I would like some feedback in order to make this subclass feasible for an upcoming game I intend to play. What do you guys think?
Hidden away in high mountains, warrior monks train in hand to hand combat, throwing one another to the ground. Deep in a dark forest, a solitary monk sits beneath a waterfall, holding a serene pose as the water breaks against their body. In a desert oasis, groups of young warriors force their hands through bowls of hot sand. No matter where they may be from, the secretive sect of monks known only as the Sura, live their lives.
Normally trained from a young age, the Sura are fighters before scholars. They focus on training their bodies to be deadly weapons in the same way other monks do but carry a distinct fighting style that highlights their form. Where one monk might strike a foe multiple times and then slip away to challenge another or escape their counterattack, the Sura focus on restraining one opponent at a time with precise joint locks and forceful throws. Using techniques handed down from master to apprentice, the Sura learn to use their opponent's bodies against them, all while maintaining their own presence on the battlefield.
As they grow stronger, the Sura gain access to new techniques, handed down to them when they are ready. Their mastery dictates when they will be taught their next lesson, as it is written in the code all Sura follow. Each technique furthers their abilities and widens the niche of combat they excel in.
Most Sura do not climb to the ranks necessary to learn the most storied techniques of their style; the Ki Ghost Technique and the legendary Godfist Technique. The story goes that the first Sura, a monk named Arashi, fought an ancient green dragon that was terrorizing the people of his homeland. When he caught hold of the monster's claw, it fell to the ground in agony and could not release itself from the monk's grasp. In a plea for mercy, the dragon swore to flee the monk's homeland and never return. When the monk accepted, the dragon fled across the horizon, true to its word and fearful of the monk's wrath.
Today, the Sura are secretive and do not accept those that invite themselves to join their ranks. Each monk who walks the Way of the Sura is chosen to do so, not by their teachers, but by destiny.
Sura Fighting Style
Starting at 3rd level, your mastery of the Sura fighting style grants you several advantages. You can use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength Checks and Strength Saving throws. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target of your attack. When you successfully start a grapple, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
You knock the target Prone. A prone target has disadvantage on checks to escape your grapple.
You deal damage to the target equal to an unarmed attack.
You disarm the target, forcing it to drop one item of your choice that it’s holding.
Dancing Shield Technique
Starting at 6th level, you learn how to shield yourself from attacks while maintaining a grapple. While you are grappling a creature, melee attacks have disadvantage against you. Whenever you would be hit by an attack, you can use your reaction to maneuver the creature you are grappling into the path of the attack, granting you a bonus to AC against the triggering attack equal to your Wisdom modifier. If the attack then misses, the grappled creature takes damage instead of you.
Ki Ghost Technique
Starting at 11th level, you learn to channel your Ki directly into your opponent, giving you some measure of control over them. Whenever you successfully grapple an opponent, you can spend a Ki point to impose one of the following effects on the target:
It must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or suffer the effects of the Dominate Person Spell.
It must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be Paralyzed.
It suffers 5d10 Necrotic Damage.
Whenever a creature subject to one of these effects dies, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier + Monk level, as well as regain 1 Ki point.
Godfist Technique
Starting at 17th level, your mastery of the Way of the Sura is beyond compare. Whenever a creature within 5ft of you casts a spell or makes an attack, you can use your reaction to attempt to grapple that creature. The grapple and any effects you impose on that creature occur before the triggering action. Size difference also no longer hinders your ability to maintain a grapple on a creature and while you have a creature grappled, it cannot take reactions or use its action to make an attack that doesn't include you.
Just from a pure balancing standpoint, it is out of proportions to the standard Monk sub classes, not lookig at Astral Self or Way of the Mercy.
The mere fact to use Dex for any Strength check and saving throw itself is already strong , adding the option to make this a damaging attack,having an improved open hand prone or an improved fighter manouver is very strong.
The level 6 feature giving others disadvantage to melee attacks would be to good like that and not very reasonable. Changing it to ranged attack would make it much more in line. The bonus to AC is a nice touch for the reaction and it makes sense thematically and logic wise although a full wisdom bonus is a bit much no? But having the grappled target take the full damage without considering it's AC is not very reasonable.
