A gish basically. I'm wanting some suggested builds. In reentering a campaign at level 11, things look like they will proceed to the end game and my thinking thus far on a build is this.
1. He isn't a wizard. He has some strong talent and in my head that leads to level 5 spells maybe 6. Which means he will end up being between (L9 and 12). On entering the game in thinking at least 5 levels in wizard already.
2.I'm not opposed to skirmishing, but its not my (player) instinct. When I'm in the fray I struggle to even consider leaving it.
3. The party has a barbarian, trickster rogue, archer ranger, and a shepherd druid who loves to heal.
4. Battlemaster, psi warrior, rune knight and even champion all have potential I think although im not opposed to other classes or subclasses.
5. I think I want the tough feat in play and warcaster although again I'm not opposed to operating without.
If you want to be a tanky caster, I recommend Bladesinger Wizard. Being able to attack and cast a cantrip in the same action is a lot of fun. On top of that, getting +INT to AC is pretty sweet.
The other obvious gish option is Hexblade Warlock. However, if you want to focus on martial combat with only a taste of magic, I'd recommend considering Eldritch Knight, especially if you plan to take any levels of Wizard.
What are your other considerations? What makes sense for the character narratively?
That's the thing it's new, my thoughts are still percolating. He is a mercenary I think. His magical talent having seen a sudden increase in power. I dont think he is lithe, so possibly not particularly dexterous but he is smart, and protective (I keep getting this image of him using telekinetic feat to remove people away from danger...not a given).
If I do a 12 wiz 8 other split I think id go for a more dex like build and lean into using that sixth level slot for tashas otherworldly disguise or tensors transformation.
I'm not opposed to a warlock but ive done hexblade so it would have to be something different as a build and I've only ever considered hexblade as a martial build. And I'm convinced he has at least 3 levels in a martial background.
I'm currently playing a gish that I'm having a lot of fun with, a Swords Bard/Swashbuckler/Hexblade. Sure it looks like a skirmisher, but usually I'm using that mobility to waltz past the front line and take out the back line casters.
Alternately have you considered doing a Paladin/Warlock multiclass? Paladin smite spells are very gishy, right? Conquest + Undead looks very sexy with all the ways to cause fear and then use the fear to lock them down and apply constant psychic damage. Vengeance + Hexblade can do some nasty single target crit fishing
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
A gish basically. I'm wanting some suggested builds. In reentering a campaign at level 11, things look like they will proceed to the end game and my thinking thus far on a build is this.
1. He isn't a wizard. He has some strong talent and in my head that leads to level 5 spells maybe 6. Which means he will end up being between (L9 and 12). On entering the game in thinking at least 5 levels in wizard already.
2.I'm not opposed to skirmishing, but its not my (player) instinct. When I'm in the fray I struggle to even consider leaving it.
3. The party has a barbarian, trickster rogue, archer ranger, and a shepherd druid who loves to heal.
4. Battlemaster, psi warrior, rune knight and even champion all have potential I think although im not opposed to other classes or subclasses.
5. I think I want the tough feat in play and warcaster although again I'm not opposed to operating without.
So please fire away your thoughts.
The first thing to answer is whether you want to punch with Strength/Dexterity (so probably an Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger Wizard, since Arcane Trickster is taken, and I doubt you want to be a second druid for Moon Druid shenanigans) or your mental stat. Then for your mental stat, pick one:
Charisma: Hexblade Warlock, possibly dipped into to support some other Charisma class, which is probably Paladin but might be Bard.
Intelligence: Artificer, Battlesmith (for any weapon) or Armorer (for just the Armor's weapons), possibly dipped into to support Bladesinger (Bladesingers want Int and Dex, so this is uncommon, but it can come up, e.g. with a Tortle Bladesinger)
You can also keep Bladesinger (swinging with Dex) and dip into Artificer for artillerist, to use the eldritch cannon as magical augmentation, but eldritch cannons are better mixed with sorcerer if possible, to maximize the efficiency of making them - you want your L1 slots for Shield and Absorb Elements.
