Giving the rogue extra attacks off their own turn is a great way to pump up the party's damage output in a round.
Is the flaw / hurdle in this thinking that it will still cost the rogue their reaction, which may leave them more vulnerable to damage if they can't there after use Uncanny Dodge?
Like, an off turn sneak attack is going to scale ridiculously well for damage, especially for an arcane trickster with the warcaster feat.
The novelty of this thought for me is I've never had a group where characters were built around party synergy, it was always more individuals with "optimized" self focused builds. This way about thinking of the rogue might help the shift in mindset.
That is the trade off. A good build synergy would be to team up with characters that make the rogue more difficult to hit with attacks.
a rogue with the sentinel feat fighting next to a cavalier/ancestral guardian/armorer works well. The disadvantage for attacks targeting the rogue makes the rogue a difficult target to hit, and if an attack lands then the rogue and teammate may have reactions to reduce the damage. Enemy attacks the teammate they risk getting hit by a very reliable reaction attack with sneak damage.
Why would you think the Rogue can use sneak attack more than once per turn?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Why would you think the Rogue can use sneak attack more than once per turn?
Nobody's claiming they can use it more than once per turn, because they can't. What they can do is use it more than once per round. For example, if a Rogue runs up to a foe that's adjacent to an ally, uses their action to Attack, and hits, then they can use Sneak Attack. Later that round, if that foe provokes an Opportunity Attack by moving away, the Rogue can get Sneak Attack damage on a hit. Twice in one round, but no more than once in each turn.
This is a well-known way to get double the damage from a Rogue, which is why many tables like to pair Rogues with Battle Master's Commander's Strike, Order Cleric's Voice of Authority, and Bard's dissonant whispers.
I'm not super happy that they've decided to keep it in 2024, since it so directly competes with Uncanny Dodge and it will forever hold Rogues back because people will point to how powerful they could be with an optimized party composition as reasoning to not buff it.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Rogues do terrible damage if they are unable to get a sneak attack and less damage than most other martials if th3y only get one per round. Having to choose between a chance of a second sneak attack and keeping the reaction for uncanny dodge (or vice versa) makes the game interesting, spellcasters have exactly the same issue with things like shield, absorb elements and counterspell
Rogues do terrible damage if they are unable to get a sneak attack and less damage than most other martials if th3y only get one per round. Having to choose between a chance of a second sneak attack and keeping the reaction for uncanny dodge (or vice versa) makes the game interesting, spellcasters have exactly the same issue with things like shield, absorb elements and counterspell
Well, those spellcasters don't have those spells as their sole replacement for Extra Attack, do they? Rogues have to supersede their 5th level feature, which is supposed to be the most impactful level across all classes, just to deal decent damage. That's not good game design; features should synergize with one another, not be useless the moment you get them because of poorly thought-out action economy. And anyways, it also means every time a Rogue wants to deal damage, all the other players get pestered to play a Battle Master or Order Cleric because that specific synergy is what Rogues are apparently expected to have.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
.. if that foe provokes an Opportunity Attack by moving away, the Rogue can get Sneak Attack damage on a hit.
Do you have a source for this?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
.. if that foe provokes an Opportunity Attack by moving away, the Rogue can get Sneak Attack damage on a hit.
Do you have a source for this?
Sneak Attack
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
According to the feature, taking an Opportunity Attack allows you to deal your Sneak Attack damage if you use a finesse weapon and you have advantage/a foe within 5 feet.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
According to the feature, taking an Opportunity Attack allows you to deal your Sneak Attack damage if you use a finesse weapon and you have advantage/a foe within 5 feet.
There's no indication anywhere in this that you can do it, if you already sneak attacked once. I still say that's a straight fabrication, and counter to RAW.
So - do you have a source that in some way confirms you can sneak attack more than once pr. round?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Beginning at 1st level, you know how to strike subtly and exploit a foe’s distraction. Once per turn, you can deal an extra 1d6 damage to one creature you hit with an attack if you have advantage on the attack roll. The attack must use a finesse or a ranged weapon.
You don’t need advantage on the attack roll if another enemy of the target is within 5 feet of it, that enemy isn’t incapacitated, and you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll.
The amount of the extra damage increases as you gain levels in this class, as shown in the Sneak Attack column of the Rogue table.
According to the feature, taking an Opportunity Attack allows you to deal your Sneak Attack damage if you use a finesse weapon and you have advantage/a foe within 5 feet.
