In short... Don't. I know potent cantrip is also really strong (and also busted if you ask me) but with this change you're giving attack roll cantrips an increased not to just hit but to also crit.
Im trying to find way to make potent cantrip more useful for the majority of evocation cantrips, which are attack based. I hate that the only decent spell that works for potent cantrip is a necro spell. I don't want to create a bunch of new spells, that process I feel would be more tedious. Has anyone found a good change for this ability that would better fit? Or am I stuck with making new spells?
I both play and DM with the same group of people so alot of things I build for them to use I get to use in the games when I play.
Understandable and I feel the same way about it. Though I did decide to make homebrew cantrips at the same potency but I understand if that's not what you want to do. One alternative I've seen people suggest is to do another Int bonus to cantrip damage, but I personally don't like using a second bonus that's the same as the level 10.
Yeah I thought of that and as much as it sounds interesting but I agree, doubling down on damage when hitting level 10 would be WAY too much and make cantrips above and beyond what they should be. I thought by adding advantage to the attack roles would be good, basically making hitting more likely and making attack cantrips more viable if in melee. What about adding the INT bonus, or maybe half if the full bonus would be too much, to attack cantrip attack roles?
If you plan to do the attack roll route, I'd suggest doing a fixed amount. Something like "you gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls with [evocation*] cantrips," which would make it a feature basically the archery fighting style of cantrips, and I don't see an issue in doing that. Though if you find it underwhelming, maybe adding a scaling part the amount, but only to +3 if you do.
*Not sure if the restriction for evocation spells only would be needed, but also keep that in mind.
Do you know any ways to limit the bonus to just cantrips in the dndbeyond home-brew generator? So far I can only find a way to make it for ALL spell attack rolls
Not of what I am currently aware of. It might just need to be a feature where the player has to manually apply the bonus via "customize" on their character sheet.
As with others I'd be wary about doing this; with a good spellcasting modifier you should already have a good chance of hitting normally. The reason that it makes sense on save-based cantrips is that it stops them from being all-or-nothing as well, but it's arguably very strong already as this means guaranteed damage at zero cost (except an action).
Regarding cantrips it works with, there are several; it applies to all cantrips you know, not just evocation cantrips. Unless I've messed up the search there are eight that benefit, and all are useful and thematic. You can see them in this search, I've included all sources for completeness so there's an additional UA in there, there's also Gust and Light which I couldn't figure out how to exclude (as they require a save but don't deal damage). Lightning Lure only somewhat applies since it only does damage if the enemy is within five feet of you (which they may not be if they save, though technically the cantrip itself doesn't have to be the reason they're within five feet of you, you could use it point blank).
Toll the Dead is the one the power gamers will all go for, but all of the cantrips are useful, and you should pick what fits your theme best. Personally I'm a big fan of Create Bonfire; it's not the most damaging, and fire is somewhat common as a resistance/immunity, but if you can funnel mobs through it by putting it in a doorway or such then it's excellent value for a cantrip, and if they won't go through it then it lets you split groups and deal with immediate threats first. Frostbite is also good for interfering with an enemy's attacks; obviously in the context of Potent Cantrip you won't get that benefit if the target passes the save, but still doing half damage is a good consolation to that.
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Potent Cantrip is fine as it is. Level 6 ability of any Wizard school is usually situational, level 2 and 10 abilities are the game-changers.
I understood your frustration and recommend get cantrips like Create Bonfire, Frostbite and the best one ever Toll the Dead, using these you can leverage Potent Cantrip better. And personally speaking I found them better than Firebolt, for instance.
Create bonfire would be excellent if it weren't for it being conjuration, concentration and it has to be cast on the ground. Too many enemies fly, it messes with concentration on other spells and nerfs them and its conjuration so it can't stack with empowered evocation later.
I also think giving free advantage is too much, however, I do understand the frustration with this ability.
Maybe just extend the base effect to attack roll cantrips. So they'd deal half damage on a miss as well.
Thats actually how the evoker was in the original dnd next iterations. it wasn't until they sent everything to "print" that they made it just save cantrips.
It gave that specific subclass much more power than the others, so yes, OP. How else would you qualify a feature that basically pumps up your damage by 50% (very rough estimate based on the fact that you hit half the time) with the one type of spell that you are going to use very often in your games ? Compare it to saying that now, basic attacks of martial classes will do 50% on miss. Do you find that normal ?