Wisdom: Shillelagh or Magic Stone, probably mounted on a Cleric slinging spells like Spirit Guardians and possibly Booming Blade, but thanks to Tasha's it's possible to lean into being a Wisdom-based Ranger.
Pretty much all of these have different playstyles, so I agree with Memnosyne - you need to give us more detail than just what you've given us - especially since you told us he isn't a wizard but you want him to be a wizard, which is just confusing.
Bear in mind, since you listed War Caster, the feat does three things:
You have advantage on Concentration saves, which Warlocks can get with an invocation; this stacks with the Bladesinger bonus to Con saves, as well as with genuine proficiency, which you can get from Artificer (or Sorcerer).
You can perform the S component of a spell with a weapon in hand, which is almost always useless, but does matter when casting Booming Blade with a two-handed weapon or with a shield in your other hand, since in either case you can't simply drop something to have a hand free for the spell. Artificers fix this themselves, because they can guarantee the weapon is a focus which is required for the spell.
You can cast single-target spells as OAs, which is generally best with save spells, like Toll the Dead and Banishment.
So your build has to be interested those things without fixing too many of them itself for the feat to be warranted.
Haste, fireball, lightning bolt, banishment these are all things id like our party to be able to there out. Not only for the group but the old pools of radiance games were my start into fantasy and fighter mage was my go to class. He is unlikely to have learnt many out of combat things, just what he had to to progress. Too practical, too busy looking for the next problem.
I think of this guy as the guy that sets the stage before wading onto the scene. Thoughtful so definitely an intelligence guy.
OOh and when I said he wasn't a wizard, that's a rp thing. He is a mercenary/soldier/tactician. He has a talent for magic (arcane levels) but he carries himself more like a soldier.
Warlock could work (flavoured as wizard taught) but without hexblade is fighter/bladelock that viable?
Honestly, I would still recommend just going with Bladesinger as a pure caster. There are plenty of martial spells like Steel Wind Strike that you'll enjoy using at higher levels and you'll have the higher level spell slots to up cast your signature spells, such as Fireball.
If you need to multiclass, you might consider dipping into other full caster classes, like the College of Sword Bard, or War Domain Cleric to pick up some extra features and versatility without sacrificing arcane power.
As you start facing higher CR monsters, you'll want your magic to scale in potency accordingly.
Tempest cleric. Heavy armor, martial weapons, offensive powers and spells. Makes good use of warcaster. And some extra healing, in case the Druid goes down.
Won’t get you fireball but there’s some good AoE spells, and you do get banishment.
Why not just an eldritch knight all the way? Could still use telekinetic if you wanted, fighters get extra asi's too. More attacks, think 3 at level 11 already?
Could throw in fey touched for misty step and perhaps either hex/hunters mark for more damage or just gift of alacrity for some initiative, which is great if you're dumping dex for full plate.
Maybe even mageslayer in there for some cool anti mage skills.
I read this as really a fighter with some magical ability rather than a mage with some fighting ability so why not try keeping strictly in the PH and go duelist Battlemaster 6/Draconic Sorceror 5 if you treat them as a dex based fighter rather than strength and can get the DM to give you bracers as a starting magic item your AC won't be too bad, youll have a fair amount of HP and you'll have the AoE spells you want (at least one of them) and can grow from there - look at what you'll be playing now not what you might become and see what looks cool and fits the idea right now.
Haste, fireball, lightning bolt, banishment these are all things id like our party to be able to there out. Not only for the group but the old pools of radiance games were my start into fantasy and fighter mage was my go to class. He is unlikely to have learnt many out of combat things, just what he had to to progress. Too practical, too busy looking for the next problem.
I think of this guy as the guy that sets the stage before wading onto the scene. Thoughtful so definitely an intelligence guy.