The level 11 feature is just out of whack strait up. 1 Ki for Dominate monster? or 5d10 necrotic? Just look at the standard Monk level 11 features they are not very strong, just in the right situation usefull.
The level 17 feature i don't know. It is just so much and basically makes you with everything else in singel/controlled combat a god. No rly
As all the monk is trying to do is become a grappler, lets adjust the features like this;
Lvl 3: Dex instead of strength for Athletics checks only. No saves, no anything else. In trying to make the monk a single target tank/controller, I wanted to give it a way to hold a target in place, so maybe change it to spend a Ki point to afford it the other effects, instead of having them happen automatically? Take away disadvantage to escape the grapple on a prone target, reduce the damage to martial arts + dex mod (or just martial arts if that's still too strong?)
Lvl 6: Ranged attacks giving disadvantage sounds reasonable. Was originally going to give a flat +2 to ac vs the attack, but that scales poorly so I went with wisdom. If +2 sounds more reasonable I can switch it to that. Then the reaction could just switch targets, so if the attack would then miss, it would -target- the grappled creature instead of just hitting them.
Lvl 11: Here's where I have little experience in play with 5th edition, especially with monks. It's also where I hear monks start to become lackluster compared to other melee classes, specifically fighters and Paladins. How about changing the cost to 2 Ki for paralyzed, 3 for Dominate Person, and change the damage to something like "For each Ki point spent, deal that many die of damage based on your Martial Arts die". or something worded much better than that.
Lvl 16: Is the reaction what's too strong? Or the ability to grapple any size creature? or the "They have to include you in their attacks"?
I like it, as others have said it's a little over tuned in general and the level 11 ability is out and out too much. The level 3 ability is nice and I don't think using dex for strength saves as well as checks is too much, but the auto disarm and prone options for a grapple are maybe too much. Perhaps make them a level 11 ability with a couple of other options and instead just allow your bonus action grapple to do damage?
The level 6 ability is powerful and flavourful, I think attacks coming at you having disadvantage is about right, as other have said having deflected attacks rolling against the grappled foes Ac seems a good compromise.
I'll reply to this as best as I can, but first, let me say thank you for the feedback. This is what I currently have.
Sura Fighting Style
Starting at 3rd level, your mastery of the Sura fighting style grants you several advantages. You can use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Athletics Checks. When you successfully start a grapple, you can use a bonus action to spend a Ki point to impose one of the following effects on that target:
You knock the target Prone.
You make an unarmed attack against the target.
You disarm the target, forcing it to drop one item of your choice that it’s holding.
Dancing Shield Technique
Starting at 6th level, you learn how to shield yourself from attacks while maintaining a grapple. While you are grappling a creature, you gain the benefits of Half Cover against ranged attacks. Whenever you would be hit by an attack, you can spend a Ki point as a reaction to maneuver the creature you are grappling into the path of the attack, granting you a +2 bonus to AC against the triggering attack. If the attack then misses, the grappled creature becomes the target of the attack instead.
Ki Leech Technique
Starting at 11th level, you learn to leech Ki directly from an opponent, revitalizing yourself while draining them. While you have a creature grappled, you can use your action to drain a number of Ki points it up to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1). When you do, the target takes 1d10 necrotic damage for each Ki point drained, and you gain temporary hit points equal to your Monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Whenever you use this feature, you must complete a short or long rest to be able to use it again.
Godfist Technique
Starting at 17th level, your mastery of the Way of the Sura is beyond compare. Whenever a creature within 5ft of you casts a spell or makes an attack, you can use your reaction to attempt to grapple that creature. The grapple and any effects you impose on that creature occur before the triggering action. Size difference also no longer hinders your ability to maintain a grapple on a creature and while you have a creature grappled, it cannot take reactions or use its action to make an attack that doesn't include you.
I'm a little unsure of what to do with Godfist Technique. After looking it up, I understand I wouldn't be able to move a creature I couldn't drag around, but I could still inhibit its own movement, which is the goal. Even if I took that out (which really is just a way to include gargantuan monsters into what I can target with the rest of the subclass), would it still be too strong?
Thank you for replying, I appreciate the feedback, hopefully I can work this into a reality.
