I would also bet on Arcane Archer. Jeremy Crawford likes to talk about how approval for this or that subclass has increased, and I'm convinced that an Arcane Archer can be widely accepted if they do things right. And it's obvious that the former Arcane Archer didn't make the cut.
The shots have enough kick that if you give them more uses per rest you’d probably have to make them only refresh on long rests to balance. Or reduce the power in exchange for more uses, at which point you might as well go Battlemaster. Arguably the bigger issue might be the use of INT for the DC, but between the DEX focus for attacks and so presumably AC and Fighter’s extra ASI, that’s less of an issue. Maybe bump Curving Shot to 10th level and come up with one more full feature for the subclass at 7th.
What I've heard from a lot of people with experience with the class is that the usage is DEFINETELY an issue with the class. Instead of feeling like a cool magical archer they feel like a fighter that occasionally can do cool things. While I don't think that giving 1~2 more usages at higher levels would break anything, maybe going with a more psi knight design for arrow recovery would make the class feel better.
Also, can we make this class work with ALL ranged weapons? Limiting it to just bows doesn't really do anything for the class.
The shots have enough kick that if you give them more uses per rest you’d probably have to make them only refresh on long rests to balance. Or reduce the power in exchange for more uses, at which point you might as well go Battlemaster. Arguably the bigger issue might be the use of INT for the DC, but between the DEX focus for attacks and so presumably AC and Fighter’s extra ASI, that’s less of an issue. Maybe bump Curving Shot to 10th level and come up with one more full feature for the subclass at 7th.
What I've heard from a lot of people with experience with the class is that the usage is DEFINETELY an issue with the class. Instead of feeling like a cool magical archer they feel like a fighter that occasionally can do cool things. While I don't think that giving 1~2 more usages at higher levels would break anything, maybe going with a more psi knight design for arrow recovery would make the class feel better.
Also, can we make this class work with ALL ranged weapons? Limiting it to just bows doesn't really do anything for the class.
Umm, they are a Fighter who occasionally does something magical; that’s kinda the point. The more comprehensive blend of magic and archery is the Ranger’s bit. Like I said, if you just want general cool moves, there’s Battlemaster. And Rune Knight gets a few more uses of the runes at higher levels, but only two of the runes involve damaging creatures. An extra shot at level 10 would probably help with pacing as runs get longer, but in general you’re not going find any other Fighter subclasses that offer comparable effects with greater frequency.
I would also bet on Arcane Archer. Jeremy Crawford likes to talk about how approval for this or that subclass has increased, and I'm convinced that an Arcane Archer can be widely accepted if they do things right. And it's obvious that the former Arcane Archer didn't make the cut.
I think that's because when I look at arcane archer, I am always left scratching my head and wondering why on earth I would play it. It just looks so BAD. When I want an arcane archer, I feel like warlock simply does it better with eldritch smites.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Well lets examine the quadrants. They said with the fighter the quadrants are less thematic and more "play style". The champion represents the "simple play style". I would say Battle Master represents a more complex style fighter gameplay style and of course the eldritch knight adds magic.
From the ones we have already seen, I am pretty sure it is either going to be Cavalier, Rune Knight, or Arcane Archer. The Cavalier and Rune Knight representing the "protect allies" play style and the Arcane Archer being the "ranged combatant" style.
We do have 2 more play tests. This one they are going to be with the 3 that we know. They may STILL bring back some of the other classes if they feel a new test is needed for them. Wizards will probably know that more when they start narrowing down what is going to be the fighter's 4th, because the video made it sound like they may not know yet.
Arcane Archer would be nice with a refresh. And looking at the last UA Warlock maybe AA could have something like Magical Cunning where once per LR they can do something to regain a use of the shots
For Arcane Archer, At the level the fighter gets three attacks maybe if he is still limited to three arcane shots he can refresh when rolling initiative.
Three arrow shots a turn and or combat lasting a few rounds the 3 shot limit may not bee too bad if it refreshes when rolling initiative.
The shots have enough kick that if you give them more uses per rest you’d probably have to make them only refresh on long rests to balance. Or reduce the power in exchange for more uses, at which point you might as well go Battlemaster. Arguably the bigger issue might be the use of INT for the DC, but between the DEX focus for attacks and so presumably AC and Fighter’s extra ASI, that’s less of an issue. Maybe bump Curving Shot to 10th level and come up with one more full feature for the subclass at 7th.
