Hi everyone, me and my party are about to close a 2 years and an half campaing soon. We started some PvP action so problems started.
My Paladin just got level 20 and he just unlocked the final feat of his Oath of Vengeance. It states:
At 20th level, you can assume the form of an angelic avenger. Using your action, you undergo a transformation. For 1 hour, you gain the following benefits:
Wings sprout from your back and grant you a flying speed of 60 feet.
You emanate an aura of menace in a 30-foot radius. The first time any enemy creature enters the aura or starts its turn there during a battle, the creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened of you for 1 minute or until it takes any damage. Attack rolls against the frightened creature have advantage.
Once you use this feature, you can't use it again until you finish a long rest.
I am unsure whether the "first time" clause is only for the first part of the compound sentence, or whether it distributes to both parts
That is, am I supposed to parse this as:
The first time any enemy creature enters the aura, as well as the first time any enemy creature starts its turn in the aura during a battle, the creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw...
such that any given creature could be made to save at most two times
or as:
The first time any enemy creature enters the aura, or whenever any enemy creature starts its turn in the aura during a battle, the creature must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw...
such that there is no limit to the number of times a creature can be made to save so long as the battle continues?
I'd say it's first time for both, considering what seems to be the ending of the "first time" statement is after the "or".
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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1) Only the first time an enemy enters the aura and when it starts the turn there 2) The first time it enters the aura and whenever it starts its turn there.
It's pretty clear that he makes one saving throw the first time it enters, i'm just confused on the second part.
If enemies had to be immune to it when the saving throw is passed it would be stated like the Ancient Red Dragon's Frightful Presence :
Each creature of the dragon’s choice that is within 120 feet of the dragon and aware of it must succeed on a DC 21 Wisdom saving throw or become frightened for 1 minute. A creature can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. If a creature’s saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the creature is immune to the dragon’s Frightful Presence for the next 24 hours.
This is not our case, there is also Moonbeam that has a similar description, I think it should be like this even for the Paladin aura, that states:
A silvery beam of pale light shines down in a 5-foot-radius, 40-foot-high cylinder centered on a point within range. Until the spell ends, dim light fills the cylinder.When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there, it is engulfed in ghostly flames that cause searing pain, and it must make a Constitution saving throw. It takes 2d10 radiant damage on a failed save, or half as much damage on a successful one.A shapechanger makes its saving throw with disadvantage. If it fails, it also instantly reverts to its original form and can’t assume a different form until it leaves the spell’s light.On each of your turns after you cast this spell, you can use an action to move the beam 60 feet in any direction.At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d10 for each slot level above 2nd.
The only difference with Moonbeam is that it uses "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time " instead of only "The first time", makes sense to me because Moonbeam is an AoE spell fixed in an area of effect that can be moved with an action and not an aura that follows the character and I think enemies inside the Avenging Angel's aura should make the saving throw every turn they start in it but if they leave it for some reason and get back inside after the first time they do it they should not repeat the saving throw for entering it.
In short words, you have to avoid to start the turn inside the paladin aura after the first time you went in it or you have to roll the saving throw.
The first time (any enemy creature (enters the aura) or (starts its turn there)) during a battle...
I think that's reinforced by the fact that "during a battle" is at the end. It wouldn't make any sense to just leave "the first time" without any clarification, so it's pretty clear that "during a battle" is meant to conclude "the first time". Since "the first time" is at the start and "during a battle" is at the end, it would only make sense that they both apply to everything in-between them.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I get that, but if I start the turn inside that aura it means I've already did the saving throw beacuse i ended up inside.
The first tme you enter it -> roll to save or starts its turn there during a battle -> roll to save
Also it says that if the paladin damages who is frightened the creature loses the condition. So with an example witn Paladin Vs Bob:
I'll highlitght red when the statement is falseand green when it is true.
Paladin has already activated the Avenging Angel transformation and has the aura activated
Paladin's Turn 1 Paladin moves to Bob Bob makes the saving throw as soon as he enters the aura for the first time and fails, he's scared. (The first time any enemy creature enters the aura or starts its turn there during a battle) Paladin attacks him and hit him, he loses the status. (become frightened of you for 1 minute or until it takes any damage) Paladin uses his bonus action to cast Misty Step and gets away with his aura from Bob.
Bob's Turn 1 Bob runs to Paladin, he enters the aura. (The first time any enemy creature enters the aura or starts its turn there during a battle) he does his things and stops there
Paladin Turn 2 Paladin does his things but stays close to Bob
Bob's Turn 2 He has to make the saving throw because he started his turn inside the aura and fails (The first time any enemy creature enters the aura or starts its turn there during a battle)
Conclusion I think that Bob has to make a saving throw for the duration of the combat everytime he starts his turn in the Paladin's aura of menace and due to the fact that the aura last one hour makes sense to me that our dear Bob has to make it everytime.