Doing a test battle, noticed that the half cover bonus to having a creature grappled should already sort of be a thing? Depends on the grapple I assume. Think it should change to disadvantage or is that too strong overall?
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I would like some feedback in order to make this subclass feasible for an upcoming game I intend to play. What do you guys think?
Hidden away in high mountains, warrior monks train in hand to hand combat, throwing one another to the ground. Deep in a dark forest, a solitary monk sits beneath a waterfall, holding a serene pose as the water breaks against their body. In a desert oasis, groups of young warriors force their hands through bowls of hot sand. No matter where they may be from, the secretive sect of monks known only as the Sura, live their lives.
Normally trained from a young age, the Sura are fighters before scholars. They focus on training their bodies to be deadly weapons in the same way other monks do but carry a distinct fighting style that highlights their form. Where one monk might strike a foe multiple times and then slip away to challenge another or escape their counterattack, the Sura focus on restraining one opponent at a time with precise joint locks and forceful throws. Using techniques handed down from master to apprentice, the Sura learn to use their opponent's bodies against them, all while maintaining their own presence on the battlefield.
As they grow stronger, the Sura gain access to new techniques, handed down to them when they are ready. Their mastery dictates when they will be taught their next lesson, as it is written in the code all Sura follow. Each technique furthers their abilities and widens the niche of combat they excel in.
Most Sura do not climb to the ranks necessary to learn the most storied techniques of their style; the Ki Ghost Technique and the legendary Godfist Technique. The story goes that the first Sura, a monk named Arashi, fought an ancient green dragon that was terrorizing the people of his homeland. When he caught hold of the monster's claw, it fell to the ground in agony and could not release itself from the monk's grasp. In a plea for mercy, the dragon swore to flee the monk's homeland and never return. When the monk accepted, the dragon fled across the horizon, true to its word and fearful of the monk's wrath.
Today, the Sura are secretive and do not accept those that invite themselves to join their ranks. Each monk who walks the Way of the Sura is chosen to do so, not by their teachers, but by destiny.
Sura Fighting Style
Starting at 3rd level, your mastery of the Sura fighting style grants you several advantages. You can use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Strength Checks and Strength Saving throws. Whenever you take the Attack action, you can use a bonus action to attempt to grapple the target of your attack. When you successfully start a grapple, you can impose one of the following effects on that target:
Dancing Shield Technique
Starting at 6th level, you learn how to shield yourself from attacks while maintaining a grapple. While you are grappling a creature, melee attacks have disadvantage against you. Whenever you would be hit by an attack, you can use your reaction to maneuver the creature you are grappling into the path of the attack, granting you a bonus to AC against the triggering attack equal to your Wisdom modifier. If the attack then misses, the grappled creature takes damage instead of you.
Ki Ghost Technique
Starting at 11th level, you learn to channel your Ki directly into your opponent, giving you some measure of control over them. Whenever you successfully grapple an opponent, you can spend a Ki point to impose one of the following effects on the target:
Whenever a creature subject to one of these effects dies, you gain temporary hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier + Monk level, as well as regain 1 Ki point.
Godfist Technique
Starting at 17th level, your mastery of the Way of the Sura is beyond compare. Whenever a creature within 5ft of you casts a spell or makes an attack, you can use your reaction to attempt to grapple that creature. The grapple and any effects you impose on that creature occur before the triggering action. Size difference also no longer hinders your ability to maintain a grapple on a creature and while you have a creature grappled, it cannot take reactions or use its action to make an attack that doesn't include you.
Just from a pure balancing standpoint, it is out of proportions to the standard Monk sub classes, not lookig at Astral Self or Way of the Mercy.
The mere fact to use Dex for any Strength check and saving throw itself is already strong , adding the option to make this a damaging attack,having an improved open hand prone or an improved fighter manouver is very strong.
The level 6 feature giving others disadvantage to melee attacks would be to good like that and not very reasonable. Changing it to ranged attack would make it much more in line. The bonus to AC is a nice touch for the reaction and it makes sense thematically and logic wise although a full wisdom bonus is a bit much no? But having the grappled target take the full damage without considering it's AC is not very reasonable.
The level 11 feature is just out of whack strait up.