I disagree - two arrows per short rest for what is in most games going to be your entire career is insanely miserly, and once you've burned through them, you're a fighter with a cantrip. They need more shots.
I don't think more arrows per short rest would need to be rebalanced at all. At best I would consider tweaking the most powerful arrow (Grasping), and it's really only that powerful if all your allies take advantage of it with forced movement effects.
The shots have enough kick that if you give them more uses per rest you’d probably have to make them only refresh on long rests to balance. Or reduce the power in exchange for more uses, at which point you might as well go Battlemaster. Arguably the bigger issue might be the use of INT for the DC, but between the DEX focus for attacks and so presumably AC and Fighter’s extra ASI, that’s less of an issue. Maybe bump Curving Shot to 10th level and come up with one more full feature for the subclass at 7th.
I disagree - two arrows per short rest for what is in most games going to be your entire career is insanely miserly, and once you've burned through them, you're a fighter with a cantrip. They need more shots.
I don't think more arrows per short rest would need to be rebalanced at all. At best I would consider tweaking the most powerful arrow (Grasping), and it's really only that powerful if all your allies take advantage of it with forced movement effects.
You're a Fighter with a cantrip who can also spend a bonus action to reroll one miss per turn so long as a second target is within 60 ft. And, as I said, I'm open to them getting another shot later, but the much touted Rune Knight is not actually getting much more damage out of their powers. They only have two damaging runes, and it takes the same level AA's refresh if they roll initiative on empty for them to get more than one use per SR from a rune as well. Could maybe let them add a d4 of elemental damage once per turn if you really feel they're suffering from having 3 less damage a round on basic attacks (RK requires activating a mode with limited uses per LR, AA would presumably be unlimited as a mode wouldn't make sense).
The shots have enough kick that if you give them more uses per rest you’d probably have to make them only refresh on long rests to balance. Or reduce the power in exchange for more uses, at which point you might as well go Battlemaster. Arguably the bigger issue might be the use of INT for the DC, but between the DEX focus for attacks and so presumably AC and Fighter’s extra ASI, that’s less of an issue. Maybe bump Curving Shot to 10th level and come up with one more full feature for the subclass at 7th.
I disagree - two arrows per short rest for what is in most games going to be your entire career is insanely miserly, and once you've burned through them, you're a fighter with a cantrip. They need more shots.
I don't think more arrows per short rest would need to be rebalanced at all. At best I would consider tweaking the most powerful arrow (Grasping), and it's really only that powerful if all your allies take advantage of it with forced movement effects.
You're a Fighter with a cantrip who can also spend a bonus action to reroll one miss per turn so long as a second target is within 60 ft. And, as I said, I'm open to them getting another shot later, but the much touted Rune Knight is not actually getting much more damage out of their powers. They only have two damaging runes, and it takes the same level AA's refresh if they roll initiative on empty for them to get more than one use per SR from a rune as well. Could maybe let them add a d4 of elemental damage once per turn if you really feel they're suffering from having 3 less damage a round on basic attacks (RK requires activating a mode with limited uses per LR, AA would presumably be unlimited as a mode wouldn't make sense).
Kind of feels like a warlock. You have two shots (pact slots) then done until a SR. But Warlocks also have invocations along with their subclass features.
Curved shot is nice but it feels like AA could use something more, preferably Arcane Shots, as that’s what the subclass is designed around.
In 5eR I would assume Magic Arrow would just deal force damage. And a scaling Ever-Ready Shot starting at a lower level would help. Then a different feature at 15. Curved shot could stay the same.
Honestly, I'd like to see them do something new, and I'd like it to fulfill the tank/protector playstyle. Champion is the "easy" option that is basically "go hit 'em". Battle Master is the "complex" option that features tactics & planning. Eldritch Knight is the magical option for gish players.
But I'd like to see a tank. Something different than a Barbarian or a Paladin. A Fighter that has features to enhance armor for AC and damage reduction. Some kind of a "taunt" feature to focus attacks on the Fighter. Maybe a feature to increase a shield's efficacy. I don't know 🤷♂️.
But it does seem like the classic "tank" in armor is missing from 5e. Barbarians are all about a huge HP pool and damage reduction. Paladins do have armor, but their focus is on healing and Saving Throw enhancements.
It may be that 5e doesn't really have a place for the Tank, though. It kinda seems like the game is veered toward the "best defense is a good offense" philosophy. I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe it just seems that way because there's not much representation for classes/subclasses designed to pull and take damage?