There's no indication anywhere in this that you can do it, if you already sneak attacked once. I still say that's a straight fabrication, and counter to RAW.
So - do you have a source that in some way confirms you can sneak attack more than once pr. round?
Sneak Attack gives you circumstances under which you do extra damage. It then provides the limitation that you can only deal that damage once per turn. If you deal that damage during your turn, you can no longer deal it during that turn. Once your turn ends, however, it is a different turn, and so the limitation that you can only deal damage once per turn no longer applies. You can then deal the damage again, by some method such as an Opportunity Attack. If you do so, you can no longer deal it during that turn, on account of the once per turn limitation.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
We can logically infer that, via the sneak attack text, you can use sneak attack outside of your turn as a reaction because you are not taking that reaction as part of your turn. A round is a series of turns in initiative, reactions are not part of your turn. Sneak attack may only be used once per turn as explicitly stated, but nowhere does it mention or include that means once per round anywhere. We do not need cited or explicitly stated text to come to this conclusion.
It is not counter to RAW. At its worst this is rules as interpreted via ommission of text. The text prohibiting sneak attack more than once per round simply does not exist.
I won't. That's sort of the point. But I will take a source, with thanks =)
Worth keeping in mind. I don't play rogue, but ... well, I have friends who do.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I know Crawford isn't considered a 'source' by some, but he's clarifying how to read the RAW. The confusion lies in 'turn' and 'round'. Once your turn ends, nothing prevents a rogue from applying sneak attack again during a round, other than the conditions. They would need an ability that allows them to apply it, Opportunity Attack, Riposte, etc.
Heheheh that's why I always google Sage Advice and my question before I go to the wall in a forum. Reaction sneak is why I like to work a whip into my rogue builds.
"See that group of Mastermind rogues over there?"
"Yeah."
"Don't mess with em they all give each other extra sneak attacks. Big Brain Gang is literally twice as dangerous as the other gangs."
Plus this has been mentioned in UA videos for the initial rogue release and the survey results I believe. So you have video confirmation from WotC themselves
I appreciate the reply, but it feels like you've assumed I understand way more than I do.
Rogue is a class in the PHB, what /why / how is it being released in UA? How is this pertinent?
Sorry. I was replying to those who were asking where it said rogues can sneak attack more than once per turn.
In the Unearthed Arcana playtest going on now for the upcoming release of the revised PHB. DMG, MM in 2024 they changed the rogues sneak attack to only be on their turn and not once per turn (meaning you can sneak attack on someone else’s turn in the same round if you meet the requirements)
In a video about playtest survey results they stated that the responses were overwhelmingly negative with the change and people like the tactical aspects of using it on any turn, like on an Opportunity Attack. So they changed the wording back specifically so that rogues could sneak attack once per turn (OA sneak attacks are eligible, or any other method that gives the rogue an attack, like the battle masters Commanders Strike maneuver)
The party's rogue is a great resource.
Giving the rogue extra attacks off their own turn is a great way to pump up the party's damage output in a round.
Is the flaw / hurdle in this thinking that it will still cost the rogue their reaction, which may leave them more vulnerable to damage if they can't there after use Uncanny Dodge?
Like, an off turn sneak attack is going to scale ridiculously well for damage, especially for an arcane trickster with the warcaster feat.
Booming blade scaling damage + sneak attack damage + weapon damage.
The novelty of this thought for me is I've never had a group where characters were built around party synergy, it was always more individuals with "optimized" self focused builds. This way about thinking of the rogue might help the shift in mindset.
That is the trade off. A good build synergy would be to team up with characters that make the rogue more difficult to hit with attacks.
a rogue with the sentinel feat fighting next to a cavalier/ancestral guardian/armorer works well. The disadvantage for attacks targeting the rogue makes the rogue a difficult target to hit, and if an attack lands then the rogue and teammate may have reactions to reduce the damage. Enemy attacks the teammate they risk getting hit by a very reliable reaction attack with sneak damage.
Why would you think the Rogue can use sneak attack more than once per turn?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Nobody's claiming they can use it more than once per turn, because they can't. What they can do is use it more than once per round. For example, if a Rogue runs up to a foe that's adjacent to an ally, uses their action to Attack, and hits, then they can use Sneak Attack. Later that round, if that foe provokes an Opportunity Attack by moving away, the Rogue can get Sneak Attack damage on a hit. Twice in one round, but no more than once in each turn.