1 Ki for Dominate monster? or 5d10 necrotic?
Just look at the standard Monk level 11 features they are not very strong, just in the right situation usefull.
The level 17 feature i don't know. It is just so much and basically makes you with everything else in singel/controlled combat a god. No rly
Feedback, awesome.
As all the monk is trying to do is become a grappler, lets adjust the features like this;
Lvl 3: Dex instead of strength for Athletics checks only. No saves, no anything else. In trying to make the monk a single target tank/controller, I wanted to give it a way to hold a target in place, so maybe change it to spend a Ki point to afford it the other effects, instead of having them happen automatically? Take away disadvantage to escape the grapple on a prone target, reduce the damage to martial arts + dex mod (or just martial arts if that's still too strong?)
Lvl 6: Ranged attacks giving disadvantage sounds reasonable. Was originally going to give a flat +2 to ac vs the attack, but that scales poorly so I went with wisdom. If +2 sounds more reasonable I can switch it to that. Then the reaction could just switch targets, so if the attack would then miss, it would -target- the grappled creature instead of just hitting them.
Lvl 11: Here's where I have little experience in play with 5th edition, especially with monks. It's also where I hear monks start to become lackluster compared to other melee classes, specifically fighters and Paladins. How about changing the cost to 2 Ki for paralyzed, 3 for Dominate Person, and change the damage to something like "For each Ki point spent, deal that many die of damage based on your Martial Arts die". or something worded much better than that.
Lvl 16: Is the reaction what's too strong? Or the ability to grapple any size creature? or the "They have to include you in their attacks"?
I like it, as others have said it's a little over tuned in general and the level 11 ability is out and out too much. The level 3 ability is nice and I don't think using dex for strength saves as well as checks is too much, but the auto disarm and prone options for a grapple are maybe too much. Perhaps make them a level 11 ability with a couple of other options and instead just allow your bonus action grapple to do damage?
The level 6 ability is powerful and flavourful, I think attacks coming at you having disadvantage is about right, as other have said having deflected attacks rolling against the grappled foes Ac seems a good compromise.
I'll reply to this as best as I can, but first, let me say thank you for the feedback. This is what I currently have.
Sura Fighting Style
Starting at 3rd level, your mastery of the Sura fighting style grants you several advantages. You can use your Dexterity modifier in place of your Strength modifier when making Athletics Checks. When you successfully start a grapple, you can use a bonus action to spend a Ki point to impose one of the following effects on that target:
Dancing Shield Technique
Starting at 6th level, you learn how to shield yourself from attacks while maintaining a grapple. While you are grappling a creature, you gain the benefits of Half Cover against ranged attacks. Whenever you would be hit by an attack, you can spend a Ki point as a reaction to maneuver the creature you are grappling into the path of the attack, granting you a +2 bonus to AC against the triggering attack. If the attack then misses, the grappled creature becomes the target of the attack instead.
Ki Leech Technique
Starting at 11th level, you learn to leech Ki directly from an opponent, revitalizing yourself while draining them. While you have a creature grappled, you can use your action to drain a number of Ki points it up to your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 1). When you do, the target takes 1d10 necrotic damage for each Ki point drained, and you gain temporary hit points equal to your Monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Whenever you use this feature, you must complete a short or long rest to be able to use it again.
Godfist Technique
Starting at 17th level, your mastery of the Way of the Sura is beyond compare. Whenever a creature within 5ft of you casts a spell or makes an attack, you can use your reaction to attempt to grapple that creature. The grapple and any effects you impose on that creature occur before the triggering action. Size difference also no longer hinders your ability to maintain a grapple on a creature and while you have a creature grappled, it cannot take reactions or use its action to make an attack that doesn't include you.
I'm a little unsure of what to do with Godfist Technique. After looking it up, I understand I wouldn't be able to move a creature I couldn't drag around, but I could still inhibit its own movement, which is the goal. Even if I took that out (which really is just a way to include gargantuan monsters into what I can target with the rest of the subclass), would it still be too strong?
Thank you for replying, I appreciate the feedback, hopefully I can work this into a reality.
Doing a test battle, noticed that the half cover bonus to having a creature grappled should already sort of be a thing? Depends on the grapple I assume. Think it should change to disadvantage or is that too strong overall?