Honestly, I'd like to see them do something new, and I'd like it to fulfill the tank/protector playstyle. Champion is the "easy" option that is basically "go hit 'em". Battle Master is the "complex" option that features tactics & planning. Eldritch Knight is the magical option for gish players.
But I'd like to see a tank. Something different than a Barbarian or a Paladin. A Fighter that has features to enhance armor for AC and damage reduction. Some kind of a "taunt" feature to focus attacks on the Fighter. Maybe a feature to increase a shield's efficacy. I don't know 🤷♂️.
But it does seem like the classic "tank" in armor is missing from 5e. Barbarians are all about a huge HP pool and damage reduction. Paladins do have armor, but their focus is on healing and Saving Throw enhancements.
It may be that 5e doesn't really have a place for the Tank, though. It kinda seems like the game is veered toward the "best defense is a good offense" philosophy. I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe it just seems that way because there's not much representation for classes/subclasses designed to pull and take damage?
You're describing Cavalier. Their third level feature, Unwavering Mark, lets them mark a creature when they hit them with an attack, imposing disadvantage on any attacks the creature makes against targets other than the Cavalier and letting the Cavalier make a special attack with extra damage as a bonus action if the creature deals damage to anybody else. All their other features are basically based around protecting allies and being better at opportunity attacks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Honestly, I'd like to see them do something new, and I'd like it to fulfill the tank/protector playstyle. Champion is the "easy" option that is basically "go hit 'em". Battle Master is the "complex" option that features tactics & planning. Eldritch Knight is the magical option for gish players.
But I'd like to see a tank. Something different than a Barbarian or a Paladin. A Fighter that has features to enhance armor for AC and damage reduction. Some kind of a "taunt" feature to focus attacks on the Fighter. Maybe a feature to increase a shield's efficacy. I don't know 🤷♂️.
But it does seem like the classic "tank" in armor is missing from 5e. Barbarians are all about a huge HP pool and damage reduction. Paladins do have armor, but their focus is on healing and Saving Throw enhancements.
It may be that 5e doesn't really have a place for the Tank, though. It kinda seems like the game is veered toward the "best defense is a good offense" philosophy. I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe it just seems that way because there's not much representation for classes/subclasses designed to pull and take damage?
You're describing Cavalier. Their third level feature, Unwavering Mark, lets them mark a creature when they hit them with an attack, imposing disadvantage on any attacks the creature makes against targets other than the Cavalier and letting the Cavalier make a special attack with extra damage as a bonus action if the creature deals damage to anybody else. All their other features are basically based around protecting allies and being better at opportunity attacks.
Cavalier is a class that I started to look at in a much more positive light when I separated it in my mind from 'mounted combat'. Yes, people call it Sentinel, the class, but there's a lot there to recommend it as a protector/tank
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I’ve always seen Cavalier as a solid class if you ignore there mounted combat flavor, but I’ve always hated that they don’t have a built in method to gain mounts. I can’t think of a good non magical way to do this myself, but it always annoyed me.
The Arcane Archer has many problems that would be easy to solve. One of them is that you have few Arcane Shoots to choose from, and most of them are bad. Then there are only a couple of valid options left. You also have few uses, 2 per short rest, so most of the day you will be a normal archer (unless you SR at will, but we won't go into that again).
So I would give him a longer list of arcane shoots or at least make them all useful. And I would allow more uses for these. Perhaps I would put level requirements on the arcane shoots, leaving the level 3 ones that could be used once per turn as if it were a cantrip from a certain level. And maybe he'd need some use for his arcane shoots outside of combat.
The Arcane Archer has many problems that would be easy to solve. One of them is that you have few Arcane Shoots to choose from, and most of them are bad. Then there are only a couple of valid options left. You also have few uses, 2 per short rest, so most of the day you will be a normal archer (unless you SR at will, but we won't go into that again).
So I would give him a longer list of arcane shoots or at least make them all useful. And I would allow more uses for these. Perhaps I would put level requirements on the arcane shoots, leaving the level 3 ones that could be used once per turn as if it were a cantrip from a certain level. And maybe he'd need some use for his arcane shoots outside of combat.
I am highly disappointed in the arcane archer. It does not compare favorably to a battlemaster, as that spec works with a bow (and a crossbow) [and a javelin] {and whatever other weapon you could think of}. Except for, like, two or three of the arrows, just taking Archer + Sharpshooter is better for most stuff. It needs more oven time.
Personally I would prefer the 4th subclass to be Cavalier or Arcane Archer.