Well it is designed to be the blaster subclass for wizards after all. So it should be better at doing damage than other subclasses. This is like saying you give the Abjurer much better defense than other subclasses and that's OP.
This may be different for everyone but in my experience cantrips aren't even used that often, especially as you get to higher levels. It's usually the weakest thing you can do as a spellcaster. This ability makes it a little bit better and with the change would Evokers actually allow to use more evocation cantrips than frostbite to benefit from this subclass feature. I would agree if we were talking about warlocks and eldritch blast but wizard cantrips aren't the big DPR ability either way.
Comparing cantrips to basic attacks just doesn't hold up in my opinion unless for warlock.
I also don't really understand why it should be more "OP" that the current version with on save cantrips already doing that and not being OP?
Evokers can be a bit better at doing damage than other subclasses, but +50% to damage is huge. And I would guarantee that you would be using cantrips much more if that was the case. And the reason for allowing it on save cantrips is because they are very limited anyway.
The change would only affect cantrips and they aren't a high damage source. Even with this buff I don't think the feature is great to be honest. Would it be such a bad thing if they were used more often? Most wizards will probably only rely on cantrips when they are out of spell slots and in that case I think it would be cool if the evokers have an edge (they already do).
There are good on save cantrips for wizards as well: e.g. toll the dead.
Even at high level the evoker firebolt dpr (with a high 50% miss chance for simplicity) would cap out at ~21 instead of 13.5. It is a significant difference but hardly game breaking because it's basically what they can do now already. Compared with the RAW situation of the potent cantrip, extending the features effect to on hit cantrips would increase the evokers cantrip dpr from 19.5 (toll the dead) to roughly 21 (firebolt with +INT mod from evoker lvl 10). So all it would do is to allow the evoker to choose which cantrip he wants to use without being forced towards either side.
Instead of cantrips doing half damage on a save how balanced would it be to give advantage to all cantrip spell attack roles?
In short... Don't. I know potent cantrip is also really strong (and also busted if you ask me) but with this change you're giving attack roll cantrips an increased not to just hit but to also crit.
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Im trying to find way to make potent cantrip more useful for the majority of evocation cantrips, which are attack based. I hate that the only decent spell that works for potent cantrip is a necro spell. I don't want to create a bunch of new spells, that process I feel would be more tedious. Has anyone found a good change for this ability that would better fit? Or am I stuck with making new spells?
I both play and DM with the same group of people so alot of things I build for them to use I get to use in the games when I play.
Understandable and I feel the same way about it. Though I did decide to make homebrew cantrips at the same potency but I understand if that's not what you want to do. One alternative I've seen people suggest is to do another Int bonus to cantrip damage, but I personally don't like using a second bonus that's the same as the level 10.
My Homebrew | Background | Feats | Magic Items | Races | Spells | Subclass | Homebrewery
To see my more recent homebrew creations, please check out my content on Hombrewery.
Yeah I thought of that and as much as it sounds interesting but I agree, doubling down on damage when hitting level 10 would be WAY too much and make cantrips above and beyond what they should be. I thought by adding advantage to the attack roles would be good, basically making hitting more likely and making attack cantrips more viable if in melee. What about adding the INT bonus, or maybe half if the full bonus would be too much, to attack cantrip attack roles?
If you plan to do the attack roll route, I'd suggest doing a fixed amount. Something like "you gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls with [evocation*] cantrips," which would make it a feature basically the archery fighting style of cantrips, and I don't see an issue in doing that. Though if you find it underwhelming, maybe adding a scaling part the amount, but only to +3 if you do.
*Not sure if the restriction for evocation spells only would be needed, but also keep that in mind.
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To see my more recent homebrew creations, please check out my content on Hombrewery.
Do you know any ways to limit the bonus to just cantrips in the dndbeyond home-brew generator? So far I can only find a way to make it for ALL spell attack rolls
Not of what I am currently aware of. It might just need to be a feature where the player has to manually apply the bonus via "customize" on their character sheet.
My Homebrew | Background | Feats | Magic Items | Races | Spells | Subclass | Homebrewery
To see my more recent homebrew creations, please check out my content on Hombrewery.