OOh and when I said he wasn't a wizard, that's a rp thing. He is a mercenary/soldier/tactician. He has a talent for magic (arcane levels) but he carries himself more like a soldier.
Warlock could work (flavoured as wizard taught) but without hexblade is fighter/bladelock that viable?
Without Hexblade, bladelock is ordinarily quite bad - you'd need shillelagh or magic stone to fix it, which is a pain in the neck. Fighter, i.e. Eldritch Knight, is viable, but the maximum caster level you'll reach is 7, i.e. maximum 1 banishment per day (and you get it at level 19). As a paladin, you'd get access to banishment at level 13 and eventually scale up to a maximum of 5/day at level 19 (including up-casting), when you'd be caster level 10, leaving room for a hexblade dip (warlock won't nerf your caster level like other spellcaster multiclassing will). As a warlock or bladesinger, you'd get access to banishment at level 9. Warlock scales up to 4 banishments per short rest, or allegedly 12 per day if your DM follows the DMG's guidelines. As a bladesinger, you'd scale up to 14 banishments per day, including up-casting and arcane recovery for an additional 2 L4 slots starting at level 15.
I get the feeling what you'd like most is a hexblade, a hexblade/paladin (a hexadin), a bladesinger, a bladesinger/eldritch knight (this nerfs your caster level progression - your eldritch knight levels change from level/3 rounded up to level/3 rounded down, meaning you have to dig through 2 deader-than-normal levels to reach a normal level as you level up e.k.; this build is not for the faint of heart), or a bladesinger/artificer (any artificer subclass except alchemist could be made to fit this, depending on your vision; plus, no caster level nerf as you level), so I'd pick from that menu. Recapping, since this is a wall of text:
Choose from:
Hexblade (this means you have a pet ghost)
Hexadin (caster level 10 at the end, and you probably have a pet pegasus)
Bladesinger (caster level 20 at the end)
Bladesinger Knight (this means you have extra feat access, and with the right level combination (bladesinger 8/eldritch knight 12 - caster level 12), you can stab someone 4 times, one of which is a booming blade)
Bladesinger Artillerist (this means you have a pocket rocket that either shoots knockback lasers, is a flamethrower, or emits a protective forcefield)
Bladesinger Armorer (this means you wear the fanciest studded leather anyone's ever seen)
Bladesinger Battlesmith (this means you have a pet robot)
Hexblood as racial option. Gives dabbling of spells and pseudo magical abilities. This includes the ability to cast hex, which is normally limited to being a warlock. Can cast disguise self too. You can cast those spells using your slots and w/e ability mod you prioritize with your stat distribution and class. Your creature type is FEY, which actually provides a bit of magical protection by making you an invalid target for some spells. Telepathic message gives a decent reusable one way messaging system. Remote viewing can be kind of like a limited scrying spell once per long rest. Darkvision to top it off.
Eldritch Knight with a focus on dexterity instead of strength. This improves initiative, allows the use of a longbow and extra attack, while allowing you to be formidable in close range if necessary by utilizing the shadowblade spell. This further frees up your cantrips for more utilities, like minor illusion, mage hand, or friends which goes well with disguise self. If you want toll the dead can be a damage option to work with war magic or Eldritch strike. Take fey step to round out your intelligence, give you access to misty step without taking up a precious spell known slot, and gift of alacrity for a 1st level spell. Gift of alacrity is a great spell that lasts all and is potentially cheap enough to cast on another teammate.
between the racial option and fey step, you get quite a bit more spell selection an Eldritch Knight wouldn’t normally have. The the first casts of each of those 4 spells being free also stretches the Eldritch knights more limited spell slots.