For Arcane Archer, without a doubt, they should equate the usefulness of each option more, and add a couple more, perhaps 1 or 2 that are NOT so much combat but can also be used as utility. And regarding its VERY limited shots, perhaps ONE possible measure to help with this problem is to relate it to Second Wind, for example:
Allow, through an ACTION, to recharge all Arcane Shoots (or TWO if they expand their initial capacity to 3 Arcane Shoots?), consuming a use of Second Wind in the process.
Another option:
Each time you consume your Second Wind (including with Tactical Mind), you additionally regain ONE use of Arcane Shoot.
Personally I prefer the 1st, being mainly an Archer, he will usually be in the rear, Therefore he will have less chance of taking damage to need to heal, so it is less difficult to get rid of some uses of Second Wind, to recharge all the Arcane Shoots consumed to continue having fun as an archer with extra effects.
I could see adding more shots, especially low level ones. Of the existing shots some of the stronger ones could have level requirements. And they should have access to all shots that they meet the level requirements for. Or if that’s too much, still choose a limited number known but then have a handful of basic shots that are always on (just class features like Curved Shot) that don’t have to be too powerful but still gives the feel like you are incorporating the arcane in your archery.
I would be fine if they made them long rest recovery but you got more as you level and with a quick recharge to gain uses back 1/LR.
I would also bet on Arcane Archer. Jeremy Crawford likes to talk about how approval for this or that subclass has increased, and I'm convinced that an Arcane Archer can be widely accepted if they do things right. And it's obvious that the former Arcane Archer didn't make the cut.
What I've heard from a lot of people with experience with the class is that the usage is DEFINETELY an issue with the class. Instead of feeling like a cool magical archer they feel like a fighter that occasionally can do cool things. While I don't think that giving 1~2 more usages at higher levels would break anything, maybe going with a more psi knight design for arrow recovery would make the class feel better.
Also, can we make this class work with ALL ranged weapons? Limiting it to just bows doesn't really do anything for the class.
Umm, they are a Fighter who occasionally does something magical; that’s kinda the point. The more comprehensive blend of magic and archery is the Ranger’s bit. Like I said, if you just want general cool moves, there’s Battlemaster. And Rune Knight gets a few more uses of the runes at higher levels, but only two of the runes involve damaging creatures. An extra shot at level 10 would probably help with pacing as runs get longer, but in general you’re not going find any other Fighter subclasses that offer comparable effects with greater frequency.
I think that's because when I look at arcane archer, I am always left scratching my head and wondering why on earth I would play it. It just looks so BAD. When I want an arcane archer, I feel like warlock simply does it better with eldritch smites.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Well lets examine the quadrants. They said with the fighter the quadrants are less thematic and more "play style". The champion represents the "simple play style". I would say Battle Master represents a more complex style fighter gameplay style and of course the eldritch knight adds magic.
From the ones we have already seen, I am pretty sure it is either going to be Cavalier, Rune Knight, or Arcane Archer. The Cavalier and Rune Knight representing the "protect allies" play style and the Arcane Archer being the "ranged combatant" style.
We do have 2 more play tests. This one they are going to be with the 3 that we know. They may STILL bring back some of the other classes if they feel a new test is needed for them. Wizards will probably know that more when they start narrowing down what is going to be the fighter's 4th, because the video made it sound like they may not know yet.
I want arcane archer with more than 3 arcane shots for the life of the class.
Arcane Archer would be nice with a refresh. And looking at the last UA Warlock maybe AA could have something like Magical Cunning where once per LR they can do something to regain a use of the shots
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
For Arcane Archer, At the level the fighter gets three attacks maybe if he is still limited to three arcane shots he can refresh when rolling initiative.
Three arrow shots a turn and or combat lasting a few rounds the 3 shot limit may not bee too bad if it refreshes when rolling initiative.
I disagree - two arrows per short rest for what is in most games going to be your entire career is insanely miserly, and once you've burned through them, you're a fighter with a cantrip. They need more shots.
I don't think more arrows per short rest would need to be rebalanced at all. At best I would consider tweaking the most powerful arrow (Grasping), and it's really only that powerful if all your allies take advantage of it with forced movement effects.
