Unfortunately, this was my first introduction to online DnD. I met a guy on Roll20. He seemed nice enough and helpful, and he immediately had me on his Discord channel. Within minutes, he had three of us for a paid game that was advertised as starting that day, Nov 27th. He had us pay him $20GBP ($27 USD) on PayPal, but only if we paid him as 'Friends & Family' versus as a business or service. You see, PayPal has no consumer recourse if someone pays as 'Friends & Family'). All ready to play, he now indicates he needs time to prep, etc. The game is postponed to Dec 18th. What? Wish I would've known that before. Most of a week goes by and he won't engage us regarding characters or anything, and then he postpones the game to a third week and tells us to proceed and make characters for his game. Some of us took time off work for this game, and the apparent morning of, he delays another two weeks to January 1st. I was getting frustrated and asked him for a refund because I had so much free time off work in December, and now I've paid for something he never provided. He indicated he couldn't afford to pay me back and he needs to add more players so he can pay his bills. He states 'no refunds'. To me, 'no refunds' seems fine so long as the DM honors his end of the transaction - the game at the specified time and date. I can understand things come up, but we can see he's playing a couple of other games with people over these 6+ weeks now, and he continues to recruit people to games that aren't being played. Through the rest of November, December, and the beginning of January I see people being added, and kicked off his Discord when they complain about scheduled games that don't happen. Finally, last night Jan 8th I asked again for a refund... that his Nov 27th, changed to Dec 11th, changed to Dec 18th, changed to Jan 1st, changed to Jan 2nd, changed to Jan 15th, and now apparently 'early February' was totally unreasonable. He didn't reply, instead he kicked me off his Discord and blocked me on Roll20.
I contact PayPal with my screenshots of our conversation and they say while they can look into his business operations running under 'friends & family' and shut him down off PayPal, they can't refund money under Consumer Protection Act because I paid him as a friend (curious if this is part of his operation?). PayPal did encourage me to contact the cyber crimes unit, which I have done in the UK (his locale) and with the FBI (because PayPal is US jurisdiction). Seems excessive for a mere $20GBP, but seeing people booted off his Discord (and without refunds), I suspect he's done this to ten or more people in the last month or so alone.
Apparently he's a decent DM with a history, and a lot of people play with him. I get the feeling he likely is a good guy and runs a good game, but currently he has had financial difficulties and figures that recruiting as many players as possible for games that don't exist pays his bills. Sorry, none of us signed up for a charitable donation here.
This is a terrible thing for online DnD, and gives legit honest paid DM's a bad rap. Has anyone had similar experiences with "Dicey" or with so-called paid DM's that disappeared with your money?
I'm going to suggest to you that you keep your story as a warning but change the name to a pseudonym. There could be legal ramifications of calling out someone's actual user name on a forum like this.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Thanks. Good suggestion. I revised it. Although, it seems he will be the one facing legal ramifications. I guess what would be useful to people here is that if you pay for a game, and you have made every opportunity to stay in contact with a DM who refuses to start or constantly pushes games (in this case, onto a 2nd month)... there are steps you can take to pursue the matter: your credit card company can do a chargeback on a disputed charge. If you know the person's locale, you can contact his/her local authorities cybercrimes division (this was easy to find). It may seem like $10 or $20 to you and why bother? But, chances are the person has done this to numerous other individuals. It's a cyber crime. Unless people stand up and hold those accountable, it will continue. Make sure you get screenshots of supporting evidence.
I wouldn't be worried about legal ramifications if you have proof and if the guy is struggling to refund $20 (doubt he has an attorney on retainer if he's that tight). From now on, only use friends and family for just that, friends and family. If someone has an issue with that then they are probably trying to scam ya. Not sure about forum rules on this kind of thing, but I would be more than thankful for scammers to be named so others can avoid that particular trap.
And people get upset when I tell the to not play in PAID games. Geez. People, there are plenty of us out there that want to do this hobby for fun and free. Ignore all those scammers.
I hear ya. I felt that a paid game would have a little more discipline as far as commitment sticking to a time and date. Didn't imagine for a second the DM would continue to recruit players for games that never start in order to pay his rent.
It's why you don't do paid D&D and its also a reason why the LFG forum should ban Paid DM'ing. There are other sites that offer paid D&D with payment tracking. Better yet, break out Lost MInes of Phandelver, get add a guy or two and start DM'ing a game. You'll be happier with the results.
