Crossbow expert only practically gives you one bonus action attack per combat because you still need a free hand to load it, yes? I keep hearing people make it sound like an every turn sort of thing and it just sounds off.
It removes the loading property, allowing you to fire more than once per round. It also allows you to attack with a bonus action with a hand crossbow when you make an attack with a one-handed weapon. Since a hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon you can attack as your action then attack again as a bonus action with the Crossbow Expert feat. So a 5th level fighter with a hand crossbow can attack 3 times using his action Attack (multi-attack) then bonus action to attack with the hand crossbow every turn. So yes, this is something they can do every turn.
It does not remove the ammunition property however, so you still need a free hand to load the crossbow (same as longbow and shortbow). So using a melee weapon and a hand crossbow would require you by RAW to drop the melee weapon each round to reload. Most DM's would be willing to handwave this little rule as a coolness factor though (Like using a rapier/hand crossbow combination).
Fun fact: the removal of disadvantage on ranged attack rolls from the feat also applies to any ranged attack, IE:spells
If you have a free hand every turn then you can do the bonus action every turn. So if you have a sword or shield in one hand and a hand-crossbow in the other then you might have difficulties but if you use a hand-crossbow in one and keep the other hand empty then you are good to go.
It removes the loading property, allowing you to fire more than once per round. It also allows you to attack with a bonus action with a hand crossbow when you make an attack with a one-handed weapon. Since a hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon you can attack as your action then attack again as a bonus action with the Crossbow Expert feat. So a 5th level fighter with a hand crossbow can attack 3 times using his action Attack (multi-attack) then bonus action to attack with the hand crossbow every turn. So yes, this is something they can do every turn.
It does not remove the ammunition property however, so you still need a free hand to load the crossbow (same as longbow and shortbow). So using a melee weapon and a hand crossbow would require you by RAW to drop the melee weapon each round to reload. Most DM's would be willing to handwave this little rule as a coolness factor though.
Raw, would dropping your weapon actually work out though? You'd use up your free object interaction and at least miss the targeting attack every other turn by not being able to pick up the sword.
I can agree, its way cooler for the DM to hand wave these details, especially for the investment. But Im trying to wrap my head around how the game designers meant for this to function. It seems like it was more like a pirate drawing and shooting a one shot pistol and throwing it away in the midst of combat, but that seems really underwhelming.
If you have a free hand every turn then you can do the bonus action every turn. So if you have a sword or shield in one hand and a hand-crossbow in the other then you might have difficulties but if you use a hand-crossbow in one and keep the other hand empty then you are good to go.
But you need a weapon in your other hand to proc the bonus action attack with your main attack, right? So you never practically have a free hand.
If you have a free hand every turn then you can do the bonus action every turn. So if you have a sword or shield in one hand and a hand-crossbow in the other then you might have difficulties but if you use a hand-crossbow in one and keep the other hand empty then you are good to go.
But you need a weapon in your other hand to proc the bonus action attack with your main attack, right? So you never practically have a free hand.
No, by dropping the melee weapon and keep holding the hand crossbow you are still by definition wielding a one-handed weapon, the hand crossbow, so you can still attack with it as your action and use your bonus action to attack. The hand you wield it in doesn't matter.
But you need a weapon in your other hand to proc the bonus action attack with your main attack, right? So you never practically have a free hand.
Nope. A hand-crossbow is a one-handed weapon so using one to attack with meets the requirement to make the BA attack with it too.
It ties in with your post above, it isn't so much "underwhelming" as it is boring IMO. The cool image of using a sword/crossbow combo doesn't really work but turning a single hand-crossbow into somewhat of a machine gun works fine. More power gaming that cool roleplay unfortunately.
Even RAW, you could attack with a melee weapon every round and shoot the hand crossbow every other round:
Round 1: attack with rapier (action), sheathe rapier (object interaction), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Round N: draw rapier (object interaction), attack with rapier (action)
Round N+1: attack with rapier (action), sheathe rapier (object interaction), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Big drawback here is that you don't get opportunity attacks for the rounds while your melee weapon is unequipped...
