Hey there, in the default RAW are players free to swap background skills? From my reading I was sort of under the impression that background is chosen before the class skills (even though class is chosen before background).
There is no section like pg125 of the 14 rules about Customizing a Background. Are they pretty much set in stone this time around?
I have a player saying dndbeyond acts as if they can be freely chosen. He has a Druid with the Acolyte background and since both give (or can give) Religion he is free to pick Stealth in the character creator. Is that intended?
I don't really care either way, just curious if that was the intent.
Hey there, in the default RAW are players free to swap background skills? From my reading I was sort of under the impression that background is chosen before the class skills (even though class is chosen before background).
There is no section like pg125 of the 14 rules about Customizing a Background. Are they pretty much set in stone this time around?
I have a player saying dndbeyond acts as if they can be freely chosen. He has a Druid with the Acolyte background and since both give (or can give) Religion he is free to pick Stealth in the character creator. Is that intended?
I don't really care either way, just curious if that was the intent.
You can choose your background and class skills in whatever order you want.
The 2024 PHB does not include any rules about customizing backgrounds, but the 2024 DMG does. Basically, if what you want from your background doesn't fit with any of the options in the PHB, the idea is that you work with your DM to come up with a more fitting one.
I can't see why they would intentionally remove the option. However, I can't see why they would intentionally move from a free choice of +2 and +1 to any two different attributes or +1 to any three different attributes, but they clearly did.
One potential explanation for the latter is that the D&D One team was siloed from the teams for other projects (which seems consistent with other changes not carrying over to the 2024 PHB).
All that is to say there's no way of knowing until they say one way or another. D&D Beyond isn't really official, but it has been getting what appear to be errata updates ahead of any official errata release. In this case, it could very well be a holdover from 2014 that they haven't adjusted for.
Quote from wagnarokkr>You can choose your background and class skills in whatever order you want.
Does the PHB say this anywhere? I can only see that class is selected (but not skills). Then background is selected. Finally, class skills are selected.
Quote from wagnarokkr>You can choose your background and class skills in whatever order you want.
Does the PHB say this anywhere? I can only see that class is selected (but not skills). Then background is selected. Finally, class skills are selected.
You can choose it in whatever order you want in your head or on paper - and doing so is a good idea so you don't have to go back and change things later. However the D&D Beyond interface expects you to choose in a specific order.
It's also a good idea to have a subclass in mind even if you're starting at level 1 or 2, and know what class features and subclass features are in your future, as that can affect what skills you choose to have proficiency in. Some species also have things which can affect what you choose. For example, all Elves have a bonus proficiency in either Insight, Perception, or Survival.
Quote from wagnarokkr>You can choose your background and class skills in whatever order you want.
Does the PHB say this anywhere? I can only see that class is selected (but not skills). Then background is selected. Finally, class skills are selected.
You can choose it in whatever order you want in your head or on paper - and doing so is a good idea so you don't have to go back and change things later. However the D&D Beyond interface expects you to choose in a specific order.
It's also a good idea to have a subclass in mind even if you're starting at level 1 or 2, and know what class features and subclass features are in your future, as that can affect what skills you choose to have proficiency in. Some species also have things which can affect what you choose. For example, all Elves have a bonus proficiency in either Insight, Perception, or Survival.
Well, yes and no.
The D&D Beyond character generator will walk you through things in a given order if you use the next/previous buttons. It lets you click on the topics on top of the page and flow through the process in any order you would like. Default for those who want or need guidance, and full control for those who don't. You can also go back to selections you made previously and CHANGE THEM.
Very free-form, unless you choose to accept the guidance.
I think you are missing the reality that unless you are rolling attribute dice, there is ZERO requirement for anyone to watch or police any aspect of your character generation. Look over the product and evaluate if it is a legal product of the system? Sure.
But nobody is going to retroactively tell you that you built the character in the wrong order.
If there is no enforcement and no penalty, then there is no rule. Real life evaluation tool.
Then what is the point of classes having a set list of skills and backgrounds having a set duo of skills? You are saying everyone can just pick a class and background with any two skills overlapping, then pick any two skills in the game.