Fighter (Psi Warrior) 6/Wizard (Chronurgy) 5. Take Great Weapon Fighting style, GWM, and use a greatsword or maul. You can use Chronal Shift to get quasi-advantage on GWM attacks and cast Haste on yourself. You get + Int mod to initiative, and Gift of Alacrity for another +1d8, so you will almost always be at the top of the order. Once you gain another level in Psi Warrior, you also get telekinetic thrust. So you can Chronal Shift that as well to knock prone, setting up an action surge of multiple GWM attacks with adv. You don’t even need Warcaster because you have prof in Con saves and you’re using a 2H weapon. For added fun, if you’re rolling stats and don’t need the ASI, take Telepathic for the Int boost and psionic RP fun.
That’s a tough one. Cha is definitely a dump. And I could also see making Dex a dump over Wis. It depends somewhat on your game. If you make it to Fighter 10, you effectively become immune to Charm/Frighten so the bad Wis save isn’t the worst. On the other hand, you can take a hit to Dex because your Int and Gift will boost up your initiative. Either way, you need to prioritize Str and Int for your offense to shine.
TBH, Psi Warrior/Wizard is insanely strong but it's a tough build if you’re not rolling stats because it’s very MAD. Githyanki is also my recommended race, as it is 100% spot on both mechanically and flavor. (Don’t forget to trade your redundant weapon/armor profs for tons of tools!)
My own character is only a 2 level dip for War Magic because I want the Telekinetic Mastery capstone, but Chronurgy was a *very* close second. (Taking Fey touched next level at Fighter 8 to get Gift of Alacrity).
Nobody mentioned the Paladin class? Githyanki Paladin seems like the perfect "Gish" to me, unless I'm missing something obvious. Scores would need to be fixed. You couldn't build a decent one with a 15, two 14s, a 12 and two 8s, but whatever method you do use, you should be able to get what you need.
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A gish basically. I'm wanting some suggested builds. In reentering a campaign at level 11, things look like they will proceed to the end game and my thinking thus far on a build is this.
1. He isn't a wizard. He has some strong talent and in my head that leads to level 5 spells maybe 6. Which means he will end up being between (L9 and 12). On entering the game in thinking at least 5 levels in wizard already.
2.I'm not opposed to skirmishing, but its not my (player) instinct. When I'm in the fray I struggle to even consider leaving it.
3. The party has a barbarian, trickster rogue, archer ranger, and a shepherd druid who loves to heal.
4. Battlemaster, psi warrior, rune knight and even champion all have potential I think although im not opposed to other classes or subclasses.
5. I think I want the tough feat in play and warcaster although again I'm not opposed to operating without.
So please fire away your thoughts.
If you want to be a tanky caster, I recommend Bladesinger Wizard. Being able to attack and cast a cantrip in the same action is a lot of fun. On top of that, getting +INT to AC is pretty sweet.
The other obvious gish option is Hexblade Warlock. However, if you want to focus on martial combat with only a taste of magic, I'd recommend considering Eldritch Knight, especially if you plan to take any levels of Wizard.
What are your other considerations? What makes sense for the character narratively?
That's the thing it's new, my thoughts are still percolating. He is a mercenary I think. His magical talent having seen a sudden increase in power. I dont think he is lithe, so possibly not particularly dexterous but he is smart, and protective (I keep getting this image of him using telekinetic feat to remove people away from danger...not a given).
If I do a 12 wiz 8 other split I think id go for a more dex like build and lean into using that sixth level slot for tashas otherworldly disguise or tensors transformation.
I'm not opposed to a warlock but ive done hexblade so it would have to be something different as a build and I've only ever considered hexblade as a martial build. And I'm convinced he has at least 3 levels in a martial background.
I'm currently playing a gish that I'm having a lot of fun with, a Swords Bard/Swashbuckler/Hexblade. Sure it looks like a skirmisher, but usually I'm using that mobility to waltz past the front line and take out the back line casters.