As with others I'd be wary about doing this; with a good spellcasting modifier you should already have a good chance of hitting normally. The reason that it makes sense on save-based cantrips is that it stops them from being all-or-nothing as well, but it's arguably very strong already as this means guaranteed damage at zero cost (except an action).
Regarding cantrips it works with, there are several; it applies to all cantrips you know, not just evocation cantrips. Unless I've messed up the search there are eight that benefit, and all are useful and thematic. You can see them in this search, I've included all sources for completeness so there's an additional UA in there, there's also Gust and Light which I couldn't figure out how to exclude (as they require a save but don't deal damage). Lightning Lure only somewhat applies since it only does damage if the enemy is within five feet of you (which they may not be if they save, though technically the cantrip itself doesn't have to be the reason they're within five feet of you, you could use it point blank).
Toll the Dead is the one the power gamers will all go for, but all of the cantrips are useful, and you should pick what fits your theme best. Personally I'm a big fan of Create Bonfire; it's not the most damaging, and fire is somewhat common as a resistance/immunity, but if you can funnel mobs through it by putting it in a doorway or such then it's excellent value for a cantrip, and if they won't go through it then it lets you split groups and deal with immediate threats first. Frostbite is also good for interfering with an enemy's attacks; obviously in the context of Potent Cantrip you won't get that benefit if the target passes the save, but still doing half damage is a good consolation to that.
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Massively OP. I do not recommend doing that.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
Potent Cantrip is fine as it is. Level 6 ability of any Wizard school is usually situational, level 2 and 10 abilities are the game-changers.
I understood your frustration and recommend get cantrips like Create Bonfire, Frostbite and the best one ever Toll the Dead, using these you can leverage Potent Cantrip better. And personally speaking I found them better than Firebolt, for instance.
Create bonfire would be excellent if it weren't for it being conjuration, concentration and it has to be cast on the ground. Too many enemies fly, it messes with concentration on other spells and nerfs them and its conjuration so it can't stack with empowered evocation later.
It's hard to imagine a bonfire in the air.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
ever hear of airbursting munitions? lol I get your point.
How good or bad would it be then to make an evoker who's only damage cantrips, 2 or 3, are save cantrips instead of taking any attack cantrips?
you could make it so that if it does give advantage, it can't crit. Making it more accurate, but less powerful overall.
that way they could chose between power and consistency, like with Great Weapon Master
I also think giving free advantage is too much, however, I do understand the frustration with this ability.
Maybe just extend the base effect to attack roll cantrips. So they'd deal half damage on a miss as well.
Thats actually how the evoker was in the original dnd next iterations. it wasn't until they sent everything to "print" that they made it just save cantrips.
OP for doing half damage on miss with cantrips?
That sounds very exaggerated to me.
Well it is designed to be the blaster subclass for wizards after all. So it should be better at doing damage than other subclasses. This is like saying you give the Abjurer much better defense than other subclasses and that's OP.
This may be different for everyone but in my experience cantrips aren't even used that often, especially as you get to higher levels. It's usually the weakest thing you can do as a spellcaster. This ability makes it a little bit better and with the change would Evokers actually allow to use more evocation cantrips than frostbite to benefit from this subclass feature. I would agree if we were talking about warlocks and eldritch blast but wizard cantrips aren't the big DPR ability either way.
Comparing cantrips to basic attacks just doesn't hold up in my opinion unless for warlock.
I also don't really understand why it should be more "OP" that the current version with on save cantrips already doing that and not being OP?
The change would only affect cantrips and they aren't a high damage source. Even with this buff I don't think the feature is great to be honest.
Would it be such a bad thing if they were used more often? Most wizards will probably only rely on cantrips when they are out of spell slots and in that case I think it would be cool if the evokers have an edge (they already do).
There are good on save cantrips for wizards as well: e.g. toll the dead.
Even at high level the evoker firebolt dpr (with a high 50% miss chance for simplicity) would cap out at ~21 instead of 13.5. It is a significant difference but hardly game breaking because it's basically what they can do now already. Compared with the RAW situation of the potent cantrip, extending the features effect to on hit cantrips would increase the evokers cantrip dpr from 19.5 (toll the dead) to roughly 21 (firebolt with +INT mod from evoker lvl 10). So all it would do is to allow the evoker to choose which cantrip he wants to use without being forced towards either side.