntlgrym (homebrew content for one PCs backstory and also content involving drow to more tightly connect the story with LMoP, which is where the party started before SKT). As a result of all this, King Bruenor has helped the PCs by both allowing them use of Gauntlgrym's Iron Flask and also by creating a distraction in front of Ironslag (staging an assault to get Maegera back)...which cleared out a lot of the critters from inside Ironslag. Zalto sent his minions to meet the dwarves...but even though the duke loves to fight...doesn't want to risk losing Maegera (and in my version, the fire giants are still working on prepping the adamantine forge to hold the primordial. So he still has Maegera in the Iron Flask from the drow, which is tied to his belt). The group is in communication with Bruenor remotely (magic earbands that he's gifted the PCs to communicate with him over distance). Bruenor has flat out told them that he strongly believes Zalto wont bargain. As Bruenor said: "Zalto can make more sons....but there may never be another opportunity to elevate all fire giants to a higher rank in the ordning". But, that's on them to figure out. Needless to say:....the PCs currently have their hands full!