I think I see your error. "Enter" generally means the person who is entering moves into the space of the thing that is being entered, not the other way around. So the Paladin moving the aura into an enemy wouldn't be that enemy "entering" the aura, which means they wouldn't make a save then, but once their turn starts they would make a save because they would start their turn within the aura.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The Paladin doesn't move the aura, the Paladin emanates the aura. The strong point of this feat is that you (enemy) have to decide to risk the saving throw and enter the aura the first time, and risk it if you want stay close to him. Let's not forget that is a level 20 feat, it wouldn't be worth in my opinion if the enemy doesn't have to make the save everytime it starts there you get me? Moreover there are a ton of monsters and encounters alike that are immune to fear already. If you are and Scourge Aasimar like my paladin, you'll have almost the same feat as me because of the sub-race ability.
Hi everyone,
me and my party are about to close a 2 years and an half campaing soon.
We started some PvP action so problems started.
My Paladin just got level 20 and he just unlocked the final feat of his Oath of Vengeance.
It states:
I am unsure whether the "first time" clause is only for the first part of the compound sentence, or whether it distributes to both parts
That is, am I supposed to parse this as:
such that any given creature could be made to save at most two times
or as:
such that there is no limit to the number of times a creature can be made to save so long as the battle continues?
Thank you for your help!
I'd say it's first time for both, considering what seems to be the ending of the "first time" statement is after the "or".
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I was thinking more of:
When should you roll the saving throw?:
1) Only the first time an enemy enters the aura and when it starts the turn there
2) The first time it enters the aura and whenever it starts its turn there.
It's pretty clear that he makes one saving throw the first time it enters, i'm just confused on the second part.
If enemies had to be immune to it when the saving throw is passed it would be stated like the Ancient Red Dragon's Frightful Presence :
This is not our case, there is also Moonbeam that has a similar description, I think it should be like this even for the Paladin aura, that states:
The only difference with Moonbeam is that it uses "When a creature enters the spell’s area for the first time " instead of only "The first time", makes sense to me because Moonbeam is an AoE spell fixed in an area of effect that can be moved with an action and not an aura that follows the character and I think enemies inside the Avenging Angel's aura should make the saving throw every turn they start in it but if they leave it for some reason and get back inside after the first time they do it they should not repeat the saving throw for entering it.
In short words, you have to avoid to start the turn inside the paladin aura after the first time you went in it or you have to roll the saving throw.
I dunno about that. I read it more as
The first time (any enemy creature (enters the aura) or (starts its turn there)) during a battle...
I think that's reinforced by the fact that "during a battle" is at the end. It wouldn't make any sense to just leave "the first time" without any clarification, so it's pretty clear that "during a battle" is meant to conclude "the first time". Since "the first time" is at the start and "during a battle" is at the end, it would only make sense that they both apply to everything in-between them.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I get that, but if I start the turn inside that aura it means I've already did the saving throw beacuse i ended up inside.
The first tme you enter it -> roll to save
or starts its turn there during a battle -> roll to save
Also it says that if the paladin damages who is frightened the creature loses the condition.
So with an example witn Paladin Vs Bob:
I'll highlitght red when the statement is false and green when it is true.
Paladin has already activated the Avenging Angel transformation and has the aura activated
Paladin's Turn 1
Paladin moves to Bob
Bob makes the saving throw as soon as he enters the aura for the first time and fails, he's scared.
(The first time any enemy creature enters the aura or starts its turn there during a battle)
Paladin attacks him and hit him, he loses the status.
(become frightened of you for 1 minute or until it takes any damage)
Paladin uses his bonus action to cast Misty Step and gets away with his aura from Bob.
Bob's Turn 1
Bob runs to Paladin, he enters the aura.
(The first time any enemy creature enters the aura or starts its turn there during a battle)
he does his things and stops there
Paladin Turn 2
Paladin does his things but stays close to Bob
Bob's Turn 2
He has to make the saving throw because he started his turn inside the aura and fails
(The first time any enemy creature enters the aura or starts its turn there during a battle)
Conclusion
I think that Bob has to make a saving throw for the duration of the combat everytime he starts his turn in the Paladin's aura of menace and due to the fact that the aura last one hour makes sense to me that our dear Bob has to make it everytime.
I think I see your error. "Enter" generally means the person who is entering moves into the space of the thing that is being entered, not the other way around. So the Paladin moving the aura into an enemy wouldn't be that enemy "entering" the aura, which means they wouldn't make a save then, but once their turn starts they would make a save because they would start their turn within the aura.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The Paladin doesn't move the aura, the Paladin emanates the aura.
The strong point of this feat is that you (enemy) have to decide to risk the saving throw and enter the aura the first time, and risk it if you want stay close to him.
Let's not forget that is a level 20 feat, it wouldn't be worth in my opinion if the enemy doesn't have to make the save everytime it starts there you get me? Moreover there are a ton of monsters and encounters alike that are immune to fear already.
If you are and Scourge Aasimar like my paladin, you'll have almost the same feat as me because of the sub-race ability.