Or a worse version that risks losing your weapon but allows you to shoot the crossbow every round:
Round 1: attack with rapier (action), drop rapier to the ground (free), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Round N: pick up rapier off the ground (object interaction), attack with rapier (action). drop rapier to the ground (free), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
With this version you never get to do opportunity attacks, and you risk someone else picking up your melee weapon or being moved away from the melee weapon in between your turns.
Round 1 attack with rapier as an action, sheat rapier as free object interaction and attack with hand crossbow as bonus action.
Round 2 attack with hand crossbow as an action, attack with hand crossbow as bonus action and draw rapier as free object interaction
Round 3 rince and repeat
At any moment you could make an opportinity attack with either an unarmed strike or the rapier you are wielding
Sure, that works too! I assumed the person would prefer melee attacks every round, but since Rapier is a dex weapon, and Crossbow Master allows you to do ranged attacks without disadvantage, you are probably right that 2 hand crossbow attacks (2d6 damage max) is better than one rapier attack (1d8 damage max).
If you have a free hand every turn then you can do the bonus action every turn. So if you have a sword or shield in one hand and a hand-crossbow in the other then you might have difficulties but if you use a hand-crossbow in one and keep the other hand empty then you are good to go.
Absolutely, and to me you need the readiness of your free hand.
Even RAW, you could attack with a melee weapon every round and shoot the hand crossbow every other round:
Round 1: attack with rapier (action), sheathe rapier (object interaction), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Round N: draw rapier (object interaction), attack with rapier (action)
Round N+1: attack with rapier (action), sheathe rapier (object interaction), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Big drawback here is that you don't get opportunity attacks for the rounds while your melee weapon is unequipped...
Or a worse version that risks losing your weapon but allows you to shoot the crossbow every round:
Round 1: attack with rapier (action), drop rapier to the ground (free), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Round N: pick up rapier off the ground (object interaction), attack with rapier (action). drop rapier to the ground (free), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
With this version you never get to do opportunity attacks, and you risk someone else picking up your melee weapon or being moved away from the melee weapon in between your turns.
I'd adjudicate against this as I don't see that you could practically juggle your weapons back and forth like this in combat.
"Please let me put away my weapon so I can shoot you!"
I'd adjudicate against this as I don't see that you could practically juggle your weapons back and forth like this in combat.
"Please let me put away my weapon so I can shoot you!"
I'd say you can use your sword and shoot with your loaded hand crossbow or load and shoot with your hand crossbow then reload and shoot again.
I'd agree that the optics of it aren't great but ruleswise it is absolutely possible. Drawing and loading ammunition is done as part of the attack that uses the ammunition so the fact that your other hand was occupied by another weapon before your attack with the hand-crossbow doesn't limit you. Of course a DM might rule otherwise but here you might consider balancing issues as you would effectively limit the viability of other weapons in favour of just using the hand-crossbow for all attacks.
Even RAW, you could attack with a melee weapon every round and shoot the hand crossbow every other round:
Round 1: attack with rapier (action), sheathe rapier (object interaction), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Round N: draw rapier (object interaction), attack with rapier (action)
Round N+1: attack with rapier (action), sheathe rapier (object interaction), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Big drawback here is that you don't get opportunity attacks for the rounds while your melee weapon is unequipped...
Or a worse version that risks losing your weapon but allows you to shoot the crossbow every round:
Round 1: attack with rapier (action), drop rapier to the ground (free), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
Round N: pick up rapier off the ground (object interaction), attack with rapier (action). drop rapier to the ground (free), shoot hand crossbow (bonus action)
With this version you never get to do opportunity attacks, and you risk someone else picking up your melee weapon or being moved away from the melee weapon in between your turns.
I'd adjudicate against this as I don't see that you could practically juggle your weapons back and forth like this in combat.
"Please let me put away my weapon so I can shoot you!"
You ignore the loading property of crossbows with which you are proficient. ...
