So, there’s a lot of questions WOTC has been able to answer glibly about One D&D but not much has been said directly (if anything?) on how the Tools, Media, and Collection will look for us that choose not to immediately update, insofar as goes appearance and function on DDB. I think it’s a fair question that I would like an honest answer to, even if it comes down to, “Here’s our vision.” A lot of thoughts that have been suggested using the legacy tag have not made me personally happy with the way they’d appear. For myself, I feel an actual Toggle Should exist and a clear acknowledgement that for those of us that decline One D&D *is* a new edition, and one we are very very skeptical of.
Summary after the mini rant: What can we do to encourage WOTC to hold an interview with either a full community town hall OR people familiar with these concerns and complaints? I’d assume via Twitch but whatever.
I will say the same thing I said on your previous thread - Wizards is not going to say anything for the time being, and you can’t really do anything to force them to say anything. The waiting is frustrating, to be sure, but the simple reality is they probably do not even fully know themselves and, even if they did have an idea of what they wanted to do, saying something too early is bad PR. After all, it is silly to lock yourself into something you might decide to change later or might not be able to fully implement.
I’d like know these answers as well, but the question assumes that they know it themselves. I’d be willing to bet they are still analyzing the options and figuring out the best way to move forward. For that matter, I’d bet they’re still trying to define what “best” even looks like. And they still haven’t really pinned down how drastic the changes will be, which will have a major impact on what happened here. We’re looking at probably about a year before we see these books. Why commit to anything this point? They probably have some ideas, hopes and general directions, but once they start saying them in public, it gets really hard to change anything.
Summary after the mini rant: What can we do to encourage WOTC to hold an interview with either a full community town hall OR people familiar with these concerns and complaints? I’d assume via Twitch but whatever.
To be honest, not a lot. If we take their word at face value, they haven't even finished designing the game yet. They won't be ready to talk about the appearances of DDB for a long while after they have.
Honestly, I don't think this will go anywhere. WotC only seems to truly change course when social media flames up in their face...and while others have had similar concerns, this just isn't gaining traction. I don't think there will be such an interview. They'll make their decision (which will be partially informed by some of the views expressed here) and just make the decision - like they did with VGtM and MToF. I just don't see them doing a big hoo-ha with this kind of thing like they did with OGL - they didn't even do it with Spelljammer. This just doesn't rise to that level.
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If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think it's been proven that the DDB forums, largely because of their scale relative to the DDB and D&D communities, ain't the place organize or agitate or whatever the OP is trying to accomplish. Try the Discord, try larger social media communities on other platforms where staff and official announcements sometimes engage, etc. Best you can do here is put something in the feedback subforum, while it's mostly for the functionality of the actual DDB tools here, it's probably the only place known on the forum that word does actually get passed on up to WotC; but I can't think of the last time DDB or WotC staff showed up in this forum. Maybe comment on the articles written by staff when that's allowed. But trying to get an answer in the Gen Discussion section of DDB has only "worked" when there's already been official word put out on it elsewhere.
And to echo what's been said, inventing an account yesterday and multi threading the same issue isn't the way you build trust in a community if you're intention is to actually organize. If you looked around, the bulk of the people here are content with a wait and see approach.
A lot of people weren't happy with the "legacy" tag applied to other de-listed books, but that's what they did and it didn't seem to have much real impact on the site's operations. I don't know what sort of support you expect for a product line they'll preserve access to while focusing on selling the newer content.
Final thought, WOTC via DDB as you may know has been routinely surveying users on the One D&D playtest, there's space in there to voice your concerns about the future of DDB. If enough people put those concerns on the next survey in a few weeks, maybe they'll be a response.
I’d appreciate people not dismissing my comments or opinions based merely on what can be said to be a “dog with a bone” thinking. It’s an important thing to me and I’m approaching it from a number of different viewpoints and not just one. I’ve replied happily on other threads that don’t deal with this but currently don’t have anything that springs to mind that I wish to discuss for my own games.
I’d appreciate people not dismissing my comments or opinions based merely on what can be said to be a “dog with a bone” thinking. It’s an important thing to me and I’m approaching it from a number of different viewpoints and not just one.
It might be important to you, but unfortunately it's not important to WOTC and there's no leverage that you're going to be able to get change then company's mind. Unless you managed to organize some sort of mass boycott of WOTC products, and that's highly unlikely because it's not an issue that most WOTC customers care strongly about, either.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It doesn’t seem to be totally absent from people’s minds on the forums at all, and that’s from just a cursory reading. Absolutely agree that short of some kind of mass protest on Twitter WOTC is unlikely to listen, but since I have 0 respect for that app it’s not likely one I’d be able to join. Most of the comments here seemed more resigned (“guess I’ll have to spend time looking for a new game,”) but they were unhappy regardless, so I figured it couldn’t hurt to raise the idea of something proactive.