There are definitely plenty of Pros/Cons for paid gaming. However, systems of accountability are absolutely an important part of any business. Don't discount professionals just because of a broken system. Established DMs will be able to earn your confidence with a proven track record, while those who aren't established shouldn't have any issue with sharing the burden.
Reserve a spot, but don't pay until after Session 0. DMs aren't, and shouldn't be, creating a custom world for you from scratch. The prep work is either done* by session 0, or they aren't actually doing it. Personalization happens between sessions.
I havent used paid DMs myself, but a lot of them offer a discounted or free first session. This is something I'd look for because even if they weren't a scam, they might run a game or have a group that just doesn't work for you..
Glad you found a group.
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All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
On top of what everyone else has said, never trust anyone who wants you to send money via the "Friends & Family" function of Paypal instead of the business side for any type of service. Any time someone asks you to do so it's a big red flag about the legitimacy of what they're offering.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
What absolutely floors me is I provided screenshots of conversations, including the one where he said "I need to keep adding players to my games because I'm in poverty... I have bills to pay". Roll20 Admins have yet to respond (4 days now), but they did flag my post and suspend me for 48hrs when I recounted what I had been through.
UPDATE: Situation is now being investigated by Roll20. Good news!
Roll20 Admins have yet to respond (4 days now), but they did flag my post and suspend me for 48hrs when I recounted what I had been through.
And this is why I said be careful about "naming names." You're more likely to get in trouble for reporting someone for a violation than the DM is for the violation. Lousy but fact of life.
I could easily see the mods here zapping your post or temp-banning you over it as well... which is again why I said to change the name.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
My thoughts are it is too expensive for you to go after him, and it is too expensive for him to go after you. You're just going to have to chalk this one up to experience. $27 is cheap for a life lesson. I've paid $1000 for one or two of mine. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Last we heard two months ago Roll20 was looking into it for the OP. OP hasn't really been a presence on the forums until this incident and posts on this issue is the bulk of their thread. Given all that, I don't know if we'll ever hear from the OP. Maybe if someone tries a direct message if the OP's settings are set up to draw their attention back this way.
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Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
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Unfortunately, this was my first introduction to online DnD. I met a guy on Roll20. He seemed nice enough and helpful, and he immediately had me on his Discord channel. Within minutes, he had three of us for a paid game that was advertised as starting that day, Nov 27th. He had us pay him $20GBP ($27 USD) on PayPal, but only if we paid him as 'Friends & Family' versus as a business or service. You see, PayPal has no consumer recourse if someone pays as 'Friends & Family'). All ready to play, he now indicates he needs time to prep, etc. The game is postponed to Dec 18th. What? Wish I would've known that before. Most of a week goes by and he won't engage us regarding characters or anything, and then he postpones the game to a third week and tells us to proceed and make characters for his game. Some of us took time off work for this game, and the apparent morning of, he delays another two weeks to January 1st. I was getting frustrated and asked him for a refund because I had so much free time off work in December, and now I've paid for something he never provided. He indicated he couldn't afford to pay me back and he needs to add more players so he can pay his bills. He states 'no refunds'. To me, 'no refunds' seems fine so long as the DM honors his end of the transaction - the game at the specified time and date. I can understand things come up, but we can see he's playing a couple of other games with people over these 6+ weeks now, and he continues to recruit people to games that aren't being played. Through the rest of November, December, and the beginning of January I see people being added, and kicked off his Discord when they complain about scheduled games that don't happen. Finally, last night Jan 8th I asked again for a refund... that his Nov 27th, changed to Dec 11th, changed to Dec 18th, changed to Jan 1st, changed to Jan 2nd, changed to Jan 15th, and now apparently 'early February' was totally unreasonable. He didn't reply, instead he kicked me off his Discord and blocked me on Roll20.
I contact PayPal with my screenshots of our conversation and they say while they can look into his business operations running under 'friends & family' and shut him down off PayPal, they can't refund money under Consumer Protection Act because I paid him as a friend (curious if this is part of his operation?). PayPal did encourage me to contact the cyber crimes unit, which I have done in the UK (his locale) and with the FBI (because PayPal is US jurisdiction). Seems excessive for a mere $20GBP, but seeing people booted off his Discord (and without refunds), I suspect he's done this to ten or more people in the last month or so alone.