Just spitballing here, its really not a big deal to me either way. But it seems odd.
Because those selections wouldn't verify as legal when checked, would they?
You are TRYING to make this hard.
Edit:
Making your choices in any order and making any choices are VERY different things.
Double Edit:
Going back to the issue with your Druid/Acolyte . . .. During character creation, he can refuse to select Religion but MUST select one of the other options presented AT THE TIME he avoided Religion. Stealth is NOT an option during the Druid skill selection, and Acolyte provides NO OPTIONS. He gets Insight and Religion, period.
Again, making choices in any order and making any choice are not the same thing.
Well, I am asking about the latter as that is what my player is doing.
He has chosen the druid class and selected Religion and Survival. He then picks the Acolyte background. Since Acolyte also gives Religion, he is free to pick any skill in the game.
Going back to the issue with your Druid/Acolyte . . .. During character creation, he can refuse to select Religion but MUST select one of the other options presented AT THE TIME he avoided Religion. Stealth is NOT an option during the Druid skill selection, and Acolyte provides NO OPTIONS. He gets Insight and Religion, period.
I appreciate the help. Please don't think I'm just being a jerk. But where does it say this? Is this what you are deciding, or what the rules say somewhere?
When you take a class, you pick the number of skills identified from the list.
When you pick a background, you get the skills listed.
Claiming you need a rule that says "no exceptions" is explicitly trying to avoid the given instructions that have nothing to do with the order of events.
System details vary greatly, but character creation works the same in every system I've touched since 1979. When the process says make a choice from a given list, your options are what's on the list. SOME systems explicitly say if you are assigned a duplicate item, select any other that you wish. Others say things like if you are assigned a duplicate item, you double the benefit from that item. This rule set says neither.
I'm not saying I need a rule saying 'no exceptions'. I'm saying there is nothing offering guidance for this situation that I can find, other than the character creation guidelines saying yes, order does in fact matter. They even label a section in the PHB 'Hold that thought' meaning dont select skills from your class yet (until after your background is chosen).
The druid class has a limited list of skills to choose from. As you say (and the character creation guidance in the PHB does not say) is that when you pick a class you pick a number of skills from the class list.
The acolyte background has two skills. When you pick a background, you get those two skills.
What happens when a player picks a skill for their class which their background also provides (assuming the order chosen does not matter)? I can't find anything about it. This skill overlap is what I'm talking about. Sorry if I'm being unclear. Not trying to be hostile.
Having looked through the PHB24 chapter on character creation, it does lay out a specific order for choosing your options. You select your Class, but record only the chosen class, starting level and Armour Training. You then choose your Background, record your proficiencies THEN record the proficiencies gained from your class. Thus, you shouldn’t get into the situation of your Background skill proficiencies being duplicates of your Class-derived skills.
There is still a risk of Tool proficiencies being duplicated, as some characteristic background/class combinations do lead to duplicates (Herbalism Kit from Hermit and Druid, Thieves’ Tools from Criminal and Rogue). There’s no rule in the PHB to let you swap one. Thus, the player is dependent on their DM to allow them to customise their background.
Yea the answer from @ThelenyiWhinlawis the correct one. If you follow what's lined out in the PHB then you pick your skills from your class after you get the skills from your background and thus there should be no duplicates and you are limited to the skills as specified by your class (so no free-whatever-you-like picks either).
To try to be practically helpful, you could suggest the player look at the Scribe background. Thematically, it works just about as well as Acolyte for a character with a background associated with a religious institution. It gives the same ASIs as Acolyte, except Dexterity instead of Charisma. It gives Perception (good for Druids) and Investigation (less so). Both give Calligrapher’s Supplies proficiency. Scribe then gives Skilled, which lets the character gain Stealth (plus a couple of other skills or tools they fancy). The only downside would be if Magic Initiate (Cleric) is really critical to their build.
Yea the answer from @ThelenyiWhinlawis the correct one. If you follow what's lined out in the PHB then you pick your skills from your class after you get the skills from your background and thus there should be no duplicates and you are limited to the skills as specified by your class (so no free-whatever-you-like picks either).