So, there’s a lot of questions WOTC has been able to answer glibly about One D&D but not much has been said directly (if anything?) on how the Tools, Media, and Collection will look for us that choose not to immediately update, insofar as goes appearance and function on DDB. I think it’s a fair question that I would like an honest answer to, even if it comes down to, “Here’s our vision.” A lot of thoughts that have been suggested using the legacy tag have not made me personally happy with the way they’d appear. For myself, I feel an actual Toggle Should exist and a clear acknowledgement that for those of us that decline One D&D *is* a new edition, and one we are very very skeptical of.
Summary after the mini rant: What can we do to encourage WOTC to hold an interview with either a full community town hall OR people familiar with these concerns and complaints? I’d assume via Twitch but whatever.
Seconded, it would be great to know further details on how much the new version may break our ability to use DDB if we want to stick with 5e to the specific exclusion of ALL new material. I wouldn't hold my breath on getting any answers in the short term though. My suggestion would be to prepare yourself to move to a new character management platform in due course. Essentially to hope for the best but plan for the worst, so to speak.
WoTC really has no obligation to explain any of this to us. Of course, we do not have any obligation to buy their products either. They have to be the ones who decide if it pays to be transparent, or if they prefer to be opaque. What can we do to encourage WoTC to do such interview? I would say nothing. It will be marketing department that will decide if said hypothetical interview is beneficial or not.
They're making a product with the intention of marketing it. They will roll it out in every channel they can think of, once they're ready. And I can assure you, people with knowledge of the concerns and complaints you mention are part of the process. There will be focus groups, and consultants, and community managers - but I can also assure you they'll all have had to sign watertight NDA's, because ... well, any information that's leaked is sure to be used by competitors.
What 'ready' means remains to be seen. They may offer some kind of early access, or they may have a big reveal and go directly to market. The thing to remember is, they're heavily invested into making this a success. Please keep that in mind. Everything they do, they do to make a product people will want to buy. Sure they're villains, but they're villains dedicated to making us pay for their product. Just because I hate business practices in general, doesn't mean I have to hate products =)
However, whatever they come up with will conform to certain prerequisites. Like access to a prestige class. They'll cater primarily to the widest possible audience, and they'll have a model for making money. This model will differ substantially from the one that's been shown repeatedly and consistently to not be scalable or particularly succesful.
Whether you, or I, or anyone is particularly represented by this 'widest possible audience' is anyone's guess.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
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So, there’s a lot of questions WOTC has been able to answer glibly about One D&D but not much has been said directly (if anything?) on how the Tools, Media, and Collection will look for us that choose not to immediately update, insofar as goes appearance and function on DDB. I think it’s a fair question that I would like an honest answer to, even if it comes down to, “Here’s our vision.” A lot of thoughts that have been suggested using the legacy tag have not made me personally happy with the way they’d appear. For myself, I feel an actual Toggle Should exist and a clear acknowledgement that for those of us that decline One D&D *is* a new edition, and one we are very very skeptical of.
Summary after the mini rant: What can we do to encourage WOTC to hold an interview with either a full community town hall OR people familiar with these concerns and complaints? I’d assume via Twitch but whatever.
[REDACTED]
I will say the same thing I said on your previous thread - Wizards is not going to say anything for the time being, and you can’t really do anything to force them to say anything. The waiting is frustrating, to be sure, but the simple reality is they probably do not even fully know themselves and, even if they did have an idea of what they wanted to do, saying something too early is bad PR. After all, it is silly to lock yourself into something you might decide to change later or might not be able to fully implement.
I’d like know these answers as well, but the question assumes that they know it themselves. I’d be willing to bet they are still analyzing the options and figuring out the best way to move forward. For that matter, I’d bet they’re still trying to define what “best” even looks like. And they still haven’t really pinned down how drastic the changes will be, which will have a major impact on what happened here. We’re looking at probably about a year before we see these books. Why commit to anything this point? They probably have some ideas, hopes and general directions, but once they start saying them in public, it gets really hard to change anything.
When WoTC is ready to tell more about their VT, tools, games etc.. they will gladly do so.
During rechearch and development stages, things change a lot and they may not be ready to tell too much about upcoming products.
To be honest, not a lot. If we take their word at face value, they haven't even finished designing the game yet. They won't be ready to talk about the appearances of DDB for a long while after they have.