Apparently he's a decent DM with a history, and a lot of people play with him. I get the feeling he likely is a good guy and runs a good game, but currently he has had financial difficulties and figures that recruiting as many players as possible for games that don't exist pays his bills. Sorry, none of us signed up for a charitable donation here.
This is a terrible thing for online DnD, and gives legit honest paid DM's a bad rap. Has anyone had similar experiences with "Dicey" or with so-called paid DM's that disappeared with your money?
I'm going to suggest to you that you keep your story as a warning but change the name to a pseudonym. There could be legal ramifications of calling out someone's actual user name on a forum like this.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Thanks. Good suggestion. I revised it. Although, it seems he will be the one facing legal ramifications. I guess what would be useful to people here is that if you pay for a game, and you have made every opportunity to stay in contact with a DM who refuses to start or constantly pushes games (in this case, onto a 2nd month)... there are steps you can take to pursue the matter: your credit card company can do a chargeback on a disputed charge. If you know the person's locale, you can contact his/her local authorities cybercrimes division (this was easy to find). It may seem like $10 or $20 to you and why bother? But, chances are the person has done this to numerous other individuals. It's a cyber crime. Unless people stand up and hold those accountable, it will continue. Make sure you get screenshots of supporting evidence.
I wouldn't be worried about legal ramifications if you have proof and if the guy is struggling to refund $20 (doubt he has an attorney on retainer if he's that tight). From now on, only use friends and family for just that, friends and family. If someone has an issue with that then they are probably trying to scam ya. Not sure about forum rules on this kind of thing, but I would be more than thankful for scammers to be named so others can avoid that particular trap.
"Good guys" don't scam.
And people get upset when I tell the to not play in PAID games. Geez. People, there are plenty of us out there that want to do this hobby for fun and free. Ignore all those scammers.
I hear ya. I felt that a paid game would have a little more discipline as far as commitment sticking to a time and date. Didn't imagine for a second the DM would continue to recruit players for games that never start in order to pay his rent.
It's why you don't do paid D&D and its also a reason why the LFG forum should ban Paid DM'ing. There are other sites that offer paid D&D with payment tracking. Better yet, break out Lost MInes of Phandelver, get add a guy or two and start DM'ing a game. You'll be happier with the results.
There are definitely plenty of Pros/Cons for paid gaming. However, systems of accountability are absolutely an important part of any business. Don't discount professionals just because of a broken system. Established DMs will be able to earn your confidence with a proven track record, while those who aren't established shouldn't have any issue with sharing the burden.
Reserve a spot, but don't pay until after Session 0. DMs aren't, and shouldn't be, creating a custom world for you from scratch. The prep work is either done* by session 0, or they aren't actually doing it. Personalization happens between sessions.
Agreed, and now know better. One of the other 'victims' of this DM hooked me up with another game. Excited to start.
I havent used paid DMs myself, but a lot of them offer a discounted or free first session. This is something I'd look for because even if they weren't a scam, they might run a game or have a group that just doesn't work for you..
Glad you found a group.
All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
On top of what everyone else has said, never trust anyone who wants you to send money via the "Friends & Family" function of Paypal instead of the business side for any type of service. Any time someone asks you to do so it's a big red flag about the legitimacy of what they're offering.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
What absolutely floors me is I provided screenshots of conversations, including the one where he said "I need to keep adding players to my games because I'm in poverty... I have bills to pay". Roll20 Admins have yet to respond (4 days now), but they did flag my post and suspend me for 48hrs when I recounted what I had been through.
UPDATE: Situation is now being investigated by Roll20. Good news!
And this is why I said be careful about "naming names." You're more likely to get in trouble for reporting someone for a violation than the DM is for the violation. Lousy but fact of life.
I could easily see the mods here zapping your post or temp-banning you over it as well... which is again why I said to change the name.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Have you heard anything more from roll20?
My thoughts are it is too expensive for you to go after him, and it is too expensive for him to go after you. You're just going to have to chalk this one up to experience. $27 is cheap for a life lesson. I've paid $1000 for one or two of mine. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us."
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt
Last we heard two months ago Roll20 was looking into it for the OP. OP hasn't really been a presence on the forums until this incident and posts on this issue is the bulk of their thread. Given all that, I don't know if we'll ever hear from the OP. Maybe if someone tries a direct message if the OP's settings are set up to draw their attention back this way.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.