This is a well-known way to get double the damage from a Rogue, which is why many tables like to pair Rogues with Battle Master's Commander's Strike, Order Cleric's Voice of Authority, and Bard's dissonant whispers.
I'm not super happy that they've decided to keep it in 2024, since it so directly competes with Uncanny Dodge and it will forever hold Rogues back because people will point to how powerful they could be with an optimized party composition as reasoning to not buff it.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Rogues do terrible damage if they are unable to get a sneak attack and less damage than most other martials if th3y only get one per round. Having to choose between a chance of a second sneak attack and keeping the reaction for uncanny dodge (or vice versa) makes the game interesting, spellcasters have exactly the same issue with things like shield, absorb elements and counterspell
Well, those spellcasters don't have those spells as their sole replacement for Extra Attack, do they? Rogues have to supersede their 5th level feature, which is supposed to be the most impactful level across all classes, just to deal decent damage. That's not good game design; features should synergize with one another, not be useless the moment you get them because of poorly thought-out action economy. And anyways, it also means every time a Rogue wants to deal damage, all the other players get pestered to play a Battle Master or Order Cleric because that specific synergy is what Rogues are apparently expected to have.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Do you have a source for this?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
According to the feature, taking an Opportunity Attack allows you to deal your Sneak Attack damage if you use a finesse weapon and you have advantage/a foe within 5 feet.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
There's no indication anywhere in this that you can do it, if you already sneak attacked once. I still say that's a straight fabrication, and counter to RAW.
So - do you have a source that in some way confirms you can sneak attack more than once pr. round?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Sneak Attack gives you circumstances under which you do extra damage. It then provides the limitation that you can only deal that damage once per turn. If you deal that damage during your turn, you can no longer deal it during that turn. Once your turn ends, however, it is a different turn, and so the limitation that you can only deal damage once per turn no longer applies. You can then deal the damage again, by some method such as an Opportunity Attack. If you do so, you can no longer deal it during that turn, on account of the once per turn limitation.
But don't take my word for it.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
We can logically infer that, via the sneak attack text, you can use sneak attack outside of your turn as a reaction because you are not taking that reaction as part of your turn. A round is a series of turns in initiative, reactions are not part of your turn. Sneak attack may only be used once per turn as explicitly stated, but nowhere does it mention or include that means once per round anywhere. We do not need cited or explicitly stated text to come to this conclusion.
It is not counter to RAW. At its worst this is rules as interpreted via ommission of text. The text prohibiting sneak attack more than once per round simply does not exist.
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I won't. That's sort of the point. But I will take a source, with thanks =)
Worth keeping in mind. I don't play rogue, but ... well, I have friends who do.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/sneak-once-per-turn/
I know Crawford isn't considered a 'source' by some, but he's clarifying how to read the RAW. The confusion lies in 'turn' and 'round'. Once your turn ends, nothing prevents a rogue from applying sneak attack again during a round, other than the conditions. They would need an ability that allows them to apply it, Opportunity Attack, Riposte, etc.
Heheheh that's why I always google Sage Advice and my question before I go to the wall in a forum. Reaction sneak is why I like to work a whip into my rogue builds.
"See that group of Mastermind rogues over there?"
"Yeah."
"Don't mess with em they all give each other extra sneak attacks. Big Brain Gang is literally twice as dangerous as the other gangs."
Plus this has been mentioned in UA videos for the initial rogue release and the survey results I believe. So you have video confirmation from WotC themselves
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
I appreciate the reply, but it feels like you've assumed I understand way more than I do.
Rogue is a class in the PHB, what /why / how is it being released in UA? How is this pertinent?
Sorry. I was replying to those who were asking where it said rogues can sneak attack more than once per turn.
In the Unearthed Arcana playtest going on now for the upcoming release of the revised PHB. DMG, MM in 2024 they changed the rogues sneak attack to only be on their turn and not once per turn (meaning you can sneak attack on someone else’s turn in the same round if you meet the requirements)
In a video about playtest survey results they stated that the responses were overwhelmingly negative with the change and people like the tactical aspects of using it on any turn, like on an Opportunity Attack. So they changed the wording back specifically so that rogues could sneak attack once per turn (OA sneak attacks are eligible, or any other method that gives the rogue an attack, like the battle masters Commanders Strike maneuver)
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?