When you use the Attack action and attack with a one-handed weapon, you can use a bonus action to attack with a hand crossbow you are holding.
I'd say you can use your sword and shoot with your loaded hand crossbow or load and shoot with your hand crossbow then reload and shoot again.
I was talking purely about what's possible in RAW.
What you described (shoot with a loaded hand crossbow) is not allowed in RAW, because loading is an inseparable part of the attack. You are always assumed to load your weapon right before you shoot it.
I'd adjudicate against this as I don't see that you could practically juggle your weapons back and forth like this in combat.
"Please let me put away my weapon so I can shoot you!"
I'd say you can use your sword and shoot with your loaded hand crossbow or load and shoot with your hand crossbow then reload and shoot again.
I'd agree that the optics of it aren't great but ruleswise it is absolutely possible. Drawing and loading ammunition is done as part of the attack that uses the ammunition so the fact that your other hand was occupied by another weapon before your attack with the hand-crossbow doesn't limit you. Of course a DM might rule otherwise but here you might consider balancing issues as you would effectively limit the viability of other weapons in favour of just using the hand-crossbow for all attacks.
As long as I gave a player early notice of the ruling and allowed options to adjust the character build as desired, I hope that there wouldn't be a problem. Crossbow expert is a strong feat and I don't think that my take on it would make it weak.
I'd limit the viability of other weapon use to combined use with a loaded crossbow (probably in an early round of combat if it was/I allowed for the weapon to be preloaded^) or to using the hand-crossbow for all attacks. Two shots per round are pretty great for a character who's an expert with the crossbow. I think the feat would still have strength, just without the juggling.
As long as I gave a player early notice of the ruling and allowed options to adjust the character build as desired, I hope that there wouldn't be a problem. Crossbow expert is a strong feat and I don't think that my take on it would make it weak.
I'd limit the viability of other weapon use to combined use with a loaded crossbow (probably in an early round of combat if it was/I allowed for the weapon to be preloaded^) or to using the hand-crossbow for all attacks. Two shots per round are pretty great for a character who's an expert with the crossbow. I think the feat would still have strength, just without the juggling.
I guess I just think it's boring to say that machine-gun crossbows are ok but dual-wielding isn't. But that's just an opinion, you are fine going in another direction.
What is a balance issue though is that you are basically giving your players a choice between using the feat or making opportunity attacks, that's a fairly harsh restriction to impose just because you don't like the visual of it. Sure some special cases of natural weapons races might still work (Tabaxi Rogue perhaps) but for most the 1+STR with very limited add-ons or special effects just isn't viable in the long run.
As long as I gave a player early notice of the ruling and allowed options to adjust the character build as desired, I hope that there wouldn't be a problem. Crossbow expert is a strong feat and I don't think that my take on it would make it weak.
I'd limit the viability of other weapon use to combined use with a loaded crossbow (probably in an early round of combat if it was/I allowed for the weapon to be preloaded^) or to using the hand-crossbow for all attacks. Two shots per round are pretty great for a character who's an expert with the crossbow. I think the feat would still have strength, just without the juggling.
I guess I just think it's boring to say that machine-gun crossbows are ok but dual-wielding isn't. But that's just an opinion, you are fine going in another direction.
What is a balance issue though is that you are basically giving your players a choice between using the feat or making opportunity attacks, that's a fairly harsh restriction to impose just because you don't like the visual of it. Sure some special cases of natural weapons races might still work (Tabaxi Rogue perhaps) but for most the 1+STR with very limited add-ons or special effects just isn't viable in the long run.
You can't make an opportunity attack with a hand crossbow in general. Even though crossbow expert lets you make crossbow attacks in melee range without disadvantage, its still a ranged attack. Opportunity attacks have to be ranged attacks.
Unless you use your hand crossbow as an awkward improvised weapon.
Is it intentional that the second benefit of Crossbow Expert helps ranged spell attacks?
Yes, it’s intentional. When you make a ranged attack roll within 5 feet of an enemy, you normally suffer disadvantage. The second benefit of Crossbow Expert prevents you from suffering that disadvantage, whether or not the ranged attack is with a crossbow.