Alternately have you considered doing a Paladin/Warlock multiclass? Paladin smite spells are very gishy, right? Conquest + Undead looks very sexy with all the ways to cause fear and then use the fear to lock them down and apply constant psychic damage. Vengeance + Hexblade can do some nasty single target crit fishing
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
The first thing to answer is whether you want to punch with Strength/Dexterity (so probably an Eldritch Knight or Bladesinger Wizard, since Arcane Trickster is taken, and I doubt you want to be a second druid for Moon Druid shenanigans) or your mental stat. Then for your mental stat, pick one:
Bear in mind, since you listed War Caster, the feat does three things:
So your build has to be interested those things without fixing too many of them itself for the feat to be warranted.
Haste, fireball, lightning bolt, banishment these are all things id like our party to be able to there out. Not only for the group but the old pools of radiance games were my start into fantasy and fighter mage was my go to class. He is unlikely to have learnt many out of combat things, just what he had to to progress. Too practical, too busy looking for the next problem.
I think of this guy as the guy that sets the stage before wading onto the scene. Thoughtful so definitely an intelligence guy.
OOh and when I said he wasn't a wizard, that's a rp thing. He is a mercenary/soldier/tactician. He has a talent for magic (arcane levels) but he carries himself more like a soldier.
Warlock could work (flavoured as wizard taught) but without hexblade is fighter/bladelock that viable?
Honestly, I would still recommend just going with Bladesinger as a pure caster. There are plenty of martial spells like Steel Wind Strike that you'll enjoy using at higher levels and you'll have the higher level spell slots to up cast your signature spells, such as Fireball.
If you need to multiclass, you might consider dipping into other full caster classes, like the College of Sword Bard, or War Domain Cleric to pick up some extra features and versatility without sacrificing arcane power.
As you start facing higher CR monsters, you'll want your magic to scale in potency accordingly.
I see three primary routes personally:
1. Eldritch Knight - A fighter with battle spells and a flaming sword.
2. Bladesinger - A wizard wearing leather armor and some competence with a finesse weapon.
3. Multiclass - A wizard with armor and a sword. (Multiclassing is highly risky, don’t recommend unless you absolutely need it.)
I personally like the Eldritch Knight.
Tempest cleric. Heavy armor, martial weapons, offensive powers and spells. Makes good use of warcaster. And some extra healing, in case the Druid goes down.
Won’t get you fireball but there’s some good AoE spells, and you do get banishment.
Why not just an eldritch knight all the way? Could still use telekinetic if you wanted, fighters get extra asi's too. More attacks, think 3 at level 11 already?
Could throw in fey touched for misty step and perhaps either hex/hunters mark for more damage or just gift of alacrity for some initiative, which is great if you're dumping dex for full plate.
Maybe even mageslayer in there for some cool anti mage skills.
I read this and thought "rune knight" before I saw you listed it as an option, so I'm gonna suggest that.
I read this as really a fighter with some magical ability rather than a mage with some fighting ability so why not try keeping strictly in the PH and go duelist Battlemaster 6/Draconic Sorceror 5 if you treat them as a dex based fighter rather than strength and can get the DM to give you bracers as a starting magic item your AC won't be too bad, youll have a fair amount of HP and you'll have the AoE spells you want (at least one of them) and can grow from there - look at what you'll be playing now not what you might become and see what looks cool and fits the idea right now.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Without Hexblade, bladelock is ordinarily quite bad - you'd need shillelagh or magic stone to fix it, which is a pain in the neck. Fighter, i.e. Eldritch Knight, is viable, but the maximum caster level you'll reach is 7, i.e. maximum 1 banishment per day (and you get it at level 19). As a paladin, you'd get access to banishment at level 13 and eventually scale up to a maximum of 5/day at level 19 (including up-casting), when you'd be caster level 10, leaving room for a hexblade dip (warlock won't nerf your caster level like other spellcaster multiclassing will). As a warlock or bladesinger, you'd get access to banishment at level 9. Warlock scales up to 4 banishments per short rest, or allegedly 12 per day if your DM follows the DMG's guidelines. As a bladesinger, you'd scale up to 14 banishments per day, including up-casting and arcane recovery for an additional 2 L4 slots starting at level 15.