The order is correct (but incomplete), but your conclusion is not.
Technically, the order of acquiring proficiencies is:
Record Background proficiencies (2 skills + 1 tool).
Record Class proficiencies (2+ skills, 0+ tools, 0+ musical instruments)
Record Species proficiencies (0+ skills. 0+ tools, 0+ musical instruments)
All Elves (a core species) get Perception proficiency which conflicts with 3 of the core backgrounds.
Looking at species beyond core, Tabaxi (Perception and Stealth) is in a worse situation conflicting with 6 of the core backgrounds.
However, even just the Core content is problematic and needs a method to resolve the conflicts.
Hey there, in the default RAW are players free to swap background skills? From my reading I was sort of under the impression that background is chosen before the class skills (even though class is chosen before background).
There is no section like pg125 of the 14 rules about Customizing a Background. Are they pretty much set in stone this time around?
I have a player saying dndbeyond acts as if they can be freely chosen. He has a Druid with the Acolyte background and since both give (or can give) Religion he is free to pick Stealth in the character creator. Is that intended?
I don't really care either way, just curious if that was the intent.
You can choose your background and class skills in whatever order you want.
The 2024 PHB does not include any rules about customizing backgrounds, but the 2024 DMG does. Basically, if what you want from your background doesn't fit with any of the options in the PHB, the idea is that you work with your DM to come up with a more fitting one.
pronouns: he/she/they
RAW, no. RAI, who knows.
I can't see why they would intentionally remove the option. However, I can't see why they would intentionally move from a free choice of +2 and +1 to any two different attributes or +1 to any three different attributes, but they clearly did.
One potential explanation for the latter is that the D&D One team was siloed from the teams for other projects (which seems consistent with other changes not carrying over to the 2024 PHB).
All that is to say there's no way of knowing until they say one way or another. D&D Beyond isn't really official, but it has been getting what appear to be errata updates ahead of any official errata release. In this case, it could very well be a holdover from 2014 that they haven't adjusted for.
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Does the PHB say this anywhere? I can only see that class is selected (but not skills). Then background is selected. Finally, class skills are selected.
You can choose it in whatever order you want in your head or on paper - and doing so is a good idea so you don't have to go back and change things later. However the D&D Beyond interface expects you to choose in a specific order.
It's also a good idea to have a subclass in mind even if you're starting at level 1 or 2, and know what class features and subclass features are in your future, as that can affect what skills you choose to have proficiency in. Some species also have things which can affect what you choose. For example, all Elves have a bonus proficiency in either Insight, Perception, or Survival.
Well, yes and no.
The D&D Beyond character generator will walk you through things in a given order if you use the next/previous buttons. It lets you click on the topics on top of the page and flow through the process in any order you would like. Default for those who want or need guidance, and full control for those who don't. You can also go back to selections you made previously and CHANGE THEM.
Very free-form, unless you choose to accept the guidance.
Thanks, where does it say this though? (that you can choose in whatever order?) I see a set order and no way to swap skills. What am I missing?
I totally understand this is how 14 was, and its how I always played. But it seems ambiguous in 24.
I think you are missing the reality that unless you are rolling attribute dice, there is ZERO requirement for anyone to watch or police any aspect of your character generation. Look over the product and evaluate if it is a legal product of the system? Sure.
But nobody is going to retroactively tell you that you built the character in the wrong order.
If there is no enforcement and no penalty, then there is no rule. Real life evaluation tool.
Then what is the point of classes having a set list of skills and backgrounds having a set duo of skills? You are saying everyone can just pick a class and background with any two skills overlapping, then pick any two skills in the game.
Just spitballing here, its really not a big deal to me either way. But it seems odd.
Because those selections wouldn't verify as legal when checked, would they?
You are TRYING to make this hard.
Edit:
Making your choices in any order and making any choices are VERY different things.