When designing a feat with a narrow use, we consider adding at least one element that can benefit a character more broadly—a bit of mastery that your character brings from one situation to another. The second benefit of Crossbow Expert is such an element, as is the first benefit of Great Weapon Master. That element in Crossbow Expert shows that some of the character’s expertise with one type of thing—crossbows, in this case—transfers to other things.
Do the first and third benefits of Crossbow Expert turn a hand crossbow into a semiautomatic weapon?
The short answer is no.
The first benefit of the feat lets you ignore the loading property of the hand crossbow if you’re proficient with that weapon. The upshot is that you can fire it more than once if you have a feature like Extra Attack. You’re still limited, however, by the fact that the weapon has the ammunition property. The latter property requires you to have a bolt to fire from the hand crossbow, and the hand crossbow isn’t going to load itself (unless it’s magical or a gnomish invention). You need to load each bolt into the weapon, and doing so requires a hand.
To dig deeper into this point, take a look at the following sentence in the definition of the ammunition property: “Drawing the ammunition from a quiver, case, or other container is part of the attack.” The sentence tells us two important things. First, you’re assumed to be drawing—that is, extracting with your hand—the ammunition from a container. Second, the act of drawing the ammunition is included in the attack and therefore doesn’t require its own action and doesn’t use up your free interaction with an object on your turn.
What does that all mean for a hand crossbow? It means Crossbow Expert makes it possible to fire a hand crossbow more than once with a feature like Extra Attack, provided that you have enough ammunition and you have a hand free to load it for each shot.
Does Crossbow Expert let you fire a hand crossbow and then fire it again as a bonus action?
It does! Take a look at the feat’s third benefit. It says you can attack with a hand crossbow as a bonus action when you use the Attack action to attack with a one-handed weapon. A hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon, so it can, indeed, be used for both attacks, assuming you have a hand free to load the hand crossbow between the two attacks.
Dungeon Dudes came to similar conclusions.
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Crossbow expert only practically gives you one bonus action attack per combat because you still need a free hand to load it, yes? I keep hearing people make it sound like an every turn sort of thing and it just sounds off.
It removes the loading property, allowing you to fire more than once per round. It also allows you to attack with a bonus action with a hand crossbow when you make an attack with a one-handed weapon. Since a hand crossbow is a one-handed weapon you can attack as your action then attack again as a bonus action with the Crossbow Expert feat. So a 5th level fighter with a hand crossbow can attack 3 times using his action Attack (multi-attack) then bonus action to attack with the hand crossbow every turn. So yes, this is something they can do every turn.
It does not remove the ammunition property however, so you still need a free hand to load the crossbow (same as longbow and shortbow). So using a melee weapon and a hand crossbow would require you by RAW to drop the melee weapon each round to reload. Most DM's would be willing to handwave this little rule as a coolness factor though (Like using a rapier/hand crossbow combination).
Fun fact: the removal of disadvantage on ranged attack rolls from the feat also applies to any ranged attack, IE:spells
If you have a free hand every turn then you can do the bonus action every turn. So if you have a sword or shield in one hand and a hand-crossbow in the other then you might have difficulties but if you use a hand-crossbow in one and keep the other hand empty then you are good to go.
Raw, would dropping your weapon actually work out though? You'd use up your free object interaction and at least miss the targeting attack every other turn by not being able to pick up the sword.
I can agree, its way cooler for the DM to hand wave these details, especially for the investment. But Im trying to wrap my head around how the game designers meant for this to function. It seems like it was more like a pirate drawing and shooting a one shot pistol and throwing it away in the midst of combat, but that seems really underwhelming.
But you need a weapon in your other hand to proc the bonus action attack with your main attack, right? So you never practically have a free hand.
No, by dropping the melee weapon and keep holding the hand crossbow you are still by definition wielding a one-handed weapon, the hand crossbow, so you can still attack with it as your action and use your bonus action to attack. The hand you wield it in doesn't matter.