I get the feeling what you'd like most is a hexblade, a hexblade/paladin (a hexadin), a bladesinger, a bladesinger/eldritch knight (this nerfs your caster level progression - your eldritch knight levels change from level/3 rounded up to level/3 rounded down, meaning you have to dig through 2 deader-than-normal levels to reach a normal level as you level up e.k.; this build is not for the faint of heart), or a bladesinger/artificer (any artificer subclass except alchemist could be made to fit this, depending on your vision; plus, no caster level nerf as you level), so I'd pick from that menu. Recapping, since this is a wall of text:
Choose from:
Hexblood as racial option. Gives dabbling of spells and pseudo magical abilities. This includes the ability to cast hex, which is normally limited to being a warlock. Can cast disguise self too. You can cast those spells using your slots and w/e ability mod you prioritize with your stat distribution and class. Your creature type is FEY, which actually provides a bit of magical protection by making you an invalid target for some spells. Telepathic message gives a decent reusable one way messaging system. Remote viewing can be kind of like a limited scrying spell once per long rest. Darkvision to top it off.
Eldritch Knight with a focus on dexterity instead of strength. This improves initiative, allows the use of a longbow and extra attack, while allowing you to be formidable in close range if necessary by utilizing the shadowblade spell. This further frees up your cantrips for more utilities, like minor illusion, mage hand, or friends which goes well with disguise self. If you want toll the dead can be a damage option to work with war magic or Eldritch strike. Take fey step to round out your intelligence, give you access to misty step without taking up a precious spell known slot, and gift of alacrity for a 1st level spell. Gift of alacrity is a great spell that lasts all and is potentially cheap enough to cast on another teammate.
between the racial option and fey step, you get quite a bit more spell selection an Eldritch Knight wouldn’t normally have. The the first casts of each of those 4 spells being free also stretches the Eldritch knights more limited spell slots.
Fighter (Psi Warrior) 6/Wizard (Chronurgy) 5. Take Great Weapon Fighting style, GWM, and use a greatsword or maul. You can use Chronal Shift to get quasi-advantage on GWM attacks and cast Haste on yourself. You get + Int mod to initiative, and Gift of Alacrity for another +1d8, so you will almost always be at the top of the order. Once you gain another level in Psi Warrior, you also get telekinetic thrust. So you can Chronal Shift that as well to knock prone, setting up an action surge of multiple GWM attacks with adv. You don’t even need Warcaster because you have prof in Con saves and you’re using a 2H weapon. For added fun, if you’re rolling stats and don’t need the ASI, take Telepathic for the Int boost and psionic RP fun.
That sounds interesting. Point by, how would you stat. 15/12/14/14/8/8?
Str (14 +2) 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int (15 + 1) 16
Wis 8
Cha 8
That’s a tough one. Cha is definitely a dump. And I could also see making Dex a dump over Wis. It depends somewhat on your game. If you make it to Fighter 10, you effectively become immune to Charm/Frighten so the bad Wis save isn’t the worst. On the other hand, you can take a hit to Dex because your Int and Gift will boost up your initiative. Either way, you need to prioritize Str and Int for your offense to shine.
TBH, Psi Warrior/Wizard is insanely strong but it's a tough build if you’re not rolling stats because it’s very MAD. Githyanki is also my recommended race, as it is 100% spot on both mechanically and flavor. (Don’t forget to trade your redundant weapon/armor profs for tons of tools!)
My own character is only a 2 level dip for War Magic because I want the Telekinetic Mastery capstone, but Chronurgy was a *very* close second. (Taking Fey touched next level at Fighter 8 to get Gift of Alacrity).
Nobody mentioned the Paladin class? Githyanki Paladin seems like the perfect "Gish" to me, unless I'm missing something obvious. Scores would need to be fixed. You couldn't build a decent one with a 15, two 14s, a 12 and two 8s, but whatever method you do use, you should be able to get what you need.
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