Honestly, I don't think this will go anywhere. WotC only seems to truly change course when social media flames up in their face...and while others have had similar concerns, this just isn't gaining traction. I don't think there will be such an interview. They'll make their decision (which will be partially informed by some of the views expressed here) and just make the decision - like they did with VGtM and MToF. I just don't see them doing a big hoo-ha with this kind of thing like they did with OGL - they didn't even do it with Spelljammer. This just doesn't rise to that level.
If you're not willing or able to to discuss in good faith, then don't be surprised if I don't respond, there are better things in life for me to do than humour you. This signature is that response.
I think it's been proven that the DDB forums, largely because of their scale relative to the DDB and D&D communities, ain't the place organize or agitate or whatever the OP is trying to accomplish. Try the Discord, try larger social media communities on other platforms where staff and official announcements sometimes engage, etc. Best you can do here is put something in the feedback subforum, while it's mostly for the functionality of the actual DDB tools here, it's probably the only place known on the forum that word does actually get passed on up to WotC; but I can't think of the last time DDB or WotC staff showed up in this forum. Maybe comment on the articles written by staff when that's allowed. But trying to get an answer in the Gen Discussion section of DDB has only "worked" when there's already been official word put out on it elsewhere.
And to echo what's been said, inventing an account yesterday and multi threading the same issue isn't the way you build trust in a community if you're intention is to actually organize. If you looked around, the bulk of the people here are content with a wait and see approach.
A lot of people weren't happy with the "legacy" tag applied to other de-listed books, but that's what they did and it didn't seem to have much real impact on the site's operations. I don't know what sort of support you expect for a product line they'll preserve access to while focusing on selling the newer content.
Final thought, WOTC via DDB as you may know has been routinely surveying users on the One D&D playtest, there's space in there to voice your concerns about the future of DDB. If enough people put those concerns on the next survey in a few weeks, maybe they'll be a response.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I’d appreciate people not dismissing my comments or opinions based merely on what can be said to be a “dog with a bone” thinking. It’s an important thing to me and I’m approaching it from a number of different viewpoints and not just one. I’ve replied happily on other threads that don’t deal with this but currently don’t have anything that springs to mind that I wish to discuss for my own games.
It might be important to you, but unfortunately it's not important to WOTC and there's no leverage that you're going to be able to get change then company's mind. Unless you managed to organize some sort of mass boycott of WOTC products, and that's highly unlikely because it's not an issue that most WOTC customers care strongly about, either.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
It doesn’t seem to be totally absent from people’s minds on the forums at all, and that’s from just a cursory reading. Absolutely agree that short of some kind of mass protest on Twitter WOTC is unlikely to listen, but since I have 0 respect for that app it’s not likely one I’d be able to join. Most of the comments here seemed more resigned (“guess I’ll have to spend time looking for a new game,”) but they were unhappy regardless, so I figured it couldn’t hurt to raise the idea of something proactive.
Seconded, it would be great to know further details on how much the new version may break our ability to use DDB if we want to stick with 5e to the specific exclusion of ALL new material. I wouldn't hold my breath on getting any answers in the short term though. My suggestion would be to prepare yourself to move to a new character management platform in due course. Essentially to hope for the best but plan for the worst, so to speak.
WoTC really has no obligation to explain any of this to us.
Of course, we do not have any obligation to buy their products either.
They have to be the ones who decide if it pays to be transparent, or if they prefer to be opaque.
What can we do to encourage WoTC to do such interview? I would say nothing. It will be marketing department that will decide if said hypothetical interview is beneficial or not.
They're making a product with the intention of marketing it. They will roll it out in every channel they can think of, once they're ready. And I can assure you, people with knowledge of the concerns and complaints you mention are part of the process. There will be focus groups, and consultants, and community managers - but I can also assure you they'll all have had to sign watertight NDA's, because ... well, any information that's leaked is sure to be used by competitors.
What 'ready' means remains to be seen. They may offer some kind of early access, or they may have a big reveal and go directly to market. The thing to remember is, they're heavily invested into making this a success. Please keep that in mind. Everything they do, they do to make a product people will want to buy. Sure they're villains, but they're villains dedicated to making us pay for their product. Just because I hate business practices in general, doesn't mean I have to hate products =)
However, whatever they come up with will conform to certain prerequisites. Like access to a prestige class. They'll cater primarily to the widest possible audience, and they'll have a model for making money. This model will differ substantially from the one that's been shown repeatedly and consistently to not be scalable or particularly succesful.
Whether you, or I, or anyone is particularly represented by this 'widest possible audience' is anyone's guess.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.