Nope. A hand-crossbow is a one-handed weapon so using one to attack with meets the requirement to make the BA attack with it too.
It ties in with your post above, it isn't so much "underwhelming" as it is boring IMO. The cool image of using a sword/crossbow combo doesn't really work but turning a single hand-crossbow into somewhat of a machine gun works fine. More power gaming that cool roleplay unfortunately.
Oh neat. I wasn't thinking about it as one crossbow. That makes a lot more sense for why people assume you can always proc it, thanks!
Even RAW, you could attack with a melee weapon every round and shoot the hand crossbow every other round:
Big drawback here is that you don't get opportunity attacks for the rounds while your melee weapon is unequipped...
Or a worse version that risks losing your weapon but allows you to shoot the crossbow every round:
With this version you never get to do opportunity attacks, and you risk someone else picking up your melee weapon or being moved away from the melee weapon in between your turns.
Round 1 attack with rapier as an action, sheat rapier as free object interaction and attack with hand crossbow as bonus action.
Round 2 attack with hand crossbow as an action, attack with hand crossbow as bonus action and draw rapier as free object interaction
Round 3 rince and repeat
At any moment you could make an opportinity attack with either an unarmed strike or the rapier you are wielding
Need to do that in different order though, the BA isn't available until you have taken the attack action.
Sure, that works too! I assumed the person would prefer melee attacks every round, but since Rapier is a dex weapon, and Crossbow Master allows you to do ranged attacks without disadvantage, you are probably right that 2 hand crossbow attacks (2d6 damage max) is better than one rapier attack (1d8 damage max).
Another davantage is for you to keep your rapier on your person at all time.
Absolutely, and to me you need the readiness of your free hand.
I'd adjudicate against this as I don't see that you could practically juggle your weapons back and forth like this in combat.
"Please let me put away my weapon so I can shoot you!"
Crossbow Expert says that:
I'd say you can use your sword and shoot with your loaded hand crossbow or load and shoot with your hand crossbow then reload and shoot again.
I'd agree that the optics of it aren't great but ruleswise it is absolutely possible. Drawing and loading ammunition is done as part of the attack that uses the ammunition so the fact that your other hand was occupied by another weapon before your attack with the hand-crossbow doesn't limit you.
Of course a DM might rule otherwise but here you might consider balancing issues as you would effectively limit the viability of other weapons in favour of just using the hand-crossbow for all attacks.
I was talking purely about what's possible in RAW.
What you described (shoot with a loaded hand crossbow) is not allowed in RAW, because loading is an inseparable part of the attack. You are always assumed to load your weapon right before you shoot it.
As long as I gave a player early notice of the ruling and allowed options to adjust the character build as desired, I hope that there wouldn't be a problem. Crossbow expert is a strong feat and I don't think that my take on it would make it weak.
I'd limit the viability of other weapon use to combined use with a loaded crossbow (probably in an early round of combat if it was/I allowed for the weapon to be preloaded^) or to using the hand-crossbow for all attacks. Two shots per round are pretty great for a character who's an expert with the crossbow. I think the feat would still have strength, just without the juggling.
I guess I just think it's boring to say that machine-gun crossbows are ok but dual-wielding isn't. But that's just an opinion, you are fine going in another direction.
What is a balance issue though is that you are basically giving your players a choice between using the feat or making opportunity attacks, that's a fairly harsh restriction to impose just because you don't like the visual of it. Sure some special cases of natural weapons races might still work (Tabaxi Rogue perhaps) but for most the 1+STR with very limited add-ons or special effects just isn't viable in the long run.
You can't make an opportunity attack with a hand crossbow in general. Even though crossbow expert lets you make crossbow attacks in melee range without disadvantage, its still a ranged attack. Opportunity attacks have to be ranged attacks.
Unless you use your hand crossbow as an awkward improvised weapon.
So far the Sage Advice compendium has covered has had limited feats coverage on:
Dungeon Dudes came to similar conclusions.