You're a Fighter with a cantrip who can also spend a bonus action to reroll one miss per turn so long as a second target is within 60 ft. And, as I said, I'm open to them getting another shot later, but the much touted Rune Knight is not actually getting much more damage out of their powers. They only have two damaging runes, and it takes the same level AA's refresh if they roll initiative on empty for them to get more than one use per SR from a rune as well. Could maybe let them add a d4 of elemental damage once per turn if you really feel they're suffering from having 3 less damage a round on basic attacks (RK requires activating a mode with limited uses per LR, AA would presumably be unlimited as a mode wouldn't make sense).
Kind of feels like a warlock. You have two shots (pact slots) then done until a SR. But Warlocks also have invocations along with their subclass features.
Curved shot is nice but it feels like AA could use something more, preferably Arcane Shots, as that’s what the subclass is designed around.
In 5eR I would assume Magic Arrow would just deal force damage. And a scaling Ever-Ready Shot starting at a lower level would help. Then a different feature at 15. Curved shot could stay the same.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Honestly, I'd like to see them do something new, and I'd like it to fulfill the tank/protector playstyle. Champion is the "easy" option that is basically "go hit 'em". Battle Master is the "complex" option that features tactics & planning. Eldritch Knight is the magical option for gish players.
But I'd like to see a tank. Something different than a Barbarian or a Paladin. A Fighter that has features to enhance armor for AC and damage reduction. Some kind of a "taunt" feature to focus attacks on the Fighter. Maybe a feature to increase a shield's efficacy. I don't know 🤷♂️.
But it does seem like the classic "tank" in armor is missing from 5e. Barbarians are all about a huge HP pool and damage reduction. Paladins do have armor, but their focus is on healing and Saving Throw enhancements.
It may be that 5e doesn't really have a place for the Tank, though. It kinda seems like the game is veered toward the "best defense is a good offense" philosophy. I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong. Or maybe it just seems that way because there's not much representation for classes/subclasses designed to pull and take damage?
You're describing Cavalier. Their third level feature, Unwavering Mark, lets them mark a creature when they hit them with an attack, imposing disadvantage on any attacks the creature makes against targets other than the Cavalier and letting the Cavalier make a special attack with extra damage as a bonus action if the creature deals damage to anybody else. All their other features are basically based around protecting allies and being better at opportunity attacks.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Cavalier is a class that I started to look at in a much more positive light when I separated it in my mind from 'mounted combat'. Yes, people call it Sentinel, the class, but there's a lot there to recommend it as a protector/tank
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I’ve always seen Cavalier as a solid class if you ignore there mounted combat flavor, but I’ve always hated that they don’t have a built in method to gain mounts. I can’t think of a good non magical way to do this myself, but it always annoyed me.
Samurai would be sweet
The Arcane Archer has many problems that would be easy to solve. One of them is that you have few Arcane Shoots to choose from, and most of them are bad. Then there are only a couple of valid options left. You also have few uses, 2 per short rest, so most of the day you will be a normal archer (unless you SR at will, but we won't go into that again).
So I would give him a longer list of arcane shoots or at least make them all useful. And I would allow more uses for these. Perhaps I would put level requirements on the arcane shoots, leaving the level 3 ones that could be used once per turn as if it were a cantrip from a certain level. And maybe he'd need some use for his arcane shoots outside of combat.
I am highly disappointed in the arcane archer. It does not compare favorably to a battlemaster, as that spec works with a bow (and a crossbow) [and a javelin] {and whatever other weapon you could think of}. Except for, like, two or three of the arrows, just taking Archer + Sharpshooter is better for most stuff. It needs more oven time.
Personally I would prefer the 4th subclass to be Cavalier or Arcane Archer.
For Arcane Archer, without a doubt, they should equate the usefulness of each option more, and add a couple more, perhaps 1 or 2 that are NOT so much combat but can also be used as utility. And regarding its VERY limited shots, perhaps ONE possible measure to help with this problem is to relate it to Second Wind, for example:
Another option:
Personally I prefer the 1st, being mainly an Archer, he will usually be in the rear, Therefore he will have less chance of taking damage to need to heal, so it is less difficult to get rid of some uses of Second Wind, to recharge all the Arcane Shoots consumed to continue having fun as an archer with extra effects.
I could see adding more shots, especially low level ones. Of the existing shots some of the stronger ones could have level requirements. And they should have access to all shots that they meet the level requirements for. Or if that’s too much, still choose a limited number known but then have a handful of basic shots that are always on (just class features like Curved Shot) that don’t have to be too powerful but still gives the feel like you are incorporating the arcane in your archery.
I would be fine if they made them long rest recovery but you got more as you level and with a quick recharge to gain uses back 1/LR.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?