Double Edit:
Going back to the issue with your Druid/Acolyte . . .. During character creation, he can refuse to select Religion but MUST select one of the other options presented AT THE TIME he avoided Religion. Stealth is NOT an option during the Druid skill selection, and Acolyte provides NO OPTIONS. He gets Insight and Religion, period.
Again, making choices in any order and making any choice are not the same thing.
Well, I am asking about the latter as that is what my player is doing.
He has chosen the druid class and selected Religion and Survival. He then picks the Acolyte background. Since Acolyte also gives Religion, he is free to pick any skill in the game.
I appreciate the help. Please don't think I'm just being a jerk. But where does it say this? Is this what you are deciding, or what the rules say somewhere?
When you take a class, you pick the number of skills identified from the list.
When you pick a background, you get the skills listed.
Claiming you need a rule that says "no exceptions" is explicitly trying to avoid the given instructions that have nothing to do with the order of events.
System details vary greatly, but character creation works the same in every system I've touched since 1979. When the process says make a choice from a given list, your options are what's on the list. SOME systems explicitly say if you are assigned a duplicate item, select any other that you wish. Others say things like if you are assigned a duplicate item, you double the benefit from that item. This rule set says neither.
What is NOT said is as relevant as what is.
I'm not saying I need a rule saying 'no exceptions'. I'm saying there is nothing offering guidance for this situation that I can find, other than the character creation guidelines saying yes, order does in fact matter. They even label a section in the PHB 'Hold that thought' meaning dont select skills from your class yet (until after your background is chosen).
The druid class has a limited list of skills to choose from. As you say (and the character creation guidance in the PHB does not say) is that when you pick a class you pick a number of skills from the class list.
The acolyte background has two skills. When you pick a background, you get those two skills.
What happens when a player picks a skill for their class which their background also provides (assuming the order chosen does not matter)? I can't find anything about it. This skill overlap is what I'm talking about. Sorry if I'm being unclear. Not trying to be hostile.
Having looked through the PHB24 chapter on character creation, it does lay out a specific order for choosing your options. You select your Class, but record only the chosen class, starting level and Armour Training. You then choose your Background, record your proficiencies THEN record the proficiencies gained from your class. Thus, you shouldn’t get into the situation of your Background skill proficiencies being duplicates of your Class-derived skills.
There is still a risk of Tool proficiencies being duplicated, as some characteristic background/class combinations do lead to duplicates (Herbalism Kit from Hermit and Druid, Thieves’ Tools from Criminal and Rogue). There’s no rule in the PHB to let you swap one. Thus, the player is dependent on their DM to allow them to customise their background.
Let me try this again, in as simple language as I can think of.
The task at hand is pick skills from the class list. I believe you have agreed that you understand this is the task.
Your repeated question is where does it say we can't pick skills NOT on the task list?
The answer you seem to keep refusing to accept: In the definition of the task: pick skills FROM THE CLASS LIST
Thanks hustonjj, sorry if I'm annoying you. I think my question has been answered, thanks for the help.
Yea the answer from @ThelenyiWhinlawis the correct one. If you follow what's lined out in the PHB then you pick your skills from your class after you get the skills from your background and thus there should be no duplicates and you are limited to the skills as specified by your class (so no free-whatever-you-like picks either).
To try to be practically helpful, you could suggest the player look at the Scribe background. Thematically, it works just about as well as Acolyte for a character with a background associated with a religious institution. It gives the same ASIs as Acolyte, except Dexterity instead of Charisma. It gives Perception (good for Druids) and Investigation (less so). Both give Calligrapher’s Supplies proficiency. Scribe then gives Skilled, which lets the character gain Stealth (plus a couple of other skills or tools they fancy). The only downside would be if Magic Initiate (Cleric) is really critical to their build.
The order is correct (but incomplete), but your conclusion is not.
Technically, the order of acquiring proficiencies is:
All Elves (a core species) get Perception proficiency which conflicts with 3 of the core backgrounds.
Looking at species beyond core, Tabaxi (Perception and Stealth) is in a worse situation conflicting with 6 of the core backgrounds.
However, even just the Core content is problematic and needs a method to resolve the conflicts.
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